This has got to be the most underrated MMO ever...why?

[Genesis.5169]

8 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

But how many of those players come to the forums? The vast majority of players of any MMO never come to the forums and people who do come to the forums in large part come to complain about something and not to praise something. So really, when you come to the forums you still don't have a fair reflection of said community and equally there are pvp'ers and raiders that are very condescending to OW/casual players on the forums. And as a community they do count because the vast majority of players do OW content and are mostly casual players. These players keep the game alive, whether you like it or not.

I'm speaking from ingame experience and forums i play all game modes and have received that hate i generally show my badge from pvp and my LNHB title or a raiding title depends on my character im playing and i have received hate just for existing, the raiding community is much worse then the OW community by far tho but both are unwelcoming in unique ways for a game with no vertical progression and meaningless items it just hits different in the game.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Additional info

[kharmin.7683]

8 hours ago, psyt.9415 said:

 

 

Have  some houses right in the open world and cities that can be  captured by guilds I think it would build more interest if it was just integrated right into the open world with hot spots with wars happening in the world over various forts and stuff itself.  Just have it able to be flagged on or off like New World. This way people feel like the world is more alive and can see guilds having actual guild wars. Makes it feel more alive in the world and when you see people calling out offensives and defenses in the chat it gets people more involved that might not normally bother with it. Should be able to make a farm plot in the open world, make trade ships, fishing ships, run trade routes and caravans etc between ports etc, allow pirating.

 

 

 

 

Isn't this WvW?

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I'm speaking from ingame experience and forums i play all game modes and have received that hate i generally show my badge from pvp and my LNHB title or a raiding title depends on my character im playing and i have received hate just for existing, the raiding community is much worse then the OW community by far tho but both are unwelcoming in unique ways for a game with no vertical progression and meaningless items it just hits different in the game.

Well, in game I've got quite the opposite experience. I never see anyone commenting at all on pvp titles in ow content. I do see comments complaining about casual players a lot for not pulling their weight in world boss fights though. So what do these two different experiences mean in the total?

As a casual player I wouldn't even know what badges from pvp are or this LNHB title (I had to look it up) or raiding titles. It makes me wonder how many negative comments you got from people who actually do pvp and raid or fractals that just happen to be in OW....which makes them part of the pvp or raid communities as well.

You see a lot of people play multiple parts of the game and you can't separate them by communities therefore. I mean if someone is also part of the pvp community for example but they also spend a fair amount of time in OW are they then part of the OW community or does the problem stem from the fact that they are also part of the pvp community?

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Dami.5046 said:

Look, i get there is progression in the game itself.  I wasn't taking about what the game offers me in terms of achievements and the what not.

I'm used to playing games that mean i have to work for my character to be geared better, not just buy a few bits of the broker and done and certainly not get flamed because I decided to work on Legendaries, because experience in 'other' games make be believe i should always go for the better stuff regardless. 

I have my aims in the game, and tbh *IF* they decided to raise the level i would be all over that. It's unpopular and won't happen so there's not point talking much about it.

This game fails in my opinion by trying to 'please every one all of the time' and that includes making it stupid easy to gear up. 

But it is what it is, i'm doing my purples here and scratching my character progression itch how i see fit else where.

 

Well yes, that's my point. The entire MMO industry failed by making it about gearing up. As long as people think that's what games need to be about, the problems that that entails will persist. Killing yourself to get the biggest and the best only to have that effort complete negated the next time an expansion comes out, is ridiculous to me.  I'd rather get better than have my gear get better. In those other games, you get more powerful by outleveling early stuff. There's a little power creep in this game, but nothing like you have in other games.

The the real issue is that it's still only an illusion of progress since everything is progressing with you.  If you get a 10% raise but move to a place that's 20% more expensive to live, for all practical purposes you have less money, even though the number is higher. The illusion of progress is what those games are selling.  That's not how it works in a skill based game.

[Kevvyfitz.7942]

As someone coming to this game after a few years away, and after playing New World, I cannot agree more with the OP. It's an incredibly high fantasy game.

Central Tyria is absolutely amazing. Shiverpeaks, Ascalon, Kryta, the Tarnished Coast, the zones feel real. Kessex Hills and Queensdale feel and look significantly different despite being in Kryta, and that is something New World missed. The argument was made that it's "an island covered with forest, of course everything will look the same!" But look at this game, this game shows you can create different looking zones despite them sharing the same ecology, climate and geology!

The races are so well thought out, and their integration with one another and the world deserves to be appreciated and applauded. Even the non playable races, the skritt, the hylek, the tengu, the quaggan, the centaurs, seeing their impact on Tyria and that some of the races are friendly with them while others are at odds. It really adds to the experience. Knowing my sylvari has a different view and outlook on the skritt as opposed to my human, this is what's missing in RPG's. New World doesn't have any of this. And I like that my character(s) are voiced, it really lends to the roleplay.

The battle system is really enjoyable! I've taken a necro to 80 and am now working on unlocking my Reaper skills and not once did I feel like it was a drag or burned out. The class felt fluid, and I loved exploring the world, participating in the events that popped up. And there's so much content! I haven't really touched dungeons, fractals or strikes as of yet!

ANet really should make a marketing push for this game a month after Endwalker, maybe a Twitch Drops Campaign. They need to advertise it more, it's very similar to New World but much, much better. And it deserves much more recognition. I only came back because someone in New World mentioned GW2 in chat

Edited October 11, 2021 by Kevvyfitz.7942

[SEED.9051]

Its because 99% of the games playerbase is super casual and fragile. From some of the threads I've seen on these forums,  a lot of the community wants a toggle so they never have to see another player running around (in some compacity). 

 

When it comes down to it, the game just doesn't feel like a MMO. Very little progression, all DLC is sigleplayer story-driven content (seriously, story BS in a MMO), all the cool sh*t is bought with a CC instead of earned via drops from raids/dungeons, and the game world is a squared box segmented load screen simulator. Pretty much QoL on top of QoL with no sense of achievement. Its a MMO and needs to have slight annoyances of living in a world to make it feel like....living in a fantasy world. What we got rn is just a game.

 

Not to mention a P2W cash shop that sells in-game currency.... yeah, not cool.

[Klowdy.3126]

15 minutes ago, SEED.9051 said:

Its because 99% of the games playerbase is super casual and fragile. From some of the threads I've seen on these forums,  a lot of the community wants a toggle so they never have to see another player running around (in some compacity). 

 

When it comes down to it, the game just doesn't feel like a MMO. Very little progression, all DLC is sigleplayer story-driven content (seriously, story BS in a MMO), all the cool sh*t is bought with a CC instead of earned via drops from raids/dungeons, and the game world is a squared box segmented load screen simulator. Pretty much QoL on top of QoL with no sense of achievement. Its a MMO and needs to have slight annoyances of living in a world to make it feel like....living in a fantasy world. What we got rn is just a game.

 

Not to mention a P2W cash shop that sells in-game currency.... yeah, not cool.

If there is somewhere to buy legendary, or ascended gear for gold, I'd love to know. I have a few stat sets I'm wanting still, but would love to be able to just purchase it with gold. What vendors/zones are these?

[SEED.9051]

1 minute ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

If there is somewhere to buy legendary, or ascended gear for gold, I'd love to know. I have a few stat sets I'm wanting still, but would love to be able to just purchase it with gold. What vendors/zones are these?

I'm sure some legendary weapons are sold on the TP, so best look there for BiS. Otherwise, just purchase the gold and buy the majority of needed materials to craft the armor you're looking for! Glad I could help!!

[Klowdy.3126]

14 minutes ago, SEED.9051 said:

I'm sure some legendary weapons are sold on the TP, so best look there for BiS. Otherwise, just purchase the gold and buy the majority of needed materials to craft the armor you're looking for! Glad I could help!!

It's all just a matter of buying materials for the gear? I didn't realize it was so easy. I don't care about the skins so much, I just like the stat swapping, because i like to mess around with random builds. Gonna have to look into the legendary gear for gold. 

[SEED.9051]

9 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

It's all just a matter of buying materials for the gear? I didn't realize it was so easy. I don't care about the skins so much, I just like the stat swapping, because i like to mess around with random builds. Gonna have to look into the legendary gear for gold. 

Well now you know! I speak from experience as I know a guy who "exploits" multiple free accounts that feed into his main. He uses his CC and can have months worth of grinding (for people that play the game anyway....) eliminated in just a few minutes!! Crazy stuff, dude.

He's pretty much on a different playing field vs those that take the time to play the game without IRL influence.

 

e: legendary armor is different as it cant be bought on the TP. You can buy all you need for ascended tho which has the same stats! Takes minutes to acquire all you need! Leggy armor requires playing the game which is why this playerbase doesn't have it (maybe less than 1%)  

Edited October 12, 2021 by SEED.9051

[Klowdy.3126]

Well, after actually looking into it, turns out the average person isn't going to spend $200 on a legendary weapon, and there isn't a single set of legendary gear that doesn't force gameplay. I think the P2W aspect has been greatly exaggerated, especially since it seems like legendary gear is a convenience, and not more powerful than the gear I already have. Even if someone did spend $1,000 on making legendary gear, they couldn't do it without some form of gameplay. Also, paying millions of dollars into this game can never give an advantage of any kind over someone that spends the time in game. 

[SEED.9051]

6 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Well, after actually looking into it, turns out the average person isn't going to spend $200 on a legendary weapon, and there isn't a single set of legendary gear that doesn't force gameplay. I think the P2W aspect has been greatly exaggerated, especially since it seems like legendary gear is a convenience, and not more powerful than the gear I already have. Even if someone did spend $1,000 on making legendary gear, they couldn't do it without some form of gameplay. Also, paying millions of dollars into this game can never give an advantage of any kind over someone that spends the time in game. 

The average person doesn't even make it to level cap, so I don't think those people are who anet is trying to hook into buying BiS weapons off the TP.

 

And for anets version of an MMO their endgame is fashion wars.... which all the cool stuff (for that average player) cant be realistically had unless they use that CC

Edited October 12, 2021 by SEED.9051

[firedragon.8953]

7 minutes ago, SEED.9051 said:

He's pretty much on a different playing field vs those that take the time to play the game without IRL influence.

But like how? In WvW, maybe? Surely not sPVP because gear doesn't matter. In PvE, it also really doesn't matter since everything is cooperative. If anything, "thanks dude for spending money so we finish this fractal or whatever faster." 

In my opinion GW2 is the best MMO in terms of grind/IRL influence affecting any kind of competition. Generally the best players are the players that understand and know how to play their class....which requires the player to...ya know...play.

I have exactly zero legendaries, and I feel at a zero disadvantage in WvW, sPvP, and of course PvE. A few easily farmable ascended trinkets let's me run fractals no problem, too.

 

55 minutes ago, SEED.9051 said:

all DLC is sigleplayer story-driven content (seriously, story BS in a MMO)

This is a big reason I play GW2. Only 2 MMOs have really put emphasis on story, that's GW2 and FFXIV. They also seem like the most popular and long lasting, whereas mindless "grind simulators" generally come and go with each new season. People who don't like story-driven MMOs have a long list of MMOs to choose from. Granted, I don't think you even need to play story content to enjoy GW2. You could literally just log in for a few hours a week and play PvP 100% of the time. 

Not saying GW2 doesn't have issues. I just think these two arguments you make are pretty weak and don't really reflect the game accurately.

[Klowdy.3126]

Just now, SEED.9051 said:

The average person doesn't even make it to level cap, so I don't think those people are who anet is trying to hook into buying BiS weapons off the TP.

That doesn't sound right. Can you post where it says the average player doesn't hit level cap? Also, if the average person doesn't buy gold, it doesn't seem like the P2W aspect is as bad you you made it seem. 

[SEED.9051]

13 minutes ago, firedragon.8953 said:

They also seem like the most popular and long lasting, whereas mindless "grind simulators" generally come and go

WoW is the most successful MMO of all time, and was greatly grind dependent with no real story (maybe modern WoW is more story focused but it's greatly declined gameplay wise since). Asian markets are also heavy invested in grindy MMOs with little focus on story, I believe the first Lineage game is still the most popular in that area. New World is a new grindy MMO with more of an excuse than a story and has been the most played game on Steam since it launched. Time will tell if it holds up.

 

e: I just want to add that there's nothing wrong if you like more of a sigleplayer game with other people running around, I was just stating I dont believe that makes for a good MMO.

 

13 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

That doesn't sound right. Can you post where it says the average player doesn't hit level cap? Also, if the average person doesn't buy gold, it doesn't seem like the P2W aspect is as bad you you made it seem. 

MMOs in general, with the millions that try them, have a poor retention rate. Very few of those players hit cap in MMOs; Gw2 is no exception. Any P2W is bad. Also, I never mentioned how many players do or do not buy gold, so idk what you're reading.

Edited October 12, 2021 by SEED.9051

[firedragon.8953]

Just now, SEED.9051 said:

WoW is the most successful MMO of all time, and was greatly grind dependent with no real story (maybe modern WoW is more story focused but it's greatly declined gameplay wise since). Asian markets are also heavy invested in grindy MMOs with little focus on story, I believe the first Lineage game is still the most popular in that area. New World is a new grindy MMO with more of an excuse than a story and has been the most played game on Steam since it launched. Time will tell if it holds up.

You literally agreed with me.

There are tons of other grind MMOs. Why should GW2 also be a grind MMO. Doesn't make sense. GW2 always strived to be something different, and the people that play this game often choose it for that very reason.
If you look at the top 10 MMOs, 2-3 of them are story based (including GW2), the others usually have story, but it is not the focus. The other 100 or so next popular MMOs are pretty much your average "Asian grindcore" or super buggy messes. Even WoW got a lot of flack do to it's worsening story...so, I'd wager retention in a virtual world hinges both on lore/story and community. Otherwise, why chose to inhabit that world?

9 years of GW2. Guess, you're right. Time will tell...

[SEED.9051]

3 minutes ago, firedragon.8953 said:

You literally agreed with me.

There are tons of other grind MMOs. Why should GW2 also be a grind MMO. Doesn't make sense. GW2 always strived to be something different, and the people that play this game often choose it for that very reason.
If you look at the top 10 MMOs, 2-3 of them are story based (including GW2), the others usually have story, but it is not the focus. The other 100 or so next popular MMOs are pretty much your average "Asian grindcore" or super buggy messes. Even WoW got a lot of flack do to it's worsening story...so, I'd wager retention in a virtual world hinges both on lore/story and community. Otherwise, why chose to inhabit that world?

9 years of GW2. Guess, you're right. Time will tell...

We are on a thread asking why Gw2 is perceived as underrated; that's why I mention Gw2 being different. IMO, that's the reason it isn't more popular.

 

Also, I believe most successful MMOs derive from the sense of living in that fantasy world. Being a part of the community, as you said, I do not believe a story focus is necessary to achieve that.

Edited October 12, 2021 by SEED.9051

[Klowdy.3126]

Just now, SEED.9051 said:

WoW is the most successful MMO of all time, and was greatly grind dependent with no real story (maybe modern WoW is more story focused but it's greatly declined gameplay wise since). Asian markets are also heavy invested in grindy MMOs with little focus on story, I believe the first Lineage game is still the most popular in that area. New World is a new grindy MMO with more of an excuse than a story and has been the most played game on Steam since it launched. Time will tell if it holds up.

 

MMOs in general, with the millions that try them, have a poor retention rate. Very few of those players hit cap in MMOs; Gw2 is no exception. Any P2W is bad.

If the people aren't playing to max level, they aren't really players of that game. You can't confuse the average player, with the average GW2 player. I don't care about the people that try the free trial for a day, and never come back. They have absolutely no bearing on any P2W that would even be a part of this game, so bringing them up is pointless. I'd also like to point out that spending money only let's people catch up faster, and gives absolutely no advantage over people that actually play this game. 

 

The average player isn't spending money (because apparently they play the game so little they don't hit 80), and those that are don't have an advantage over me. Does it mean I win more if I beat someone that paid for their gear? When I beat people in ascended gear, while I'm in my exotics, can it still be considered P2W, since they paid and lost? You are greatly exaggerating all of your point, so much so that it feels like my 9 y/o is trying to prove a point. 

[SEED.9051]

Just now, Klowdy.3126 said:

If the people aren't playing to max level, they aren't really players of that game. You can't confuse the average player, with the average GW2 player. I don't care about the people that try the free trial for a day, and never come back. They have absolutely no bearing on any P2W that would even be a part of this game, so bringing them up is pointless. I'd also like to point out that spending money only let's people catch up faster, and gives absolutely no advantage over people that actually play this game. 

 

The average player isn't spending money (because apparently they play the game so little they don't hit 80), and those that are don't have an advantage over me. Does it mean I win more if I beat someone that paid for their gear? When I beat people in ascended gear, while I'm in my exotics, can it still be considered P2W, since they paid and lost? You are greatly exaggerating all of your point, so much so that it feels like my 9 y/o is trying to prove a point. 

I mean anets version of a MMO is playing dress up.... so you win if I don't wanna swipe my CC. You are only thinking of the old definition of P2W. It's 2021, and you have to open your mind to what others perceive as unfair.

[firedragon.8953]

Just now, SEED.9051 said:

We are on a thread asking why Gw2 is perceived as underrated; that's why I mention Gw2 being different. IMO, that's the reason it isn't more popular.

I understand, and I disagree with you. Still do. As I said, I don't think they reflect the game accurately. You are of course free to believe those are the reasons though, just as I am free not to. 

Anyway, you have different expectations for a game, and GW2 doesn't meet those expectations. Even if GW2 isn't the most popular, I find it still feels the most "alive" due to the megaserver system and focus on open world content. I've played MMOs boasting higher player counts that feel "empty" except for a bunch of people standing around in hubs.

GW2 likely suffered (still suffers) from the slow content release schedule and it's experiment with throw-away-content LWS1. That made a lot of people leave, and well...marketing never was good enough to bring them back. Many people still think GW2 is the same game it was 8-9 years ago. Also, yes, this game is unlikely able to keep the interest of players who can play a game for 40+ hours a week, unless you're a crazy competitive mode player. You'd burn through nearly everything in PvE in a year or two. But that is a lot of hours...

[SEED.9051]

1 minute ago, firedragon.8953 said:

I understand, and I disagree with you. Still do. As I said, I don't think they reflect the game accurately. You are of course free to believe those are the reasons though, just as I am free not to. 

Anyway, you have different expectations for a game, and GW2 doesn't meet those expectations. Even if GW2 isn't the most popular, I find it still feels the most "alive" due to the megaserver system and focus on open world content. I've played MMOs boasting higher player counts that feel "empty" except for a bunch of people standing around in hubs.

GW2 likely suffered (still suffers) from the slow content release schedule and it's experiment with throw-away-content LWS1. That made a lot of people leave, and well...marketing never was good enough to bring them back. Many people still think GW2 is the same game it was 8-9 years ago. Also, yes, this game is unlikely able to keep the interest of players who can play a game for 40+ hours a week, unless you're a crazy competitive mode player. You'd burn through nearly everything in PvE in a year or two. But that is a lot of hours...

I've been here since launch day and have the next xpac preordered (ultimate). While I do not believe this is a real MMO, that doesn't keep me from enjoying it for what it is.... 

[Klowdy.3126]

40 minutes ago, SEED.9051 said:

I mean anets version of a MMO is playing dress up.... so you win if I don't wanna swipe my CC. You are only thinking of the old definition of P2W. It's 2021, and you have to open your mind to what others perceive as unfair.

Lol, no. P2W is an advantage given with money. It isn't paying for clothes. By that definition, elite specs are P2W, since on average, they do better than the core specs. Sure, you can have a core burn guardian, but FB is better, so P2W. What people think is unfair over the past decade has gotten more and more nitpicky. If things aren't exactly as people want, it's not fair. That doesn't make it correct. Lol, maybe you can explain this new advantage that doesn't include stats to me. People with ridiculous expectations shouldn't factor in. Are you implying cosmetics are in some way P2W?

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 10/11/2021 at 7:48 PM, SEED.9051 said:

I've been here since launch day and have the next xpac preordered (ultimate). While I do not believe this is a real MMO, that doesn't keep me from enjoying it for what it is.... 

While I don't agree with some other characterizations you've made (in particular needing to swipe cc for fashion - I haven't, mostly because I dislike outfits and find much cooler looks to put together from in-game skins), I fully agree that this game is best understood as a fairly significant departure from the standard MMO model.

The thing is, that departure is one of the absolute best things GW2 offers. Take, for instance, Tangled Depths. Back in the day you couldn't get into Dragon's Stand without succeeding the Chak Gerent event and blowing open the map exit to DS. That, to me, is classic sandbox MMORPG design - what players manage to do together significantly affects everyone's experience in the game world. If you can't organize a successful TD meta clear, nobody gets to progress into DS.

However, I don't think this is a good or sustainable model. As every single content release in every single MMO shows us, participation and interest naturally drops off over time. So unless devs perfectly scale so that group events are doable even with skeleton crews, you'll reach a point where an event designed for groups ends up blocks all players' progress. And what if you can't play during primetime for a critical mass of players? Just... give up on getting into DS?

So what we have is an alternate route into DS  that requires no group. Now anyone can progress forward without having their gameplay - their free time activity - not dictated by how well they can match the schedule of other players.

But ANet didn't take away the original method of getting into DS. Instead, they kept it, still allow players to enter DS after blowing open that map exit after the meta, and made the meta important enough to certain in-game goals that people still do it to this day. It's the best of both worlds - thanks to the continued existence of the post-meta map exit, you still see that the group activity had some pretty big significance to how the world works for you and the other players who succeeded. But if you're not lucky enough to (1) want to get into DS (2) specificially during a time when enough players are around to win the TD meta, you can still make progress with the alternate exit. It's this duality that makes GW2 work for me.

Edited October 13, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[Vayne.8563]

4 hours ago, SEED.9051 said:

Its because 99% of the games playerbase is super casual and fragile. From some of the threads I've seen on these forums,  a lot of the community wants a toggle so they never have to see another player running around (in some compacity). 

 

When it comes down to it, the game just doesn't feel like a MMO. Very little progression, all DLC is sigleplayer story-driven content (seriously, story BS in a MMO), all the cool sh*t is bought with a CC instead of earned via drops from raids/dungeons, and the game world is a squared box segmented load screen simulator. Pretty much QoL on top of QoL with no sense of achievement. Its a MMO and needs to have slight annoyances of living in a world to make it feel like....living in a fantasy world. What we got rn is just a game.

 

Not to mention a P2W cash shop that sells in-game currency.... yeah, not cool.

If you think this game is P2W, you don't know what P2W means.  I mean you can buy central tyrian legendaries in the cash shop, but they don't have higher stats than ascended weapons and for the vast bulk of the game you don't even need ascended weapons. SPvP, puts everyone on an even keel where people can't have higher stats than other people.

If your understanding of P2W is anything to go by, I'm not sure how I can take the rest of this post seriously.

 

Btw, the game feels like an MMO to me, since I play with other people 90% of the time.

[ysnake.3619]

3 hours ago, SEED.9051 said:

I mean anets version of a MMO is playing dress up.... so you win if I don't wanna swipe my CC. You are only thinking of the old definition of P2W. It's 2021, and you have to open your mind to what others perceive as unfair.

 

Oh boy, first of all: GW2 is not Pay to Win (that is what P2W means) - meaning, no other player can go into cash shop and get something that makes them more powerful than anyone in the game.

 

What I will agree on though is GW2 is "Pay for Convenience", that it DEFINITELY is. But, judging how GW2's market is either hardcore fans (who will gladly give their real money for some cosmetic things) and how their game is "Pay to Play" (you just need to buy the game and that's it, no subscription), there is no P2W in this game.

 

Why is GW2 an underrated MMORPG? Well, to get that one down, you must venture back to its launch. Launch GW2 had everything they promised, but that felt flat.

PvE was rather rubbish, boring and repetitive

sPvP was a random-queue mess  (no MMR) and some CLEAR balancing issues

sPvP had no "structure" to it to support competitive PvPers (of which there were actually quite a good amount of)

WvWvW was a lagfest at first and FPS-killer at second (this was before today's awesome graphic cards and everyone having 16gb RAM)

WoW was releasing Mists of Pandaria at the time

Weird not noob-friendly combat system for anyone transitioning from WoW

Their already-low marketing was drowned in Pandas