Should thief mains ask for a support spec as next elite?

[Axl.8924]

Considering other stuff like roamer and decapper.

 

Should we ask for the ability to give really solid supprot in a new elite?

[anduriell.6280]

I do think it would be nice to have some spec dedicated to support. Not being able to have a legitimate spot in squads is really hurting the thief gameplay in WvW. 

 

There is so much roaming you can do nowadays without becoming repetitive.

[Jumpel.3972]

I belive the next e-spec will be focus on condi. Maybe burn with torch or confu with a focus

[Axl.8924]

While its true condi isn't the official why wouldn't anyone want a support focused which can i dunno get extra benefit from venom share to heal and other buffs in quantity?

[Dadnir.5038]

Having a support e-spec and being meta support are 2 very different things.

 

While I find the idea of an e-spec with support elements attractive, I'm not gonna trust that such e-spec will automatically be able to fit in any meta.

 

To get spots into WvW raid, the thief first need to be perceived as more "resilient" than he is perceived right now. Then it would need some unique support that would fit well within the meta (ideally something that counter what is meta currently. Maybe it could steal barrier/boon on a large scale). Lastly it need some efficient range aoe, because... Zerg...

 

Having something that fit the bill is highly unlikely. (Not impossible thought)

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

One of two things will happen if thief gets a support spec; 

1) It will be strong enough to be meta, which would make it a better support than firebrand.

2) It won't be strong enough to be meta, but the extra support plus thief's offensive kit will spawn the mother of all 1v1 specs. 

Both of those things will lead to the spec being nerfed into the floor simply for existing. I'd rather go with a different way to DPS and not see the class be ripped apart to accommodate something it was never designed for.  

5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I do think it would be nice to have some spec dedicated to support. Not being able to have a legitimate spot in squads is really hurting the thief gameplay in WvW. 

 

There is so much roaming you can do nowadays without becoming repetitive.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with this. I just don't see how it would work in a meta where firebrand, scrapper and rev as supports are so dominant. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[Axl.8924]

I like the idea actually of stealing barrier and stealing buffs and giving it to the team, but that would likely not be viable in pve.

 

It would be both really hilarious and entertaining to see groups of thieves go into WVW sripping all the boons from enemies and giving it to their teams.

 

Then again the enemies with enemy scourge would just boon corrupt and it wouldn't matter and a support thief wouldn't be good.

 

And question is: If the next elite was a condi spec in the current climate with confusion would it even be viable?

 

What about this: Venomshare:Grants a 1 use or more than 1 use to your group for x  amount x seconds x on X cd poison condition? That would be useful no? Giving your team members a proc that procs poison condition for condi builds to your team?
Maybe with combination give a proc which increases burn and bleeds on group or something for pve?

This would be pretty niche though.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Sons.5493]

I would love a support spec, I would love it even more if that spec comes with a few extra thief exclusive mechanics that sets us apart from other support professions. As others have mentioned the meta is a tough wall to break without making the new spec completely busted. Although in my opinion is mostly community driven and u can clear most content with diferent specs that are not necessarily top of the meta.

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

I like the idea actually of stealing barrier and stealing buffs and giving it to the team, but that would likely not be viable in pve.

 

Yeah, it's pretty much the core of the issue, most interesting things that would help a profession fight for a spot on a PvP/WvW meta is bound to face the wall of a very lacking PvE.

 

Thief's core idea is to "steal" and players' charaters have a lot more things worth being stolen than PvE AI. Weapons, endurance, boons, barrier; A design based around stealing any of those would be worth a shot in PvP environment yet would translate poorly in PvE.

 

Personally, I think thief's best shot at a support spec would be granting barrier to it's allies, revealing foes and immobilizing foes via "shadow magic". Add the ability to grant a bit more might stacks and you'd get an e-spec that's basically a mix of druid and scourge. Would it be enough to enter the meta? Probably not, it would depend heavily on the amount of barrier and immob output. (The spec would be pure kitten thought. Just imagining it, I already want it to be nerfed to the ground.)

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

18 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Yeah, it's pretty much the core of the issue, most interesting things that would help a profession fight for a spot on a PvP/WvW meta is bound to face the wall of a very lacking PvE.

 

Thief's core idea is to "steal" and players' charaters have a lot more things worth being stolen than PvE AI. Weapons, endurance, boons, barrier; A design based around stealing any of those would be worth a shot in PvP environment yet would translate poorly in PvE.

 

Personally, I think thief's best shot at a support spec would be granting barrier to it's allies, revealing foes and immobilizing foes via "shadow magic". Add the ability to grant a bit more might stacks and you'd get an e-spec that's basically a mix of druid and scourge. Would it be enough to enter the meta? Probably not, it would depend heavily on the amount of barrier and immob output. (The spec would be pure kitten thought. Just imagining it, I already want it to be nerfed to the ground.)

 

To be honest I wouldn't have a problem with that, the bigger issue is that ANet as a company keeps flip flopping between whether it wants every spec to have PvP viability or PvE viability as it's priority, and it has mixed success. Not every spec has to be viable in all areas, but when you make an elite spec for a class like thief that's pretty much always been undesirable in PvE, you best make sure it's good for PvP and WvW. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[Axl.8924]

On 6/3/2021 at 7:47 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

To be honest I wouldn't have a problem with that, the bigger issue is that ANet as a company keeps flip flopping between whether it wants every spec to have PvP viability or PvE viability as it's priority, and it has mixed success. Not every spec has to be viable in all areas, but when you make an elite spec for a class like thief that's pretty much always been undesirable in PvE, you best make sure it's good for PvP and WvW. 

 

Thief used to have multiple builds viable for both elites and core.

 

The problem is people at times are misinformed and or biased towards thief, like asking for stealth to be nerfed into non existence and or getting rid of all mobility, and this effects thieves viability as roamers and decappers.

 

Also sometimes stuff is touched which shouldn't be.  to me when i think of thief class, i think of rogue from fantasy types fast classes running around quite fast being stealthy, stabbing people in the back for big damage numbers if they get you.

 

If you want to play a class that has a different fantasy, say warrior type fantasy, play warrior.

[Zacchary.6183]

13 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

One of two things will happen if thief gets a support spec; 

1) It will be strong enough to be meta, which would make it a better support than firebrand.

2) It won't be strong enough to be meta, but the extra support plus thief's offensive kit will spawn the mother of all 1v1 specs. 

Both of those things will lead to the spec being nerfed into the floor simply for existing. I'd rather go with a different way to DPS and not see the class be ripped apart to accommodate something it was never designed for.  

Don't get me wrong, I agree with this. I just don't see how it would work in a meta where firebrand, scrapper and rev as supports are so dominant. 

Just to point out, the biggest voice of the nerf crowds will be meta purists.

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

To be honest I wouldn't have a problem with that, the bigger issue is that ANet as a company keeps flip flopping between whether it wants every spec to have PvP viability or PvE viability as it's priority, and it has mixed success. Not every spec has to be viable in all areas, but when you make an elite spec for a class like thief that's pretty much always been undesirable in PvE, you best make sure it's good for PvP and WvW. 

 

Thief haven't really been "undesirable" in PvE.

1. Thief have been and will most likely stay one of the most effective options for dungeons because most of them have skipable adds (For example, I wouldn't even think of doing caudecus manor with something else than my thief).
2. In raid/strike missions, bosses have really strong stolen objects that can be (and are meant to be) abused and while the strongest of them have been nerfed not long ago, it doesn't mean that thief have lost everything there.
3. I do agree that thief don't have much room to express himself in fractals, still I can see a few fractals where having a thief is pretty handy (Uncategorized, Swampland, Undergroung facility).

[Telgum.6071]

Yes, please. We already have two dps specializations, we have the damage ground covered specially after the last patch buffs. Now it is time to be able to fill some supportive and teamplay role.

I'm excited with this because I think the xpec is 100% going to be support due to the Boon Thief nerfs.

[Kaizen.3804]

I'm sure whatever it is we get for an elite spec, the forums will be up in arms demanding it be nerfed into the ground, on day 1.

 

But yeah, a support spec would be a nice change of pace.

[GRRRR.3521]

The prevailing argument for thief support just seems to be "thief doesnt have a support role so it needs one". But if scourge and firebrand continue to exist in their current form the big question is "will it be viable/accepted in anything but open world content".

Heres a crazy thought, in exchange for having almost no group utility give the new thief spec actually significantly more dps than a support role. Wowie! That would be like, an actual DPS class?! What a novel concept.

With Anets No-Trinity design thief really got the short end of the stick. You have support classes with over 35k dps but as soon as thief eclipses that (hello gimmicky cDE d/p build) it needs to be nerfed because you cant have lots of damage while also being able to support. Except thief cant really support so it needs to have equal damage to support classes because [...loading...].

If the new thief support is equally busted as scourge and firebrand, fine ill take it. Otherwise give me an actual DPS class doing more actual DPS than a class which can also SUPPORT or TANK and stick with it regardless how how much forum/reddit crying there is.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 6/4/2021 at 8:35 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Thief haven't really been "undesirable" in PvE.

1. Thief have been and will most likely stay one of the most effective options for dungeons because most of them have skipable adds (For example, I wouldn't even think of doing caudecus manor with something else than my thief).
2. In raid/strike missions, bosses have really strong stolen objects that can be (and are meant to be) abused and while the strongest of them have been nerfed not long ago, it doesn't mean that thief have lost everything there.
3. I do agree that thief don't have much room to express himself in fractals, still I can see a few fractals where having a thief is pretty handy (Uncategorized, Swampland, Undergroung facility).

Dungeons are no longer supported and so faceroll that thief isnt required. Its still the best for map exploits.

Thief is not good because of design or anything but because of completely busted stolen skills. Its useless in places without stolen skills or outside of niche ip tanks like qadim requires. On samarog 27% of my damage was coming from magnetic bombs the other day. And it was just on par with holo. Holo can achieve those numbers on any boss.

Why would it be handy in those fractals? Smokefields are not limited to thief and scrapper stealth is enough aswell. Thief is currently the worst fractal power dps class together with mesmer. Of course you can play it just fine in casual groups but the "no thief groups" exist for a reason.

 

The only reason its not meme tier in raids are busted stolen skills on a few bosses. Thats a bandaid solution. And it shows in fractals where you dont even use your profession mechanic most of the time. They could go with the bandaid solution and allow us to preselect stolen skills in pve or give every legendary those op skills or they could balance thief properly without those.

 

Most of the discussion here is about pvp and wvsw but thats the only place besides sama and qadim where you don't roll your eyes when somebody joins your group as a thief. Pve thief needs a lot of love. Or redesign of DE to make it work with other weapons than rifle. Rifle is just not working in any content besides wvsw cheese or special niche roles like qadim. d/d needs a complete redesign anyways.

[Dadnir.5038]

4 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Dungeons are no longer supported and so faceroll that thief isnt required. Its still the best for map exploits.

Thief is not good because of design or anything but because of completely busted stolen skills. Its useless in places without stolen skills or outside of niche ip tanks like qadim requires. On samarog 27% of my damage was coming from magnetic bombs the other day. And it was just on par with holo. Holo can achieve those numbers on any boss.

Why would it be handy in those fractals? Smokefields are not limited to thief and scrapper stealth is enough aswell. Thief is currently the worst fractal power dps class together with mesmer. Of course you can play it just fine in casual groups but the "no thief groups" exist for a reason.

 

The only reason its not meme tier in raids are busted stolen skills on a few bosses. Thats a bandaid solution. And it shows in fractals where you dont even use your profession mechanic most of the time. They could go with the bandaid solution and allow us to preselect stolen skills in pve or give every legendary those op skills or they could balance thief properly without those.

 

Dungeon: Those are faceroll for veteran players, Players that didn't grow with and within the dungeons are likely to struggle more in dungeon than in fractals.

 

Fractal: Stealth and portal are of great use in the few fractal I listed. Yes, you don't necessarily need these tools (especially within a fixed party of experienced players) but you can also encounter less skilled players while PuGing that could keep you stuck for a very long time on mechanics that can just be ignored with those same tools.

 

13 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Most of the discussion here is about pvp and wvsw but thats the only place besides sama and qadim where you don't roll your eyes when somebody joins your group as a thief. Pve thief needs a lot of love. Or redesign of DE to make it work with other weapons than rifle. Rifle is just not working in any content besides wvsw cheese or special niche roles like qadim. d/d needs a complete redesign anyways.

 

I don't doubt that most of the discussion is about PvP/WvW, but the quote I answer to is about PvE. Fact is that thief haven't **always** been "undesirable" in PvE and I listed why. You can make everything that I listed insignificant by basically saying that "you can do without this stuff" but it doesn't mean that it hasn't been significant at some point in time nor that it isn't still very significant for a part of the game's population.

[DeceiverX.8361]

They should probably fix the class's damage issues first before giving it support and defensive identities.

 

I'd rather see the thief be actually good at a constant aggression or good quick 1 for 1 trading than a constant engage->run->repeat pattern it so heavily depends on.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

9 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

They should probably fix the class's damage issues first before giving it support and defensive identities.

 

I'd rather see the thief be actually good at a constant aggression or good quick 1 for 1 trading than a constant engage->run->repeat pattern it so heavily depends on.

Stances on Assassin and OH sword 

 

😎

 

Jokes aside, I don't think support is what fits thief and what will make it meta. Give it something unique like a buff and it should be already more team-focused.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

We can ask. Yes.

Personnally I want it.

 

Does that mean the game need a support thief spec ? Hmm pretty sure no. At least not the way most of people ask it.

 

If it's just more quickness, more alacrity, more healing, mights, fury etc ... it's just useless : or you'll be strong enough and you'll kill FB, ren, chrono etc; or you're not and you're just useless.

If it's a buffer, for example sharing the "revealed power bonus", dark auras, "banners" etc, yes.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

We can ask. Yes.

Personnally I want it.

 

Does that mean the game need a support thief spec ? Hmm pretty sure no. At least not the way most of people ask it.

 

If it's just more quickness, more alacrity, more healing, mights, fury etc ... it's just useless : or you'll be strong enough and you'll kill FB, ren, chrono etc; or you're not and you're just useless.

If it's a buffer, for example sharing the "revealed power bonus", dark auras, "banners" etc, yes.

 

Well tbh, heres the thing. u could say that about all support.. Alot of options have all of it.. what it needs to bring is the ability to swap one of those out for a Thief without ruining a team comp in the process to expand the applications that can be made to fill roles.

 

I think its very likely Thief will get Support.

 

Becaause thief currently lacks options to fill more utility based positions.

[Hi no Ishi.4378]

Yes !.  if you are not gonna let us do dmg , then give support spec lol ,atleast i can finally play the class i like ( in competitive game modes)  ANET

[ASP.8093]

I just don't see a way to squeeze enough support stuff into a single new trait line and ~4 skills to bring thief up to par with how FB, Renegade, or Scrapper do in that role. It would have to be absurdly overloaded.

 

*Tangential* group support on a DPS spec would probably be more viable (think about how Hammer Herald spits out a lot of group boons while its main job is still AOE ranged burst). I think I'd prefer it to be something offensively focused with a unique ability of some sort rather than just pure boon spam (the Spellbreaker boon-crusher bubble is an example of what I mean by that).

[TwiceDead.1963]

These discussions always seem like "Thief doesn't have support. We should add support because it doesn't have any!" without regarding how the rest of the traits and utilities fit into that mindset.

 

The only trait trees with KINDA support options is Shadow Arts and Trickery. Shadow Arts in one very particular niche of stealth and SS healing, and Trickery in terms of boon-support inside a 360 radius which is dependent on EVERYONE hugging either the Target or the Thief, where the latter is kind of impossible considering how much Thief has to move around to stay alive. The two don't really even synergize well. The healing potential is starved by Initiative and how many shadow steps you can accurately pull off, and the boon support is only in play every 25th second.

 

The point is that you have to work your kitten off on thief to make a support build KINDA work but for meager results, while in comparison the other classes already have a ton of support and utility options with forgiving radiuses already built into their core trees WITHOUT relying on elites.

 

The only real solution to that is to overload the new elite tree with so many support options it becomes busted from the get-go, and we know where it goes from there.