Should thief mains ask for a support spec as next elite?

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, TwiceDead.1963 said:

These discussions always seem like "Thief doesn't have support. We should add support because it doesn't have any!" without regarding how the rest of the traits and utilities fit into that mindset.

 

The only trait trees with KINDA support options is Shadow Arts and Trickery. Shadow Arts in one very particular niche of stealth and SS healing, and Trickery in terms of boon-support inside a 360 radius which is dependent on EVERYONE hugging either the Target or the Thief, where the latter is kind of impossible considering how much Thief has to move around to stay alive. The two don't really even synergize well. The healing potential is starved by Initiative and how many shadow steps you can accurately pull off, and the boon support is only in play every 25th second.

 

The point is that you have to work your kitten off on thief to make a support build KINDA work but for meager results, while in comparison the other classes already have a ton of support and utility options with forgiving radiuses already built into their core trees WITHOUT relying on elites.

 

The only real solution to that is to overload the new elite tree with so many support options it becomes busted from the get-go, and we know where it goes from there.

I really enjoy playing thief support in WvW where it's more apparent being deliberate and tangible but in pve it's only really a factor in open world events or bosses that can down people quick and have waves of adds to intercept and burst on. In pve instances, you're kind of stuck moving with a team instead of tethering at a good support range and you have nothing passive going on in the background that will show up on any charts or continue to perform during any kind of encounter phases that aren't shrugged off. 

 

All of our kitten is getting too expensive anyway, who wants to spend Initiative or cooldowns when you know you're going to need to be clutch with them to recover from stuff?

Edited June 11, 2021 by kash.9213

[TwiceDead.1963]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

I really enjoy playing thief support in WvW where it's more apparent being deliberate and tangible but in pve it's only really a factor in open world events or bosses that can down people quick and have waves of adds to intercept and burst on. In pve instances, you're kind of stuck moving with a team instead of tethering at a good support range and you have nothing passive going on in the background that will show up on any charts or continue to perform during any kind of encounter phases that aren't shrugged off. 

 

All of our kitten is getting too expensive anyway, who wants to spend Initiative or cooldowns when you know you're going to need to be clutch with them to recover from stuff?

Unrelated, but this is pretty funny.

"Shits getting too expensive, time to rob the world!" - A thief, probably

[itspomf.9523]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:57 AM, TwiceDead.1963 said:

The point is that you have to work your kitten off on thief to make a support build KINDA work but for meager results, while in comparison the other classes already have a ton of support and utility options with forgiving radiuses already built into their core trees WITHOUT relying on elites.

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point that more support is better than barely any.  In fact, we don't need to "be meta" or rival any other class.  That's why there's several classes that all do similar things (and one that's accepted as generally being the best at it).

 

Then again, in most non-competitive game modes, that's not really a concern.

 

Thief's biggest problem right now is that it has lost every edge it ever held:  other classes do more damage, 1v1 better, have more reliable stealth, better mobility (that doesn't require crippling their attacks), better and more conditions, meaningful traps, and just about everything else that thief does.

 

It really is a shadow of what it was back at launch, precisely because of what other posters have mentioned.  If it hasn't been nerfed, the vocal minority of competitive players have created the belief that Thief needs to only be mobile for decaps and roaming, which has placed unnecessary emphasis on its ability to disengage and cover ground -- the very things that, again, get repeatedly nerfed.

 

So when we've already got 5 DPS specializations (Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, Trickery, Daredevil, and Deadeye), yes, it'd be nice to see Acrobatics and Shadow Arts actually get a little bit of love and useful synergy with a spec that doesn't distill down into "build up your damage."

 

Or in the very least, something more akin to vanilla Practiced Tolerence (which has since become Marauder's Resilience) to buff our abysmal health pool.

[itspomf.9523]

Looks like the new forum software is still glitchy.

Edited June 14, 2021 by fluffdragon.1523
Double post and no comfirmation in the UI

[TwiceDead.1963]

@fluffdragon.1523

I'd rather we focus on areas the thief can shine rather than shoehorn them into a role they are unsuited for.

They are unsuited for support because they don't bring anything unique to the table, and their actual support capabilities require a LOT of micromanagement, pin-point placement, and cooperation on the recipients part.. there's no stealth healing if you auto-attack like a muppet and reveal yourself. Imagine telling someone they have to stop doing DPS in order to be healed in a raid setting.

 

I just don't think overloading an entire elite spec in order to rectify this weakness is a good idea when none of the other trees synergize well.

 

They should give thief some staying-power so that we aren't shoehorned into a single role across all gamemodes (I.E gotta go fast), and that supports our already 4 DPS oriented trees much better.

 

Shadow Arts and Trickery I get, but Acrobatics is an entirely selfish trait-line. It offers no support to others, just to the thief.

Edited June 15, 2021 by TwiceDead.1963

[Seb De Tyra.3421]

I'd prefer sword offhand, call it a blade dancer and make it a teamfighter aoe style specialisation.

[reddie.5861]

if i dont get a big kitten great sword to swing with im dissapointed i dont want to be a support, at very start of gw2 i choose thief cus i wanted to deal dmg. a support spec like it or not will just be left alone cus no thief made one to play it as support beside the meme medic build that used to work dunno if it still does.

[kash.9213]

52 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

if i dont get a big kitten great sword to swing with im dissapointed i dont want to be a support, at very start of gw2 i choose thief cus i wanted to deal dmg. a support spec like it or not will just be left alone cus no thief made one to play it as support beside the meme medic build that used to work dunno if it still does.

I just said in this very thread that I like to play support. You can play support and deal damage at the same time. You're a thief with Initiative and you're making arguments as if you play the other classes with cooldowns. Just because you limit yourself or don't want to bother figuring stuff out doesn't mean other players want to funnel themselves into one rigid role. You still have Core, Drd, and DE, which are likely what I'd still be playing as support often even given a dedicated by design support Elite because they're all fun with great tools. 

[reddie.5861]

On 6/17/2021 at 10:05 PM, kash.9213 said:

I just said in this very thread that I like to play support. You can play support and deal damage at the same time. You're a thief with Initiative and you're making arguments as if you play the other classes with cooldowns. Just because you limit yourself or don't want to bother figuring stuff out doesn't mean other players want to funnel themselves into one rigid role. You still have Core, Drd, and DE, which are likely what I'd still be playing as support often even given a dedicated by design support Elite because they're all fun with great tools. 

my point is who in their right mind, makes a thief at very start of gw2 or even untill now thinking they will be a support class..
thief in all their elites have been mostly for single target dps u want single target support?

support just doesnt suit thief to start off with and would be trully dumb to make a elite for it..

 

[kash.9213]

50 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

my point is who in their right mind, makes a thief at very start of gw2 or even untill now thinking they will be a support class..
thief in all their elites have been mostly for single target dps u want single target support?

support just doesnt suit thief to start off with and would be trully dumb to make a elite for it..

 

That's pretty much how I started out with my guild. Initiative is an awesome game mechanic and we have good control and movement skills. If warrior or guardian had Initiative and better animations and skill combos I'd be playing one of those. 

[Kodama.6453]

On 6/19/2021 at 9:14 PM, reddie.5861 said:

my point is who in their right mind, makes a thief at very start of gw2 or even untill now thinking they will be a support class..
thief in all their elites have been mostly for single target dps u want single target support?

support just doesnt suit thief to start off with and would be trully dumb to make a elite for it..

 

These class stereotypes are exactly what Anet wants to fight, not encourage.

 

Just look at the core designs. Literally every class has skills and traits available to support allies. They vary in strength currently, but elite specs are helping out here. And thief is no exception, you already have things fitting for the support role:

• Venom
• Some deceptions (blinding powder, shadow refuge, smoke screen)
• Signed of agility (AoE cleanse)
• Several traits in shadow arts
• Several traits in trickery

 

Anet disliked back then in GW1 that you were pretty much forced to either bring a monk or ritualist, since these 2 classes were the only ones which could heal allies and healing was needed.

 

The goal is that all classes can do every role, just with different approaches. All are supposed to be able to support, dps or tank for their team.

Thief is not there yet, the class can survive quite well thanks to daredevil and also can dish out damage. But the supportive abilities are not good enough to bring them. A support elite spec can change this.

 

The argument "supporting doesn't fit this class" doesn't hold. You can make it thematically fitting for every class and as I have already shown, thieves already have support stuff. It's just not good enough as a whole.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[cyberzombie.7348]

I'd much rather have our pre-existing support traits and utilities ramped up before considering a whole new spec.

Edited June 21, 2021 by cyberzombie.7348

[Puck.3697]

On 6/11/2021 at 9:43 AM, ASP.8093 said:

I just don't see a way to squeeze enough support stuff into a single new trait line and ~4 skills to bring thief up to par with how FB, Renegade, or Scrapper do in that role. It would have to be absurdly overloaded.

 

*Tangential* group support on a DPS spec would probably be more viable (think about how Hammer Herald spits out a lot of group boons while its main job is still AOE ranged burst). I think I'd prefer it to be something offensively focused with a unique ability of some sort rather than just pure boon spam (the Spellbreaker boon-crusher bubble is an example of what I mean by that).

 

 I wouldn't underestimate it. 

 

They could likely get alacrity uptime into thief by handing it a F key mechanic to replace steal. 

 

Quickness could be applied to a short CD ability in the new weapons kit. 

 

And then shouts as a new utility line,

 

This wouldn't overload the trait line. As none of this would from its trait line

 

Then through traits give the ability to take a trait which applies barrier or healing when using said shouts. 

 

Then buff the traitline which gives thief access to a form of healing up quite alot. 

 

And then you basically have a support build entirely, it'd be overloaded sure. But so is firebrand. Tbh. 

 

Although imho they should rework firebrand and scourge so they do less without just nerfing the crap out the speccs. Then lower the bar.. 

 

Then go back to a time where speccs support builds weren't just able to do everything. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[reddie.5861]

On 6/20/2021 at 4:45 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

These class stereotypes are exactly what Anet wants to fight, not encourage.

 

Just look at the core designs. Literally every class has skills and traits available to support allies. They vary in strength currently, but elite specs are helping out here. And thief is no exception, you already have things fitting for the support role:

• Venom
• Some deceptions (blinding powder, shadow refuge, smoke screen)
• Signed of agility (AoE cleanse)
• Several traits in shadow arts
• Several traits in trickery

 

Anet disliked back then in GW1 that you were pretty much forced to either bring a monk or ritualist, since these 2 classes were the only ones which could heal allies and healing was needed.

 

The goal is that all classes can do every role, just with different approaches. All are supposed to be able to support, dps or tank for their team.

Thief is not there yet, the class can survive quite well thanks to daredevil and also can dish out damage. But the supportive abilities are not good enough to bring them. A support elite spec can change this.

 

The argument "supporting doesn't fit this class" doesn't hold. You can make it thematically fitting for every class and as I have already shown, thieves already have support stuff. It's just not good enough as a whole.

 

we have support also but it doesnt fit in PvE scene..
we can stealth people we can stun lock people to dead etc.. our support is more offensive support.
but none of this is usefull in PvE.

 

then again my point is still same, pretty sure 99% of people started off as thief cus its "roque" like which they will instantly link on to big spike dmg..

there no point for support spec tbh..

 

now we have gotten to point where thief isnt good at anything(yes ofcourse we rock at something) our dmg is nerfed big time or other classes boosted big time. our mobility isnt that great anymore many classes can do same we are just faster on terrain with hills etc. go on, back in the day it was fun to gank in back of a WvW blob doing proper dmg nowadays u hit into a block or u simply do kitten 4/5k dmg or u spank into 6k barrier or go on.

 

thief is on all fronts in really kitten if u ask me, while its good at one thing, chosing the fights and resetting em.

would u put thief in a cage with any other given class u probably lose most of em.

 

thus being said i prefer having a proper DPS class that can actually sustain few hits and hit like a truck again like in our CORE days.

[Kodama.6453]

On 6/22/2021 at 9:04 PM, reddie.5861 said:

we have support also but it doesnt fit in PvE scene..
we can stealth people we can stun lock people to dead etc.. our support is more offensive support.
but none of this is usefull in PvE.

 

then again my point is still same, pretty sure 99% of people started off as thief cus its "roque" like which they will instantly link on to big spike dmg..

there no point for support spec tbh..

 

now we have gotten to point where thief isnt good at anything(yes ofcourse we rock at something) our dmg is nerfed big time or other classes boosted big time. our mobility isnt that great anymore many classes can do same we are just faster on terrain with hills etc. go on, back in the day it was fun to gank in back of a WvW blob doing proper dmg nowadays u hit into a block or u simply do kitten 4/5k dmg or u spank into 6k barrier or go on.

 

thief is on all fronts in really kitten if u ask me, while its good at one thing, chosing the fights and resetting em.

would u put thief in a cage with any other given class u probably lose most of em.

 

thus being said i prefer having a proper DPS class that can actually sustain few hits and hit like a truck again like in our CORE days.

Thief also has boon support and there is a good opportunity to make thief a viable heal support.

There is the trait which heals allies around you whenever you use a shadowstep.

They could build a heal support around the shadowstep mechanic.

 

For example, make steal a ground targeted effect with a long cooldown, but the cooldown is heavily reduced if you hit an ally with the skill. Now you have a shadow step which you can use frequently on allies to trigger the healing effect of the shadow step trait. Maybe you also get the stolen skills just by hitting an ally with the effect, then the stolen skill itself also heals over time and grants boons to allies.

 

There are ways to implement an interesting support elite spec for thief. And yes, many might have made a thief with the rogue archetype in mind. If you are one of them, then you already have 2 elite specs fitting this (daredevil and deadeye both play into the rogue thematic).

 

The thing is that Anet also wants to give options for players who want to play their class untraditionally. What I am saying: people who want to play a "typical" thief can already do that, just pick one of the 2 other elite specs. But having the option to do something with thief which is not commonly associated as "their job" might be interesting for other players.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

To be honest, at this point I'd be happy if they introduced a grandmaster trait in acro that copied the boons currently on the thief onto allies within a certain radius when you steal and called it Interpretive Dance. Boom, offensive boon support. 

[reddie.5861]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:07 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Thief also has boon support and there is a good opportunity to make thief a viable heal support.

There is the trait which heals allies around you whenever you use a shadowstep.

They could build a heal support around the shadowstep mechanic.

 

For example, make steal a ground targeted effect with a long cooldown, but the cooldown is heavily reduced if you hit an ally with the skill. Now you have a shadow step which you can use frequently on allies to trigger the healing effect of the shadow step trait. Maybe you also get the stolen skills just by hitting an ally with the effect, then the stolen skill itself also heals over time and grants bosons to allies.

 

There are ways to implement an interesting support elite spec for thief. And yes, many might have designed the thief with the rogue archetype in mind. If you are one of them, then you already have 2 elite specs fitting this (daredevil and deadeye both play into the rogue thematic).

 

The thing is that Anet also wants to give options for players who want to play their class untraditionally. What I am saying: people who want to play a "typical" thief can already do that, just pick one of the 2 other elite specs. But having the option to do something with thief which is not commonly associated as "their job" might be interesting for other players.

have u seen how bad this shadowstep heal stuff is? how often u wanna shadow step?
what game typ u even play howu gonna shadow step on ur allies in sPvP/WvW?

u see im not looking at this game as many others, for PvE i couldnt care about balance or w/e cus for me all pve is same a NPC with 1000 hp or a million they all die they all have same dumb mechanic hard coded.

but ye i know anet is balancing this game around PvE thus why this game has never had a proper balance yet.
thief is simply not good enough for a support char.

sure u can slap in a elite but u still have 2 more traits to take which none of em, maybe shadow arts is supportive..

 

so basically whole elite will be useless.

[Kodama.6453]

5 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

have u seen how bad this shadowstep heal stuff is? how often u wanna shadow step?
what game typ u even play howu gonna shadow step on ur allies in sPvP/WvW?

u see im not looking at this game as many others, for PvE i couldnt care about balance or w/e cus for me all pve is same a NPC with 1000 hp or a million they all die they all have same dumb mechanic hard coded.

but ye i know anet is balancing this game around PvE thus why this game has never had a proper balance yet.
thief is simply not good enough for a support char.

sure u can slap in a elite but u still have 2 more traits to take which none of em, maybe shadow arts is supportive..

 

so basically whole elite will be useless.

Shadow saviour heals for roughly 600 base plus 0.4*healing power. That are easily 1000 healing per shadow step, which doesn't seem that bad, tbh.

Then thief also has mainhand sword, which gives you 2 shadow steps for 5 initiative. I can see this working, especially if thief gets another weapon added with healing on it.

 

So all I am saying is that you can make it work. And yes, I primarily play PvE. As you mentioned, it seems that Anet also balances around PvE most of the time. The healing of the spec might not be extremely powerful in PvP, but it is the same for druid. If they build some other stuff besides healing in the traits, it might still have PvP use, like how druid has ancient seeds.

 

And I already pointed out, shadow arts is not the only supportive trait line. Support isn't just about healing. Trickery is also pretty supportive. Pick the traits thrill of the crime, bountiful theft and quick pockets, these should all work decently for support builds.

Even gives you more initiative for more shadow step spam or whatever a new supportive elite spec weapon might do and gives shorter steal cooldown for the mechanic I mentioned!

 

I get it, you personally would not like to play support. We will see what Anet is giving to thief, I just personally would like it to be a support spec, since I enjoy playing heal supports.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Shadow saviour heals for roughly 600 base plus 0.4*healing power. That are easily 1000 healing per shadow step, which doesn't seem that bad, tbh.

Then thief also has mainhand sword, which gives you 2 shadow steps for 5 initiative. I can see this working, especially if thief gets another weapon added with healing on it.

 

So all I am saying is that you can make it work. And yes, I primarily play PvE. As you mentioned, it seems that Anet also balances around PvE most of the time. The healing of the spec might not be extremely powerful in PvP, but it is the same for druid. If they build some other stuff besides healing in the traits, it might still have PvP use, like how druid has ancient seeds.

 

And I already pointed out, shadow arts is not the only supportive trait line. Support isn't just about healing. Trickery is also pretty supportive. Pick the traits thrill of the crime, bountiful theft and quick pockets, these should all work decently for support builds.

Even gives you more initiative for more shadow step spam or whatever a new supportive elite spec weapon might do and gives shorter steal cooldown for the mechanic I mentioned!

 

I get it, you personally would not like to play support. We will see what Anet is giving to thief, I just personally would like it to be a support spec, since I enjoy playing heal supports.

The Shadowstep from Infiltrators Arrow used to be affordable and it blinds along with the heal which used to be kind of clutch. Death's Retreat works well with it if you're already leaping for finishers anyway but we're pretty much down to Infiltrators Strike. It's a supplemental heal and no one notices because the animation is your skill animation but I like to use it when our side is trying to hold a hallway with siege lighting us up from the other end or a choke point or if I'm already using Merciful Ambush but I don't use them much currently. 

[reddie.5861]

On 6/23/2021 at 11:08 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Shadow saviour heals for roughly 600 base plus 0.4*healing power. That are easily 1000 healing per shadow step, which doesn't seem that bad, tbh.

Then thief also has mainhand sword, which gives you 2 shadow steps for 5 initiative. I can see this working, especially if thief gets another weapon added with healing on it.

 

So all I am saying is that you can make it work. And yes, I primarily play PvE. As you mentioned, it seems that Anet also balances around PvE most of the time. The healing of the spec might not be extremely powerful in PvP, but it is the same for druid. If they build some other stuff besides healing in the traits, it might still have PvP use, like how druid has ancient seeds.

 

And I already pointed out, shadow arts is not the only supportive trait line. Support isn't just about healing. Trickery is also pretty supportive. Pick the traits thrill of the crime, bountiful theft and quick pockets, these should all work decently for support builds.

Even gives you more initiative for more shadow step spam or whatever a new supportive elite spec weapon might do and gives shorter steal cooldown for the mechanic I mentioned!

 

I get it, you personally would not like to play support. We will see what Anet is giving to thief, I just personally would like it to be a support spec, since I enjoy playing heal supports.

druid is nerfed to dead in PvP there is no place for Druid beside some meme builds which are useless in both WvW and sPvP so meh 😛

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

druid is nerfed to dead in PvP there is no place for Druid beside some meme builds which are useless in both WvW and sPvP so meh 😛

Fine, I take another support elite spec as an example then: scourge.

 

Primarily intended as a support spec, but also gets to do condition damage and is quite powerful currently in PvP.

[cyberzombie.7348]

@Kodama Just to add on, when you have both healing power and outgoing heals maxed out you can heal for 1.4-1.7k per shadowstep. So after some experimentation using this build I've found out off of shadowsteps alone, you could heal up to 24.8K on average. However this is best done on idle players such as siege operators and groups focused on keep's lord. Moving players can be healed for 6-9k in a quick burst.

Edited June 25, 2021 by cyberzombie.7348

[reddie.5861]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Fine, I take another support elite spec as an example then: scourge.

 

Primarily intended as a support spec, but also gets to do condition damage and is quite powerful currently in PvP.

its powerfull yes, cus it can poop all over a node and have perma barriers up.

u see i know no1 will like it or agree with me, thief is by far the weakest thing ingame.

yes we get to choose fights and get to run away, but a thief in a cage will lose most fights. we used to be good but we got shafted nerf after nerf after nerf.
theres classes that hit harder with most skills then we do with backstab. all thief has in WvW and sPvP is mobility if we would go on heal spec we would probably still be the glass cannon healer even if u bunkered up ur char, our utilities suck hard to support, ofcourse i know we gonna get new utilities but u have only 2 slots (not including elite) ull always have shadowstep in there, and most likely signet of agility also (not needed but kinda every1 is using it)  so u have 1 utility left.

i mean personally i dont really mind thief as support i wont play it but i dont see how other traits gonna help out with this.
thief traits simply dont give anything to boost his support acro got nerfed hard aswell 😛

[Naii.9810]

Yes so we're actually welcome in parties.

[pureskullz.7536]

Honestly, It would be neat to see a life steal spec that can also support if it chose to.