Should thief mains ask for a support spec as next elite?

[Caeledh.5437]

I'm not a thief main. Thematically not into thief at all.

 

But mechanically I much prefer them to just playing cooldown whack-a-mole, which is how every other profession feels.

 

Thieves have always been very lacking in the support department though. Especially heals. Those have been tied to poisons which are utilities which are on cooldowns. So not what I want at all.

 

If their next elite spec is support and that's eg. not all tied up in utilities and accursed cooldowns, that would make the game much more appealing to me.

 

I'm also really pleased with and impressed by how the thief community managed to get ANet to back off from their attempt to dilute the best thing about thieves - no weapon ability cooldowns. I saw that Kneel used the ammo system originally and that confirmed my theory that ANet were trying to hybridise prof mechanics in an epic display of idiotic internal greed.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kneel

 

Even though it took half a year, the fact that they did back down on this would make me feel much safer maining a thief than a revenant. Even though revs are thematically much more to my tastes. Cos they crammed both rev elite spec utilities full of cooldowns and never backed down from that.

[Puck.3697]

On 6/28/2021 at 12:41 AM, Caeledh.5437 said:

I'm not a thief main. Thematically not into thief at all.

 

But mechanically I much prefer them to just playing cooldown whack-a-mole, which is how every other profession feels.

 

Thieves have always been very lacking in the support department though. Especially heals. Those have been tied to poisons which are utilities which are on cooldowns. So not what I want at all.

 

If their next elite spec is support and that's eg. not all tied up in utilities and accursed cooldowns, that would make the game much more appealing to me.

 

I'm also really pleased with and impressed by how the thief community managed to get ANet to back off from their attempt to dilute the best thing about thieves - no weapon ability cooldowns. I saw that Kneel used the ammo system originally and that confirmed my theory that ANet were trying to hybridise prof mechanics in an epic display of idiotic internal greed.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kneel

 

Even though it took half a year, the fact that they did back down on this would make me feel much safer maining a thief than a revenant. Even though revs are thematically much more to my tastes. Cos they crammed both rev elite spec utilities full of cooldowns and never backed down from that.

 

Thief is actually one of the proffessions I'm hoping for abit of power creep in. 

 

I mean how long has thief Sat on D/P builds in PvP for now? How long has it been daredevil in all content? 

 

Deadeye was a by a mile a huge miss, it's barely ever used. 

 

I'd like a magical themed thief personally something melee to mid ranged hybridised. 

 

I'd like something that replaces steal entirely (although unlikely to happen) 

 

I don't think it has to support in the ways people think of automatically. It could be a offensive support such as boon applications. Or get something like stance share. 

 

But yeah a full on support is wasted. What could thief possibly bring to the table that isn't already available?

 

Firebrand, tempest, Druid and scourge basically offer everything, it'd be a wasted elite to attempt to dabble into and I'd be concerned if it had any effect realistically. 

 

I feel like people who want full support thief don't rly see that problem, u won't suddenly be taken just because you can do the same thing, it will depend on which ones better. 

 

Tempest is a good example of this. 

 

 

 

 

[ASP.8093]

38 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Deadeye was a by a mile a huge miss, it's barely ever used.

Deadeye is a really solid solo character, you've got limitless initiative and perfect uptime on 25 Might and Fury, combined with the safety of range and moderate cleaving ability via piercing.

 

It's just that Daredevil works better for comped groups because:

1. Staff base damage and cleave make it the most viable thief PvE weapon by a mile. This alone *automatically* makes Daredevil the most viable PvE thief spec.

2. The DD traitline packs in nice "unique" damage modifiers that stack better with all the boons your party members are giving you. (DD has trouble generating any of those boons itself outside of specific fights that give OP Stolen Skills, which is why it's not that viable/popular of a Raid pick, either: "pure DPS" builds are simply not as good as "DPS and also group support and also you can carry people through mechanics" builds, even if it's something as easy as a Guardian stopping a party wipe with a single application of group Aegis.)

3. In SPvP, Daredevil gives better mobility and survival while Deadeye is easier to focus down or push out of the fight, and stealth — one of Deadeye's biggest advantages among thief specs — is both weaker in SPvP (longer revealed duration) and more counterproductive (prevents capping) than it is in other game modes.

 

That still leaves the spec as a very powerful WvW roamer — very much on par with Daredevil, though excelling against different targets — and probably the best thief spec for open-world and event content.

 

And, for what it's worth, Deadeye does see serious group PvE play whenever there's the possibility of converting massive initiative replenishment into actually good damage (like P/D two weeks ago) or when hitting things from long range actually matters.

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

Deadeye is a really solid solo character, you've got limitless initiative and perfect uptime on 25 Might and Fury, combined with the safety of range and moderate cleaving ability via piercing.

 

It's just that Daredevil works better for comped groups because:

1. Staff base damage and cleave make it the most viable thief PvE weapon by a mile. This alone *automatically* makes Daredevil the most viable PvE thief spec.

2. The DD traitline packs in nice "unique" damage modifiers that stack better with all the boons your party members are giving you. (DD has trouble generating any of those boons itself outside of specific fights that give OP Stolen Skills, which is why it's not that viable/popular of a Raid pick, either: "pure DPS" builds are simply not as good as "DPS and also group support and also you can carry people through mechanics" builds, even if it's something as easy as a Guardian stopping a party wipe with a single application of group Aegis.)

3. In SPvP, Daredevil gives better mobility and survival while Deadeye is easier to focus down or push out of the fight, and stealth — one of Deadeye's biggest advantages among thief specs — is both weaker in SPvP (longer revealed duration) and more counterproductive (prevents capping) than it is in other game modes.

 

That still leaves the spec as a very powerful WvW roamer — very much on par with Daredevil, though excelling against different targets — and probably the best thief spec for open-world and event content.

 

And, for what it's worth, Deadeye does see serious group PvE play whenever there's the possibility of converting massive initiative replenishment into actually good damage (like P/D two weeks ago) or when hitting things from long range actually matters.

 

As far as im aware, a large problem is its kneeling mechanic, where Deadeye is basically messed up by being forced to move in groups?..

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

Hmmm

 

A thief with support spec...I'm seeing sn OP duelist, still fastest decapper in competitive modes...

 

But extremely underwhelming support in pve.

 

 

I'd prefer a torch, and I am guessing that is what thief will get.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm going to put this out there ... there is some significant jeopardy giving support skills to a class than can perma-stealth in competitive game modes. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

I would like to see some Gw1 assassin skills and GW1 conditions / hexes added to the next elite spec as they can really add some new flavor to the class unique to assassin, hell add hexes to the other new elite specs if you wish.

Lets take a look at Deep Wound, this is sort of like GW2 Barrier but is a negative effect and can and should directly pressure a target but can be cleansed similar to how Vulnerability is Cracked Armor in GW1...Deep wound would counter Barrier if its applied to the target prior barrier being applied. If the target gains Barrier / is healed after Deep wound then the barrier is negated and the target only heals up to the maximum of the Deep wound's limit. So if i apply Deep wound to say, an elementalist/scourge, BEFORE they apply barrier then they only get healed from the barrier application and Barrier is NOT applied and can only heal up to the maximum allowed by Deep Wound. If they cleanse Deep Wound first, then apply everything is normally applied which could create some strategic thinking in cleanses instead of mindlessly cleansing, causing the target to think before they just cleanse willy nilly.

This being stated I can see the next elite spec for thief to have some form of Hexes and Stances that are sharable with party members which could give some heavy utility with the already existent, yet useless, trait lines such as Shadow Savior.

Some ideas I could see are the gw1 assassin skills like Flashing Blades / Mirrored Stance / Impale / Locust's Fury / Mark of Death / Shadow Shroud
I can also see use of Shadow Form to be used as a Stance but give aid to allies by sharing the stance if we spec for it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Considering how garbage thief is in PvE and PvP, probably.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 6/29/2021 at 5:35 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm going to put this out there ... there is some significant jeopardy giving support skills to a class than can perma-stealth in competitive game modes. 

Ah yes, the 5th player in a 4v5.

[Caeledh.5437]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:02 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

I'd like a magical themed thief personally something melee to mid ranged hybridised. 

 

....

 

But yeah a full on support is wasted. What could thief possibly bring to the table that isn't already available?

I'd also love something more magically themed.

 

But the answer to your other question is obvious and something I explicitly addressed.

 

All other professions are COMPLETELY mechanically different. Most are entirely cooldown based and even revenant has a lot of them.

 

Personally I might appreciate and play a 100% support thief elite spec. A lot. But as I can and have spoken to here in relation to all elite specs, that degree and kind of specificity is not necessarily smart. Especially with thief. There are very likely many players who play this profession and no others, because they're so mechanically different.

 

Every thief elite spec which they might look at and see no added value in, greatly increases the chance that they don't buy the expansion and also possibly stop playing.

 

From what I've read and seen myself - I tried it during one of the beta events - Scourge seems to be capable in both support and damage departments. With the usual caveat - how good you are at either will vary depending on your gear.

 

ANet could do something similar with the next thief elite spec.

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

I'd also love something more magically themed.

 

But the answer to your other question is obvious and something I explicitly addressed.

 

All other professions are COMPLETELY mechanically different. Most are entirely cooldown based and even revenant has a lot of them.

 

Personally I might appreciate and play a 100% support thief elite spec. A lot. But as I can and have spoken to here in relation to all elite specs, that degree and kind of specificity is not necessarily smart. Especially with thief. There are very likely many players who play this profession and no others, because they're so mechanically different.

 

Every thief elite spec which they might look at and see no added value in, greatly increases the chance that they don't buy the expansion and also possibly stop playing.

 

From what I've read and seen myself - I tried it during one of the beta events - Scourge seems to be capable in both support and damage departments. With the usual caveat - how good you are at either will vary depending on your gear.

 

ANet could do something similar with the next thief elite spec.

 

your correct thief runs on 0 cooldowns. However a healing specc would have CDs. They can't create a full support on 0 CDs or on initiative. It'd be either broken or not good enough. 

 

Thief cannot have a specc like scourge. Scourge completely ruins the game it's too broken and it does too much. If anything it partially needs gutting. 

 

Scourge also has trade offs. Low mobility. 

 

Something thief doesn't share, so it'd have to lose out else where.

 

Your thinking of a healer on thief gameplay. And I'm afraid that will never become a thing the elite would mechanically change to fit the narrative. 

 

thief has to have trade offs. 

 

You cant stack high mobility, ports, invisibility, support and damage into thief it would wildly overpowered. 

 

Thief has 0 cooldowns and it's kit because it's trade off is being selfish. That's the trade off its currently in. 

 

You remove being selfish it needs to lose something. And 0 CDs will be the loss here. We will go onto having CDs. Otherwise we will hit the game like chronomancer did and spend years being nerfed again and again. 

 

I'm afraid this concept won't be viable. It will be nerfed and wrecked. 

 

Look at chronomancer. It was susposed to be a healer / utility support. But because of the proffession mechanics it was wildly overpowered. 

 

It got nerfed to such a state it had to be reworked into a power DPS. 

 

So let's skip the 3 years of being benched and wrecked repeatively. And just skip to what we know the specc will end up as. 

 

On your not buying a expansion. 

 

Nothing will deter people from buying a expansion more then releasing their main classes elite specc underwhelming and useless. 

 

That's what support thief will be. It will be kicked under the rug faster then Deadeye. You have to consider elements of balancing here when your thinking of the elite specc you want. 

 

Thief will lose its unique gameplay if it becomes a support. There's no way it won't. You can't be a raid healer on a initiative bar. It's no longer strong enough after all the nerfs. 

 

We already have a healing traitline heal thief is a thing it's just bad. And that's the issue. 

 

It will never be balanced end of realistically. Heal thief don't work. The traitline would be sooo overloaded to push such a idea that every other part of thief would be gutted. 

 

The fact your asking for something near scourge level kinda proves the point here. No no one wants another scourge. It's broken. It's cheesy. It's bad and it's stupidly overpowered. 

 

How about nerf scourge. Lol litterally every raid  is like 8 scourge. We do not need more of this. 

 

Things like scourge existing. Will be the reason people don't buy the next expansion.. people consider it bad design and it is bad design. The speccs a litteral win button 

 

We have a healing traitline. We don't need 2. Without a offensive boon/utility supplier you will never be a full support thief. 

 

Druids tempests and firebrands all bring boons. 

 

We can't just bring healing. We already bring healing the problem is it's nerfed into the ground. And we have access to none of those boons. 

 

Make a case to buff the current healing build we have. We don't need another remake for history to repeat itself. 

 

Also it's all good saying to sell the game to someone who wants a heal thief. 

 

But what about thief Mains. No ones maining a thief to heal. Core traits will be nerfed to facilitate a healing thief. Because it has too much access to damage currently due to how thief currently is. 

 

How is wrecking the reason people have chosen thief for a new direction good for sales. Because people will quit over stuff like that. 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

your correct thief runs on 0 cooldowns. However a healing specc would have CDs. They can't create a full support on 0 CDs or on initiative. It'd be either broken or not good enough. 

 

Thief cannot have a specc like scourge. Scourge completely ruins the game it's too broken and it does too much. If anything it partially needs gutting. 

 

Scourge also has trade offs. Low mobility. 

 

Something thief doesn't share, so it'd have to lose out else where.

 

Your thinking of a healer on thief gameplay. And I'm afraid that will never become a thing the elite would mechanically change to fit the narrative. 

 

thief has to have trade offs. 

 

You cant stack high mobility, ports, invisibility, support and damage into thief it would wildly overpowered. 

 

Thief has 0 cooldowns and it's kit because it's trade off is being selfish. That's the trade off its currently in. 

 

You remove being selfish it needs to lose something. And 0 CDs will be the loss here. We will go onto having CDs. Otherwise we will hit the game like chronomancer did and spend years being nerfed again and again. 

 

I'm afraid this concept won't be viable. It will be nerfed and wrecked. 

 

Look at chronomancer. It was susposed to be a healer / utility support. But because of the proffession mechanics it was wildly overpowered. 

 

It got nerfed to such a state it had to be reworked into a power DPS. 

 

So let's skip the 3 years of being benched and wrecked repeatively. And just skip to what we know the specc will end up as. 

 

On your not buying a expansion. 

 

Nothing will deter people from buying a expansion more then releasing their main classes elite specc underwhelming and useless. 

 

That's what support thief will be. It will be kicked under the rug faster then Deadeye. You have to consider elements of balancing here when your thinking of the elite specc you want. 

 

Thief will lose its unique gameplay if it becomes a support. There's no way it won't. You can't be a raid healer on a initiative bar. It's no longer strong enough after all the nerfs. 

 

We already have a healing traitline heal thief is a thing it's just bad. And that's the issue. 

 

It will never be balanced end of realistically. Heal thief don't work. The traitline would be sooo overloaded to push such a idea that every other part of thief would be gutted. 

 

The fact your asking for something near scourge level kinda proves the point here. No no one wants another scourge. It's broken. It's cheesy. It's bad and it's stupidly overpowered. 

 

How about nerf scourge. Lol litterally every raid  is like 8 scourge. We do not need more of this. 

 

Things like scourge existing. Will be the reason people don't buy the next expansion.. people consider it bad design and it is bad design. The speccs a litteral win button 

 

We have a healing traitline. We don't need 2. Without a offensive boon/utility supplier you will never be a full support thief. 

 

Druids tempests and firebrands all bring boons. 

 

We can't just bring healing. We already bring healing the problem is it's nerfed into the ground. And we have access to none of those boons. 

 

Make a case to buff the current healing build we have. We don't need another remake for history to repeat itself. 

 

Also it's all good saying to sell the game to someone who wants a heal thief. 

 

But what about thief Mains. No ones maining a thief to heal. Core traits will be nerfed to facilitate a healing thief. Because it has too much access to damage currently due to how thief currently is. 

 

How is wrecking the reason people have chosen thief for a new direction good for sales. Because people will quit over stuff like that. 

 

your post makes my eyes bleed. not only this but who says they wont introduce a new mechanic like Deadeye had for Malice in order to gain healing power and still use initiative. you are just rambling

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

your post makes my eyes bleed. not only this but who says they wont introduce a new mechanic like Deadeye had for Malice in order to gain healing power and still use initiative. you are just rambling

 

its not ramble.. the concept of anything being a "pure" anything is bad game design, is Completely against flexibility and not only this doesnt synergize with Anything the thief currently has meaning that it'd require a HUGE rework much larger then just a new F1 ability. Current Initaitive is nerfed heavily which makes it at baseline VERY Weak hence why some traits are required in alot of thief builds.  Hybridization is the best option and its what thief currently lacks

 

Thief did have a Healing build. it was Gutted because anet decided we shouldnt be healing because of how effective it became in some areas of the game combined with the other strengths this proffession brings to the table.

 

to simply estimate the same thign will happen if they go round 2 is a Good one and chronomancer is fine example of what happens when u drive a TON of support into a Proffession which is built with such kill potiental as thief. it'd cause Major nerfs to core thief which is something that negatively impacts the viability of the entire class.

 

the issue is some are unable to see through the just sheer want for a specific thing they dont aknowledge the damage it does the proffession itself. Thief is in a bad place in pvE currently.. and they tried "pure Support" with tempest and chronomancer. One got reworked into a Power DPS because it was nerfed into Uselessness for a LOOONG time, the other is on the bench because THe game Litterally has NO NEED for a pure Support in ANY SENSE of the word. nothing in this game wants a Pure Role in the slightest. so why to push for one is unknown.. and dont act like a Rework as small as malice is what it'd take to give thief the synergy it needs to even fill such a role.

 

a Better option at what a hybrid could look like would be:

 

- Offhand Sword New Weapon.

 

3rd ability Dependent on Main hand choice

4th Ability - Deadly Dance - The Assassin Fades into the Shadows Appears with 2 Shadows at targetted Location and Cleaves targets infront of the Assassin 3 Times.

5th Ability Twin Blade - Creates Shadows of its Blades and throws them at the Target Doing a base amount of Damage and Crippling them

 

each ability upholds 0 CD but initative costs per use.

 

- Stances

 

Access to Stance share via Traits - Stance share Reduces the effectiveness of the Stances by a % But Makes the effects of Stances Group wide.

 

Utility A - Life Leech. With Stance share funnels Health to all members of group.

Utility B - Evasive Stance Shares - Allows Group to Evade for 2 seconds.

Utility C - Ninja Stance Gives Quickness - Stance share Gives group wide Quickness

Utility D - Block - Stance share gives Everyone Aegis.

Elite - Throws Shurkiens at Targets infront of the Assassin Transfering Enemies Boons to its allies

 

Trade offs:

 

Loses Weapon Swap. Instead gets Assassin Shadows. Each Shadow  lasts 8 Seconds and After use has a 12 Second CD

 

Assasin Shadows Summon a Shadow which mimics the Assassins attacks for 15% of the Assassins Damage Shadows Summoned influence the Assassins Weapon set during their active Periods. each lasting 8 seconds

 

F1 Assassins Vigil - Summons a Shadow for each Player in the assassins Group Which Applies Regen to each Target During this the Assassins Kit Leechs Life on each Strike healing allies.

 

F2 Assassins Dance - Summons a Shadow which Echos the Assassins Will Which spreads boons to Allies During this the assassins weapon kit becomes Whispers Applies various boons to allies During this period of time the Assassin loses Damage based abilities

 

F3 Assassins Will - Summons a  Shadow which gives its allies Protection During this the Assassins Kit becomes Defensive with blocks and Smaller Damage based Attacks which focus on Weakening and Slowing the target During this Period of time the Assassin will Lose 25% Movement speed

 

F4 Assassins Nature - Summons a Shadow Which Creates a Area of Smoke which allows allies to stealth via running through. During this Period of time the Assassin Gains a Weapon set with high CDs which allow the Assassin to burst the target. During this period of the time the Assassin can only attack from Stealth

 

this creates Pros and Cons to each ability

 

Loses access to Steal

 

Instead gains a F5 ability - Assassins Guise - Empowers the Assassins blades to regenerate Initiative With each successful Strike against the target for 6 seconds. 12 Second CD

 

That would WORK. its not a PURE healer. it doesnt need to be, NOTHING in this game Demands High healing capability. this sorta thing is only utilised in WvWvW.  theres no reason Giving us a Elite specc to sit on the bench with tempest for offering something the game doesnt utilise.

 

Unless im Misreading what the Person wants. they effectively want Thief to turn into something like what Tempest does for Elementalist. which is overload healing soo hard into the build. the issue here is Tempest is completely unwanted.. because this game doesnt need a Pure Support.

 

and the concept of putting other classes on the same power level as Scourge instead of nerfing Scourge down to where other classes are seems alien to me.. Scourge is Soo fundamentally broken the Power creeps need to Receed not Increase.

 

but if u make the actual Traitline heal based then u have a huge issue,  because we have nothing to combine it with. u need to hybridize the build. not Direct the build.. or this builds gonna Be one dimensional and Offer 0 Versatility in trade, not to mention be sooo overbloated will result in Nerfs to core thief. Which is something a Elite shouldnt be doing.

 

a build like this would have access to a Level of healing.. (which tbh the game doesnt exactly demand alot anyway) While hybridized enough to Suit up as a DPS Specc offering it a Needed level of Versatility to provide more then 1 job to it.

 

are we getting that? Likely not, i'd imagine we'll get something Far simplier. but Its better then any idea of "Pure Support" build could look like for this proffession. which is prolly will put thief as Eles Replacement on the Bench of "unwanted in all content"

 

this could even be a Brawler build in PvP + Giving thief a Option for WvWvW Group play. thus expanding the thiefs Role ability and not narrowing it down, a Much stronger Design to go ahead with.

 

Just to clarify, this was something I made up over a half hour period so don't question it's balancing as it's a example, I was just proving we don't need a one dimensional specc that can only do one specific thing to give thief's a larger role in PvE content. 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Caeledh.5437]

On 7/1/2021 at 11:54 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

its not ramble.. the concept of anything being a "pure" anything is bad game design

 

 

That's a perfect description of GW2.

 

Essentially pure DPS, with a measly scattering of control and healing.

 

Even worse, end-game group content is primarily melee DPS for every class, eg. in order to catch aoe heals and limited range buffs.

 

Even worse again at launch, only direct damage was worth anything because conditions didn't stack so GW2 was Bersererkville.

 

Thieves getting an elite spec with healing which isn't bogged down with CDs is not impossible.

 

On 7/1/2021 at 4:37 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

However a healing specc would have CDs. They can't create a full support on 0 CDs or on initiative. It'd be either broken or not good enough. 

 

Many games function without cooldowns at all, and Revenant's Ventari is largely CD free.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance

 

The 2 2 second CD's are almost nothing, and the other 2 are only 5 seconds.

 

One of those 5 second ones - aoe cleanse - is effectively undercut by a second aoe cleanse which is CD free.

 

So essentially the only CD limited ability is the shield. Which is visually gorgeous but not the sort of thing you need or want to pop on and off constantly.

 

I'd be happily playing Revenant, except that their other legends are bogged down in CDs and other janky mechanics. Especially the elites.

[Puck.3697]

10 minutes ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

Many games function without cooldowns at all, and Revenant's Ventari is largely CD free

 

its also iirc considered pretty kitten bad compared to other healers.. and if thats what we're going for With the thiefs new elite?.. ok? but for exactly what?.. if ur looking to be equal to ventari.. ur effectively asking for a Useless Elite.

 

10 minutes ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

Essentially pure DPS, with a measly scattering of control and healing.

 

wouldnt agree, Firebrand and Scourge prove they can get both into one quite easily.. Also mesmer has 0 pure DPS Speccs..

 

Alacrity Mirage, Quickness Chrono, Tank Chrono,.

 

10 minutes ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

Thieves getting an elite spec with healing which isn't bogged down with CDs is not impossible.

 

remember thief did have a heal build, it got nerfed into oblivion.. i feel like we have reasonable reason to realistically doubt what will happen if they try to do it once again.

 

i think with ventari being a core specc, its fine HOWEVER a elite entirely focused to doing 1 single thing? that will result into nerfing Thiefs current damage as elites have EVERY EXPANSION. yah. ur looking at damaging ur game.. that'll Litterally be torn apart in moments.

 

we just saw Imagery of mesmer.. teasing the idea of Losing the shatter mechanic... if they then just give Thief a basic Heal bot, yah.. its gonna go sour fast and Anet would know that.

 

ALSO

 

given the imagary is alike Shiroken from GW1, which does kinda back up the idea they'll create things based on GW1 assets of each Proffession....

 

imho. this expansions gonna be a GW1 Nostaglia Trip realistically and we're gonna see Proffessions basically get a Reiteration of Something big from GW1.. now Assassins Magical Mid range Assassin build from GW1 has NOTHING alike in GW2 and imho a Strong Guess at what thief would actually get.

 

if Warrior gets Monk with Staff. it pretty much confirms my suspicions here are well targetted. i think lots of people may not see how anet are effectively designing a nostalgia trip for GW1 fans. Since Classic the whole "go back to classic" hype has been huge and a discussion surrounding most MMORPGS currently. it wouldnt suprise me if anet are gonna try dipping their toes.

 

People who didnt see GW1. get to see it as Brand new content. Old players get Nostalgia and more where they see GW1 Reiterated on in GW2

 

judging by how much they just confirmed.. i Expect something MUCH larger for thief then a healbot. i think it'd be a Waste to cut that short on Thief suddenly after how much they've gotten so far.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Caeledh.5437]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

its also iirc considered pretty kitten bad compared to other healers..

But you acknowledge that the game has this thing - a healer with lots of heals not controlled by godawful cooldowns - which you said the game absolutely couldn't have.

 

Thank you for your admission of wrongness.

 

If revs suck compared to non-rev healers, that's not because rev heals lack cooldowns. It would only be because ANet want them to suck and have kitten their healing power.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:05 AM, Caeledh.5437 said:

I'd also love something more magically themed.

 

But the answer to your other question is obvious and something I explicitly addressed.

 

All other professions are COMPLETELY mechanically different. Most are entirely cooldown based and even revenant has a lot of them.

 

Personally I might appreciate and play a 100% support thief elite spec. A lot. But as I can and have spoken to here in relation to all elite specs, that degree and kind of specificity is not necessarily smart. Especially with thief. There are very likely many players who play this profession and no others, because they're so mechanically different.

 

Every thief elite spec which they might look at and see no added value in, greatly increases the chance that they don't buy the expansion and also possibly stop playing.

 

I'm one of those players. HoT looked thoroughly underwhelming as a thief main, and frankly the only reason I bought it was because I was drunk and thought you needed it to unlock gliding in WvW (I should probably start hiding my debit card when I do drunk raids). 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

We simply need Peripheral Vision to be applied additionally to Fire Fore Effect. it was a trait at one point but was removed...that was an amazing trait

[Caeledh.5437]

On 6/30/2021 at 7:18 AM, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Hmmm

 

A thief with support spec...I'm seeing sn OP duelist, still fastest decapper in competitive modes...

 

But extremely underwhelming support in pve.

 

 

I'd prefer a torch, and I am guessing that is what thief will get.

 

Torch would make a lot of sense for a healing / support thief weapon.

 

Fire has associations with protection, cleansing etc. etc.

[Caligrafers Blade.3871]

Thematically asking for a support role on a class called 'Thief' is odd to say the least. I mean I love this prof and I would like to contribute to squads/parties in all modes, but look at the previous elites: Daredevil, a solo acrobat, and Deadeye, a single-target sniper. Even basic thief traits don't exactly scream 'support' if we were to go down that path. One single line of new elite specs and new utilities just won't match what a rev, fb, scourge or even weaver bring to the table. So no, imo given it's Cantha, thematically we're getting some ninja or something with off-hand sword with focus on Acrobatics since that trait like is largely ignored. It's probably going to be poking and maybe an area-nullification or something.      

[xDuckYx.4920]

A perma stealth healer thief which can heal every1 in radius of 1200 range to full hp every 5 seconds would fit the already absurd OP class no? 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

My main worry would be that whatever they do support wise is going to be countered by D/P daredevil, like deadeye largely is. Whatever they introduce has to be able to stand toe to toe with D/P daredevil to be viable in competitive modes, we've had 6 years of that being the most effective competitive build and having it shut down the majority of other thief builds and I'm tired of playing it already. 

[Vornollo.5182]

Personally I don't think it's too thematically fitting for Thief to provide support.

Some semi-/off support, sure. But not as a focus.

I'm also a big fan of the Thief as more of a practical character, instead of a magical one.

 

My ideal elite spec for Thief is (a return to) the once advertised deadly duelist.

Duelist/Bruiser type, Sword/Axe off-hand (because yet another two-handed Elite Spec weapon is a real cop-out after what Tempest got). Sacrificing Stealth almost entirely would be a fair compensation, if handled well...

Heck. Since it will need to counter D/P, give it some ridiculous trait where every third hit in an auto-chain reveals what they hit, lmao. (I'm not super serious about that idea, no.)

 

I'd be happy with a more magically inclined Thief with support for a focus, but the spec is either going to be ridiculously OP as they're picking up bodies from certain death left, right and center, all while stealthing and displacing everyone from any dangerous situation. Which wouldn't be fun for anyone long-term. Not the Thieves playing it, or those fighting it (plus easily countered by D/P Daredevil). Or it's going to be extremely underwhelming and overshadowed by existing supports easily.

I like some ideas that have been floating around where Stealth is instead functioning as some sort of Druid's Celestial Avatar. Could be pretty interesting.

But yeah. I just don't think that's a route that fits the Thief archetype.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Vornollo.5182
Fun D/P shenanigans getting tiresome, sometimes. Bit of a joke though.

[Salvatore.3749]

I know I responded on a different thread, but I definitely see Thief getting a great sword (to keep in line with the 2-handed weapon release for each spec), and then something that provides combo fields for blast finishers. 

 

Given the history of Elite Spec releases, Rifle, and Staff,  are both 2-handed weapons, and both were released for the elite specs. In actuality, both weapons made sense with the new elite spec. I think great sword is the next logical choice for the new thief elite spec's because core thief doesn't have high damage weapons without the elite spec, the new Canthan release, and the fact that thief traditionally receives high damage 2-handed weapons. ANET does use some logic with spec releases and expansions. That is why hammer does not fit into a Canthan theme with thief, and thief is too squishy. Longbow would be odd. Although LB could be cool for range support, the problem is whether thief becomes a water downed version of ranger with no real ability to provide support. That's why I think GS with combo fields that provide stealth, healing, boons, conditions, etc., would be logical. GS would likely be more support oriented with the ability to cleave in 1v1 in PvP, WvW, and then be viable in PvE. 

 

Unless they went brand new and provided thief's new spec with spear, I don't see any other logical weapon choice. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

what they could do is Stealth no longer applies stealth, but instead gives a NEW grandmaster trait SHADOW FORM which reduces all strike and condition damage when applied by a GREAT amount(has to be very powerful as far as guild wars 1)...but with the trait we can give stealth to allies which turns into Shadowform...all shadow arts traits could apply this and...with this being said all shadow arts traits that benefit stealth could benefit Shadowform.  regeneration, revive speed...the whole nine yards. 

 

how many smoke fields and blasts do we have?!...yeah i can see this being a great work around

Well, with Shadowform, how do you access stealth attacks...well, itll still flip in shadowform but harder to land the Shadow Attacks because they can see you comin..ya know?