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Should thief mains ask for a support spec as next elite?


Axl.8924

The new elite as support yay or nay?  

84 members have voted

  1. 1. So i was wondering since Thiefs get to do +1 and roaming, and we get left out in WVW and as a role of suppot, should we focus on asking for a support spec as next elite?

    • Yes, we need more choices for thief perhaps improvement.
    • No i'd rather something else specify.


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6 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

what they could do is Stealth no longer applies stealth, but instead gives a NEW grandmaster trait SHADOW FORM which reduces all strike and condition damage when applied by a GREAT amount(has to be very powerful as far as guild wars 1)

This would work well with my thief tank idea. CS with Signet's of Power and Signet of Shadows combined with the vast selection of AoEs my idea brings. Tag everything, get Shadowform each kill and cast the ground targeted stealth attack which applies burning.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: pros

- adds more variety to the class

- possibly different role in group content (fractals, raid, wvw, even pvp)

- different role might lead to the class being less hated by the community in general

- different role might lead to Anet review thief as whole and maybe, just maybe stop pigeonholing us into +1 pet role with wet noodle damage looking for scraps and relying on team to do all the job

 

Might elite spec break current builds? Yes, it will. It will also do it regardless the type of the spec, be it support or not. They want to sell xpac after all.

 

I also see no reason why they can't add some kind of new mechanic for "support" thieves like they did with barriers for scourge or quickness/alac for chronos.

Edited by Cynz.9437
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On 6/11/2021 at 10:57 AM, TwiceDead.1963 said:

These discussions always seem like "Thief doesn't have support. We should add support because it doesn't have any!" without regarding how the rest of the traits and utilities fit into that mindset.

 

The only trait trees with KINDA support options is Shadow Arts and Trickery. Shadow Arts in one very particular niche of stealth and SS healing, and Trickery in terms of boon-support inside a 360 radius which is dependent on EVERYONE hugging either the Target or the Thief, where the latter is kind of impossible considering how much Thief has to move around to stay alive. The two don't really even synergize well. The healing potential is starved by Initiative and how many shadow steps you can accurately pull off, and the boon support is only in play every 25th second.

 

The point is that you have to work your kitten off on thief to make a support build KINDA work but for meager results, while in comparison the other classes already have a ton of support and utility options with forgiving radiuses already built into their core trees WITHOUT relying on elites.

 

The only real solution to that is to overload the new elite tree with so many support options it becomes busted from the get-go, and we know where it goes from there.

 

Also something I'm surprised more people haven't thought about.

 

Last thing we need is some perma-stealth buffer in smallscale that makes someone else broken and impossible to kill/they get resurrected (unnecessary since thief is self-sufficient anyways) that ends up useless in large engagements (already true now), or so overpowered it breaks the game from a support spec, and/or lets D/P invariably be a big stat stick with permanent stealth and control over a fight more than anything else, too.

 

They'd have to rework most of the traits in the game for thief to get a support elite that is either not a totally wasted spec or absolutely busted.

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Ninja medic perma stealth with mercy runes already a rez thief which is fun and easy to use. Either as core, Deadeye or Daredevil. Venomshare life leech thief aight too. I'm glad with these support options tbh. 

 

Ofc they can get unique with a support spec for thief, but I don't know if it is suitable. Maybe some shadowmancer caster as people have suggested before? Dunno. 

 

I much prefer oh sword assassin with stances and a power focused non-stealth, non-evade stacked bruiser. 

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They should ask for more health... Every time I redownload the game longing for the GW2 experience pre HoT... I get revealed by rock paper scissors engineer skills and then die in less then a second to ONE skill that does 90% my hp in a 5 vs 5... Then I say this is stupid. And delete the game.

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On 7/21/2021 at 6:15 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

Also something I'm surprised more people haven't thought about.

 

Last thing we need is some perma-stealth buffer in smallscale that makes someone else broken and impossible to kill/they get resurrected (unnecessary since thief is self-sufficient anyways) that ends up useless in large engagements (already true now), or so overpowered it breaks the game from a support spec, and/or lets D/P invariably be a big stat stick with permanent stealth and control over a fight more than anything else, too.

 

They'd have to rework most of the traits in the game for thief to get a support elite that is either not a totally wasted spec or absolutely busted.

Maybe it's already been suggested but a new support trait line could allow stealth application as usual but turn Stealth into Pace or Tempo or something that instead of sleathing you would give off a radius of Quickness or Alacrity or something. That's along with whatever the meat of the Elite Spec would be. Instead of engaging and disengaging at a high rate we'd have to keep up the momentum of skill use and positioning but could give us some sustain to move with the group while supporting them, where currently I tether mostly to keep safe but also because most of my skills I support with work better at a supporting angle. 

 

That might have it's own problems but I'm thinking of making sure it's fun to play but also not making Stealth more problematic. At least enemy players wouldn't have to worry about perma-stealth. I think even a support Elite should keep us active and moving or orienting instead of just being a buff bot, so I'd hope that if we did get a support Elite that our skills and mechanics would again, be fun to play and with deliberate thought. 

Edited by kash.9213
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8 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Maybe it's already been suggested but a new support trait line could allow stealth application as usual but turn Stealth into Pace or Tempo or something that instead of sleathing you would give off a radius of Quickness or Alacrity or something. That's along with whatever the meat of the Elite Spec would be. Instead of engaging and disengaging at a high rate we'd have to keep up the momentum of skill use and positioning but could give us some sustain to move with the group while supporting them, where currently I tether mostly to keep safe but also because most of my skills I support with work better at a supporting angle. 

 

That might have it's own problems but I'm thinking of making sure it's fun to play but also not making Stealth more problematic. At least enemy players wouldn't have to worry about perma-stealth. I think even a support Elite should keep us active and moving or orienting instead of just being a buff bot, so I'd hope that if we did get a support Elite that our skills and mechanics would again, be fun to play and with deliberate thought. 

 

So like... AoE Lead Attacks?

 

Because I can't realistically see how this really benefits the thief at all when initiative isn't affected by Alacrity/Chill.  All I really see is it more or less rewarding spam.  Alternatively, if the support or damage isn't really good enough it's just a worse mesmer.

 

Plus what's exactly stopping it being exploited by permastealth?  With something like Lead Attacks tied to initiative use, a thief could just sit there whiffing/stacking stealth while in combat.  If it's based on needing to hit the target, it'll be phased out when other specs can just start earlier at full power or because it'll get denied by untargetable/immune phases.

 

I dunno, I don't think there's a good way to make thief get decent and unique support outside of my original DE proposal.  Unfortunately though that ship has sailed.

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I saw on another thread about ninja elite and was just imagining a thief running around using smoke bombs to give other people stealth, maybe they have a acid grenade that allows to avoid ranged attack and maybe traps that you place down which give you swiftness and hurts enemies and having a throwing star as new weapon. That sounds like it could be kinda cool.

Edited by Axl.8924
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1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

I saw on another thread about ninja elite and was just imagining a thief running around using smoke bombs to give other people stealth, maybe they have a acid grenade that allows to avoid ranged attack and maybe traps that you place down which give you swiftness and hurts enemies and having a throwing star as new weapon. That sounds like it could be kinda cool.

 

Basically the skill "Smoke Screen😂.. Destroys projectiles, can give stealth to allies if blasted (normally with shortbow) and blinds enemies so we can run away

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2 hours ago, Demonhead.7584 said:

 

Basically the skill "Smoke Screen😂.. Destroys projectiles, can give stealth to allies if blasted (normally with shortbow) and blinds enemies so we can run away

Right but i'm talking about smoke screen team based with destruction of projectiles for team support plus swiftness access maybe giving ferocity buff to the whole team as support.

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13 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

So like... AoE Lead Attacks?

 

Because I can't realistically see how this really benefits the thief at all when initiative isn't affected by Alacrity/Chill.  All I really see is it more or less rewarding spam.  Alternatively, if the support or damage isn't really good enough it's just a worse mesmer.

 

Plus what's exactly stopping it being exploited by permastealth?  With something like Lead Attacks tied to initiative use, a thief could just sit there whiffing/stacking stealth while in combat.  If it's based on needing to hit the target, it'll be phased out when other specs can just start earlier at full power or because it'll get denied by untargetable/immune phases.

 

I dunno, I don't think there's a good way to make thief get decent and unique support outside of my original DE proposal.  Unfortunately though that ship has sailed.

You wouldn't get to stealth anymore. You apply the new version the same way, and put whatever radius support we want, we can even turtle everyone up with something.

Edited by kash.9213
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5 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

You wouldn't get to stealth anymore. You apply the new version the same way, and put whatever radius support we want, we can even turtle everyone up with something.

 

Kinda goes back to the above, though - If it dies faster than Chrono/FB, why take it?

If stealth is not gained, what do we do with SA, sneak attacks, and a significant chunk of utility skills? 

 

I can't really think of an implementation that actually works in terms of a direct buffer support.

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1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

Kinda goes back to the above, though - If it dies faster than Chrono/FB, why take it?

If stealth is not gained, what do we do with SA, sneak attacks, and a significant chunk of utility skills? 

 

I can't really think of an implementation that actually works in terms of a direct buffer support.

I'm not writing a book about it, I was throwing out quick examples of what a new mechanic could look like that could address some problems. All that kitten that goes off from stealth would still go off from the application. Then fill out the rest of the elite. You're very literal, that makes it difficult to just think up stuff with you. 

Edited by kash.9213
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On 7/26/2021 at 11:28 PM, kash.9213 said:

I'm not writing a book about it, I was throwing out quick examples of what a new mechanic could look like that could address some problems. All that kitten that goes off from stealth would still go off from the application. Then fill out the rest of the elite. You're very literal, that makes it difficult to just think up stuff with you. 

 

tbh imho i think heres the big problem

 

how many PURE healing builds are actually utilised in raids? the Encounters in PvE Are built numbers Hybrid builds exceed, U dont need a Pure healer, u dont need a Pure DPS And u dont need a Pure Tank. because the game Doesnt demand enough from individual Roles to require anyone of that specialization into one role.

 

Tank chrono isnt meta because its the "Best at taking dmg". its meta because of its Role compression.

 

Healing Druids arent meta for their healing output. they meta for Spirits and Roots they can supply to the group.

 

Scourge, Firebrand and more arent meta because their Pure DPS.. they're meta because they bring good DPS with bundles of Utility.

 

this game Doesnt need Pure anything.. no one wants Pure anything, and people can say "yah in top 1%". well a large bulk of players build opinons on what to use and not to use based on that top 1%. they follow those metas and they Dont deter from it because they treat the pros words like absolute gold.

 

the Best builds... are the most flexible and hybridized builds effectively, they are the ones that time and time again succeed in every catagory of the game.

 

Healing builds are mainly used as hybrids because this game doesnt demand enough from individual roles to ever require something beyond a hybrid and ti never will. the game was never designed for the trinity it was designed to allow anyone to kill anything wiht any comp.. therefore the requirements for every role need to be the bare minimum so balancing never becomes problematic.

 

so yeah.. give thief healing.. give thief barrier, allow more access to boons. but allow that traitline to be diverse in what it can do.. allow DPS builds to exist through it.. dont make the new elite 2 dimensional and only have 1 goal. the ydid that with weaver and it flopped HARD.

 

 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

tbh imho i think heres the big problem

 

how many PURE healing builds are actually utilised in raids? the Encounters in PvE Are built numbers Hybrid builds exceed, U dont need a Pure healer, u dont need a Pure DPS And u dont need a Pure Tank. because the game Doesnt demand enough from individual Roles to require anyone of that specialization into one role.

 

Tank chrono isnt meta because its the "Best at taking dmg". its meta because of its Role compression.

 

Healing Druids arent meta for their healing output. they meta for Spirits and Roots they can supply to the group.

 

Scourge, Firebrand and more arent meta because their Pure DPS.. they're meta because they bring good DPS with bundles of Utility.

 

this game Doesnt need Pure anything.. no one wants Pure anything, and people can say "yah in top 1%". well a large bulk of players build opinons on what to use and not to use based on that top 1%. they follow those metas and they Dont deter from it because they treat the pros words like absolute gold.

 

the Best builds... are the most flexible and hybridized builds effectively, they are the ones that time and time again succeed in every catagory of the game.

 

Healing builds are mainly used as hybrids because this game doesnt demand enough from individual roles to ever require something beyond a hybrid and ti never will. the game was never designed for the trinity it was designed to allow anyone to kill anything wiht any comp.. therefore the requirements for every role need to be the bare minimum so balancing never becomes problematic.

 

so yeah.. give thief healing.. give thief barrier, allow more access to boons. but allow that traitline to be diverse in what it can do.. allow DPS builds to exist through it.. dont make the new elite 2 dimensional and only have 1 goal. the ydid that with weaver and it flopped HARD.

 

 

I agree mostly. Daredevil and Deadeye can both stretch a bit in combat offensively and defensively without having to drop combat to change template if they don't specialize into a gimmick and while they're not as intense in either compared to other classes, they have intuitive and deliberate answers to a range of problems. Again that's why I think whatever we get still has to have that tangible thief feel.

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1 minute ago, kash.9213 said:

I agree mostly. Daredevil and Deadeye can both stretch a bit in combat offensively and defensively without having to drop combat to change template if they don't specialize into a gimmick and while they're not as intense in either compared to other classes, they have intuitive and deliberate answers to a range of problems. Again that's why I think whatever we get still has to have that tangible thief feel.

 

tbh im almost certain its gonna be assassin.

 

They've stated all Elites have Deep roots to GW1 (canthan lore).

 

Assassins is litterally the only tie Thief has to canthian Lore, i think its gonna have some level of Support ability. but no way arnet they dropping assassin on us realistically. also.

 

The symbol of the Dual Swords with the 3 Stars is ALOT closer to assassins then u think, Dual Swords hinting at the additional weapon off hand Sword

 

3 Stars - was used as the representation of Assasins combo abilities.

 

I almost feel confident enough to put money on that being assassin tbh.

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