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It's been over 5 years. Can we remove Enrage Timers already?


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On 6/6/2021 at 3:42 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

There are auto attack builds for nearly every class which provide mire than enough dps with minimal effort. I call bs.

While i agree that this is true, in these cases i think perception matters way more then reality. If people don't raid because they believe metabuilds are necessary then it doesn't really matter that that isnt true.

 

It is pretty annoying though that misinformation gets spread so easily;

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This has been a raid boss feature since raids came out, but it has done nothing other than alienate players from raids.   This feature actively changes the focus of raids from working togeth

I have a good suggestion for you: Go back to PvE look at the nice views in all of Tyria enjoy the landscape! It is really nice. Also it does not really challenge you and you can just walk through it.

Maybe move the enrage timer to the challenge mode only for players who appreciate an extra challenge.

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Neither is Covid a good comparison.

The majority of players also have accessibility issues with dungeons before the difficulty nerf. 

But did they have accessibility issues at the time when dungeons got abandoned? Were they suffering from lack of players at that moment, or was the reason for devs abandoning that content a spaghetti code they were built on?

 

I mean, seriously, raids were abandoned by devs, because, according to them, not enough players were doing them. In case of dungeons, devs had to intentionally nerf rewards in order to chase players out of that content. It's not really comparable at all.

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On 6/6/2021 at 2:42 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Given recent non raid content has also seen timers implemented, likely for the same reason raids have them (aka preventing exploitation or over-stacking of tank compositions), and given timers in raids have been a thing since forever: I doubt you will see any change here.

Kinda disagree you gonna kill pretty much any boss way before the enrage timer by stacking qFBs.

Maybe q2 will be a bit weird but the rest will be fine

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3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

But did they have accessibility issues at the time when dungeons got abandoned? Were they suffering from lack of players at that moment, or was the reason for devs abandoning that content a spaghetti code they were built on?

 

I mean, seriously, raids were abandoned by devs, because, according to them, not enough players were doing them. In case of dungeons, devs had to intentionally nerf rewards in order to chase players out of that content. It's not really comparable at all.

Dungeons wasn't nerfed to chase players out of that content, it was nerfed to balance reward with its difficulty reduced due to expansion specs, before expansion, there is always accessibility issues for the majority of players.

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4 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Oh    My   God.

Every time; and I mean every single time I come into this forum and suggest something that could make a part of the game more accessible. In comes you people, to basically say "I'm not effected by this, therefore it's not a problem."

I could quote every response, but let's save some time and address the over all ideas:

- "Enrage timers are not a problem" Then baby why are you here? If you and the people you play with can kill a boss without it getting enraged, this in fact does not affect you. So why do you care whether or not it's part of the boss fight? Why are you over here deconstructing my suggestion when it won't affect you?

- "People are going to run cheesy builds" So what? If 10 people want to get together and act a fool in a boss raid for 2 hours. What's it to you? That's their prerogative. You're not going to be invited to that group anyway, and if somehow you get bamboozled into joining a team like that you can just leave. Leaving a team is free and you can do it any time.

- "It's gonna be too easy" No one explicitly said this, but it was there in between the lines. Even though I explicitly said that more challenging versions of the bosses should be made available for whose who want it, AND that they should get more rewards for their efforts.

- "They should have gotten better over the last 5 years." They can't get better if they can't participate in it , you twits.

- "There are dps build that you can just auto attack and produce enough dps." Baby don't jut say that. Drop the build! In fact let's not just talk the talk here, let's go ahead and  walk the walk. Show the video where a team killed a raid boss while only auto attacking. Meaning they are only using one skill, and in the instance of the Vale Guarding for example, they are producing over 22k damage in less than 8 minutes. I never seen it, so I would love to have a look.

 

You people are so busy stroking the hard on you get over the fact you can do something that other people can't in game, that you fail to realize that in a game like guild wars 2 , having a feature as big as raids inaccessible to the majority of players is considered a FAILURE. There's are no monthly subscriptions here, so content they put out needs to support enough people to keep them coming back and eventually spend money on gems and expansions. Failing to  address issues, specially that of accessibility, will only make said features obsolete. Like dungeons , which have many issues  and could use a whole thread of it's own.

Enrage timers keep people from participating in raids. That's a fact. Whether you agree with it or not doesn't change it.

Also note that none of you. NONE; Responded with an alternate solution to the accessibility problem. You just tried to break my suggestion down. Which is just another example elitist attitude I was talking about.

You did not come up to this topic to ask for suggestions of an accessibility problem. You come up here to criticize a game mechanic that serves as an indicator of a content requirement.

Which also explains why you never able to overcome it for the last 5 years despite various difficulty nerfs and easy guides available that already served as the most viable solution.

Edited by Vilin.8056
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Unless people are actually doing raids and consistently hitting the enrage timers, changing them isn’t going to do a thing. The primary cause of wipes is due to one or more players failing mechanics.  When you take the total time available for the fights, and the bosses’ health points, you’ll see that the actual minim DPS to succeed is significantly lower than what average raiders do. Unfortunately the longer the fight goes on, the more mechanics players have to deal with. 

Edited by Ayrilana.1396
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18 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You did not come up to this topic to ask for suggestions of an accessibility problem. You come up here to criticize a game mechanic that serves as an indicator of a content requirement.

Which also explains why you never able to overcome it for the last 5 years despite various difficulty nerfs and easy guides available that already served as the most viable solution.

You are right, I didn't ask for suggestions, but by providing one you would have made the argument that my suggestion is bad more cogent.

Secondly if you went back and read my original post, you would see that I never said I couldn't do it, I say people couldn't do it. Despite your assumptions, this isn't about me. It's about people I know and spoken with who have given up trying to participate in raids, for the reasons I listed in said post.

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On 6/5/2021 at 10:38 PM, Vilin.8056 said:

I'm more wondering why enrage timer is still an issue in 2021?

 

But sure, let's bring 5 heal scourges and cheese every Raid out like it's world boss.

Yes please (no sarcarm).

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1 hour ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

You are right, I didn't ask for suggestions, but by providing one you would have made the argument that my suggestion is bad more cogent.

Secondly if you went back and read my original post, you would see that I never said I couldn't do it, I say people couldn't do it. Despite your assumptions, this isn't about me. It's about people I know and spoken with who have given up trying to participate in raids, for the reasons I listed in said post.

Here are your accessibility ideas, if they learn the mecahnics and use a coherent build, the enrage timer isn't an issue. If your goal is to be able to just force through the content by spamming sustain then you don't even have any point at all.

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4 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

You are right, I didn't ask for suggestions, but by providing one you would have made the argument that my suggestion is bad more cogent.

Secondly if you went back and read my original post, you would see that I never said I couldn't do it, I say people couldn't do it. Despite your assumptions, this isn't about me. It's about people I know and spoken with who have given up trying to participate in raids, for the reasons I listed in said post.

First, you are not making a suggestion, you're trashing a generally accepted game design starting with the topic.

Second, I have made an valid argument why your point don't work, but in your rage you simply don't think on it.

Third, I didn't say you couldn't do it,  I said you couldn't overcome why it exist.

And finally the most important purpose of an enrage timer isn't to encourage elitism, but rather to reduce potential health risk induced by playing in high adrenaline actions for over a long period of time.

Edited by Vilin.8056
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Well it would have been much more sense if Arena.NET would have made 3 different modes for raids: easy, normal , hard

Easy without enrage timer.

 

It also reminds me the main reason we have ArcDPS is that we have enrage timers in Raids -.-

Because of this I was also thorn apart about this inside because I know dps-meters only as d-meters from other games 😕

 

I remember a near endless thread about this.

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3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

No but it was accepted because of this it was a really compelling argument

That also is not true.

 

Arcdps does far more than just provide dps information. In fact, the dps information it provides is probably one of the least useful features.

 

The more useful features which arcdps provides include, but are not limited to:

- boon uptime and boon source

- a complete combat replay with positioning of each player and each enemy

- an overview over cleanses and strips

- a complete overview over which mechanics were missed or successfully completed by each player

- a complete overview over exact skills used by each player (as well as skills cancelled)

- cc done by each player

 

Pretty much all of these features are far harder to analyze retroactively, especially the positioning which is immensely useful when trying to teach raids/fractals to new players, without arcdps and a proper combat log.

 

Pretty much all of those features are far more important than the dps done.

 

Even in this games infancy of raiding, the initial damage meters which existed, and arc was NOT the primary choice back then, were far more useful to analyze anything BUT damage done.

 

Damage done is in fact the most straightforward visible thing in this game because the boss life bar and time passed is very easy to track. Boon uptime, cc, positioning, etc. are all fer more important aspects to analyze and have always been far more important.

 

Please don't make stuff up just to make things up. Timers have nothing to do with damage meters and vice versa besides that both have some relationship to time passing.

 

EDIT:

and here is some advice to any aspiring raiders and fractal players:

If you do start using a damage meter, make sure to also read the logs. Start paying attention to EVERYTHING but the damage done, starting with boon uptime and damage taken and moving over to the graphical representations of the fight and cc as well as mechanics failed. Once you read those and understand those as well as improve in these areas, the damage of your group and yourself will be more than sufficient for all content currently in this game.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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14 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

It also reminds me the main reason we have ArcDPS is that we have enrage timers in Raids -.-

Because of this I was also thorn apart about this inside because I know dps-meters only as d-meters from other games 😕

Totally wrong. Why would still arcdps be still around if it was true? Its not like if reaching enrage time is a common thing these days...

 

Arcdps is mainly a tool to better yourself. It's rare that arcdps is used to filter out players for their dps and i believe is players kicked for low dps were having arcdps they would have gone fix their build/gear and practice their rotation prior to joining a raiding group.

So yeah imo the only bad thing about arc is the fact that it is not built in the game 😕

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If you cant do enough dps to skip enrage timers, you are doing something wrong. You can do competitive DPS by just autoattacking.

Shameless plug - 


And if you don't believe it works in raids heres a few examples, I have done it many times 
https://dps.report/DHSJ-20210601-223848_dei
https://dps.report/rSgG-20210601-170253_xera

Raids are meant to be hard. You aren't meant to stack 10 tanks and get through, you just need to get good 😍

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22 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

you're trashing a generally accepted game design

Considering that "generally" players do not raid, i wouldn't be so sure of that one.

Hint: it is not "generally accepted". It's (fr the most part) accepted within a very narrow community.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering that "generally" players do not raid, i wouldn't be so sure of that one.

Hint: it is not "generally accepted". It's (fr the most part) accepted within a very narrow community.

Seeing 80% of the population don't even get past 1400 AP, we are all part of a very narrow community.

Edited by Vilin.8056
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1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering that "generally" players do not raid, i wouldn't be so sure of that one.

Hint: it is not "generally accepted". It's (fr the most part) accepted within a very narrow community.

It's generally accepted by people that want/ed to raid in the first place, the rest isn't turned away from raiding "because enrage", so your enlightened response seems irrelevant and meaningless.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's generally accepted by people that want/ed to raid in the first place, the rest isn't turned away from raiding "because enrage", so your enlightened response seems irrelevant and meaningless.

Yes, the general design of raids is "generally accepted" by the people that like this kind of design. That's pretty much a tautology. It still doesn't change that it's not something that is "generally accepted" but merely something accepted by a relatively small part of the whole community.

 

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Seeing 80% of the population don't even get past 1400 AP, we are all part of a very narrow community.

Well, in that case we're talking about a very narrow part of even that.

Although i would not consider most of those below 1400 AP players to be part of GW2 population, because people that do not play this game can hardly be considered to belong to it - and most of those accounts are likely people that dropped this game long ago, after trying it for a short while only.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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34 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, the general design of raids is "generally accepted" by the people that like this kind of design. That's pretty much a tautology. It still doesn't change that it's not something that is "generally accepted" but merely something accepted by a relatively small part of the whole community.

*that kind of content.

This content isn't equivalent to this design (this is still about the enrage timer) and vice-versa. The enrage timer is just a small part of it and pretending that people do or do not play this content because of enrage is just false. So yes, it is being said about people that actually want to play that type of content in the first place where enrage timer is generally accepted and your approach doesn't make much sense here.

 

Edited by Sobx.1758
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1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, in that case we're talking about a very narrow part of even that.

Although i would not consider most of those below 1400 AP players to be part of GW2 population, because people that do not play this game can hardly be considered to belong to it - and most of those accounts are likely people that dropped this game long ago, after trying it for a short while only.

And why should we even care who you consider to be part of the population or not?

In that perspective people who do raid training who happens to care about the enrage timer are too narrow to be a concern in the raider community. And the rest of people who don't raid are already comfortable with the fact that every open world boss events comes with a timer. Therefore it is still never an issue.

 

Edited by Vilin.8056
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On 6/10/2021 at 9:27 AM, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Secondly if you went back and read my original post, you would see that I never said I couldn't do it, I say people couldn't do it. Despite your assumptions, this isn't about me. It's about people I know and spoken with who have given up trying to participate in raids, for the reasons I listed in said post.

If someone were to put up a poll that said "Why don't you raid?"

And the options were:
1. Gear/Build Requirement

2. Insta-kill/One Shot Mechanics

3. Toxic Community/Team Mates

4, Time Requirement

5. Enrage Timers

 

How many "people" do you realistically think would vote Option 5?

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