It's been over 5 years. Can we remove Enrage Timers already?

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Wait, you're pretending you're "indulging" in anything here?

 

You literally dodged the main part of the post:

What exactly was the power creep to those base classes between 2014 and now? The main power creep came with especs. And since they go "out of the window" on builds with level 78, it's irrelevant. And seeing how balance changes are more often NERFS than anything else... Let's go, where's that power creep comming from in that video? Even moreso for undergeared levels 78? 🙃 

 

🤔

i said you can not disprove someone's claim with something that is after the time period of said false claim.

you do not show a moon landing from 2025 when someone claims that in 1980 mankind was never able to get to the moon. you show him the moon landings during that time period or better yet the first moon landing in 1968 long before the time he claimed people were not able to go to the moon.
it doesn't matter that this video exists as it s done in may 2021, the claim was that people could not do raids in 2014 and that only through power creep are only possible now. then you do NOT show a video from AFTER the time period that supposed power creep happened, BUT BEFORE that.
THIS IS WHY that video is a non argument and it doesn't help that the guys in the video are 24/7 raiders either. cause this is after all STILL a thread talking about removal of the enrage timer, a topic started by a very obvious average GW2 player and not an experienced raider.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

i said you can not disprove someone's claim with something that is after the time period of said false claim.

you do not show a moon landing from 2025 when someone claims that in 1980 mankind was never able to get to the moon. you show him the moon landings during that time period or better yet the first moon landing in 1968 long before the time he claimed people were not able to go to the moon.

But you can prove it by using technology and materials available in 1980 and doing that would prove it was possible. Meanwhile you saying "it doesn't count, because the year doesn't match" is hilariously wrong (again) and another example of denial for the sake of not admitting you're wrong.

 

Quote

it doesn't matter that this video exists as it s done in may 2021, the claim was that people could not do raids in 2014 and that only through power creep are only possible now. then you do NOT show a video from AFTER the time period that supposed power creep happened, BUT BEFORE that.
THIS IS WHY that video is a non argument and it doesn't help that the guys in the video are 24/7 raiders either. cause this is after all STILL a thread talking about removal of the enrage timer, a topic started by a very obvious average GW2 player and not an experienced raider.

You're still dodging the actual question, so I'll just copy-paste again what's already in the previous post:

(because the question wasn't "what's the difference between the numbers "2014" and "2021"?", the question was "outside of especs, that aren't included in that video... WHAT POWER CREEP EXACTLY?" )

 

Stop dodging and squirming so hard, it's sad.

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[CasualElitist.8795]

1 hour ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

but they do cause the people in the video are NOT the average player, they literally do speed run raid tournaments.

And who literally does speedruns? Because I only see Mela who used to be in SC and did speedruns before. Teapot is organizing speedrun tournaments but not participating himself. The rest is just random players from his discord.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 6/23/2021 at 11:37 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Being able to bunker down isn’t going to help them if they fail mechanics. 

Depends on mechanics. VG overheal strat shows, that it is very much possible to skip at least some of those this way. Bunkering down also makes dealing with some other mechanics that cannot be skipped much easier. The problem would be with the dps-based ones, though - bunkering down (if there's no enrage/enrage-style mechanics) would be viable only on some of the bosses. Not on all of them. For that you'd have to remove/adjust any mechanics where you need to kill something/deal enough damage within a certain time.

 

For example the most dps-based raid encounter around - twin largos - is that way mainly because of the enrage-like mechanic (timers on platforms). Otherwise bunkering down on that encounter would have been an extremely viable approach.

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What exactly was the power creep to those base classes between 2014 and now? The main power creep came with especs. And since they go "out of the window" on builds with level 78, it's irrelevant. And seeing how balance changes are more often NERFS than anything else... Let's go, where's that power creep comming from in that video? Even moreso for undergeared levels 78? 🙃 

Well, one thing you can see in that video right away is Quickness and Alacrity. Pre-HoT, Quickness was extremely limited boon (available only from time warp), and Alacrity didn't even exist. Overall boon situation is now way better than it was in the core - a lot of boon generation was added not only in especs, but also to core skills/traits since then.

 

(although i do agree that the difference between core and now is probably way overstated, and it wasn't as massive as some claim)

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Ayrilana.1396]

23 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Depends on mechanics. VG overheal strat shows, that it is very much possible to skip at least some of those this way. Bunkering down also makes dealing with some other mechanics that cannot be skipped much easier. The problem would be with the dps-based ones, though - bunkering down (if there's no enrage/enrage-style mechanics) would be viable only on some of the bosses. Not on all of them. For that you'd have to remove/adjust any mechanics where you need to kill something/deal enough damage within a certain time.

 

For example the most dps-based raid encounter around - twin largos - is that way mainly because of the enrage-like mechanic (timers on platforms). Otherwise bunkering down on that encounter would have been an extremely viable approach.

 

Of course it depends.  I wasn't saying that there would be no mechanics which could be ignored by having players bunker.  While bunkering wouldn't help with DPS based mechanics, those are not the only mechanics which they would run into issues with.

[Astralporing.1957]

17 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Of course it depends.  I wasn't saying that there would be no mechanics which could be ignored by having players bunker.  While bunkering wouldn't help with DPS based mechanics, those are not the only mechanics which they would run into issues with.

Sure. But if it becomes much easier to deal with half of the encounter mechanics, it will also become easier to concentrate on the remaining half. Bunkering down need not directly influence a mechanic in order to help players to deal with it. Let's put it this way - do you think that the difficulty of dealing with a certain mechanic when you constantly need to pay attention to other stuff in order not to die is the same, as if you can concantrate on that mechanic and pretty much zone out all the other stuff because it can't really hurt you? Or maybe the second case is actually easier?

 

Remember, that it's extremely rare for raids to use truly difficult mechanics - the difficulty is usually created by stacking multiple mechanics that, individually, are relatively easy and become difficult only when used together. With every single mechanic you can ignore by bunkering down, you bring down the difficulty of whole encounter by one step.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Ayrilana.1396]

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure. But if it becomes much easier to deal with half of the encounter mechanics, it will also become easier to concentrate on the remaining half. Bunkering down need not directly influence a mechanic in order to help players to deal with it. Let's put it this way - do you think that the difficulty of dealing with a certain mechanic when you constantly need to pay attention to other stuff in order not to die is the same, as if you can concantrate on that mechanic and pretty much zone out all the other stuff because it can't really hurt you? Or maybe the second case is actually easier?

 

Other than the tank, players shouldn't really be taking damage from anything anyway.  Any damage that they do take is usually inconsequential such as the standard ticking damage in some fights.  For the mechanics which matter, and players struggle with, bunkering down will not help.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Other than the tank, players shouldn't really be taking damage from anything anyway. 

"Shouldn't take damage" is not the same as "don't take damage". Notice, btw, that not taking damage here often is attached to having to execute some mechanics well. Which is my point - if they can ignore the mechanic and yet ignore the damage received, it;s one less thing they have to worry about. It's exactly how the VG overheal strat works - skipping greens and just healing through the damage lets players concentrate better on other stuff, and makes the whole encounter easier.

 

7 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Any damage that they do take is usually inconsequential such as the standard ticking damage in some fights. 

That, again, completely depends on the encounter. There's a lot of encounters where there's a ton of damage potential around you have to pay attention to. Frankly, i can't think of a single encounter where at least some bunkering would not help.

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

55 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"Shouldn't take damage" is not the same as "don't take damage". Notice, btw, that not taking damage here often is attached to having to execute some mechanics well. Which is my point - if they can ignore the mechanic and yet ignore the damage received, it;s one less thing they have to worry about. It's exactly how the VG overheal strat works - skipping greens and just healing through the damage lets players concentrate better on other stuff, and makes the whole encounter easier.

 

I say "shouldn't" because typically that damage would be focused on the tank.  There are limited areas in raids where have bunker armor to reduce damage tank would really even help although it'd be marginal at best.

 

58 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That, again, completely depends on the encounter. There's a lot of encounters where there's a ton of damage potential around you have to pay attention to. Frankly, i can't think of a single encounter where at least some bunkering would not help.

 

Bunker armor that reduces damage taken by 1 HP does technically help but that doesn't mean that it as actually beneficial over berserker/vipers.  I know that's a bit of an exaggerated example but I had to make that point due to the last sentence as you kind of shifted the discussion.  I'm not arguing that it wouldn't reduce some damage somewhere in raids.  I'm arguing that the amount of damage in inconsequential and it'll do nothing for the attacks which actually trip players up.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Bunker armor that reduces damage taken by 1 HP does technically help but that doesn't mean that it as actually beneficial over berserker/vipers.  I know that's a bit of an exaggerated example but I had to make that point due to the last sentence as you kind of shifted the discussion.  I'm not arguing that it wouldn't reduce some damage somewhere in raids.  I'm arguing that the amount of damage in inconsequential and it'll do nothing for the attacks which actually trip players up.

And i argue that the amount of incidental damage or damage you get to receive due to ignoring/failing some minor mechanics (or sometimes not so minor ones, as in case of VG greens) is not small at all. I keep seeing people getting downed by damage in almost all raid encounters, even without them standing too close to the tank and getting cleaved by the boss.

 

I can't offhand remember even a single encounter where damage would not be an issue at all, and i do remember quite a number where it is one of the major issues. Sure, most of that damage is tied to some mechanics and is avoidable when perfectly executed, but we're not talking about perfect execution on the side of players here.

 

And again, sure, it would do nothing about some attacks (those that are binary and are meant to kill you if you won't avoid them), but it could allow you to ignore a lot of other mechanics, thus making executing that specific one easier)

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Cyninja.2954]

15 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

false. i could know how it is to live in NYC if i'd inform myself by someone or more people who DID live there. i do NOT have to been there. i literally just told you that. are you willfully dismissing it just to make look like you had a point? no you do not have one

 

So, you could know by talking to people who did live there is what you are saying.

 

Say for example the EXPERIENCED players in this thread making comments and sharing what is and is not true, and what is nonsense spread from others who clearly lack sufficient or any experience?

 

So, shouldn't you listen instead of make up bogus arguments then?

 

Mightyteapot in this situation is the insider who shows how easy it can be to live in NYC while artificially hampering ones self with penalties while also making use of some rich friends who have as much money as they want (or know the ins and outs of where to buy stuff cheap and how to save a buck in NYC). The players with raiding experience in this thread are thus the "people" who are bringing context and meaning into what he showed, explaining how it relates and does not relate to actually living in NYC and how none of this is necessary for an average household (if we assume an average household can just increase its income on the fly with some mild application and effort). What exactly is your role then and why are you not practicing what you preach?

Edited June 25, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

12 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

says the people constantly ignoring that his argument can only work when it was done by average player. talk about projection. any argument for or against anything regarding raids based merely on the performance off people who are clearly not the average player is void. the argument is about removing or not removing the enrage timer for the average player. and as it so will the average player in GW2 is quiet low in skill. so taking people who have been raiding since the mode was released in the game can NOT be used as an argument FOR AVERAGE players.

same goes for this.

 

But the video was not an argument pro or against adding something in raids (even though we are in a tread about the removal of enrage timer).

It was a response to someone making a tangent about someone about the necessity of powercreep.

[CasualElitist.8795]

58 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

But the video was not an argument pro or against adding something in raids (even though we are in a tread about the removal of enrage timer).

It was a response to someone making a tangent about someone about the necessity of powercreep.

Yep, exactly. But now he argues that video is still not valid because it was made in 2021 and not 2014 :)))) Just drop it, discussion with him about it seems to be pointless.

 

Btw there is a new video, lvl 76 W4 run 🙂but I bet it still doesn't prove that powercreep is not what made raids possible 🙂

[Ayrilana.1396]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And i argue that the amount of incidental damage or damage you get to receive due to ignoring/failing some minor mechanics (or sometimes not so minor ones, as in case of VG greens) is not small at all. I keep seeing people getting downed by damage in almost all raid encounters, even without them standing too close to the tank and getting cleaved by the boss.

Greens would not me a minor mechanic due to how much damage it does but luckily it’s a fixed amount and can be healed through. Bunker gear would not help with that mechanic at all as it deals damage at a fixed percentage of your max HP. 
 

You’ll have to be specific on which encounters they are downing at and to which attacks. Bunkering up isn’t going to help them if it’s from attacks which are not reduced from wearing that type of gear. 
 

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I can't offhand remember even a single encounter where damage would not be an issue at all, and i do remember quite a number where it is one of the major issues. Sure, most of that damage is tied to some mechanics and is avoidable when perfectly executed, but we're not talking about perfect execution on the side of players here

Pick an encounter or two then where you feel that bunkering down would be beneficial at the cost of damage. Which attacks from the chosen encounter(s) benefit from a player bunkering down?
 

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And again, sure, it would do nothing about some attacks (those that are binary and are meant to kill you if you won't avoid them), but it could allow you to ignore a lot of other mechanics, thus making executing that specific one easier)

Rather than use generic hypotheticals, please provide examples. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[HappyHubris.1096]

On 6/14/2021 at 5:42 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

The only problem with this argument is world bosses weren't always easy.

 

Back before all the powecreep it was easy even for Fire Elemental or Shadow Behemoth to kill the entire group of players in just a few seconds if they weren't seasoned enough to know how to survive while also managing their DPS as well.

 

Every single encounter in the game including the venerable Silverwastes meta that's easy peasy lemon squeasy now, had a high chance of failure. It was possible to bring your best to a fight and still have to walk away having wasted an hour or more of your day, that's just how the game was back then. And no one really complained, either.

 

This comparison of world bosses (and bosses in general), with lack of challenge is because the game has given players far more tools to overcome that challenge, nothing more. In the last few years especially its been taken to an extreme, although I'd say the downward trend started with elite specs. (Though I love them myself.)

 

Currently a player is 2-3x stronger than in pre-HoT era in the same exact gear. With good gear, and a good build and rotation, this is 4-5x or more.

 

Example: I've literally soloed every Fractal that doesn't have a 2person mechanic to it with my Ele, sometimes on a daily basis, while back when Fractals were released you'd struggle to do them even with a full party of experienced players (yes, even in T1), because all the options players had back then were just so much worse compared to now.

 

Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with. If ten players from 2014 Core game stepped foot in a raid, they'd die in a heartbeat, and no amount of skill would be able to overcome the lack of tools neccessary to complete the job. Even now, the same content isn't nothing like it was during HoT release.

 

The lack of challenge is just an out of control powercreep train smashing into the future of the game, and I hope some day the devs revisit it earnestly.

Most of the difficulty back then was players just mashing buttons with random builds using soldiers gear.  Especially with players used to wandering around and completing hearts. Players have more in-game tools, but the biggest "power creep" is (1) casual players dropping out in the last ten years and (2) a proliferation of information about builds, rotations, bosses, etc.

 

If you took today's community and dropped them off in the game as it was released, they would romp all of the content.  Even if the builds available weren't quite as strong and certain prefixes didn't exist.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

Most of the difficulty back then was players just mashing buttons with random builds using soldiers gear.  Especially with players used to wandering around and completing hearts. Players have more in-game tools, but the biggest "power creep" is (1) casual players dropping out in the last ten years and (2) a proliferation of information about builds, rotations, bosses, etc.

 

If you took today's community and dropped them off in the game as it was released, they would romp all of the content.  Even if the builds available weren't quite as strong and certain prefixes didn't exist.

I think this is looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Players weren't just magically bad back then; dungeon speedrunning guilds and such existed already, and even very good dungeon runners had max DPS of around 10K which is 25-30% of what you see now.

 

If you want to talk about proliferation of information, then please don't forget there was already widespread information on how to play the game back then, including dozens, if not hundreds of videos, guides and build tools. There was even entire websites and forums dedicated to it, just like now. It was really no different at all.

 

There was entire team strategies just revolving around combo fields, for example. Which is why even Rangers were taken in dungeons (Healing Spring).

 

The powercreep comes from improvement (sometimes negatively) of the game, such as the ability to stack conditions from all players on enemies, or adding many more %damage bonuses to traits, easier access to Alacrity, Quickness, Might stacking, better stat combos, etc.

 

And if anything the game has more casual players than its ever had before.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[HappyHubris.1096]

12 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I think this is looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Players weren't just magically bad back then; dungeon speedrunning guilds and such existed already, and even very good dungeon runners had max DPS of around 10K which is 25-30% of what you see now.

 

If you want to talk about proliferation of information, then please don't forget there was already widespread information on how to play the game back then, including dozens, if not hundreds of videos, guides and build tools. There was even entire websites and forums dedicated to it, just like now. It was really no different at all.

 

There was entire team strategies just revolving around combo fields, for example. Which is why even Rangers were taken in dungeons (Healing Spring).

 

The powercreep comes from improvement (sometimes negatively) of the game, such as the ability to stack conditions from all players on enemies, or adding many more %damage bonuses to traits, easier access to Alacrity, Quickness, Might stacking, better stat combos, etc.

 

And if anything the game has more casual players than its ever had before.

I mean, without functioning DPS meters theorycrafting was much more difficult.  If I recall back to that time speedrunning was more about skipping trash and overcoming geometry than burning large-hp bosses.

 

I guess I see the condition cap as a "fix" not power creep.  Will concede on some of the other buffs.

 

As a counter-point, players still struggle to compete T1 Fractals.  But people who care to learn find them trivial.

Edited June 30, 2021 by HappyHubris.1096

[Astralporing.1957]

20 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I think this is looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Players weren't just magically bad back then; dungeon speedrunning guilds and such existed already, and even very good dungeon runners had max DPS of around 10K which is 25-30% of what you see now.

One of the first VG kills was done with a group that had like 8 core engineers (including tank). Core support power warrior (the old version, with phalanx strength and banners) was around 13k dps, and that was after a GS nerf (also, that was the support build - the dps build was better than that). Core condi ranger was around twice that (although that specific build was indeed not possible before condi rework).

 

With the old FGS/icebow/storm linecast tricks dungeon dps could easily get way above 20k (and probably way, way above that) - we just were not able to see it due to lack of dps meters.

 

The dps in old times was not as bad as some people think. I've had that discussion when the Queen's Gauntlet returned to the game, and people were complaining that "Liadri is soo easy now, with the power creep" (and i had to point them to videos from the original first run of that event clearly showing that no, for people that knew what they were doing, the Gauntlet was always that easy)

 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:25 AM, yann.1946 said:

But the video was not an argument pro or against adding something in raids (even though we are in a tread about the removal of enrage timer).

It was a response to someone making a tangent about someone about the necessity of powercreep.

yes it is. why do you think the "power creep" argument was made? it an additional point made to remove the enrage timer. cause to that person raids  are only possible through the power creep, the enrage timer is to the Op and the person who made the power creep argument a hurdle that would be even worse without the "power creep" .

and that's because THEY are the average gw2 player.

anet itself during a guild chat confirmed that even the simple concept of a decent damage build is to roughly around 85% of total players foreign as they do ten times less then a standard exotic berserker geared and mediocre build. so they see at best a 1.2k crit and think this is good. and lets not talk about knowing they can dodge. or jump over dmg waves. I do not want to know how many still run around in soliders or mismatched gear for the type of dmg they are doing. its this ridiculous amount of low skilled players that the statistically average player is also ranked much lower.
 

So YES it IS a moot point to show those players, who CLEARY struggle, other players who technically could be considered the "1%" of the skill department how they clear a raid in exotic 74 gear. it is close (but not entirely the same) to tell the the homeless or even lower class wage slaves in the US to "just buy a house, bill gates could buy 3"
Like i said not the best 1:1 analogy but the result is the same:
It doesn't help them in the slightest
in fact it can, very much so, cause the opposite, that they even more so believe that the power creep has bigger role in making raids possible and thus wanting them to remove the enrage timers even MORE SO. 

but apparently that what people in this thread do not seem to understand. 

 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

On 6/25/2021 at 12:27 PM, CasualElitist.8795 said:

Btw there is a new video, lvl 76 W4 run 🙂but I bet it still doesn't prove that powercreep is not what made raids possible 🙂

yes it doesn't to these people. you show people that back then and today struggle to even defeat the easiest raid boss and they blame enrage timer and power creep and then you show them a video from this year after the supposed years power creep that "made raids possible" doing it on lvl 74.
to those players, not to me, to THOSE low level skill player, who's highest (hyperbolically speaking) crit was 2k with all the buffs, to THOSE player this doesn't disprove anything.

Edited June 30, 2021 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Fangoth.4503]

On 6/24/2021 at 11:18 PM, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

i said you can not disprove someone's claim with something that is after the time period of said false claim.

you do not show a moon landing from 2025 when someone claims that in 1980 mankind was never able to get to the moon. you show him the moon landings during that time period or better yet the first moon landing in 1968 long before the time he claimed people were not able to go to the moon.
it doesn't matter that this video exists as it s done in may 2021, the claim was that people could not do raids in 2014 and that only through power creep are only possible now. then you do NOT show a video from AFTER the time period that supposed power creep happened, BUT BEFORE that.
THIS IS WHY that video is a non argument and it doesn't help that the guys in the video are 24/7 raiders either. cause this is after all STILL a thread talking about removal of the enrage timer, a topic started by a very obvious average GW2 player and not an experienced raider.

 When core was released? Thought was before 2015. Ofc there were some adjustment made here and there on core specs since then but they remain pretty weak and makes it harder to maintain boons. So the argument is totally valid and you don't have to deny it just because it doesn't fit your argument.

but you can try convince Anet to let player do it on 2015 balance, pretty sure they'll do it fine on core

Edited June 30, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

14 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

 When core was released? Thought was before 2015. Ofc there were some adjustment made here and there on core specs since then but they remain pretty weak and makes it harder to maintain boons. So the argument is totally valid and you don't have to deny it just because it doesn't fit your argument

since there were no raids in gw2 before the 2015 we can not really use that time period to talk about raid difficulties/enrage timers/power creep. but it should be REALLY simple to understand regardless

they claim between 2015 and 2021 the was a power creep that "made raids possible"(meaning that they could be even considered possible to be finished). show them an average pug finishing a raid in 2015 and the claim of the power creep is debunked objectively. only show them a video from 2021 AFTER the period of alleged power creep and at best you have proven nothing. at worst you just confirmed their believes because they couldn't do it back then and now. When after the 2015 raid clip they still believe in raids being ONLY possible through the power creep then its squarely on their own willful ignorance, similar to flat earthers.

Edited June 30, 2021 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[LittleYoshi.2548]

This could sound toxic/elitist, but maybe instead of complaining about enrage timers, it might be a better idea to just try and get better at the game?
Maybe start off with strikes/fractals (even up to cms) before raiding. Raids are supposed to be the hardest content and doing easier stuff will help you to get a better understanding of your class and the game.

[Fangoth.4503]

55 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

since there were no raids in gw2 before the 2015 we can not really use that time period to talk about raid difficulties/enrage timers/power creep. but it should be REALLY simple to understand regardless

they claim between 2015 and 2021 the was a power creep that "made raids possible"(meaning that they could be even considered possible to be finished). show them an average pug finishing a raid in 2015 and the claim of the power creep is debunked objectively. only show them a video from 2021 AFTER the period of alleged power creep and at best you have proven nothing. at worst you just confirmed their believes because they couldn't do it back then and now. When after the 2015 raid clip they still believe in raids being ONLY possible through the power creep then its squarely on their own willful ignorance, similar to flat earthers.

core is available 2012-2021 so 2015-2021 is within it. and power creeping doesn't concern pug anyway, dps in pug is often meh.
2015 people were just bad at the game as there were no difficult content out there and got better overtime because they learn

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

yes it doesn't to these people. you show people that back then and today struggle to even defeat the easiest raid boss and they blame enrage timer and power creep and then you show them a video from this year after the supposed years power creep that "made raids possible" doing it on lvl 74.
to those players, not to me, to THOSE low level skill player, who's highest (hyperbolically speaking) crit was 2k with all the buffs, to THOSE player this doesn't disprove anything.

If there was a powercreep wouldent they do more damage too and be able to clear it?