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Permanent stealth inside objectives needs counterplay, please.


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Hello.

I'm playing for almost two years, mostly WvW, yet i have not found any counterplay for enemy thieves sitting in towers, aside of bringing entire blob to smoke them out.

If i'm just missing that, please enlighten me, otherwise, i propose two suggestions:

- make shields siege periodically reveal stealthed enemies around in short radius (240p);

- make warclaw's "Sniff" ability to mark stealthed enemies as well.

 

Unfortunately stealth/teleport mechanic became too out of hand: even if you find thief you probably won't outrun them. Moreover if they wear ministrel/trailblazer gear, killing them might be just impossible. In general, situation, when 10 people know about thief in tower, but unable to do anything is nothing, but dull.

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I'm going to summarize what you just wrote: "If the thief you are facing is an idiot, you have a good chance to counter them". No kitten.   If a thief WANTS to remains undetected for an

target painter and target painter trap are a pain in the kitten but a thief can usually outrun any followup. reveal? de elite says hi watchtower tactic is effective but cmon... this shouldnt

Hello. I'm playing for almost two years, mostly WvW, yet i have not found any counterplay for enemy thieves sitting in towers, aside of bringing entire blob to smoke them out. If i'm just mi

Posted (edited)

target painter and target painter trap are a pain in the kitten but a thief can usually outrun any followup.

reveal? de elite says hi

watchtower tactic is effective but cmon... this shouldnt be needed to break a simple class mechanic

drop dmg... since the damage reduction you wont kill them instantly and they will just stay stealthed until they basically reset

 

anet has a history of going after permastealth builds yet the abomination that is sa and deadeye still is in the game... i guess they changed their mind on badly designed mechanics *shrug*

also thief is one of the most braindead roamers these days

Edited by Sarlan.7682
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5 minutes ago, Sarlan.7682 said:

target painter and target painter trap are a pain in the kitten but a thief can usually outrun any followup.

reveal? de elite says hi

watchtower tactic is effective but cmon... this shouldnt be needed to break a simple class mechanic

drop dmg... since the damage reduction you wont kill them instantly and they will just stay stealthed until they basically reset

 

anet has a history of going after permastealth builds yet the abomination that is sa and deadeye still is in the game... i guess they changed their mind on badly designed mechanics *shrug*

also thief is one of the most braindead roamers these days

As a player who always checks for invisible enemies in towers and hunt them down, I can tell you really don't know how to play this game if you say that "target paints are a pain" LMAO. The only truth you speak if the deadeye ability to remove reveal, which isn't a problem anyway since most thieves are DD and core, at least on the servers I face.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

As a player who always checks for invisible enemies in towers and hunt them down, I can tell you really don't know how to play this game if you say that "target paints are a pain" LMAO. The only truth you speak if the deadeye ability to remove reveal, which isn't a problem anyway since most thieves are DD and core, at least on the servers I face.

I'm going to summarize what you just wrote:

"If the thief you are facing is an idiot, you have a good chance to counter them". No kitten.

 

If a thief WANTS to remains undetected for an extended period of time (which kind of implies he runs an appropriate build for it), they will do so and the current counter measures are insufficient at equal number of opposing players.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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22 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

As a player who always checks for invisible enemies in towers and hunt them down, I can tell you really don't know how to play this game if you say that "target paints are a pain" LMAO. The only truth you speak if the deadeye ability to remove reveal, which isn't a problem anyway since most thieves are DD and core, at least on the servers I face.

Last time I've checked Target Paint is something you need to access through your inventory and also have supplies to use, so yea, they're pain to use. 
Chasing teefs inside objectives was already annoyance, then you have red border which starts to eat away your braincells for even trying to chase a teef.

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7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I'm going to summarize what you just wrote:

"If the thief you are facing is an idiot, you have a good chance to counter them". No kitten.

 

If a thief WANTS to remains undetected for an extended period of time (which kind of implies he runs an appropriate build for it), they will do so and the current counter measures are insufficient at equal number of opposing players.

No, a thief simply can't remain undetected because the big stealths require smoke areas which you can see and target with markers, reveals or damage. The ones with no smoke field have long cooldowns and won't give you more than 3-7s stealth so... they won't remain undetected more than that.

 

Oh so, you consider that 30 seconds of revealed is an "insufficient counter measure"? Why you don't say you want stealth and thieves removed from the game so we finish this faster?

Sorry but as a player who actively fight thieves I can tell you are just being outskilled by the average thief player.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

No, a thief simply can't remain undetected because the big stealths require smoke areas which you can see and target with markers, reveals or damage. The ones with no smoke field have long cooldowns and won't give you more than 3-7s stealth so... they won't remain undetected more than that.

Yes, that works great in towers and is absolute bogus for anything larger than that because any good thief will be more than capable to find spots to re-stealth. That is IF they do not abuse portal and even leave the objective, which increases the area they can use to re-stealth even more.

Quote

Oh so, you consider that 30 seconds of revealed is an "insufficient counter measure"? Why you don't say you want stealth and thieves removed from the game so we finish this faster?

Sorry but as a player who actively fight thieves I can tell you are just being outskilled by the average thief player.

 

You yourself mentioned a DE can remove the revealed. They can do so twice in fact. I fail to see your point. That's not even considering any actual builds designed around surviving, say a nomad thief build.

 

I did mention COMPETENT thief players did I not?

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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4 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Last time I've checked Target Paint is something you need to access through your inventory and also have supplies to use, so yea, they're pain to use. 
Chasing teefs inside objectives was already annoyance, then you have red border which starts to eat away your braincells for even trying to chase a teef.

Bruh, I've faced enemies who pushed me out of Shadow Refuge without seeing me, which means reveal, enemies who jumped over my Smoke Screen while I was doing smoke combos, revealing me, and enemies who actively used traps to hunt me and forced me to abandon the structure. Sometimes I succeeded, sometimes don't. And I've done all the previous steps to hunt thieves, being yesterday the last time with great succeed.

 

So it's more like you are lazy or just don't like to deal with things you cannot see, which I understand, but c'mon, opening your inventory and throw a painter to a red area is "pain to use"? Only if you don't place it in a accessible point for fast use.

 

The only problem with thieves and towers is:

 

- The ability to jump inside towers with the staff (which can be done with Warclaw anyway)

- Rifle's Smoke field can be placed inside walls, being that the only invisible smoke field of thief's kit.

 

Everything outside that is either laziness, hate or unskilled players complaining about mechanics they don't know how to counter, regardless of the tools they could use to do it.

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1 minute ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Bruh, I've faced enemies who pushed me out of Shadow Refuge without seeing me, which means reveal, enemies who jumped over my Smoke Screen while I was doing smoke combos, revealing me, and enemies who actively used traps to hunt me and forced me to abandon the structure. Sometimes I succeeded, sometimes don't. And I've done all the previous steps to hunt thieves, being yesterday the last time with great succeed.

Yes, so you lost 1 of your how many stealth options? Getting pushed out of SR is not a death sentence for a competent thief.

1 minute ago, Telgum.6071 said:

So it's more like you are lazy or just don't like to deal with things you cannot see, which I understand, but c'mon, opening your inventory and throw a painter to a red area is "pain to use"? Only if you don't place it in a accessible point for fast use.

 

The only problem with thieves and towers is:

 

- The ability to jump inside towers with the staff (which can be done with Warclaw anyway)

- Rifle's Smoke field can be placed inside walls, being that the only invisible smoke field of thief's kit.

 

Everything outside that is either laziness, hate or unskilled players complaining about mechanics they don't know how to counter, regardless of the tools they could use to do it.

Hardly lazy, just aware what a class CAN do and that is most often on offensive builds with some stealth in them and not even a full fledged survival and stealth build.

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44 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You yourself mentioned a DE can remove the revealed. They can do so twice in fact. I fail to see your point.

This is what I call a good example on both ignorance and players trying to win on forums what they can't on the battle field. If you throw a marker to a deadeye, it will be MARKED. Now let's see the meaning of marked:

Marked - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Quote

While under any of the above effects, the team that marked you can see you as a orange dot on their map. Entering stealth while marked will place the Detected! effect on you for 2 seconds.

Quote

Detected! is an effect applied to players that enter stealth while they are marked. If they are stealthed for more than 2 seconds while detected, they will become revealed. Exiting stealth before this effect expires will remove this effect.

That means you can't become invisible during 30 seconds, because if you do you'll be revealed. And what if the Deadeye uses Shadowmeld to remove the reveal? Exactly! you are still marked, so you'll be revealed again and again and everytime you become invisible while marked, which is 30 seconds if you are hit by a target painter.

 

So please, please. Before coming to moan at forums about your more than evident incapability to deal with competent enemies, as you say, try to at least gather information about what you are talking about. Because this is just ridiculous.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

This is what I call a good example on both ignorance and players trying to win on forums what they can't on the battle field. If you throw a marker to a deadeye, it will be MARKED. Now let's see the meaning of marked:

Marked - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

That means you can't become invisible during 30 seconds, because if you do you'll be revealed. And what if the Deadeye uses Shadowmeld to remove the reveal? Exactly! you are still marked, so you'll be revealed again and again and everytime you become invisible while marked, which is 30 seconds if you are hit by a target painter.

 

So please, please. Before coming to moan at forums about your more than evident incapability to deal with competent enemies, as you say, try to at least gather information about what you are talking about. Because this is just ridiculous.

What we have here is the typical "my class is fine" defence which forum warrior players love to bring.

 

Yes, in the last 3 years of playing actively WvW I can count the amount of times a player was able to hit a deadeye outside of stealth with a marked trap on 1 hand. Turns out hitting the most mobile class with a marker is not that easy with a 1,200 range 360 RADIUS! marker (the fact you are even bringing this up is hilarious).

 

Oh but we have marker traps. Yes, good luck placing enough of those to be of significance. I did mention tracking a DE down with a numeric similar amount of players. Yes, if you outnumber the DE with 4-5 people or more, spend sufficient amount of supply on marker traps AND the DE is not built tanky or survival, you can defend against it.

 

That's neither realistic nor balanced and works ONLY in mid sized structures. Neither the EBG keeps or SM nor the keeps on the red map are even remotely small enough. It also again does not account for the fact that good DE will actually leave the objective if seriously pressured making use of both their portal as well as Shadowstep to cover distances no other class can even remotely cover in the same amount of time. Which makes even if the DE decided to wait out the marked debuff IF he ever got hit, no hard feat.

 

If you can't stay as long as you want in an objective as a properly built DE (and I mean built not just some utility and traits swapped out), your just not that good on your class.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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27 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, in the last 3 years of playing actively WvW I can count the amount of times a player was able to hit a deadeye outside of stealth with a marked trap on 1 hand. Turns out hitting the most mobile class with a marker is not that easy with a 1,200 range 360 RADIUS! marker (the fact you are even bringing this up is hilarious).

 

Sorry dude, but if you have been playing WvW for three years and you still having problems with target painters, you are no use and your only resource left is coming to cry at forums. 

Three years playing this game and you didn't even know Deadeyes can't counter the target painters, where is your shame? How can you come to me to tell a class you don't even know about is broken? Seriously, I don't understand.

 

Don't bother to quote me again, not gonna answer you anymore.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Sorry dude, but if you have been playing WvW for three years and you still having problems with target painters, you are no use and your only resource left is coming to cry at forums. 

Three years playing this game and you didn't even know Deadeyes can't counter the target painters, where is your shame? How can you come to me to tell a class you don't even know about is broken? Seriously, I don't understand.

 

Don't bother to quote me again, not gonna answer you anymore.

Who said I didn't know about target painters? I didn't bring them up because, well I explained how well they work.

 

I just found it hilarious how obviously you are trying to defend a class mechanic with bringing marked up to begin with (either trolling or intentionally derailing the issue). Any player who actually does use target painters and/or target painter traps on a regular basis knows how effective they are, or ineffective to be more exact. Which is exactly the issue people are bringing up.

 

Hence why I brought up revealed only, which given it will ACTUALLY be applied via occasional class skills, is the only significant defense against thiefs, and which DE can circumvent. If your response to this is the above, aka to use target painters in any form, there is no arguing with you because you already have shown your heavy bias.

 

I will bother to quote you, and frankly I really do not care about you responding or not.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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The issue deserves some attention. The level of effort balance between the thief staying in the structure and hunting down the thief is very skewed. I don't main thief, but even I have a dedicated template for staying hidden and alive inside structures. It's very useful for completing dailies if I end up playing during a dead time zone for my server.

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It'd be a decent solution, if enemy players were simply kicked out of objectives once they change their owner.

 

This way Arenanet wouldn't even need to touch their beloved stealth.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It'd be a decent solution, if enemy players were simply kicked out of objectives once they change their owner.

 

This way Arenanet wouldn't even need to touch their beloved stealth.

I'll be honest, in that regard personally I am actually in favor of keeping the stealth game play. It does add a strategic element, it just shouldn't be this one-sided imo.

 

Let's leave aside the fact that consumables are supposed to be used to catch a good thief, which I already mentioned is already insufficient and unprecedented as far as any other class is concerned.

 

There are certain things which could be done to even the playing field. If an enemy does not sweep, a thief or mesmer deserves to remain in the objective.

 

First off if we remain with the consumable route, target painters would need a larger radius and should pulse for a certain amount of time. This at least would allow less mobile players to cover areas within objectives and deny a stealther refuge there. Target painters could also be reworked to provide a buff to the player which makes all his attacks mark an enemy for a specific amount of time.

 

That said, I am not a fan of the consumable approach to begin with, given this is one of the only cases where consumables are required. I would much rather have a player skill solution to this issue which both does not make thief obsolete, but at the same time allow for a more reasonable sweep of objectives. The irony here is that the Deadeye elite is a thiefs own worst enemy. Any "solution" or approach to manage a deadeyes stealth and reveal avoidance would severely affect other thief builds currently.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

This is what I call a good example on both ignorance and players trying to win on forums what they can't on the battle field. If you throw a marker to a deadeye, it will be MARKED. Now let's see the meaning of marked:

Marked - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

That means you can't become invisible during 30 seconds, because if you do you'll be revealed. And what if the Deadeye uses Shadowmeld to remove the reveal? Exactly! you are still marked, so you'll be revealed again and again and everytime you become invisible while marked, which is 30 seconds if you are hit by a target painter.

 

So please, please. Before coming to moan at forums about your more than evident incapability to deal with competent enemies, as you say, try to at least gather information about what you are talking about. Because this is just ridiculous.

Except that its marked that last 30s, not revealed. Revealed last 3 seconds. A marked thief just stealths again every 3s and because they got so many teleports they are easily a second or two away from you once they reappear. Every time they appear you got maybe a second to hit them, which is little difference from not being revealed.

 

Revealed is barely an annoyance.

 

Ceterum autem censeo Thief esse delendam.

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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Chase the thief around the tower for an hour and then insert watch tower tactic!

Stand outside the tower, they'll have to come out to get you!

 

Or do something better with your time, ignore them completely, and go do something else, cause if 2-50 other people on the map don't care about that tower why should you? it's just a tower.... it's just points.... it's not worth the hassle... trust me...

 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except that its marked that last 30s, not revealed. Revealed last 3 seconds. A marked thief just stealths again every 3s and because they got so many teleports they are easily a second or two away from you once they reappear. Every time they appear you got maybe a second to hit them, which is little difference from not being revealed.

 

Revealed is barely an annoyance.

 

Ceterum autem censeo Thief esse delendam.

This is another example of either ignorance or very little knowledge about classes. No thief can remain 30 seconds on stealth while marked, smoke fields won't work while marked because you need to stack time or combo fields in them, which has no use while marked.

So as a thief, and assuming you have ALL the possible stealth skills, you can't even bring 10 collective seconds of stealth while marked, because a skill like Hide in Shadows (7s stealth) will bring only 2s into marked.

 

Actually, let's just bring what you said into practique:

Hide in Shadows - 2s

Bliding Powder - 2s

Shadow Refuge - 2s (you can see the smoke field, you can attack him regardless if you see him or not)

Smoke Screen - 2s (you can see the smoke field, you can attack him regardless if you see him or not)

D/P Combo - 2s

If Deadeye: Shadowmeld: 4s

 

So a competent thief, going with every possible stealth skill (which means, no shadow portal, no shadowstep, no agility signet) could only bring exactly 10 collective seconds of stealth, on a closed structure, with NPCs attacking and slowing said thief, while also being marked (which means literally EVERYONE IN YOUR SERVER CAN SEE THE THIEF), with literally no survival skills outside the stunbreak of Bliding Powder and 5 SB, which was nerfed two patches ago and is extremely limited inside structures.

 

Deadeye could bring 4 more seconds + rolls if using rifle, I'll give you that.

 

Is this really a no counterable mechanic? Are you telling me you can't fight an enemy in this situation? Then either my PVEr server is extremely good or yours is extremely bad, because a marked thief in a structure is a dead thief no matter what.

 

By reading this thread I think this is more like a git gud problem rather that "OP stealth please nerf again".

Edited by Telgum.6071
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

This is another example of either ignorance or very little knowledge about classes. No thief can remain 30 seconds on stealth while marked, smoke fields won't work while marked because you need to stack time or combo fields in them, which has no use while marked.

So as a thief, and assuming you have ALL the possible stealth skills, you can't even bring 10 collective seconds of stealth while marked, because a skill like Hide in Shadows (7s stealth) will bring only 2s into marked.

 

Actually, let's just bring what you said into practique:

Hide in Shadows - 2s

Bliding Powder - 2s

Shadow Refuge - 2s (you can see the smoke field, you can attack him regardless if you see him or not)

Smoke Screen - 2s (you can see the smoke field, you can attack him regardless if you see him or not)

D/P Combo - 2s

If Deadeye: Shadowmeld: 4s

 

So a competent thief, going with every possible stealth skill (which means, no shadow portal, no shadowstep, no agility signet) could only bring exactly 10 collective seconds of stealth, on a closed structure, with NPCs attacking and slowing said thief, while also being marked (which means literally EVERYONE IN YOUR SERVER CAN SEE THE THIEF), with literally no survival skills outside the stunbreak of Bliding Powder and 5 SB, which was nerfed two patches ago and is extremely limited inside structures.

 

Deadeye could bring 4 more seconds + rolls if using rifle, I'll give you that.

 

Is this really a no counterable mechanic? Are you telling me you can't fight an enemy in this situation? Then either my PVEr server is extremely good or yours is extremely bad, because a marked thief in a structure is a dead thief no matter what.

 

By reading this thread I think this is more like a git gud problem rather that "OP stealth please nerf again".

So your example thief manages to pull off 1 D/P combo in 30s? Is that what you are going with as thief main?

 

Also you seem to lack reading comprehension because Dawdler.8521 clearly explained that even at 2s stealth intervals, a mobile class as thief can gain a significant distance advantage on its pursuers. This is not about a thief maintaining stealth, which obviously does not work. This is about marked not being the be-all end-all solution which you are trying to make it out to be.

 

The way I am reading this is rather a main grasping at every "argument" or aspect possible (while conveniently omitting inconsistencies with his suggestions in favor of his argument), no matter how reasonable or not, in an attempt to argue that his class is balanced.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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19 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

This is another example of either ignorance or very little knowledge about classes. No thief can remain 30 seconds on stealth while marked, smoke fields won't work while marked because you need to stack time or combo fields in them, which has no use while marked.

So as a thief, and assuming you have ALL the possible stealth skills, you can't even bring 10 collective seconds of stealth while marked, because a skill like Hide in Shadows (7s stealth) will bring only 2s into marked.

 

Actually, let's just bring what you said into practique:

Hide in Shadows - 2s

Bliding Powder - 2s

Shadow Refuge - 2s (you can see the smoke field, you can attack him regardless if you see him or not)

Smoke Screen - 2s (you can see the smoke field, you can attack him regardless if you see him or not)

D/P Combo - 2s

If Deadeye: Shadowmeld: 4s

 

So a competent thief, going with every possible stealth skill (which means, no shadow portal, no shadowstep, no agility signet) could only bring exactly 10 collective seconds of stealth, on a closed structure, with NPCs attacking and slowing said thief, while also being marked (which means literally EVERYONE IN YOUR SERVER CAN SEE THE THIEF), with literally no survival skills outside the stunbreak of Bliding Powder and 5 SB, which was nerfed two patches ago and is extremely limited inside structures.

 

Deadeye could bring 4 more seconds + rolls if using rifle, I'll give you that.

 

Is this really a no counterable mechanic? Are you telling me you can't fight an enemy in this situation? Then either my PVEr server is extremely good or yours is extremely bad, because a marked thief in a structure is a dead thief no matter what.

 

By reading this thread I think this is more like a git gud problem rather that "OP stealth please nerf again".

Did you quote the wrong person? Because nothing you said has anything to do with a thief being able to stealth every 3 seconds while marked because well... that's how long revealed last. 

Only an idiot thief actually tries to stack stealth while marked since stealth reveals you after 2s.

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6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:


Only an idiot thief actually tries to stack stealth while marked since stealth reveals you after 2s.

Agreed, yet people is telling me thief is literally unbalanced and uncounterable even while marked. 

And no, you said thieves can still freely become invisible and move away with high mobility while marked because it doesn't prevent you to become stealthed, which honestly isn't entirely true.

 

Because a thief with full stealth skill set will only have 5SB (two uses into no initiative and extremely limited inside structures) and steal, which teleports him to you, and again, limited inside structures.

 

Remember we are talking about a scenario that happens inside a structure, not next to a sentry.

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9 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Only an idiot thief actually tries to stack stealth while marked since stealth reveals you after 2s.

Completely agree with this.

 

Thief main here (about 3000 hours) made a set of nomads gear with speed runes back in 2016 and its served me well ever since for doing specifically this.

 

The people who say they can't catch a deadeye even with the deadeye being marked are just incompetent. I run nomads deadeye with trickery, SA, and deadeye (the stealth trio) if I get caught in a marked and in combat I'm pretty kittened. Sometimes I'll survive if the player is bad enough or if I can pull off some quality kitten (namely abusing shortbow teleports in hills or shadow portal). But more often than not I'm dead.

 

I wouldn't go far as to say I'm the best thief in the world (though I am plat rank in ranked PvP)  but I certainly know my way around the class. The fact shadow portal and other kitten hasn't even been given more than a mention is almost a crime in my eyes. I'd argue stealth is probably not even the biggest problem with thiefs hiding in objectives. 

 

So let me give you a day in the eyes of a man who took trolling to its absolute limit.

 

Did you know you can keybind swap equipment and build sets? I have keybinds set to instant swap to nomads acro daredevil that is maximum speed, if I get hit by a stealth trap and I'm not in combat I instant swap to that and good luck catching me before marked is gone don't need stealth to outrun people. Or perhaps allow me to regale you the supreme "feature" of shadow portal in which the global cooldown is linked to when you first place the trap, meaning I can place the trap, jump out of the tower, wait 59 seconds teleport back into tower, place another trap and jump out before you even realize I'm in the tower. I've done this to get around keep RI revealed and hide on the inner of flipped EBG keeps. There's nothing you can do to stop me either other than chase me around outside the keep. And while we're on the topic of shadow portal, did you know that it has 5000 range (instant combat break) and its a stun break?  Also did you know that if you swap builds with shadow portal it doesn't remove the shadow portal?  

 

This isn't even getting into some of the cheese you can do in water of west keep. Or the shadow steps you can pull off in east keep hills. Or the cheese you can do with kneel rifle 4, or perfectly timed D/D skill 5 perma stealths. Or the fact that if you have 2 thiefs inside an objective there is 0 chance you have at removing them because they can just portal eachother in if you get one.

 

tl;dr if you think stealth is the most kitten part of thief you have no idea how bad it can get lol. Stealth is a problem, but not nearly as bad as shadow portal or instant build swapping outside of combat.  

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This thread needs to die, solely due to the ignorance (Lack of knowledge)

 

There's plenty of counter play to stealth for objectives. That is all I will say and all that needs to be said, nobody needs to argue.

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