Give Rev more ways to manage conditions

[jpsssss.7530]

Rev HAD the Corruption trait giving resistance as the ONE justification for Rev having access to so few usable condition cleanses (meaning you don't have to pick up 4 other  skills that are mediocre at best and god awful at worst to have it). Not to mention that the malyx skill that pulls conditions will now just outright kill a revenant in WvW, now that resistance has been gutted. I doubt anyone on the balance team will read this, but in case you do, please fix this. It is poor balancing and game design to make a whole class be countered by a build type that ALL classes can have.

And for the centaur/staff stans, sorry. Staff is really clunky and just has way too many issues and legendary centaur stance is bad in PvP and WvW and it will take more work than the balancing team seems to want to do to fix it.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

What do you think potential trait candidates would be? IMO Salvation is overcrowded with healing orb traits so I could see it benefitting from a group cleanse trait, and Corruption is now left in a bit of an awkward spot with the resistance rework, so I could see them giving it a personal cleanse trait there too.  As for something like a power Herald, I think it having cleanse from traited shield is a very notable addition from ANet and should not be discounted, it is just overshadowed by offhand sword. Would be cool to see SotM - Dragon maybe convert 1 condi AoE instead of chill too.

[lodjur.1284]

4 hours ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

Rev HAD the Corruption trait giving resistance as the ONE justification for Rev having access to so few usable condition cleanses (meaning you don't have to pick up 4 other  skills that are mediocre at best and god awful at worst to have it). Not to mention that the malyx skill that pulls conditions will now just outright kill a revenant in WvW, now that resistance has been gutted. I doubt anyone on the balance team will read this, but in case you do, please fix this. It is poor balancing and game design to make a whole class be countered by a build type that ALL classes can have.

And for the centaur/staff stans, sorry. Staff is really clunky and just has way too many issues and legendary centaur stance is bad in PvP and WvW and it will take more work than the balancing team seems to want to do to fix it.

6 clears on a 10 sec cd + 5/30 and on demand resistance for the most dangerous condition in the game (immobilize) isn't enough? 

 

That's for condi renegade, plenty for me at least

 

Core condi ofc gets staff in addition to this (due to a lack of viable weapons)

 

Condi Herald (for the people that Ren/Core is too hard for and that need baby mode) ofc has even more clears/invulns. 

 

I use Pain Absorption while playing with a group, I have so far killed myself exactly 0 times on it, but then again I look at my UI and plan ahead with clears and use it to save people from immobilize/fear spam and don't just randomly spam it

 

Power gets 4 clears on 10 sec cd+staff and so much mobility/evades that those clears are more than enough. 

[Thornwolf.9721]

11 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

What do you think potential trait candidates would be? IMO Salvation is overcrowded with healing orb traits so I could see it benefitting from a group cleanse trait, and Corruption is now left in a bit of an awkward spot with the resistance rework, so I could see them giving it a personal cleanse trait there too.  As for something like a power Herald, I think it having cleanse from traited shield is a very notable addition from ANet and should not be discounted, it is just overshadowed by offhand sword. Would be cool to see SotM - Dragon maybe convert 1 condi AoE instead of chill too.

1. Jalis, through traits based around being "stone" I mean it makes sense. You can't burn/bleed a rock (burning it sure, but you get what I mean)
2. Glint is literally a crystal dragon, maybe through shield and crystalline flesh? Make it so you retool the off-hand to be a mass condition consume which heals you and returns damage? You could make something work here.
3. Invocation could have some additional condition cleanses, through song of the mists or such making it sure bloated but it would justify its existence as I haven't bothered using it for a long while now. Not when you can run other options to add more tools.
4. Shiro could be given something better than movement skills burning conditions, maybe something about using energy? Call it "Cleansing momentum" and have it be for every 1 energy spent you cleanse conditions or something. (Probs best to make it for each skill you use, that uses energy you cleanse 1 condition since most of the time revenant is all about the flow.)

 

[lodjur.1284]

Really though, what kinda Revenant builds are you guys running where conditions are a major problem?

 

Build links please because this is absurd

 

Some of the best condi management in the game

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

 

Some of the best condi management in the game

You can keep peddling this argument but it’s 100% false 

[lodjur.1284]

Just now, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

You can keep peddling this argument but it’s 100% false 

Link me what build you're running that doesn't have good condi management on Rev, power or condi, I'll wait

[Shao.7236]

As is currently if you're power. Conditions are manageable, same with Support.

 

However they really messed up with Mallyx due to how Poison was nullified with Resistance and honestly still should be, there is no counter to it right now.

 

Because they have an emphasis on Condition Damage reduction which is good and already powerful on Revenant, they should actually and properly fix up Mallyx to have ways of immunity around those that are damaging just like Resistance cares for the non damaging ones.

 

Slapping Resolution on Pain Absorption is not a solution as it neither shares with teammates like Resistance does.

 

The better solution to this would be; Gaining 4  seconds of Dark Aura with +1 second per condition pulled along Resistance for -33% Condition Damage as a comparable type of buff to Rite of the Great Dwarf fitting in with Revenant nicely. This one is also given to a maximum of 5 targets allies to alleviate the Resistance changes also so that Mallyx gets more sustain on top of alternative available somewhere else such as Spiritual Resolution to add Resolution -33% Condition Damage for a total of -66% that can be paired with RotGD for more than 100% which grants the same old condition damage immunity without being completely immune to other conditions that Resistance can cover but also be countered by boon strip.

 

Currently this is only possible on Renegade which is dumb.

 

Resistance deserves to have an increase in duration for certain traits and runes in the game with how they changed it, at least in PvP.

 

I thought to go as far to say that Resistance for Revenant in the Corruption trait line should be changed with Dark Aura effects rather than Resistance, things such as Demonic Defiance, Demonic Resistance and Fiendish Tenacity however that seems like way too much on top of not being stackable which would require the removal of the ICD if it had to be.

 

Empowering Misery on top of it's current effect if we aren't going to adapt Poison in the new game should consume damaging conditions to solve the current design flaw in their decision.

 

They should also increase Resolution given by Spiritual Resolution to 4 seconds, it currently ain't enough to justify over Planar Protection which with a leap can give even more Dark Aura, it won't be overpowered either if people go for Vicious Reprisal as they'd give up on Versed in Stone for the duration increase.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Buran.3796]

  Jalis has plenty of cleanses, Glint + Jalis is one of the safest combos against condition pressure in the game. Sadly that build doesn't delivers enough damage. Works ok as a bunker but you are very limited in  weapons because one of few the physical damage ones (the hammer) neither provides damage enough or cc enough to be a decent choice vs other bunkers/bruisers in the game.

 

   Condi Rev is chaotic in nature because has high burst of damage and wreks foes in teamfights, but at the same time is predictable and has weak defenses vs conditions. That's in PvP, because in PvE/WvW tormenting runes lets you to tank absurds amounts of enemies.

 

   Needs Rev more condi cleanses? Maybe, but not as much as a whole revamp of the hammer (and that extends to Warrior's and Guardian's hammers). I don't understand why ANet designs weapons that remain unused in every game mode...

[jpsssss.7530]

16 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

6 clears on a 10 sec cd + 5/30 and on demand resistance for the most dangerous condition in the game (immobilize) isn't enough? 

 

That's for condi renegade, plenty for me at least

 

Core condi ofc gets staff in addition to this (due to a lack of viable weapons)

 

Condi Herald (for the people that Ren/Core is too hard for and that need baby mode) ofc has even more clears/invulns. 

 

I use Pain Absorption while playing with a group, I have so far killed myself exactly 0 times on it, but then again I look at my UI and plan ahead with clears and use it to save people from immobilize/fear spam and don't just randomly spam it

 

Power gets 4 clears on 10 sec cd+staff and so much mobility/evades that those clears are more than enough. 

1) resistance is a boon and can be stripped/corrupted by a lot of classes. Also a lot of the worst condi classes to fight don't immob or have very little immob.
2) I count 6 TOTAL for the class, 1 on staff, 1 on ventari, 1 on dwarf, 1 on malyx IF you're running Herald, 1 in retribution that we all take, and one IF you take herald AND use a shield. The MOST you can have is, if you run 2 of dwarf, centaur, malyx and run X/Shield and Staff, 5. But you seem to not only miscount the most you can have up in the class, but you also neglect energy cost and cooldowns. Not to mention if you take centaur, you damage drops to negligible amounts and in WvW malyx will kill you if you're in a blob...
3) Condi herald has 1 "invuln", but condis still exist after, merely extending your life by a short amount... if you're counting the shield, blocks =/= invuln...
4) staff drops TWO condis on a FIFTEEN second CD AND costs energy
5) if you're counting the stuff that all classes can use, I guarantee each other class will ALWAYS out cleanse you while out valuing your skills. I literally only need 2 skills on firebrand to keep condis off of me in a blob fight, I can do far better with 3 on protection holo, and fire or water weaver scoffs at the idea of having a condition for longer than 0.5 seconds...

 

You're also neglecting that it is insanely easy to continually apply condis on the best condi classes. Yeah they dont burst (guardian excluded), but they're looking for a war of attrition (again, guardian excluded), which they'll win.

[jpsssss.7530]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Needs Rev more condi cleanses? Maybe, but not as much as a whole revamp of the hammer (and that extends to Warrior's and Guardian's hammers). I don't understand why ANet designs weapons that remain unused in every game mode...

I don't disagree, rev hammer is bad. I once tried it... and not 2 minutes later it was back in the hands of my scrapper...

[jpsssss.7530]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

You can keep peddling this argument but it’s 100% false 

Don't worry fam. Mans doesn't even check to make sure the key pieces of his argument are correct.

[lodjur.1284]

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

1) resistance is a boon and can be stripped/corrupted by a lot of classes. Also a lot of the worst condi classes to fight don't immob or have very little immob.

Having access to it means you can save your clears

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

2) I count 6 TOTAL for the class, 1 on staff, 1 on ventari, 1 on dwarf, 1 on malyx IF you're running Herald, 1 in retribution that we all take, and one IF you take herald AND use a shield. The MOST you can have is, if you run 2 of dwarf, centaur, malyx and run X/Shield and Staff, 5. But you seem to not only miscount the most you can have up in the class, but you also neglect energy cost and cooldowns. Not to mention if you take centaur, you damage drops to negligible amounts and in WvW malyx will kill you if you're in a blob...

Retri has no clear

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

3) Condi herald has 1 "invuln", but condis still exist after, merely extending your life by a short amount... if you're counting the shield, blocks =/= invuln...

 

The quotes around invuln because it's better than invuln?

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

 

4) staff drops TWO condis on a FIFTEEN second CD AND costs energy
5) if you're counting the stuff that all classes can use, I guarantee each other class will ALWAYS out cleanse you while out valuing your skills. I literally only need 2 skills on firebrand to keep condis off of me in a blob fight, I can do far better with 3 on protection holo, and fire or water weaver scoffs at the idea of having a condition for longer than 0.5 seconds...

Ofc synergies with other clears should be considered

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

You're also neglecting that it is insanely easy to continually apply condis on the best condi classes. Yeah they dont burst (guardian excluded), but they're looking for a war of attrition (again, guardian excluded), which they'll win.

Idk 6 clears on 10 sec cd is pretty good

 

3+1+2 every swap and then 5 in demand in dwarf is plenty for me

 

Why are you even mentioning blobs and condi rev and conditions in the same sentences???

[lodjur.1284]

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

Don't worry fam. Mans doesn't even check to make sure the key pieces of his argument are correct.

You keep using retribution to clear condis tho

[jpsssss.7530]

1 minute ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Having access to it means you can save your clears

Retri has no clear

The quotes around invuln because it's better than invuln?

Ofc synergies with other clears should be considered

Idk 6 clears on 10 sec cd is pretty good

 

3+1+2 every swap and then 5 in demand in dwarf is plenty for me

 

Why are you even mentioning blobs and condi rev and conditions in the same sentences???

1) SOrry INVOCATION. the one we ALL take. Still 5 tho.
2) bruv can you even count. you can have a MAX of 5 at a time. Staff is on a 15 second CD. Where are you getting 6 on a 10 second CD from? show me this 6 separate clears in 10 seconds. break it down for me. If you're counting sigil of cleansing, invocation clear and anti toxin rune (?) every class can get 4 for free easily then. But every class still clears better save maybe warrior (? I know thief can stealth and laugh). And if you're playing power, your runes have A LOT of dead stats...
3) See here for the renegade build that is used in blobs WITH MALYX :https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Diviner_Renegade. (Also malyx was used for front lining for many years, so...) Also pugging exists.

4) ever played against a condi thief, condi guard, or condi mesmer? because you lose the 1v1, assuming they have played the class before...

[lodjur.1284]

4 minutes ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

1) SOrry INVOCATION. the one we ALL take. Still 5 tho.
2) bruv can you even count. you can have a MAX of 5 at a time. Staff is on a 15 second CD. Where are you getting 6 on a 10 second CD from? show me this 6 separate clears in 10 seconds. break it down for me. If you're counting sigil of cleansing, invocation clear and anti toxin rune (?) every class can get 4 for free easily then. But every class still clears better save maybe warrior (? I know thief can stealth and laugh). And if you're playing power, your runes have A LOT of dead stats...

Permeating Pestilence (2)+Cleansing Channel (1)+Sigil of Cleansing (3) = 6, 10 sec cd for that is disgustingly low cd

 

With antitoxin which I don't see why you would run, that's 9(!!) clears on a 10 sec cd.

 

Power Revenant overall ofc doesn't use corruption, so they "only" have 4 clears on a 10 sec cd, but they run with multiple blocks/evades/invulns/high mobility and naturally need less clears, kinda like mesmer/thief

4 minutes ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

3) See here for the renegade build that is used in blobs WITH MALYX :https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Diviner_Renegade. (Also malyx was used for front lining for many years, so...) Also pugging exists.

Ye that build runs no clears, so?

 

Not even running cleansing sigil (while running energy and force....???) is kinda, going out of your ways to avoid clears, but then again this build was made for broken resistance. Also the build is just bad, in a lot of ways.

 

Even so I am certain it could stay alive cause in zergs you got other people clearing you, making (damaging) condis essentially non-existant.

4 minutes ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

4) ever played against a condi thief, condi guard, or condi mesmer? because you lose the 1v1, assuming they have played the class before...

dUelSaReAgOoDmEtRiCfOrBaLaNcE 

 

Well I mean nothing "wins" against a mesmer or thief of any variety that isn't completely incompetent, it's a simple mobility issue, unless you count forcing them to reset. No amount of clears or tankiness is gonna change that. Running away and resetting is simply the dominant strategy for those types of engagements

 

Condi guard I don't think I have ever lost to on any revenant build. Mostly cause condi guard is a pretty horrible duelist in my experience

 

I mean you're leaving out the area where condi rev excels, which is smallscale fights (more than 3 enemies, but less than 25-ish if unorganized and less than 10 if organized), where it's clears feels more than sufficient.

 

That Condi Rev isn't an amazing solo build (but def viable) isn't really a problem, not everything can excel everywhere.

[Thornwolf.9721]

41 minutes ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

1) SOrry INVOCATION. the one we ALL take. Still 5 tho.

Spoiler

Laughs In core Rev

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Link me what build you're running that doesn't have good condi management on Rev, power or condi, I'll wait

Dude, Rev has very limited build diversity.  This isn't some rocket science that only you have figured out.  It's completely obvious what you take or don't take for condition management.  I'm not going to go create several links on Build Editor and link them here since we all know exactly what I would be linking.

Let's analyze the false claim though, the claim that Rev has good cleanse:

You've stated it yourself in your above the post, summarized here:
6 clears for condi ren on 10s CD (Legend Swap) + 5/30
4 clears for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

except that ignores that:
3 of those clears are linked to Sigil of Cleansing, which every class has access to and can run double of so that they ALSO get 3 clears every 10s.  So as soon as you realize that the argument becomes:

3 clears for condi ren on 10s CD + 5/30
1 clear for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

Let's look at other classes:

1) Healing skills: Every class except mesmer has access to a core healing skill that also cleanses conditions in some way.  Mesmer's Chronomancer has access to one through Well of Eternity.  Jalis's "5/30" is not unique here in the least, especially since its counterpart, Warrior's "mending," does 5/15 (or 10/30, adjusted).  Other notable examples include Necromancer's "Consume Conditions which eats every single condi on you, so X/30.  Also, Soulbeast's "Bear Stance" can be traited to remove a whopping 12/25.  These are just the healing skills, we haven't gotten to anything else yet. 

2) Utility Skills: Every class EXCEPT Revenant, given the correct trait/rune/build choices, can slot 3 utilities that cleanse conditions.  Even with access to 6 utilities, Revenant can only slot 2!  And one of those two is "Ventari" which is awful and the other is Shiro's Riposting Shadows, which doesn't remove damaging conditions.  Again, Every other class can slot 3 utilities at least that can remove conditions, ESPECIALLY damaging ones

3) Elite Skills:  Elite skills that can cleanse condis inherently are somewhat rare.  Revenant, Ranger, Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, and Necromancer all have access to or can build to allow at least 1 of their Elite Skills to cleanse condis.  However, Revenant's elite that can cleanse condis is "Energy Expulsion" on Ventari, which....is not great.  Most of the other Elite Skills that can cleanse/or be traited/runed to cleanse are...far better than Ventari...

^The point of this is that EVERY class besides Rev can take 4 (or 5 in some cases) extra skills that can cleanse if they want.  This doesn't even include the additonal

4) Traits:  Every class, including Rev, has at least 2 Core Traits that can cleanse condis.  Most have 3 or more.  Many of these traits are as effective or better than Cleansing Channel and Permeating Pestillence.  Let's take a look at some of the good ones:

Guardian:  Smiter's Boon cures 2/20 and is a must for many builds.  DH can even remove a condition every time it blocks with Hunter's Fortification.  No ICD.  Skies the limit with that one. 

Ranger: Ranger has several traits that can remove or mitigate conditions, but the best one is very clearly Druidic Clarity which can be as strong as 13/11 or as spread out as 13/25.  That is insanely more powerful than anything Rev has, and that doesn't even include their utility or other traits. 

Necromancer: Necromancer has insane condition removal/transfer that far outpaces anything Rev can put out.  Necro can remove 1 every 3s (1/3) while in shroud, pass off conditions to minions 1/10 per minion, and even lose 3 when leaving shroud.  Scourge can remove 1 per Barrier application as well. 

I could keep going with this since there's even more for other classes as well.  This list also doesn't include weapon or profession skills that remove conditions as well, which there are many of.

The point is, Every class BESIDES Rev CAN slot and build for FAR MORE than 6 every 10s (or Power Rev's measly 4/10).  While Rev CAN slot for some extra cleanse besides its traits, it's actively punished for doing so since Ventari is absolute trash outside of PvE (and even there it's not great).  EVERY other class can slot and build around conditions even further if they want without being directly punished for it. 
 

[Thornwolf.9721]

27 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Dude, Rev has very limited build diversity.  This isn't some rocket science that only you have figured out.  It's completely obvious what you take or don't take for condition management.  I'm not going to go create several links on Build Editor and link them here since we all know exactly what I would be linking.

Let's analyze the false claim though, the claim that Rev has good cleanse:

You've stated it yourself in your above the post, summarized here:
6 clears for condi ren on 10s CD (Legend Swap) + 5/30
4 clears for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

except that ignores that:
3 of those clears are linked to Sigil of Cleansing, which every class has access to and can run double of so that they ALSO get 3 clears every 10s.  So as soon as you realize that the argument becomes:

3 clears for condi ren on 10s CD + 5/30
1 clear for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

Let's look at other classes:

1) Healing skills: Every class except mesmer has access to a core healing skill that also cleanses conditions in some way.  Mesmer's Chronomancer has access to one through Well of Eternity.  Jalis's "5/30" is not unique here in the least, especially since its counterpart, Warrior's "mending," does 5/15 (or 10/30, adjusted).  Other notable examples include Necromancer's "Consume Conditions which eats every single condi on you, so X/30.  Also, Soulbeast's "Bear Stance" can be traited to remove a whopping 12/25.  These are just the healing skills, we haven't gotten to anything else yet. 

2) Utility Skills: Every class EXCEPT Revenant, given the correct trait/rune/build choices, can slot 3 utilities that cleanse conditions.  Even with access to 6 utilities, Revenant can only slot 2!  And one of those two is "Ventari" which is awful and the other is Shiro's Riposting Shadows, which doesn't remove damaging conditions.  Again, Every other class can slot 3 utilities at least that can remove conditions, ESPECIALLY damaging ones

3) Elite Skills:  Elite skills that can cleanse condis inherently are somewhat rare.  Revenant, Ranger, Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, and Necromancer all have access to or can build to allow at least 1 of their Elite Skills to cleanse condis.  However, Revenant's elite that can cleanse condis is "Energy Expulsion" on Ventari, which....is not great.  Most of the other Elite Skills that can cleanse/or be traited/runed to cleanse are...far better than Ventari...

^The point of this is that EVERY class besides Rev can take 4 (or 5 in some cases) extra skills that can cleanse if they want.  This doesn't even include the additonal

4) Traits:  Every class, including Rev, has at least 2 Core Traits that can cleanse condis.  Most have 3 or more.  Many of these traits are as effective or better than Cleansing Channel and Permeating Pestillence.  Let's take a look at some of the good ones:

Guardian:  Smiter's Boon cures 2/20 and is a must for many builds.  DH can even remove a condition every time it blocks with Hunter's Fortification.  No ICD.  Skies the limit with that one. 

Ranger: Ranger has several traits that can remove or mitigate conditions, but the best one is very clearly Druidic Clarity which can be as strong as 13/11 or as spread out as 13/25.  That is insanely more powerful than anything Rev has, and that doesn't even include their utility or other traits. 

Necromancer: Necromancer has insane condition removal/transfer that far outpaces anything Rev can put out.  Necro can remove 1 every 3s (1/3) while in shroud, pass off conditions to minions 1/10 per minion, and even lose 3 when leaving shroud.  Scourge can remove 1 per Barrier application as well. 

I could keep going with this since there's even more for other classes as well.  This list also doesn't include weapon or profession skills that remove conditions as well, which there are many of.

The point is, Every class BESIDES Rev CAN slot and build for FAR MORE than 6 every 10s (or Power Rev's measly 4/10).  While Rev CAN slot for some extra cleanse besides its traits, it's actively punished for doing so since Ventari is absolute trash outside of PvE (and even there it's not great).  EVERY other class can slot and build around conditions even further if they want without being directly punished for it. 
 

Let me add onto this real quick by bringing up you're sacrificing substantial damage on your rotation by taking sigil of cleansing as our legend swap procs our weapon sigils. Granted you could run sigil of cleansing on one weapon for each set, and likely have a ton of cleansing but this is only the case if you're playing to survive. The damage you get from your sigils procing can make or break an engagement; And since rev's damage while nothing to sneeze at is not as high as other classes most players will want to take more damage over sustain.

So essentially unless you're camping renegade double short bow, you are gimping yourself. The only reason double short bow can get away with it is because of its range, but once the gap is closed it becomes bad news bears. Most will still run staff as mobility/utility weapon. 

Im not even sure if legend swap procing your sigils is even intended at this stage, I wouldn't be surprised if it was patched out at some interval. This class used to be very technical and have a ton of little interactions in it that made up a greater whole, over time thats been stripped away. We currently have a lite version of what revenant was and seemingly was intended to be. It was made more simplistic because people simply wouldn't adapt. ( Side rant over)

If they do patch out legends procing the sigils, then the cleansing is reduced even further than it would be if you had each weapon set camped with a singular sigil of cleansing.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Thornwolf.9721

[lodjur.1284]

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Dude, Rev has very limited build diversity.  This isn't some rocket science that only you have figured out.  It's completely obvious what you take or don't take for condition management.  I'm not going to go create several links on Build Editor and link them here since we all know exactly what I would be linking.

 

Idk you say that. Yet you struggle with condi and I don't. 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Let's analyze the false claim though, the claim that Rev has good cleanse:

You've stated it yourself in your above the post, summarized here:
6 clears for condi ren on 10s CD (Legend Swap) + 5/30
4 clears for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

except that ignores that:
3 of those clears are linked to Sigil of Cleansing, which every class has access to and can run double of so that they ALSO get 3 clears every 10s.  So as soon as you realize that the argument becomes:

3 clears for condi ren on 10s CD + 5/30
1 clear for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

 

Rev got the best synergy with Cleansing Sigil of any class, by far.  It's the only where you can pick if you wanna proc it very clear to CD or have control over it midfight.

 

Core Condi has staff and PE together btw.

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Let's look at other classes:

1) Healing skills: Every class except mesmer has access to a core healing skill that also cleanses conditions in some way.  Mesmer's Chronomancer has access to one through Well of Eternity.  Jalis's "5/30" is not unique here in the least, especially since its counterpart, Warrior's "mending," does 5/15 (or 10/30, adjusted).  Other notable examples include Necromancer's "Consume Conditions which eats every single condi on you, so X/30.  Also, Soulbeast's "Bear Stance" can be traited to remove a whopping 12/25.  These are just the healing skills, we haven't gotten to anything else yet. 

 

Rev heals are supposed to be worse. We got 2 of them. 

 

Never said it's unique just said it's there. 

 

Also ye bear stance deserves a nerf. 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

2) Utility Skills: Every class EXCEPT Revenant, given the correct trait/rune/build choices, can slot 3 utilities that cleanse conditions.  Even with access to 6 utilities, Revenant can only slot 2!  And one of those two is "Ventari" which is awful and the other is Shiro's Riposting Shadows, which doesn't remove damaging conditions.  Again, Every other class can slot 3 utilities at least that can remove conditions, ESPECIALLY damaging ones

3) Elite Skills:  Elite skills that can cleanse condis inherently are somewhat rare.  Revenant, Ranger, Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, and Necromancer all have access to or can build to allow at least 1 of their Elite Skills to cleanse condis.  However, Revenant's elite that can cleanse condis is "Energy Expulsion" on Ventari, which....is not great.  Most of the other Elite Skills that can cleanse/or be traited/runed to cleanse are...far better than Ventari...

^The point of this is that EVERY class besides Rev can take 4 (or 5 in some cases) extra skills that can cleanse if they want.  This doesn't even include the additonal

4) Traits:  Every class, including Rev, has at least 2 Core Traits that can cleanse condis.  Most have 3 or more.  Many of these traits are as effective or better than Cleansing Channel and Permeating Pestillence.  Let's take a look at some of the good ones:

 

How many of them have very good synergy with Cleansing Sigil, I can think of one

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Guardian:  Smiter's Boon cures 2/20 and is a must for many builds.  DH can even remove a condition every time it blocks with Hunter's Fortification.  No ICD.  Skies the limit with that one. 

 

Hunter's Fortification got a 1 sec ICD

 

2/20 vs 2/10 hard math, also what heal has low enough CD to proc SB every 20?

 

At least mention actual good clears. 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Ranger: Ranger has several traits that can remove or mitigate conditions, but the best one is very clearly Druidic Clarity which can be as strong as 13/11 or as spread out as 13/25.  That is insanely more powerful than anything Rev has, and that doesn't even include their utility or other traits. 

Ranger is busted against condi, what's new?

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Necromancer: Necromancer has insane condition removal/transfer that far outpaces anything Rev can put out.  Necro can remove 1 every 3s (1/3) while in shroud, pass off conditions to minions 1/10 per minion, and even lose 3 when leaving shroud.  Scourge can remove 1 per Barrier application as well. 

 

Minions. Yes. I am being trolled.

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I could keep going with this since there's even more for other classes as well.  This list also doesn't include weapon or profession skills that remove conditions as well, which there are many of.

 

Other classes got stuff too ye. 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The point is, Every class BESIDES Rev CAN slot and build for FAR MORE than 6 every 10s (or Power Rev's measly 4/10).  While Rev CAN slot for some extra cleanse besides its traits, it's actively punished for doing so since Ventari is absolute trash outside of PvE (and even there it's not great).  EVERY other class can slot and build around conditions even further if they want without being directly punished for it. 
 

Idk I don't struggle and run extremely clear light supports with me (such as WET without trooper). According to logs I do 85-95% of my own clears and condi overall just isn't an issue. 

 

In fact it's less of an issue after the patch. 

 

Ren feels better against condi than for example burnbrand with traited mantra clear + PF (tho ofc more selfish) 

 

This is mostly due to being very synergistic with cleansing Sigil. 

 

The ability to proc 6/10 or 3/10 while saving Cleansing gives you low CD burst clears. Add to this that it's all instant and essentially at no cost. 

 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:56 AM, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Let me add onto this real quick by bringing up you're sacrificing substantial damage on your rotation by taking sigil of cleansing as our legend swap procs our weapon sigils. Granted you could run sigil of cleansing on one weapon for each set, and likely have a ton of cleansing but this is only the case if you're playing to survive. The damage you get from your sigils procing can make or break an engagement; And since rev's damage while nothing to sneeze at is not as high as other classes most players will want to take more damage over sustain.

 

Sigils are absolutely not a very big part of your damage. 

 

For Power or condi. 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:56 AM, Thornwolf.9721 said:

So essentially unless you're camping renegade double short bow, you are gimping yourself. The only reason double short bow can get away with it is because of its range, but once the gap is closed it becomes bad news bears. Most will still run staff as mobility/utility weapon. 

 

Ren should never use double SB, generally SB+Mace for condi and SB+Staff for Power (or sb+mace in a group setting)

On 6/8/2021 at 3:56 AM, Thornwolf.9721 said:

 

Im not even sure if legend swap procing your sigils is even intended at this stage, I wouldn't be surprised if it was patched out at some interval. This class used to be very technical and have a ton of little interactions in it that made up a greater whole, over time thats been stripped away. We currently have a lite version of what revenant was and seemingly was intended to be. It was made more simplistic because people simply wouldn't adapt. ( Side rant over)

 

I can't imagine it not being intended. 

On 6/8/2021 at 3:56 AM, Thornwolf.9721 said:

If they do patch out legends procing the sigils, then the cleansing is reduced even further than it would be if you had each weapon set camped with a singular sigil of cleansing.

That would be quite a nerf. I think it would be possible to work around in renegade at least, would hit core a bit harder. 

[Thornwolf.9721]

1 minute ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Idk you say that. Yet you struggle with condi and I don't. 

Rev got the best synergy with Cleansing Sigil of any class, by far.  It's the only where you can pick if you wanna proc it very clear to CD or have control over it midfight.

 

Core Condi has staff and PE together btw.

Rev heals are supposed to be worse. We got 2 of them. 

 

Never said it's unique just said it's there. 

 

Also ye bear stance deserves a nerf. 

How many of them have very good synergy with Cleansing Sigil, I can think of one

Hunter's Fortification got a 1 sec ICD

 

2/20 vs 2/10 hard math, also what heal has low enough CD to proc SB every 20?

 

At least mention actual good clears. 

Ranger is busted against condi, what's new?

Minions. Yes. I am being trolled.

Other classes got stuff too ye. 

Idk I don't struggle and run extremely clear light supports with me (such as WET without trooper). According to logs I do 85-95% of my own clears and condi overall just isn't an issue. 

 

In fact it's less of an issue after the patch. 

 

Ren feels better against condi than for example burnbrand with traited mantra clear + PF (tho ofc more selfish) 

 

This is mostly due to being very synergistic with cleansing Sigil. 

 

The ability to proc 6/10 or 3/10 while saving Cleansing gives you low CD burst clears. Add to this that it's all instant and essentially at no cost. 

 

Sigils are absolutely not a very big part of your damage. 

 

For Power or condi. 

Ren should never use double SB, generally SB+Mace for condi and SB+Staff for Power (or sb+mace in a group setting)

I can't imagine it not being intended. 

That would be quite a nerf. I think it would be possible to work around in renegade at least, would hit core a bit harder. 

The goal is to kill core and herald, which for you is great news! We know you love ren but most of the rest of us hate it. So its basically a middle finger to us.

[lodjur.1284]

2 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

The goal is to kill core and herald, which for you is great news! We know you love ren but most of the rest of us hate it. So its basically a middle finger to us.

Core got the same changes as ren.

 

Core and Ren are the ones that got stuff in common. Not Core and Herald.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 6/7/2021 at 11:38 PM, Buran.3796 said:

  Jalis has plenty of cleanses, Glint + Jalis is one of the safest combos against condition pressure in the game. Sadly that build doesn't delivers enough damage. Works ok as a bunker but you are very limited in  weapons because one of few the physical damage ones (the hammer) neither provides damage enough or cc enough to be a decent choice vs other bunkers/bruisers in the game.

 

   Condi Rev is chaotic in nature because has high burst of damage and wreks foes in teamfights, but at the same time is predictable and has weak defenses vs conditions. That's in PvP, because in PvE/WvW tormenting runes lets you to tank absurds amounts of enemies.

 

   Needs Rev more condi cleanses? Maybe, but not as much as a whole revamp of the hammer (and that extends to Warrior's and Guardian's hammers). I don't understand why ANet designs weapons that remain unused in every game mode...

 

Herald ventari also has cleanses on its F2 and  a cleanse on tablet, plus players atacking trough its  dome will trigger a condi cleanse, the ventari elite can clear 10 condis from each of the 5 targets yeah hard to pull if not impossible since it need the ventari rev to be AFK and fill its enegy..

 

2 things that need to be changed in Rev legends imo mor urgent isthe the old  deamon resistance skill that pulls condis (forgot its name )and ventari elite skill.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

9 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Idk you say that. Yet you struggle with condi and I don't. 

Rev got the best synergy with Cleansing Sigil of any class, by far.  It's the only where you can pick if you wanna proc it very clear to CD or have control over it midfight.

 

Core Condi has staff and PE together btw.

Rev heals are supposed to be worse. We got 2 of them. 

 

Never said it's unique just said it's there. 

 

Also ye bear stance deserves a nerf. 

How many of them have very good synergy with Cleansing Sigil, I can think of one

Hunter's Fortification got a 1 sec ICD

 

2/20 vs 2/10 hard math, also what heal has low enough CD to proc SB every 20?

 

At least mention actual good clears. 

Ranger is busted against condi, what's new?

Minions. Yes. I am being trolled.

Other classes got stuff too ye. 

Idk I don't struggle and run extremely clear light supports with me (such as WET without trooper). According to logs I do 85-95% of my own clears and condi overall just isn't an issue. 

 

In fact it's less of an issue after the patch. 

 

Ren feels better against condi than for example burnbrand with traited mantra clear + PF (tho ofc more selfish) 

 

This is mostly due to being very synergistic with cleansing Sigil. 

 

The ability to proc 6/10 or 3/10 while saving Cleansing gives you low CD burst clears. Add to this that it's all instant and essentially at no cost.

So, all of your nitpicks are completely irrelevant because it completely misses the point of the entire post.  The point is every class besides Rev can run 4 (or 5) heal/utility/elite skills that clear condi, PLUS traits, PLUS weapon skills, PLUS Profession Skills (sometimes), PLUS double sigil of cleansing (yes, every class can get as much cleanse from Cleansing, you just have to run double...).  This leads to every class having higher and better cleanse than Rev.  Nitpicking one or two individual traits/skills mentioned is irrelevant since they're used/can be used in conjunction with a whole host of other cleanse skills. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[lodjur.1284]

4 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

So, all of your nitpicks are completely irrelevant because it completely misses the point of the entire post.  The point is every class besides Rev can run 4 (or 5) heal/utility/elite skills that clear condi, PLUS traits, PLUS weapon skills, PLUS Profession Skills (sometimes), PLUS double sigil of cleansing (yes, every class can get as much cleanse from Cleansing, you just have to run double...).  This leads to every class having higher and better cleanse than Rev.  Nitpicking one or two individual traits/skills mentioned is irrelevant since they're used/can be used in conjunction with a whole host of other cleanse skills. 

So what matters isn't how good Condi management Revenant has but how good you can use it to make a meme anti condi build that is bad against everything else and achieves nothing?

 

I can see why you loved transfer Herald. 

 

Cool

 

Also not every class naturally wants to swap every 10 sec as part of their natural gameplay

Edited June 9, 2021 by lodjur.1284