Give Rev more ways to manage conditions

Thornwolf.9721 · June 9, 2021

2 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

So what matters isn't how good Condi management Revenant has but how good you can use it to make a meme anti condi build that is bad against everything else and achieves nothing?

I can see why you loved transfer Herald.

Cool

Also not every class naturally wants to swap every 10 sec as part of their natural gameplay

It was designed to function that way, its not our fault A-net sucks at class design. Either repurpose it into condition consumes and make it baby necro/warrior hybrid or just nerf it to a point where it ceases to exist is the mentality of these dev's. They chose the easier option which is essentially delete condi herald and leave power herald as a meme; The spec and sub-class should NOT be insufferable to play and should not be balanced around renegade existing.

8 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Core got the same changes as ren.

Core and Ren are the ones that got stuff in common. Not Core and Herald.

And that is precisely the problem, just remove herald at this point because Renegade does what it does far better with less effort required. Hell remake revenant as renegade and make renegade core, remove all the other nuances (Just delete Devastation at this point, pretty clear you can't stand it. Remove mallyx and corruption and just make a generic condi line with condi-amps and give rev every condi in the game to make it a suto of necromancer with a twinge of warrior or guardian.) Its becoming abundantly clear that A-net doesn't understand the class, nor care for that matter. The reason Herald got nerfed into oblivion is because its not the baby of the current dev's and likely they got killed by both its variants so it needed to be "toned down" when in reality condition herald was extremely oppressive to specific classes.

My spellbreaker, soulbeast, druid, core ranger, core revenant could easily slap condi herald in a one vs one scenario which is normally where you'd find them. (That or small man) and if you just focus the kitten thing it was easy to deal with, Its not rocket science but every time rev has a build that counters "specific" classes. (Especially condi builds, thieves or messmers of any variant) People come and Reeee on the forums until it gets absolutely demolished. Hell I remember when they completely F'd over power herald and basically pushed everyone to condi. Power herald at that point and time countered its condition variant, which meant that with roaming power heralds you'd see the condition heralds either play ultra defensively or simply stick to small man/zerg play. (Zerg play is a meme and always has been.)

But its completely Ok in your book for renegade to be a bloated over tuned mess, and herald to suck. Seems legit. I get that you like the spec but it completely kitten near invalidates both core and herald. Core doesn't offer enough to a group, herald OUR DEDICATED BOON SUPPORT SPEC lacks any form of group utility if you compare it to renegade. I now see tons of the buggers in WvW because they simply are better than herald. (Heralds now are relegated to back-line zergs, and its debatable on if they are better than renegades there.)

Shiro is completely worthless now, the legend is legit only taken in PvE for impossible Odds. In WvW and PvP you can run it and make it work but its no where near as good of a legend.
Mallyx is taken because in terms of legend choices for renegades, its one of the only ones worth taking. (Again the power variant can take shiro for jade daggers + Impossible odds + Sevenshot For big burst but its not often seen from where I've been as a roamer/small man.)
They take jalis because its the only other working legend in the mode. So its Jalis/mallyx usually especially in small man as I rarely if ever see kalla actually run as a legend choice (Outside of meme builds or highly skilled play in small man.)
Glint sucks, as does herald. It was once good but it just doesn't offer as much when compared to the other E-spec and lacks the ability to survive like core surprisingly has which I have a feeling will be "toned down" for the sake of "balance"
Renegade is becoming the defacto way to play, where people see renegade as the class and disregard the rest of revenant (Outside of the playerbase that loves rev.)
Mallyx now has no identity and is a meme, he was supposed to be the anti-condi build. Now he is more of a "He can kinda deal with condi's" legend where honestly Jalis NOW does condition management better.

So the only thing I hope happens now is that the next spec comes along and invalidates renegade, just like renegade has done to herald. Making it the best in slot for most game-modes, again you can make ANY variant of the class work but when one aspect of the class is easier to play than the rest most players will go there. Renegade is an easier and less taxing version of the class, so until it has some depth and actual learn curve it will forever outshine the other two. Gamers are lazy, inherently as are humans as a species outside of a few outliers. The path of least resistance is exactly where the majority go, a prime example as to why some classes just are played less than others. (Engineer, rev and to some extent I'd say ele's. Because those classes at least used to be more technical than the rest. Like why beat my head against a wall when I can just play guardian and do everything better than the other two heavies with less effort required? As well be desired in ALL game modes? Thats right. Most wont.)

lodjur.1284 · June 9, 2021

18 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

It was designed to function that way, its not our fault A-net sucks at class design. Either repurpose it into condition consumes and make it baby necro/warrior hybrid or just nerf it to a point where it ceases to exist is the mentality of these dev's. They chose the easier option which is essentially delete condi herald and leave power herald as a meme; The spec and sub-class should NOT be insufferable to play and should not be balanced around renegade existing.

What exactly on Core has gotten nerfed because of Renegade's performance in WvW, give one example.

18 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

And that is precisely the problem, just remove herald at this point because Renegade does what it does far better with less effort required. Hell remake revenant as renegade and make renegade core, remove all the other nuances (Just delete Devastation at this point, pretty clear you can't stand it. Remove mallyx and corruption and just make a generic condi line with condi-amps and give rev every condi in the game to make it a suto of necromancer with a twinge of warrior or guardian.) Its becoming abundantly clear that A-net doesn't understand the class, nor care for that matter. The reason Herald got nerfed into oblivion is because its not the baby of the current dev's and likely they got killed by both its variants so it needed to be "toned down" when in reality condition herald was extremely oppressive to specific classes.

Corruption is a generic condi line mostly.

Got nothing against devastation, it's a very generic power traitline that isn't in an amazing spot at the moment, but I hate it no more than any other the other 10-ish generic power traitlines in the game. Shiro is an unhealthy legend, but that is hardly on the devastation traitline.

Tbf devastation could be kind cool if battle scars had somewhat reasonable values in WvW.

"condition herald was extremely oppressive to specific classes."

Ye that sounds like an excellent reason to nerf it.

Also do note the "nerf" you're talking about. Is changing a gamewide boon that provided extremely high uptimes of invulnerability to an entire damage type!! and allowed extremely degenerate play

18 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

My spellbreaker, soulbeast, druid, core ranger, core revenant could easily slap condi herald in a one vs one scenario which is normally where you'd find them. (That or small man) and if you just focus the kitten thing it was easy to deal with, Its not rocket science but every time rev has a build that counters "specific" classes. (Especially condi builds, thieves or messmers of any variant) People come and Reeee on the forums until it gets absolutely demolished. Hell I remember when they completely F'd over power herald and basically pushed everyone to condi. Power herald at that point and time countered its condition variant, which meant that with roaming power heralds you'd see the condition heralds either play ultra defensively or simply stick to small man/zerg play. (Zerg play is a meme and always has been.)

They didn't push power herald players to condi herald, power herald players would most likely swap to a different high mobility high burst class

18 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

But its completely Ok in your book for renegade to be a bloated over tuned mess, and herald to suck. Seems legit. I get that you like the spec but it completely kitten near invalidates both core and herald. Core doesn't offer enough to a group, herald OUR DEDICATED BOON SUPPORT SPEC lacks any form of group utility if you compare it to renegade. I now see tons of the buggers in WvW because they simply are better than herald. (Heralds now are relegated to back-line zergs, and its debatable on if they are better than renegades there.)

Yet it's support aspects didn't get nerfed.

I am all for remaking herald and giving it an identity, it does need an identity

I am all for removing whatever support aspects Renegade (that would be only f4) has too, they're all but useless

Also herald is def more common in zergs, but I'd imagine Renegade should outperform it there due to double ranged weapons and higher damage passives, no glint heal to carry you though, either way ye zerging braindead.

18 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Shiro is completely worthless now, the legend is legit only taken in PvE for impossible Odds. In WvW and PvP you can run it and make it work but its no where near as good of a legend.

Mallyx is taken because in terms of legend choices for renegades, its one of the only ones worth taking. (Again the power variant can take shiro for jade daggers + Impossible odds + Sevenshot For big burst but its not often seen from where I've been as a roamer/small man.)

They take jalis because its the only other working legend in the mode. So its Jalis/mallyx usually especially in small man as I rarely if ever see kalla actually run as a legend choice (Outside of meme builds or highly skilled play in small man.)

Glint sucks, as does herald. It was once good but it just doesn't offer as much when compared to the other E-spec and lacks the ability to survive like core surprisingly has which I have a feeling will be "toned down" for the sake of "balance"

Renegade is becoming the defacto way to play, where people see renegade as the class and disregard the rest of revenant (Outside of the playerbase that loves rev.)

Mallyx now has no identity and is a meme, he was supposed to be the anti-condi build. Now he is more of a "He can kinda deal with condi's" legend where honestly Jalis NOW does condition management better.

1. Because mobility and evades are so weak in WvW... (obviously sarcastic)

2. Mallyx is the identity of Condi Rev.

3. Jalis is good ye? Kalla is essentially completely killed now btw

4. Glint is still the ultimate carry legend, 3 sec instant invuln with upside is still busted

5. I barely see any renegades, more power ones than condi, but overall very few

6. Mallyx is still the "Get in the thick of it high rish, high reward legend" but it's identity is very closely tied to tormenting runes

18 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

So the only thing I hope happens now is that the next spec comes along and invalidates renegade, just like renegade has done to herald. Making it the best in slot for most game-modes, again you can make ANY variant of the class work but when one aspect of the class is easier to play than the rest most players will go there. Renegade is an easier and less taxing version of the class, so until it has some depth and actual learn curve it will forever outshine the other two. Gamers are lazy, inherently as are humans as a species outside of a few outliers. The path of least resistance is exactly where the majority go, a prime example as to why some classes just are played less than others. (Engineer, rev and to some extent I'd say ele's. Because those classes at least used to be more technical than the rest. Like why beat my head against a wall when I can just play guardian and do everything better than the other two heavies with less effort required? As well be desired in ALL game modes? Thats right. Most wont.)

Renegade hasn't invalidated herald.

In terms of damage it goes, This is ofc for condi

Renegade > Core >>>>>> Herald

Renegade mostly does more because of having a second weaponset that has actual condi skills, if shortbow was a core weapon then core would most likely be better than Renegade. But the two are extremely similar in playstyle

Also in terms of difficulty for Condi it goes Renegade > Core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herald

If you run Core without staff it's about the same difficulty as Renegade, but there is ofc no alternative weapon

Note how all the "nerfs" to Revenant were global, not Core, not Herald, not Renegade specific, yet only heralds actually seem to be upset over it. Maybe it's because Condi Core/Renegades have more buttons than Pain Abso+True Nature - Demon?

LucianTheAngelic.7054 · June 9, 2021

3 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

So what matters isn't how good Condi management Revenant has but how good you can use it to make a meme anti condi build that is bad against everything else and achieves nothing?

Your “meme anti-Condi build that’s bad at everything” assertion is a huge unfounded assumption. Every class besides rev can comfortably slot 2-3 heals/utilities that deal with condis in addition to their other traits, skills etc. and still have an extremely effective meta build. Some meta builds even slot 5 cleanse utilities + traits naturally and are still extremely effective. You don’t even need to slot 5 extra skills, plus traits, sigils, weapons in order to have more cleanse than rev, but it’s still an option for every class besides rev. That’s literally the point.

3 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

I can see why you loved transfer Herald.

Cool

Also not every class naturally wants to swap every 10 sec as part of their natural gameplay

Ignoring the lowkey and lowbar ad hominems that you love so much...

rev doesn’t necessarily want to swap every 10s either. It always depends on the situation at the time. Assuming that rev is swapping every 10s is a fallacy and punches more holes into the argument

Lighter.5631 · June 9, 2021

revenant never had problem with condition ever, they had to nerf recently, because renegade was literally taking 0% condition damage in PvE and PvP had like 88% condition damage reduction with dwarf hammer and perma 68% condition damage reduction in meta build with all the modifiers after retaliation change.

and none of these uses corruption

even now pvp meta renegade build has perma 53% condi damage reduction and 73% with hammer.

probably gonna get nerfed again with next pvp focus balance patch.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Lighter.5631

lodjur.1284 · June 9, 2021

19 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Your “meme anti-Condi build that’s bad at everything” assertion is a huge unfounded assumption. Every class besides rev can comfortably slot 2-3 heals/utilities that deal with condis in addition to their other traits, skills etc. and still have an extremely effective meta build. Some meta builds even slot 5 cleanse utilities + traits naturally and are still extremely effective. You don’t even need to slot 5 extra skills, plus traits, sigils, weapons in order to have more cleanse than rev, but it’s still an option for every class besides rev. That’s literally the point.

And rev gets to play with 2 excellent condi clearing traits or in the case of power, 1 and a playstyle that needs less clears

Rev has comparable clears to say burnbrand, slightly better personal, but no group ones

19 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Ignoring the lowkey and lowbar ad hominems that you love so much...

You do defend a degenerate playstyle then get insulted that someone says you love that playstyle

19 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

rev doesn’t necessarily want to swap every 10s either. It always depends on the situation at the time. Assuming that rev is swapping every 10s is a fallacy and punches more holes into the argument

Very close to every 10 sec, bit longer from Demon I guess, but not very much, anymore is a waste of energy and thus valuable damage

Aeolus.3615 · June 9, 2021

@LucianTheAngelic.7054

Fyi

- staff removes 2 condis and its a heals and blast

- shield 5 removes 1 per pulse with 4 pulses roots the caster and unblockables can kill it, also bad skill if u have torment and isnt the 1st condi to get cleared.

- shield 4 removed 1 condi aoe and its a aoe heal and prot

Edited June 9, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

MithranArkanere.8957 · June 9, 2021

Revenant desperately needs a 4th utility skill per legend, letting you pick 3 out of 4.

That would create room to put more effects like condition cleanse without stacking them on skills that already do other things, and give revenants the choices they need to have more build variety.

LucianTheAngelic.7054 · June 9, 2021

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

And rev gets to play with 2 excellent condi clearing traits or in the case of power, 1 and a playstyle that needs less clears

Rev has comparable clears to say burnbrand, slightly better personal, but no group ones

And S/D thief for example gets to play with 5 utilities that clear condis in addition to traits and weapon skills. I mention this because it’s comparable to Power Rev for roaming and performs better. I can play the “cherry pick a class’s meta build that typically takes more or less cleanse” too. You’re still missing the overall point which is clear in my first post if you want to reread it.

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

You do defend a degenerate playstyle then get insulted that someone says you love that playstyle

Only degenerate in your opinion. And Let’s be real you meant me no love with that comment. If you’re going to insult someone (which you’ve done over the course of many posts over several months in order to try to lend more credence to your argument through fallacious ad hominems) at least be brave enough to accept the call out about it afterwards.

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Very close to every 10 sec, bit longer from Demon I guess, but not very much, anymore is a waste of energy and thus valuable damage

Completely depends on the situation. Can be anywhere from 10-15. Sometimes even longer. You should know this since you play rev at an extremely high level in WvW small group roaming.

Edited June 9, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054 · June 9, 2021

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054

Fyi

- staff removes 2 condis and its a heals and blast

- shield 5 removes 1 per pulse with 4 pulses roots the caster and unblockables can kill it, also bad skill if u have torment and isnt the 1st condi to get cleared.

- shield 4 removed 1 condi aoe and its a aoe heal and prot

I’m aware of these but they’re not entirely relevant to the overall conversation. Refer back to my large post on the previous page.

Edited June 9, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

Thornwolf.9721 · June 9, 2021

2 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

What exactly on Core has gotten nerfed because of Renegade's performance in WvW, give one example.

Corruption is a generic condi line mostly.

Got nothing against devastation, it's a very generic power traitline that isn't in an amazing spot at the moment, but I hate it no more than any other the other 10-ish generic power traitlines in the game. Shiro is an unhealthy legend, but that is hardly on the devastation traitline.

Tbf devastation could be kind cool if battle scars had somewhat reasonable values in WvW.

"condition herald was extremely oppressive to specific classes."

Ye that sounds like an excellent reason to nerf it.

Also do note the "nerf" you're talking about. Is changing a gamewide boon that provided extremely high uptimes of invulnerability to an entire damage type!! and allowed extremely degenerate play

They didn't push power herald players to condi herald, power herald players would most likely swap to a different high mobility high burst class

Yet it's support aspects didn't get nerfed.

I am all for remaking herald and giving it an identity, it does need an identity

I am all for removing whatever support aspects Renegade (that would be only f4) has too, they're all but useless

Also herald is def more common in zergs, but I'd imagine Renegade should outperform it there due to double ranged weapons and higher damage passives, no glint heal to carry you though, either way ye zerging braindead.

1. Because mobility and evades are so weak in WvW... (obviously sarcastic)

2. Mallyx is the identity of Condi Rev.

3. Jalis is good ye? Kalla is essentially completely killed now btw

4. Glint is still the ultimate carry legend, 3 sec instant invuln with upside is still busted

5. I barely see any renegades, more power ones than condi, but overall very few

6. Mallyx is still the "Get in the thick of it high rish, high reward legend" but it's identity is very closely tied to tormenting runes

Renegade hasn't invalidated herald.

In terms of damage it goes, This is ofc for condi

Renegade > Core >>>>>> Herald

Renegade mostly does more because of having a second weaponset that has actual condi skills, if shortbow was a core weapon then core would most likely be better than Renegade. But the two are extremely similar in playstyle

Also in terms of difficulty for Condi it goes Renegade > Core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herald

If you run Core without staff it's about the same difficulty as Renegade, but there is ofc no alternative weapon

Note how all the "nerfs" to Revenant were global, not Core, not Herald, not Renegade specific, yet only heralds actually seem to be upset over it. Maybe it's because Condi Core/Renegades have more buttons than Pain Abso+True Nature - Demon?

Oh so power heralds just had to swap classes, F-that kind of mindset. Then I hope that condi revenant as a whole gets trashed too. Trash the whole class so we ALL have to swap to have fun, play a DIFFERENT class then the one we love. That has to be the worst and most degenerative way to look at game design and anyone with that mindset, shouldn't have a job in class design. Thats how you get people to quit your game. "I love this about this class, I could understand some nerfs." then the dev's come in and basically tell you that you're wrong for liking it and to go play thief. Disgusting.

Oh? So the classes condi-herald countered should be left unchecked? So I take it because daredevil counters some classes, so do soul-beasts they should be nerfed into the ground and made worthless to right? I like your logic. Nerf messmer into oblivion on all specs, nerf thief to be unplayable and while we're at it just remove guardian and engineer from the game because they can counter ENTIRE playstyles with specific builds.

Condi-heralds role was to punish condition and high mobility builds, but they absolutely sucked at being kited around by range and picked off. Again soul-beast says hello; As does deadeye. Heck Im pretty sure a smart rifle warrior, as meme as it is could absolutely wreck a condi-herald if played carefully. So because it counters conditions which right now seems to be most prominent way to play it was bad? Thats NOT the builds fault, that is kitten poor development of the game and its balance to begin with. Because back when more power builds function, it was kept in check. This is what happens when you nerf the counter to specific builds and why a trinity-less system fails fundamentally. You HAVE to have something that counters X because if you don't its left unchecked, and then it stomps Y and Z because it counters both of those. Spellbreaker used to absolutely destroy condi-heralds back before CC did no damage acrossed the board. (A mistake.) Any power based high burst, cc class could counter Condi-herald. Any ranged based kite build could counter condi-herald. Its these stupid condition users who were just trying to face roll the COUNTER to their playstyle.

So lets be honest, by your logic they just need to remove 90% of the classes/builds and give us sticks with one skill each with the same scaling and builds with one utility each because THEN the game will be 100% balanced and it will be twitch based who hits first wins. Because they just keep removing counters to SPECIFIC classes which don't need to be helped, Condi-mirage would not be the plauge on existence it is again in roaming if condi-herald was still present. Because Condi-herald would just completely negate the entire build; Which is healthy. It makes it so there is a healthy ecosystem of play, and while I know you HATE roaming and look down on anyone who does it I feel the same way about being carried by four people. Its essentially punishing people who love ONE class or only want to main ONE as well roamers in general, this has been a net-negative and just because YOU Dont like it doesn't mean its degenerative.

This is coming from a power rev player, I don't HAVE a dog in the condition damage race. Because I don't and never did prefer the condition damage revenant playstyle; But I know WAAAY to much about being made to feel like my preferred gameplay style being made unviable in most content/modes unless I play this like Im a professional street fighter player. Its not fair, its not right and if you think we've seen the last of something like Condi-herald? Im pretty sure this next expansion will bring it back even stronger on a different class; Which they've done BOTH times an expansion has rolled around. They nerf builds into oblivion and then sell them back to people on a new class, rather than letting them both exist in tandem with one another.

If the leaks are true, which Im not saying they are then necromancer is basically going to be the exact same kitten thing.

Spoiler

Necromancer:
Afflictor, luxon inspired condi damage spec with mainhand sword. It seemed to borrow from how early revenant Mallyx felt during HoT, where it juggles conditions from others to itself and spreading them around. They got the old resistance back baked in a new effect called ‘tainted flesh’. The spec also naturally spread conditions on foes to foes near them on death or when above certain thresholds, and had an elite skill that transferred conditions from nearby foes to a single foe.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Thornwolf.9721

Aeolus.3615 · June 9, 2021

@Thornwolf.9721 hammer jalis is still quite decent :| hamer had those strange try of reworks but still on decent spot.

Thornwolf.9721 · June 9, 2021

22 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 hammer jalis is still quite decent 😐 hamer had those strange try of reworks but still on decent spot.

Its alright, a bit of a meme though If Im honest.

SDAKendall.6574 · June 9, 2021

I personally do not seem to have any issues with conditions as a Condition Renegade; at least any more than I would deem reasonable.

Permeating Pestilence punishes people who put conditions on you and cleanses you 2 every 10 seconds. Sigil of Cleansing if you need 3 more than that. You don't really NEED a whole lot more straight up removal because of the crazy condition damage reduction you can get. As Renegade you can have a permanent 20% from Righteous Rebel and a lot elsewhere depending on your legend/trait picks.

I am going to assume Mallyx and Jalis for Legends. Invocation and Corruption for Traits.

If in Jalis you can get an extra 5 cleanses from your heal skill in addition to 33% reduction in damage for the ones the remain. 20% reduction from hammers. You should just be laughing at condition damage in Jalis (20% x 20% x 33% = 57% Condition Damage Reduction). If in Mallyx it isn't AS good with Pain Absorption only giving you the 33% for a total of 46% Condition Damage Reduction, however the heal skill scales up in effectiveness with more conditions on you so it sorta helps compensate somewhat.

Now... those should be good enough... but if you really want more and are willing to give up damage for it (like everyone has to if they want to get more than baseline class defenses) you can trade Invocation for Retribution and HO BOY can you shrug them off. You get on demand resolution with Spiritual Resolution and/or Resolute Evasion. Then you can choose to recoup some of the lost damage with Vicious Reprisal (and also make your resolution buff effectively permanent) or pick Versed in Stone and have a reactive 50% ALL damage reduction once you hit half life and buff the active Great Dwarf skill to do the same. You also gain other fringe defenses for making the switch so you get a LOT sturdier if you feel you need to.

Renegade wasn't designed to purge conditions as a primary defense like all the other classes, it was meant to shrug them off with excessive amounts of damage reduction and the occasional cleanse to stop the stacks from getting too high.

Edited June 9, 2021 by SDAKendall.6574

Thornwolf.9721 · June 9, 2021

Just now, SDAKendall.6574 said:

I personally do not seem to have any issues with conditions as a Condition Renegade; at least any more than I would deem reasonable.

Permeating Pestilence punishes people who put conditions on you and cleanses you 2 every 10 seconds. Sigil of Cleansing if you need 3 more than that. You don't really NEED a whole lot more straight up removal because of the crazy condition damage reduction you can get. As Renegade you can have a permanent 20% from Righteous Rebel and a lot elsewhere depending on your legend/trait picks.

I am going to assume Mallyx and Jalis for Legends. Invocation and Corruption for Traits.

If in Jalis you can get an extra 5 cleanses from your heal skill in addition to 33% reduction in damage for the ones the remain. 20% reduction from hammers. You should just be laughing at condition damage in Jalis (20% x 20% x 33% = 57% Condition Damage Reduction). If in Mallyx it isn't AS good with Pain Absorption only giving you the 33% for a total of 46% Condition Damage Reduction, however the heal skill scales up in effectiveness with more conditions on you so it sorta helps compensate somewhat.

Now... those should be good enough... but if you really want more and are willing to give up damage for it (like everyone has to if they want to get more than baseline class defenses) you can trade Invocation for Retribution and HO BOY can you shrug them off. You get on demand resolution with Spiritual Resolution and/or Resolute Evasion. Then you can choose to recoup some of the lost damage with Vicious Reprisal (and also make your resolution buff effectively permanent) or pick Versed in Stone and have a reactive 50% ALL damage reduction once you hit half life and buff the active Great Dwarf skill to do the same. You also gain other fringe defenses for making the switch so you get a LOT sturdier if you feel you need to.

Renegade wasn't designed to purge conditions as a primary defense like all the other classes, it was meant to shrug them off with excessive amounts of damage reduction and the occasional cleanse.

Revenant =/= renegade. Im glad your renegade doesn't suffer the same issues as herald, as a core rev I also share the sentiment that I don't have that many issues with condi's. However Herald on both variants suck now; Id gladly be playing power herald if it wasn't so difficult to do compared to other classes/core. I love herald. Really I do.

But then I hate renegade, don't include renegade in this because its not what most are talking about in here. Renegade stands on its own over in the corner circle jerking the fact that a good chunk of issues revenant has to deal with, it doesn't. We wont swap to renegade. Not ever. We'd of already done it if we were willing too... these guys are talking specifically about the other variants to the class.

( I dont even use jalis as a legend choice, just his traitline in my build with shrio/mallyx to great effect.)

SDAKendall.6574 · June 9, 2021

14 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Revenant =/= renegade. Im glad your renegade doesn't suffer the same issues as herald, as a core rev I also share the sentiment that I don't have that many issues with condi's. However Herald on both variants suck now; Id gladly be playing power herald if it wasn't so difficult to do compared to other classes/core. I love herald. Really I do.

But then I hate renegade, don't include renegade in this because its not what most are talking about in here. Renegade stands on its own over in the corner circle jerking the fact that a good chunk of issues revenant has to deal with, it doesn't. We wont swap to renegade. Not ever. We'd of already done it if we were willing too... these guys are talking specifically about the other variants to the class.

( I dont even use jalis as a legend choice, just his traitline in my build with shrio/mallyx to great effect.)

Renegade is part of Revenant though and in my post I only talked about a single trait from the renegade tree, one that if you are using core (and replacing with Retribution) you have MUCH better tools to replace it with and what I said above still stands. If you are using Herald you gain additional condition cleanse on your shield skills. I am not telling anyone to switch, I just wrote it from my viewpoint as the flavor of Revenant I am most familiar with.

I agree that Herald has it the hardest out of the three though. The way I see it Core has it easiest, then Renegade, then Herald. Any Revenant can get a permanent 33% Condition Damage Reduction through Retribution, and Condition builds can get an easy 5 (3 for Power) Cleanses per 10 seconds with use of the Sigil. Core can fit the Retribution traitline easier than the other two though which is why I feel like it has it easiest when dealing with conditions.

Using Jalis isn't mandatory, but it DOES help with managing conditions substantially if someone is having trouble with that.

Thornwolf.9721 · June 10, 2021

55 minutes ago, SDAKendall.6574 said:

Renegade is part of Revenant though and in my post I only talked about a single trait from the renegade tree, one that if you are using core (and replacing with Retribution) you have MUCH better tools to replace it with and what I said above still stands. If you are using Herald you gain additional condition cleanse on your shield skills. I am not telling anyone to switch, I just wrote it from my viewpoint as the flavor of Revenant I am most familiar with.

I agree that Herald has it the hardest out of the three though. The way I see it Core has it easiest, then Renegade, then Herald. Any Revenant can get a permanent 33% Condition Damage Reduction through Retribution, and Condition builds can get an easy 5 (3 for Power) Cleanses per 10 seconds with use of the Sigil. Core can fit the Retribution traitline easier than the other two though which is why I feel like it has it easiest when dealing with conditions.

Using Jalis isn't mandatory, but it DOES help with managing conditions substantially if someone is having trouble with that.

This is true, Im more a disgruntled power herald main im not trying to come off like im discrediting. Im just tired of people screaming at me to swap to renegade, like I don't understand why people don't get that sometimes its the theme and the playstyle of a spec/combo.

lodjur.1284 · June 10, 2021

10 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Oh so power heralds just had to swap classes, F-that kind of mindset. Then I hope that condi revenant as a whole gets trashed too. Trash the whole class so we ALL have to swap to have fun, play a DIFFERENT class then the one we love. That has to be the worst and most degenerative way to look at game design and anyone with that mindset, shouldn't have a job in class design. Thats how you get people to quit your game. "I love this about this class, I could understand some nerfs." then the dev's come in and basically tell you that you're wrong for liking it and to go play thief. Disgusting.

I guess strawmen are easier to burn down.

First off, Power Herald has never been in a horrible spot or unplayable spot for the environment in which it excels (roaming and 1v1 stuff)

Secondly, if Power Herald ever got nuked, the people playing it would in the vast majority of cases be swapping to something with similar play patterns. This would most likely be Power Warrior, Power Thief or possibly Holo, but what builds most resemble the play patterns of Power Herald might be a discussion for a different thread.

Condition Revenant doesn't have similar play patterns.

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Oh? So the classes condi-herald countered should be left unchecked? So I take it because daredevil counters some classes, so do soul-beasts they should be nerfed into the ground and made worthless to right? I like your logic. Nerf messmer into oblivion on all specs, nerf thief to be unplayable and while we're at it just remove guardian and engineer from the game because they can counter ENTIRE playstyles with specific builds.

If something is "extremely oppressive" then yes.

Regarding Mesmer and Thief (and Ranger to a degree), they do lead to very unhealthy gameplay, that's really more of a mobility+evade spam issue than anything tho, Shiro/Staff kinda has the same issues

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Condi-heralds role was to punish condition and high mobility builds, but they absolutely sucked at being kited around by range and picked off. Again soul-beast says hello; As does deadeye. Heck Im pretty sure a smart rifle warrior, as meme as it is could absolutely wreck a condi-herald if played carefully. So because it counters conditions which right now seems to be most prominent way to play it was bad? Thats NOT the builds fault, that is kitten poor development of the game and its balance to begin with. Because back when more power builds function, it was kept in check. This is what happens when you nerf the counter to specific builds and why a trinity-less system fails fundamentally. You HAVE to have something that counters X because if you don't its left unchecked, and then it stomps Y and Z because it counters both of those. Spellbreaker used to absolutely destroy condi-heralds back before CC did no damage acrossed the board. (A mistake.) Any power based high burst, cc class could counter Condi-herald. Any ranged based kite build could counter condi-herald. Its these stupid condition users who were just trying to face roll the COUNTER to their playstyle.

Herald doesn't punish high mobility builds...

Counters that are on the level of "press 2 buttons to be invulnerable 80%+ of the time and attempt a 1 shot every 20 sec" aren't healthy.

CC no longer doing damage was the best thing to happen to GW2

Herald was never really an issue in 1v1 (except that it kinda stymied diversity, but at least it wasn't ever really top tier 1v1)

It was an issue because of how hard it countered any kind of condi play in smallscale, the same groups we'd easily beat 5v7 (on a normal comp, with proper support etc) would have 1 player swap to Condi Herald and the entire nature of the fight was just entirely about the fact that every 20 seconds the entire group got nuked by 25 stacks of torment and 25 stacks of burning from 1 unavoidable skill. This is absolutely asinine design that meant every single encounter against somewhat "skilled" (if you can even call them that) players you would have 3 choices,

Lose due to True Nature - Demon+Resistance spam

Play the same comp as they do and True Nature - Demon

Make an entire comp just focused on 5v5 or whatever, that specifically was made to counter True Nature - Demon and just give up any plans on doing any real fights

Condi Herald carried players in fights they had no business winning, that they'd never have been able to win on essentially any other build in the game. Add to the fact that it's mediocre for actual outnumbered fights and you essentially force people to pick between being able to beat a few circlejerkers that without herald in the game wouldve achieved nothing at 5v5 and being able to win 5v18s.

That's not countering that's "extremely oppressive" on the meta

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So lets be honest, by your logic they just need to remove 90% of the classes/builds and give us sticks with one skill each with the same scaling and builds with one utility each because THEN the game will be 100% balanced and it will be twitch based who hits first wins. Because they just keep removing counters to SPECIFIC classes which don't need to be helped, Condi-mirage would not be the plauge on existence it is again in roaming if condi-herald was still present. Because Condi-herald would just completely negate the entire build; Which is healthy. It makes it so there is a healthy ecosystem of play, and while I know you HATE roaming and look down on anyone who does it I feel the same way about being carried by four people. Its essentially punishing people who love ONE class or only want to main ONE as well roamers in general, this has been a net-negative and just because YOU Dont like it doesn't mean its degenerative.

Condi Mirage is barely present and like any mirage build, would never die to a condi herald. It might not be able to kill it either, but between blink and staff you can just reset on the herald endlessly.

Condi Herald if anything just punished the more uncommon condi builds that you still barely see in WvW like Condi Ele, Condi Ranger, Condi Engi etc etc that are already in pretty sketchy spots

Mate if all it takes to be good on a build is "Spam pain absorption then True Nature - Demon and close to 1 shot 5 people" and the counterplay for the enemy is "noone run any condi" it's extremely oppressive to build diversity and degenerate.

In fact the little I've solo roamed has felt like it had increased build diversity, due to Condi Herald no longer suppressing every other Condi Build outside of Thief/Mesmer.

Also I just think that roaming takes less skill than outnumbered fights as a group, has less diversity and in general shows less, doesn't mean I didn't beat you without any effort 1v1 does it?

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This is coming from a power rev player, I don't HAVE a dog in the condition damage race. Because I don't and never did prefer the condition damage revenant playstyle; But I know WAAAY to much about being made to feel like my preferred gameplay style being made unviable in most content/modes unless I play this like Im a professional street fighter player. Its not fair, its not right and if you think we've seen the last of something like Condi-herald? Im pretty sure this next expansion will bring it back even stronger on a different class; Which they've done BOTH times an expansion has rolled around. They nerf builds into oblivion and then sell them back to people on a new class, rather than letting them both exist in tandem with one another.

They haven't had anything like 2020 Condi Herald before or after.

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If the leaks are true, which Im not saying they are then necromancer is basically going to be the exact same kitten thing.

Unlikely, thankfully, the leaks read like they're written by someone who has barely played the game.

7 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

This is true, Im more a disgruntled power herald main im not trying to come off like im discrediting. Im just tired of people screaming at me to swap to renegade, like I don't understand why people don't get that sometimes its the theme and the playstyle of a spec/combo.

I don't care what/if you swap to, but Power Herald is more than viable at the moment, same as it's always been, as is power core

Power Renegade is the one that actually got nerfed out of the power rev specs (I guess core a little bit too with the Retri nerf after the big patch, but it's really pretty minor and the Vigor > Reso was kind of a buff for core already)

You finally touch on it, you like the playstyle of Power Herald, hence why it would be very strange to be swapping to Condi Herald IF they nuked Power Herald, because they have less in common than Power Herald and say Thief or Power Herald and Power Warrior.

8 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Revenant =/= renegade. Im glad your renegade doesn't suffer the same issues as herald, as a core rev I also share the sentiment that I don't have that many issues with condi's. However Herald on both variants suck now; Id gladly be playing power herald if it wasn't so difficult to do compared to other classes/core. I love herald. Really I do.

But it is still one of the strongest duelists in the game

Also condi herald still has some of the best Anti Condi tools in the game even without the 80%+ uptime invuln

6 clears on swap

3 clears on demand from f2 in Demon on only 20 sec cd

The incredibly broken busted degenerate dragon heal that I don't get how it's still in the game in the current form

Staff and/or Shield (because there's no other options)

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But then I hate renegade, don't include renegade in this because its not what most are talking about in here. Renegade stands on its own over in the corner circle jerking the fact that a good chunk of issues revenant has to deal with, it doesn't. We wont swap to renegade. Not ever. We'd of already done it if we were willing too... these guys are talking specifically about the other variants to the class.

Renegade and Core share the same issues and balance concerns. Herald doesn't.

Core and Renegade uses the exact same stances. Herald doesn't.

Renegade is essentially just a weapon and some damage modifiers and a downgrade to the F skills (Ancient Echo > Heroic Command+Citadel Bombardment+Orders from Above)

They both run Mallyx+Jalis as condi and Jalis+Shiro (RIP Kalla) as power

The only differences between Renegade and Core balancewise is shortbow.

Swapping Retribution > Renegade as Core Condi is just swapping a strong defensive line for a strong offensive line.

As I said before if Shortbow was a core weapon, noone would ever use renegade because Core would simply be better, which I honestly would be completely fine with.

Herald is the "odd one out" of the three, it's the one running different stances and traitlines.

Edited June 10, 2021 by lodjur.1284

Thornwolf.9721 · June 10, 2021

8 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

I guess strawmen are easier to burn down.

First off, Power Herald has never been in a horrible spot or unplayable spot for the environment in which it excels (roaming and 1v1 stuff)

Secondly, if Power Herald ever got nuked, the people playing it would in the vast majority of cases be swapping to something with similar play patterns. This would most likely be Power Warrior, Power Thief or possibly Holo, but what builds most resemble the play patterns of Power Herald might be a discussion for a different thread.

Condition Revenant doesn't have similar play patterns.

If something is "extremely oppressive" then yes.

Regarding Mesmer and Thief (and Ranger to a degree), they do lead to very unhealthy gameplay, that's really more of a mobility+evade spam issue than anything tho, Shiro/Staff kinda has the same issues

Herald doesn't punish high mobility builds...

Counters that are on the level of "press 2 buttons to be invulnerable 80%+ of the time and attempt a 1 shot every 20 sec" aren't healthy.

CC no longer doing damage was the best thing to happen to GW2

Herald was never really an issue in 1v1 (except that it kinda stymied diversity, but at least it wasn't ever really top tier 1v1)

It was an issue because of how hard it countered any kind of condi play in smallscale, the same groups we'd easily beat 5v7 (on a normal comp, with proper support etc) would have 1 player swap to Condi Herald and the entire nature of the fight was just entirely about the fact that every 20 seconds the entire group got nuked by 25 stacks of torment and 25 stacks of burning from 1 unavoidable skill. This is absolutely asinine design that meant every single encounter against somewhat "skilled" (if you can even call them that) players you would have 3 choices,

Lose due to True Nature - Demon+Resistance spam

Play the same comp as they do and True Nature - Demon

Make an entire comp just focused on 5v5 or whatever, that specifically was made to counter True Nature - Demon and just give up any plans on doing any real fights

Condi Herald carried players in fights they had no business winning, that they'd never have been able to win on essentially any other build in the game. Add to the fact that it's mediocre for actual outnumbered fights and you essentially force people to pick between being able to beat a few circlejerkers that without herald in the game wouldve achieved nothing at 5v5 and being able to win 5v18s.

That's not countering that's "extremely oppressive" on the meta

Condi Mirage is barely present and like any mirage build, would never die to a condi herald. It might not be able to kill it either, but between blink and staff you can just reset on the herald endlessly.

Condi Herald if anything just punished the more uncommon condi builds that you still barely see in WvW like Condi Ele, Condi Ranger, Condi Engi etc etc that are already in pretty sketchy spots

Mate if all it takes to be good on a build is "Spam pain absorption then True Nature - Demon and close to 1 shot 5 people" and the counterplay for the enemy is "noone run any condi" it's extremely oppressive to build diversity and degenerate.

In fact the little I've solo roamed has felt like it had increased build diversity, due to Condi Herald no longer suppressing every other Condi Build outside of Thief/Mesmer.

Also I just think that roaming takes less skill than outnumbered fights as a group, has less diversity and in general shows less, doesn't mean I didn't beat you without any effort 1v1 does it?

They haven't had anything like 2020 Condi Herald before or after.

Unlikely, thankfully, the leaks read like they're written by someone who has barely played the game.

I don't care what/if you swap to, but Power Herald is more than viable at the moment, same as it's always been, as is power core

Power Renegade is the one that actually got nerfed out of the power rev specs (I guess core a little bit too with the Retri nerf after the big patch, but it's really pretty minor and the Vigor > Reso was kind of a buff for core already)

You finally touch on it, you like the playstyle of Power Herald, hence why it would be very strange to be swapping to Condi Herald IF they nuked Power Herald, because they have less in common than Power Herald and say Thief or Power Herald and Power Warrior.

But it is still one of the strongest duelists in the game

Also condi herald still has some of the best Anti Condi tools in the game even without the 80%+ uptime invuln

6 clears on swap

3 clears on demand from f2 in Demon on only 20 sec cd

The incredibly broken busted degenerate dragon heal that I don't get how it's still in the game in the current form

Staff and/or Shield (because there's no other options)

Renegade and Core share the same issues and balance concerns. Herald doesn't.

Core and Renegade uses the exact same stances. Herald doesn't.

Renegade is essentially just a weapon and some damage modifiers and a downgrade to the F skills (Ancient Echo > Heroic Command+Citadel Bombardment+Orders from Above)

They both run Mallyx+Jalis as condi and Jalis+Shiro (RIP Kalla) as power

The only differences between Renegade and Core balancewise is shortbow.

Swapping Retribution > Renegade as Core Condi is just swapping a strong defensive line for a strong offensive line.

As I said before if Shortbow was a core weapon, noone would ever use renegade because Core would simply be better, which I honestly would be completely fine with.

Herald is the "odd one out" of the three, it's the one running different stances and traitlines.

yes you beat me on a renegade, which is superior to herald. I hit you with a full burst rotation and it did absolutely nothing; Barely scratched you in any form and you pew-pew'd me while camping shortbow. If condition herald is degenerative then renegade is too; Camping one weapon and getting those kind of results? Like why even have another spec, or portion of the class as I Said before just remove rev and repurpose it to be the renegade. Herald Is NOT in a good place and feels like crap compared to what it felt like prior (Power) and while condi herald is dead in the water, it shouldn't be. No build should be treated like it shouldn't exist and should be toned down; Rather than gutted into oblivion. Mallyx had that playstyle since the beginning and now its basically a meme.

The fact that power herald feels slower, plays more on the back foot and is not as good at aggression now makes me sad. Granted you can make it work but you're going to get better results on core warrior/SB or if you can stomach it thief. But I shouldn't need to swap out from a class I love; I shouldn't have to sit there and just go through the motions which is how I feel when Im not on my revenant. The fact that smokescale soul-beast is essentially power herald + and has better cleanses in its kit as well hits harder, has better ranged preassure and better power weapons than power herald is absurd. Power soul-beast has the same punching power, same gameplay loop almost (Some differences but on the greatsword + Smoke assault + Worldy impact is the same as Phase transversal + Unrelenting Assault + Battle Scars+ sword 4) But the soul beast hits harder.

Messmer is degenerative always has been based on how it was designed, as is thief and ranger hell even guardian and warrior can be extremely oppressive and if allowed to shine they counter whole classes. So its irrelevant if condi-herald did as well. They MADE condi-herald like that and yes they did nuke power revenant into the ground, it was right around war eternal. Paired with the feburary "balance" patch they essentially pooped on it. They've continued to do this over the patches where power herald was getting hit with a nerf bat, a small thing here, small thing there and here we are. Condi-herald WAS herald because they pushed it to that point and power heralds began to become rare. Now if you see one its honestly, more than likely a free kill. Unless its in EXCEPTIONAL hands which I will openly say in current guild wars 2 I am not. The balance feels horrible, WvW and PvP have felt horrible and it just keeps freak'n going.

So Yea gloating that you killed me to prove a point? There is no point. Outside of the fact renegade is NOT the same as core, or herald and yes it might run the same stances as core (Ironically not the same combo as I am on core but eh) but that doesn't mean that it is core. The multipliers in Kalla's line are strong, it has strong mid-range to long range skirmishing potential, and its a very capable duelist that easily can dominate while ignoring almost every mechanic by camping shortbow. Most renegades DO NOT swap weapons, they might go staff if someone gets close enough to either get away or kite (Typical of most rev's honestly.) But 90% its just camping pew-pew which is the exact thing rangers are complained about? So all your point proves is Ren> Herald, simply because renegade isn't as pigeon-holed as herald. (Power you kind of need invocation, renegade you dont. Ren you can run Retribution, devastation, renegade or Renegade, retribution corruption or even mix invocation in by sacrificing shiro/mallyx's line because you don't need it.) Im happy renegade is good, I am. But the rest of the class needs to be just as good; Herald isn't really wanted in PvE and it shined in competitive. Now Kalla shines as a legend in SPvP and its traitline is superior both due to its weapon and its benefits in WvW for small-scale + Roaming. Alacrity makes it desirable all on its own, herald is not really wanted outside of zergs with hammer (The meme lives on.) But in small scale a renegade or even core rev is more useful, due to core being able to push harder with more tools than herald AND basically taking the build rens run but to a further extent.

Herald has no identity, its support is laughable in comparison to kalla. So it either needs to be reworked into a full support legend to work with ventari or repurposed/spruced up to be more attractive. Because when the new spec comes out and IF its any good and doesn't come out and end up being kitten (High likelyhood it will.) Then everyone will drop herald. Power heralds will move likely to the new power spec; Which would be a shame. Druids face the same issue, soulbeast is just better and its role is filled better by guardians/scourges. Chrono for a LONG time had to deal with mirage just being more attractive, berserker had to deal with spellbreaker laughing in their faces. Out of those Chrono is one of the ones who got changed and is now at least in a good spot and can compete; But in WvW Spellbreaker>Berserker anyday. Soulbeast>Druid anyday and now Renegade>Herald any day.

ArthurDent.9538 · June 10, 2021

I would be very embarrassed if I died 1v1 to a power herald on renegade in wvw. Can't remember if that's even happened once since I started roaming on ren.

Thornwolf.9721 · June 10, 2021

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I would be very embarrassed if I died 1v1 to a power herald on renegade in wvw. Can't remember if that's even happened once since I started roaming on ren.

Because it typically doesn't, herald has to try waaaaay harder to do what ren can do. Renegade is easier to play (not trying to be offensive) and is stronger in terms of damage and self sufficiency. It also doesn't have to be in melee range at all; It literally just camps shortbow and bursts down everything. Not very intuitive or skill demanding in terms of gameplay, it doesn't need to be fast and it doesn't need to be concerned with anything Herald has (Condi-herald might of been a tad different. Which is likely why Ren's are screeeeing with happiness now that its been murdered.) Power herald will never beat a moderately competent ren player. Not unless the skill disparity is so large that the ren doesn't even know simple rotations.

Even core revenant has issues dealing with renegade; Renegade honestly is just better in all forms of content then either of the other sub-species of revenant and is desired EVERYWHERE. It shines in all forms of content, its good in all forms of content, and is strong in all forms of content. The fallacy that specs cant be good everywhere is just that, a fallacy as renegade/firebrand/scourge all spit in the face of that statement. Its not that they cant be its just that A-net chooses to make it so some are, some aren't... and renegade is their favored variant of rev... the rest can burn. THIS is and has been proven by their actions; They could remove herald tomorrow and it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

This specific poster just keeps asserting that there is nothing wrong with rev, because condi/power renegade works. Ergo there is no reason to complain just play renegade. Or swap to another class. Which is precisely why people are upset; Many don't like renegade and nothing will change that. And many refuse to swap classes because A-net is inept and have ruined, soiled and continued to poop on the spec/portions of the class they enjoy. I even get messaged by people telling me in game to swap to ren when Im playing core or herald; So its clear that those aren't desired. The joys of being a solo-roamer or solo player is Im self reliant and I'll eventually find a way, and block any who dare to question why im playing what Im playing (Of course only if they are doing so to belittle. If they are curious I will share what Im running so they too can enjoy it, if it interests them.)

What all the renegade fanatics don't understand is that when renegade was GARBAGE (Its release) in competitive all of the rev community defended them and asked to buff them. Asked for them to be brought up so heralds, core, ren could all be utilized together in one ecosystem. I was one of them. Because I had two friends who wanted to make renegade work in WvW and eventually we found a way, the buffs and boons I praised A-net for. Because now we had me the herald of our guild (Im the only one who likes core rev or herald, the rest loathe them.) running with people I like on my class playing it in a completely different way, it was cathartic and fun. NOW? Even they tell me "Drop herald/core and just go renegade, I don't know why you're wasting your time beating your head against the wall when its easy. Either embrace it or change classes" Because Im frustrated and refuse to run more often until I find out how to get the same results I used to get.

All A-net is doing is pushing people who enjoy other aspects of their classes when they do this to quit the game. More people will leave than will swap their main to another class, I've done it twice and I refuse to do it again. I don't do flavor of the month; I don't band-wagon. I play what I like. If what I like is unplayable or made to be an unfun mess I just F off. Did it in core, did it in PoF and Icebrood saga. Not afraid to do it again.

lodjur.1284 · June 10, 2021

43 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

yes you beat me on a renegade, which is superior to herald. I hit you with a full burst rotation and it did absolutely nothing; Barely scratched you in any form and you pew-pew'd me while camping shortbow. If condition herald is degenerative then renegade is too; Camping one weapon and getting those kind of results? Like why even have another spec, or portion of the class as I Said before just remove rev and repurpose it to be the renegade. Herald Is NOT in a good place and feels like crap compared to what it felt like prior (Power) and while condi herald is dead in the water, it shouldn't be. No build should be treated like it shouldn't exist and should be toned down; Rather than gutted into oblivion. Mallyx had that playstyle since the beginning and now its basically a meme.

Nah mate, I have played against many power heralds that actually did something, like actual damage, can't say I have lost to any but you know...

Mallyx is in an extremely good spot though

Besides Condi Herald is viable it got the exact same changes that Core and Renegade did, no more, no less

It's just that everyone without exception picked up Herald for one of the most broken healing skills in the game and the transfer, now the transfer carries a tiny bit of risk and people say the build is dead.

Not every traitline is designed for everything, nothing in the herald line says "condi", the only "condi" it has is 3 burning stacks for flavor on 1 skill, that's all the entire traitline adds to condi.

Condi Spellbreaker isn't a thing for example, there's no reason to force that

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The fact that power herald feels slower, plays more on the back foot and is not as good at aggression now makes me sad. Granted you can make it work but you're going to get better results on core warrior/SB or if you can stomach it thief. But I shouldn't need to swap out from a class I love; I shouldn't have to sit there and just go through the motions which is how I feel when Im not on my revenant. The fact that smokescale soul-beast is essentially power herald + and has better cleanses in its kit as well hits harder, has better ranged preassure and better power weapons than power herald is absurd. Power soul-beast has the same punching power, same gameplay loop almost (Some differences but on the greatsword + Smoke assault + Worldy impact is the same as Phase transversal + Unrelenting Assault + Battle Scars+ sword 4) But the soul beast hits harder.

Never said these were balanced, just said that they more closely resemble the playstyle of Power Herald than Condi Herald does and most likely most of the people you claim "used to play Power Herald" would've swapped to those if they felt it was that weak.

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Messmer is degenerative always has been based on how it was designed, as is thief and ranger hell even guardian and warrior can be extremely oppressive and if allowed to shine they counter whole classes. So its irrelevant if condi-herald did as well. They MADE condi-herald like that and yes they did nuke power revenant into the ground, it was right around war eternal. Paired with the feburary "balance" patch they essentially pooped on it. They've continued to do this over the patches where power herald was getting hit with a nerf bat, a small thing here, small thing there and here we are. Condi-herald WAS herald because they pushed it to that point and power heralds began to become rare. Now if you see one its honestly, more than likely a free kill. Unless its in EXCEPTIONAL hands which I will openly say in current guild wars 2 I am not. The balance feels horrible, WvW and PvP have felt horrible and it just keeps freak'n going.

The difference here is

Condi Herald didn't counter 1 build, it countered an entire damage type and shaped the smallscale meta entirely around itself.

I don't care if when I am alone on X then I am severely disadvantaged against Y.

But Transfer Herald countered entire damage types and was extremely oppressive to the build diversity of groups

Also power herald really is viable, the playstyle is just the same as before, it's frankly a playstyle I hate and it's possible it's worse than other classes with the same playstyle (spellbreaker, ranger, thief, mesmer etc) but it's def viable.

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So Yea gloating that you killed me to prove a point? There is no point. Outside of the fact renegade is NOT the same as core, or herald and yes it might run the same stances as core (Ironically not the same combo as I am on core but eh) but that doesn't mean that it is core. The multipliers in Kalla's line are strong, it has strong mid-range to long range skirmishing potential, and its a very capable duelist that easily can dominate while ignoring almost every mechanic by camping shortbow. Most renegades DO NOT swap weapons, they might go staff if someone gets close enough to either get away or kite (Typical of most rev's honestly.) But 90% its just camping pew-pew which is the exact thing rangers are complained about? So all your point proves is Ren> Herald, simply because renegade isn't as pigeon-holed as herald. (Power you kind of need invocation, renegade you dont. Ren you can run Retribution, devastation, renegade or Renegade, retribution corruption or even mix invocation in by sacrificing shiro/mallyx's line because you don't need it.) Im happy renegade is good, I am. But the rest of the class needs to be just as good; Herald isn't really wanted in PvE and it shined in competitive. Now Kalla shines as a legend in SPvP and its traitline is superior both due to its weapon and its benefits in WvW for small-scale + Roaming. Alacrity makes it desirable all on its own, herald is not really wanted outside of zergs with hammer (The meme lives on.) But in small scale a renegade or even core rev is more useful, due to core being able to push harder with more tools than herald AND basically taking the build rens run but to a further extent.

Why would you ever be running devastation over invocation with the current balance?

Alacrity is garbage in WvW btw, noone cares about it there, the best use of Orders from Above is literally to dump energy if you're between 20 and 29 energy and wanna swap legends

Kalla doesn't shine anywhere after they deleted it's elite skill from the game.

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Herald has no identity, its support is laughable in comparison to kalla. So it either needs to be reworked into a full support legend to work with ventari or repurposed/spruced up to be more attractive. Because when the new spec comes out and IF its any good and doesn't come out and end up being kitten (High likelyhood it will.) Then everyone will drop herald. Power heralds will move likely to the new power spec; Which would be a shame. Druids face the same issue, soulbeast is just better and its role is filled better by guardians/scourges. Chrono for a LONG time had to deal with mirage just being more attractive, berserker had to deal with spellbreaker laughing in their faces. Out of those Chrono is one of the ones who got changed and is now at least in a good spot and can compete; But in WvW Spellbreaker>Berserker anyday. Soulbeast>Druid anyday and now Renegade>Herald any day.

Exactly

Tho really Herald has better support potential than Renegade, Jalis F2 is really good in a group and alacrity is rather useless.

Revenant overall is just kind of awkward as a support, not only due to ventari being well, ventari but also due to the way the stance swaps work. Add to this staff being kind of a meh support weapon and the best off-hand setup is x/Shield which is also unexciting.

All that would really be needed for support herald to be a thing is a good legend to complement Jalis (I guess a ventari redesign, maybe making it work like scourge shades would probably do the trick?) and redesigned weapons, then it could be competing with firebrand.

Ofc it would still be garbage for PvE, the dragon elite would need to pulse Quickness+Alacrity instead of protection or something and even that would probably not be enough to make it good there.

I am all for a redesign of herald, I've said so from the start.

Many of the HoT specs are still either very good

Tempest (support mostly)

Reaper
Scrapper

just to name 3 that are overall stronger than their PoF counterpart

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Because it typically doesn't, herald has to try waaaaay harder to do what ren can do. Renegade is easier to play (not trying to be offensive) and is stronger in terms of damage and self sufficiency. It also doesn't have to be in melee range at all; It literally just camps shortbow and bursts down everything. Not very intuitive or skill demanding in terms of gameplay, it doesn't need to be fast and it doesn't need to be concerned with anything Herald has (Condi-herald might of been a tad different. Which is likely why Ren's are screeeeing with happiness now that its been murdered.) Power herald will never beat a moderately competent ren player. Not unless the skill disparity is so large that the ren doesn't even know simple rotations.

Condi Ren and Core is harder than Condi Herald, they don't have the "lol fullheal and 3 sec invuln button" or the "1 shot everyone around me button", that's just a fact, they require energy management, renegade is only currently harder than core because you play with 2 weapons instead of Mace+Axe only with staff to save you if you fail (because there's nothing else)

I don't have much of an opinion on Power Core vs Herald vs Renegade

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Even core revenant has issues dealing with renegade; Renegade honestly is just better in all forms of content then either of the other sub-species of revenant and is desired EVERYWHERE. It shines in all forms of content, its good in all forms of content, and is strong in all forms of content. The fallacy that specs cant be good everywhere is just that, a fallacy as renegade/firebrand/scourge all spit in the face of that statement. Its not that they cant be its just that A-net chooses to make it so some are, some aren't... and renegade is their favored variant of rev... the rest can burn. THIS is and has been proven by their actions; They could remove herald tomorrow and it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

I'd reckon Core vs Renegade would be a fairly balanced matchup (both condi that is)

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This specific poster just keeps asserting that there is nothing wrong with rev, because condi/power renegade works. Ergo there is no reason to complain just play renegade. Or swap to another class. Which is precisely why people are upset; Many don't like renegade and nothing will change that. And many refuse to swap classes because A-net is inept and have ruined, soiled and continued to poop on the spec/portions of the class they enjoy. I even get messaged by people telling me in game to swap to ren when Im playing core or herald; So its clear that those aren't desired. The joys of being a solo-roamer or solo player is Im self reliant and I'll eventually find a way, and block any who dare to question why im playing what Im playing (Of course only if they are doing so to belittle. If they are curious I will share what Im running so they too can enjoy it, if it interests them.)

Because Condi/Power Renegade/Core works*

The devastation nerf felt a bit silly tho both for core rev and power herald, 5% damage nerf while not a whole lot was def not needed and power core/ren didn't need to see retribution lose 5% dmg reduction tbh

Condi Heralds are only upset that they lost high invuln uptime.

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What all the renegade fanatics don't understand is that when renegade was GARBAGE (Its release) in competitive all of the rev community defended them and asked to buff them. Asked for them to be brought up so heralds, core, ren could all be utilized together in one ecosystem. I was one of them. Because I had two friends who wanted to make renegade work in WvW and eventually we found a way, the buffs and boons I praised A-net for. Because now we had me the herald of our guild (Im the only one who likes core rev or herald, the rest loathe them.) running with people I like on my class playing it in a completely different way, it was cathartic and fun. NOW? Even they tell me "Drop herald/core and just go renegade, I don't know why you're wasting your time beating your head against the wall when its easy. Either embrace it or change classes" Because Im frustrated and refuse to run more often until I find out how to get the same results I used to get.

LOL "the rev community" I mean idek what to say this is just hilarious, besides I never whined that renegade was weak I don't really care if herald is good or not, as long as it isn't a degenerate transfer focused build.

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All A-net is doing is pushing people who enjoy other aspects of their classes when they do this to quit the game. More people will leave than will swap their main to another class, I've done it twice and I refuse to do it again. I don't do flavor of the month; I don't band-wagon. I play what I like. If what I like is unplayable or made to be an unfun mess I just F off. Did it in core, did it in PoF and Icebrood saga. Not afraid to do it again.

If the only thing you enjoy is condi herald, chances are what you enjoy is just playing something that was truly busted.

As for Power Herald it is viable, it's not the strongest build in the game, but not everything can be, I believe if anything the truly massive amounts of evades/blocks it has makes Anet afraid to buff it in other areas as high mobility+high evade uptime+burst is traditionally very problematic in this game (and power herald has historically often been one of the worst offenders)

Also for real, please stop with trying to say I don't mind if Core Rev gets nerfed because I really do, it just hasn't happened. (outside of the 5% dmg reduction they nerfed later, but that was a dumb change imo so my point still stands)

Edited June 10, 2021 by lodjur.1284

Thornwolf.9721 · June 10, 2021

19 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Nah mate, I have played against many power heralds that actually did something, like actual damage, can't say I have lost to any but you know...

Mallyx is in an extremely good spot though

Besides Condi Herald is viable it got the exact same changes that Core and Renegade did, no more, no less

It's just that everyone without exception picked up Herald for one of the most broken healing skills in the game and the transfer, now the transfer carries a tiny bit of risk and people say the build is dead.

Not every traitline is designed for everything, nothing in the herald line says "condi", the only "condi" it has is 3 burning stacks for flavor on 1 skill, that's all the entire traitline adds to condi.

Condi Spellbreaker isn't a thing for example, there's no reason to force that

Never said these were balanced, just said that they more closely resemble the playstyle of Power Herald than Condi Herald does and most likely most of the people you claim "used to play Power Herald" would've swapped to those if they felt it was that weak.

The difference here is

Condi Herald didn't counter 1 build, it countered an entire damage type and shaped the smallscale meta entirely around itself.

I don't care if when I am alone on X then I am severely disadvantaged against Y.

But Transfer Herald countered entire damage types and was extremely oppressive to the build diversity of groups

Also power herald really is viable, the playstyle is just the same as before, it's frankly a playstyle I hate and it's possible it's worse than other classes with the same playstyle (spellbreaker, ranger, thief, mesmer etc) but it's def viable.

Why would you ever be running devastation over invocation with the current balance?

Alacrity is garbage in WvW btw, noone cares about it there, the best use of Orders from Above is literally to dump energy if you're between 20 and 29 energy and wanna swap legends

Exactly

Tho really Herald has better support potential than Renegade, Jalis F2 is really good in a group and alacrity is rather useless.

Revenant overall is just kind of awkward as a support, not only due to ventari being well, ventari but also due to the way the stance swaps work. Add to this staff being kind of a meh support weapon and the best off-hand setup is x/Shield which is also unexciting.

All that would really be needed for support herald to be a thing is a good legend to complement Jalis (I guess a ventari redesign, maybe making it work like scourge shades would probably do the trick?) and redesigned weapons, then it could be competing with firebrand.

Ofc it would still be garbage for PvE, the dragon elite would need to pulse Quickness+Alacrity instead of protection or something and even that would probably not be enough to make it good there.

I am all for a redesign of herald, I've said so from the start.

Many of the HoT specs are still either very good

Tempest (support mostly)

Reaper
Scrapper

just to name 3 that are overall stronger than their PoF counterpart

Condi Ren and Core is harder than Condi Herald, they don't have the "lol fullheal and 3 sec invuln button" or the "1 shot everyone around me button", that's just a fact, they require energy management, renegade is only currently harder than core because you play with 2 weapons instead of Mace+Axe only with staff to save you if you fail (because there's nothing else)

I don't have much of an opinion on Power Core vs Herald vs Renegade

I'd reckon Core vs Renegade would be a fairly balanced matchup (both condi that is)

Because Condi/Power Renegade/Core works*

The devastation nerf felt a bit silly tho both for core rev and power herald, 5% damage nerf while not a whole lot was def not needed and power core/ren didn't need to see retribution lose 5% dmg reduction tbh

Condi Heralds are only upset that they lost high invuln uptime.

LOL "the rev community" I mean idek what to say this is just hilarious, besides I never whined that renegade was weak I don't really care if herald is good or not, as long as it isn't a degenerate transfer focused build.

If the only thing you enjoy is condi herald, chances are what you enjoy is just playing something that was truly busted.

As for Power Herald it is viable, it's not the strongest build in the game, but not everything can be, I believe if anything the truly massive amounts of evades/blocks it has makes Anet afraid to buff it in other areas as high mobility+high evade uptime+burst is traditionally very problematic in this game (and power herald has historically often been one of the worst offenders)

Also for real, please stop with trying to say I don't mind if Core Rev gets nerfed because I really do, it just hasn't happened. (outside of the 5% dmg reduction they nerfed later, but that was a dumb change imo so my point still stands)

You care if condi core, or condi ren get nerfed. You yourself admitted you dont play or care, like or dislike power but its not within your scope or concern. Im sure if they nuked the power side of revenant from orbit; Which they likely might because it seems more and more they are trying to entice people to go condition damage on it you'd be just fine. Im beginning to doubt the next legend wont be a condition damage build; Just seems unlikely to me. I remember when Condi rev was a meme and couldn't function because it was outclassed by virtually everything, ironic in the grand-scheme of things. I agree condi-herald and have agreed since the beginning it was OVER-tuned but it did NOT deserve the kind of nuking it received. Gradual tune backs until it felt about right would of been fine. They shouldn't of stripped it of the gameplay style that THEY THEMSELVES intended, they said thats EXACTLY the playstyle they wanted it to have. And we will see it again on a new E-spec, these changes for all the classes are being made not for balance but to make room for new elites. So ANYTHING thats stripped, nerfed into the ground or made unbearable to play is being done 100% solely for that. So condi-heralds playstyle will likely come back even stronger, and more degenerative except this time it likely wont be on rev and will be on something like guardian or necromancer. Hell they might even give it to thief or engineer.

Calling it now, we will get another support legend. That has condi-pressure as I just don't trust they wont do it, I know glint isn't a condi legend and thats clear as a power herald main it synergizes way better than it does with condi in that field. Im not discrediting you and I not nessacarily disagreeing with a good chunk of what you say; Im expressing how it feels as a power rev lover. I feel like there is no room for me on my class anymore, power is not the intended method in which you play the class and its intended to either be hybrid or condi. (Hybrid leaning more toward condi)

As for your question, I don't run invocation on my core rev because Devastation, corruption and retribution are working exceedingly well together. Mallyx's diabolic inferno works well as it procs on weapon swap, you run jalis for protection when cc'd and you run versed in stone for when you get brought low with the bubble for denial of ranged attacks. You run devastation because now it buffs all damage by %'s rather than just power. You run Celestial/vipers to where you're comfortable and you use sword/sword on mallyx for mobility because anytime you use energy you proc embrace the darkness to surge and it has a pull while swords offer high power burst. Then you swap to shiro with impossible odds and use mace/axe so you're constantly applying both damage types. Often you melt people. They don't know what you're running, you're highly resistant to CC and you are forcing them to use their defensives and cleanses at the same time. You have great mobility and with "ancient Echo" you can often keep up the momentum. You also use sigil of hydromancy/cleansing on one weapon-set of your choice, with geomancy/cleansing or energy so that when you swap legends you proc one sigil, then swap weapons to proc the others. The chill of hydromancy procs abyssal chill and generosity procs when you swap to shiro and gives some bleed coverage. Its phenomenal at dueling; A great roamer and good in small scale albeit being selfish.

Granted in writing that im sure people will pick it up, abuse it and get it nuked from orbit because Im 100% its not intended to be as strong as it is as A-net never tests anything when they roll out changes. But at this point whatever, just do it lol. Its based off Vallun's celestial herald but I didn't care for the celestial heralds playstyle and decided to tweak it a bit and go a different direction. I have boon-rip, unblockable, condi cleanse, damage mitigations, ranged denial, power burst, condi burst... I have it all and it works so far as I've tested in any game-mode (PvE its strong but honestly renegade would outperform it, but I couldn't care less about PvE)

Also you run rune of the berserker, as its a hybrid rune to bump your damage. Forgot to put that there.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Thornwolf.9721

lodjur.1284 · June 10, 2021

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

You care if condi core, or condi ren get nerfed. You yourself admitted you dont play or care, like or dislike power but its not within your scope or concern. Im sure if they nuked the power side of revenant from orbit; Which they likely might because it seems more and more they are trying to entice people to go condition damage on it you'd be just fine. Im beginning to doubt the next legend wont be a condition damage build; Just seems unlikely to me. I remember when Condi rev was a meme and couldn't function because it was outclassed by virtually everything, ironic in the grand-scheme of things. I agree condi-herald and have agreed since the beginning it was OVER-tuned but it did NOT deserve the kind of nuking it received. Gradual tune backs until it felt about right would of been fine. They shouldn't of stripped it of the gameplay style that THEY THEMSELVES intended, they said thats EXACTLY the playstyle they wanted it to have. And we will see it again on a new E-spec, these changes for all the classes are being made not for balance but to make room for new elites. So ANYTHING thats stripped, nerfed into the ground or made unbearable to play is being done 100% solely for that. So condi-heralds playstyle will likely come back even stronger, and more degenerative except this time it likely wont be on rev and will be on something like guardian or necromancer. Hell they might even give it to thief or engineer.

Tell me exactly what kind of nuking herald got, and how it wasn't deserved and explain why it hit herald harder than core/ren

Also I don't think power herald should get nuked, but it doesn't directly affect me either and the build isn't even relevant beyond as an enemy in the scale I actually enjoy. I would prefer Herald got it's own identity as a proper support instead of whatever it is now and Core Power rev got some love. Preferably through buffs to Deva/Retri

I doubt they'll bring back anything that can have similar condi invuln uptime as resistance enabled, unique buffs are by their nature much harder to have high uptimes on. Look at the power immunity ones, I could however see condi damage immunity added to defy pain/signet of stone/whatever

I honestly don't care if Renegade gets nuked btw, as long as there is a viable Mallyx build, if Shortbow got nuked into the ground I'd go core and I'd be a little sad that I am forced to play an easier version (lack of weapon swap). I honestly can't see it happening atm though as Condi Renegade is in a quite healthy spot at the moment and lacks any kind of active defenses so it's hard for it to be problematic

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Calling it now, we will get another support legend. That has condi-pressure as I just don't trust they wont do it, I know glint isn't a condi legend and thats clear as a power herald main it synergizes way better than it does with condi in that field. Im not discrediting you and I not nessacarily disagreeing with a good chunk of what you say; Im expressing how it feels as a power rev lover. I feel like there is no room for me on my class anymore, power is not the intended method in which you play the class and its intended to either be hybrid or condi. (Hybrid leaning more toward condi)

That's really more of a problem with the weapons though, the fact that mace than sword is in a lot of ways a better power weapon is very strange

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

As for your question, I don't run invocation on my core rev because Devastation, corruption and retribution are working exceedingly well together. Mallyx's diabolic inferno works well as it procs on weapon swap, you run jalis for protection when cc'd and you run versed in stone for when you get brought low with the bubble for denial of ranged attacks. You run devastation because now it buffs all damage by %'s rather than just power. You run Celestial/vipers to where you're comfortable and you use sword/sword on mallyx for mobility because anytime you use energy you proc embrace the darkness to surge and it has a pull while swords offer high power burst. Then you swap to shiro with impossible odds and use mace/axe so you're constantly applying both damage types. Often you melt people. They don't know what you're running, you're highly resistant to CC and you are forcing them to use their defensives and cleanses at the same time. You have great mobility and with "ancient Echo" you can often keep up the momentum. You also use sigil of hydromancy/cleansing on one weapon-set of your choice, with generosity/cleansing or energy so that when you swap legends you proc one sigil, then swap weapons to proc the others. The chill of hydromancy procs abyssal chill and generosity procs when you swap to shiro and gives some bleed coverage. Its phenomenal at dueling; A great roamer and good in small scale albeit being selfish.

The thing is it's fine to run suboptimal builds. It's just a problem when you bring them up in certain contexts, I am all for running meme-y stuff, I rarely play anything other than suboptimal meme builds when I play solo, I just accept them for what they are.

But Invocation is simply a better traitline than both devastation and corruption (with WvW balance) it's not really much of a debate, I do think devastation could use buffs, mostly to battle scars as the mechanic is kinda cool (tho the PvE numbers would be overkill)

Corruption could use a little love in the damage department too tbf, but I am fine with it really

Just now, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Granted in writing that im sure people will pick it up, abuse it and get it nuked from orbit because Im 100% its not intended to be as strong as it is as A-net never tests anything when they roll out changes. But at this point whatever, just do it lol. Its based off Vallun's celestial herald but I didn't care for the celestial heralds playstyle and decided to tweak it a bit and go a different direction. I have boon-rip, unblockable, condi cleanse, damage mitigations, ranged denial, power burst, condi burst... I have it all and it works so far as I've tested in any game-mode (PvE its strong but honestly renegade would outperform it, but I couldn't care less about PvE)

I doubt it, I don't think it's strong enough.

Thornwolf.9721 · June 10, 2021

8 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Tell me exactly what kind of nuking herald got, and how it wasn't deserved and explain why it hit herald harder than core/ren

Also I don't think power herald should get nuked, but it doesn't directly affect me either and the build isn't even relevant beyond as an enemy in the scale I actually enjoy. I would prefer Herald got it's own identity as a proper support instead of whatever it is now and Core Power rev got some love. Preferably through buffs to Deva/Retri

I doubt they'll bring back anything that can have similar condi invuln uptime as resistance enabled, unique buffs are by their nature much harder to have high uptimes on. Look at the power immunity ones, I could however see condi damage immunity added to defy pain/signet of stone/whatever

I honestly don't care if Renegade gets nuked btw, as long as there is a viable Mallyx build, if Shortbow got nuked into the ground I'd go core and I'd be a little sad that I am forced to play an easier version (lack of weapon swap). I honestly can't see it happening atm though as Condi Renegade is in a quite healthy spot at the moment and lacks any kind of active defenses so it's hard for it to be problematic

That's really more of a problem with the weapons though, the fact that mace than sword is in a lot of ways a better power weapon is very strange

The thing is it's fine to run suboptimal builds. It's just a problem when you bring them up in certain contexts, I am all for running meme-y stuff, I rarely play anything other than suboptimal meme builds when I play solo, I just accept them for what they are.

But Invocation is simply a better traitline than both devastation and corruption (with WvW balance) it's not really much of a debate, I do think devastation could use buffs, mostly to battle scars as the mechanic is kinda cool (tho the PvE numbers would be overkill)

Corruption could use a little love in the damage department too tbf, but I am fine with it really

I doubt it, I don't think it's strong enough.

Spoiler

Revenant

Unrelenting Assault: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to trigger the confusion condition multiple times in a single cast.
Roiling Mists: Decreased bonus critical-hit chance from 100% to 50% in PvP.
Incensed Response: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP.
Sword: Lowered damage for the full sword attack chain sequence by about 10% in PvP.
Shared Empowerment: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP.

^ From war eternal
Spoiler
- Revenant
  
  Revenants are seeing a large number of changes in this update. In addition to reworks of both the Devastation and Corruption trait lines, we have also revisited several of their skills. Precision Strike has been reworked as an actual melee attack as we felt it didn't make sense for it to be a projectile skill. However, we have kept its emphasis on single-target damage if revenants can isolate foes. Confusion has been removed from various revenant skills as they didn't really have any meaningful ways to take advantage of it. Instead, we've replaced it with torment, which can be used in a more cohesive character build.
- Surge of the Mists: Added a 0.5-second warm-up before the dash occurs. The evasion granted by this skill is active during the warm-up.
- Temporal Rift: This skill no longer inflicts confusion. Increased the amount of torment applied in PvE from 2 stacks to 4 stacks.
- Rift Slash: Updated the animation to be more prominent. Skill timing is unchanged.
- Precision Strike: This skill has been reworked into a new skill called Chilling Isolation.
- Chilling Isolation: This new skill is a 240-radius circular melee strike that chills up to 5 foes for two strikes. If the second strike hits only 1 foe, it does bonus damage. Increased the cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW.
- Banish Enchantment: This skill no longer inflicts confusion. Instead, it inflicts chill for 1 second and removes 1 boon per hit. The number of hits has increased from 1 to 3. Increased PvE damage by 380%. Damage in other modes increased by 20%.
- Phase Traversal: This skill no longer increases damage for the next few attacks, and it now uses the new unblockable effect. Damage increased by 100% in PvE only. Energy cost raised from 30 to 35 in WvW to match the PvP version.
- Unwavering Avoidance: This trait now grants vigor instead of stability when evading an attack. The cooldown of this trait has been reduced from 8 seconds to 5 seconds.
- Determined Resolution: This trait now reduces incoming damage while revenants have vigor instead of stability. It no longer increases the duration of stability.
- Fierce Infusion: This trait has been retired and replaced by Glaring Resolve.
- Glaring Resolve: With this new trait, gain stability and heal when you break stuns.
- Empty Vessel: This trait has been retired and replaced by Contained Temper.
- Contained Temper: With this new trait, revenants gain fury when they disable a foe.
- Sudden Reversal: This trait has been retired and replaced by Bold Reversal.
- Bold Reversal: When revenants break stuns, they gain several offensive boons and full Kalla's Fervor.
- Changes to the Devastation trait line are aimed at two major areas. The first is addressing niche-use traits such as Malicious Reprisal and Jade Echo. These traits are being removed and replaced with new traits that have broader uses. The second issue is the opposite: some traits are so general that they are too similar in functionality. Ferocious Strikes and Vicious Lacerations both add damage in ways such that there is no real choice between them. The siphoning traits are a part of this change, and we're unifying the siphoning effect into a single effect for the combat log and making it a bigger part of the overall line. The new siphon effect, named after Shiro's iconic Battle Scars skill, is a stacking effect that is expended when attacking. It's more restricted in its applications, but it's stronger than previous siphoning traits.
- The Devastation trait line has been reworked. The new traits are as follows:
  - Minor:
    Expose Defenses: No changes.
    
    Destructive Impulses: With this new trait, outgoing damage is increased by 5% for each currently equipped weapon.
    
    Targeted Destruction: This trait has moved to the Grandmaster minor slot.
  - Adept:
    Aggressive Agility: With this new trait, movement skills remove immobilize.
    
    Unsuspecting Strikes: This new trait increases outgoing damage when attacking a foe above 80% health. The damage increase is 25% in PvE and 10% in competitive modes.
    
    Battle Scarred: With this new trait, gain 5 stacks of Battle Scars after using your heal.
  - Master:
    Assassin's Presence: Moved to the top slot of the Master tier.
    
    Notoriety: This trait no longer grants bonus might when using Legendary Assassin skills.
    
    Thrill of Combat: This new trait grants 1 stack of Battle Scars every second while in combat.
  - Grandmaster:
    Brutality: This trait switched positions with Swift Termination.
    
    Swift Termination: This trait switched positions with Brutality.
    
    Dance of Death: Each stack of vulnerability applied to a foe grants a stack of Battle Scars. The Battle Scars healing amount is doubled when revenants are below 50% health.
- Similar to the Devastation rework, we are also recentering the Corruption trait line around a new mechanic. Invoke Torment occurs when switching legends, and it inflicts nearby foes with torment. This skill can be upgraded with Grandmaster traits based on your preferred playstyle. The boon-removal traits have also been removed as we felt that they had trigger conditions that offered little gameplay. In exchange, we've added a few new powerful traits with drawbacks as we feel this is in line with the spirit of Mallyx and skills like Pain Absorption.
- Corruption: The Corruption line has been reworked. The new traits are as follows:
  - Minor:
    Invoking Torment: With this new trait, switching legends inflicts nearby foes with torment. This attack is called Invoke Torment and can be modified by other traits.
    
    Seething Malice: With this new trait, gain 120 additional condition damage.
    
    Yearning Empowerment: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the duration of all damaging conditions by 10%.
  - Adept:
    Acolyte of Torment: With this new trait, torment deals 10% more damage.
    
    Demonic Defiance: No changes.
    
    Replenishing Despair: This trait has been reworked. While upkeeping a skill, revenants gain 1 energy regeneration. Additionally, they self-inflict 1 stack of torment for 5 seconds every second.
  - Master:
    Abyssal Chill: This trait has moved to a new location in the same tier.
    
    Demonic Resistance: This trait has moved to a new location in the same tier. This trait no longer grants vitality based on condition damage. Increased damage resistance from 20% to 33% in PvE. PvP and WvW remain at a 20% reduction.
    
    Pact of Pain: With this new trait, conditions the revenant applies to foes last 15% longer. Conditions inflicted on the revenant last 10% longer.
  - Grandmaster:
    Diabolic Inferno: This trait has been reworked. Invoke Torment inflicts burning and poison.
    
    Fiendish Tenacity: This new trait causes Invoke Torment to grant resistance. Resistance heals the revenant every second it is active.
    
    Permeating Pestilence: This trait has been renamed. Invoke Torment transfers conditions to struck foes.
- - ^ From the February balance patch notes, now pair them with the recent changes and it just gets so much worse.

lodjur.1284 · June 10, 2021

2 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

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Revenant

Unrelenting Assault: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to trigger the confusion condition multiple times in a single cast.

Roiling Mists: Decreased bonus critical-hit chance from 100% to 50% in PvP.

Incensed Response: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP.

Sword: Lowered damage for the full sword attack chain sequence by about 10% in PvP.

Shared Empowerment: Reduced might duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP.

^ From war eternal

Bunch of sPvP changes and extremely minor nerf to UA

2 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

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Revenant

Revenants are seeing a large number of changes in this update. In addition to reworks of both the Devastation and Corruption trait lines, we have also revisited several of their skills. Precision Strike has been reworked as an actual melee attack as we felt it didn't make sense for it to be a projectile skill. However, we have kept its emphasis on single-target damage if revenants can isolate foes. Confusion has been removed from various revenant skills as they didn't really have any meaningful ways to take advantage of it. Instead, we've replaced it with torment, which can be used in a more cohesive character build.

Surge of the Mists: Added a 0.5-second warm-up before the dash occurs. The evasion granted by this skill is active during the warm-up.

Temporal Rift: This skill no longer inflicts confusion. Increased the amount of torment applied in PvE from 2 stacks to 4 stacks.

Rift Slash: Updated the animation to be more prominent. Skill timing is unchanged.

Precision Strike: This skill has been reworked into a new skill called Chilling Isolation.

Chilling Isolation: This new skill is a 240-radius circular melee strike that chills up to 5 foes for two strikes. If the second strike hits only 1 foe, it does bonus damage. Increased the cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Banish Enchantment: This skill no longer inflicts confusion. Instead, it inflicts chill for 1 second and removes 1 boon per hit. The number of hits has increased from 1 to 3. Increased PvE damage by 380%. Damage in other modes increased by 20%.

Phase Traversal: This skill no longer increases damage for the next few attacks, and it now uses the new unblockable effect. Damage increased by 100% in PvE only. Energy cost raised from 30 to 35 in WvW to match the PvP version.

Unwavering Avoidance: This trait now grants vigor instead of stability when evading an attack. The cooldown of this trait has been reduced from 8 seconds to 5 seconds.

Determined Resolution: This trait now reduces incoming damage while revenants have vigor instead of stability. It no longer increases the duration of stability.

Fierce Infusion: This trait has been retired and replaced by Glaring Resolve.

Glaring Resolve: With this new trait, gain stability and heal when you break stuns.

Empty Vessel: This trait has been retired and replaced by Contained Temper.

Contained Temper: With this new trait, revenants gain fury when they disable a foe.

Sudden Reversal: This trait has been retired and replaced by Bold Reversal.

Bold Reversal: When revenants break stuns, they gain several offensive boons and full Kalla's Fervor.

Changes to the Devastation trait line are aimed at two major areas. The first is addressing niche-use traits such as Malicious Reprisal and Jade Echo. These traits are being removed and replaced with new traits that have broader uses. The second issue is the opposite: some traits are so general that they are too similar in functionality. Ferocious Strikes and Vicious Lacerations both add damage in ways such that there is no real choice between them. The siphoning traits are a part of this change, and we're unifying the siphoning effect into a single effect for the combat log and making it a bigger part of the overall line. The new siphon effect, named after Shiro's iconic Battle Scars skill, is a stacking effect that is expended when attacking. It's more restricted in its applications, but it's stronger than previous siphoning traits.

The Devastation trait line has been reworked. The new traits are as follows:
Minor:
Expose Defenses: No changes.

Destructive Impulses: With this new trait, outgoing damage is increased by 5% for each currently equipped weapon.

Targeted Destruction: This trait has moved to the Grandmaster minor slot.

Adept:
Aggressive Agility: With this new trait, movement skills remove immobilize.

Unsuspecting Strikes: This new trait increases outgoing damage when attacking a foe above 80% health. The damage increase is 25% in PvE and 10% in competitive modes.

Battle Scarred: With this new trait, gain 5 stacks of Battle Scars after using your heal.

Master:
Assassin's Presence: Moved to the top slot of the Master tier.

Notoriety: This trait no longer grants bonus might when using Legendary Assassin skills.

Thrill of Combat: This new trait grants 1 stack of Battle Scars every second while in combat.

Grandmaster:
Brutality: This trait switched positions with Swift Termination.

Swift Termination: This trait switched positions with Brutality.

Dance of Death: Each stack of vulnerability applied to a foe grants a stack of Battle Scars. The Battle Scars healing amount is doubled when revenants are below 50% health.

Similar to the Devastation rework, we are also recentering the Corruption trait line around a new mechanic. Invoke Torment occurs when switching legends, and it inflicts nearby foes with torment. This skill can be upgraded with Grandmaster traits based on your preferred playstyle. The boon-removal traits have also been removed as we felt that they had trigger conditions that offered little gameplay. In exchange, we've added a few new powerful traits with drawbacks as we feel this is in line with the spirit of Mallyx and skills like Pain Absorption.

Corruption: The Corruption line has been reworked. The new traits are as follows:
Minor:
Invoking Torment: With this new trait, switching legends inflicts nearby foes with torment. This attack is called Invoke Torment and can be modified by other traits.

Seething Malice: With this new trait, gain 120 additional condition damage.

Yearning Empowerment: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the duration of all damaging conditions by 10%.

Adept:
Acolyte of Torment: With this new trait, torment deals 10% more damage.

Demonic Defiance: No changes.

Replenishing Despair: This trait has been reworked. While upkeeping a skill, revenants gain 1 energy regeneration. Additionally, they self-inflict 1 stack of torment for 5 seconds every second.

Master:
Abyssal Chill: This trait has moved to a new location in the same tier.

Demonic Resistance: This trait has moved to a new location in the same tier. This trait no longer grants vitality based on condition damage. Increased damage resistance from 20% to 33% in PvE. PvP and WvW remain at a 20% reduction.

Pact of Pain: With this new trait, conditions the revenant applies to foes last 15% longer. Conditions inflicted on the revenant last 10% longer.

Grandmaster:
Diabolic Inferno: This trait has been reworked. Invoke Torment inflicts burning and poison.

Fiendish Tenacity: This new trait causes Invoke Torment to grant resistance. Resistance heals the revenant every second it is active.

Permeating Pestilence: This trait has been renamed. Invoke Torment transfers conditions to struck foes.

^ From the February balance patch notes, now pair them with the recent changes and it just gets so much worse.

You mean the patch that very much buffed Condi Rev?

But ye changes that explicitly only nerfed condi herald and not Core/Herald is what I asked for, since you said that Condi Herald has suffered so much

Give Rev more ways to manage conditions

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