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Why nerf a spec that does not exist in PVE?


Euclid.2517

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    Signet of Fire: The number of applied burning stacks on activation has been reduced from 4 to 2, and the duration of applied burning has been increased from 6 seconds to 10 seconds in all game modes.

    A 16.667% nerf in terms of total damage; even more in real combat since it affects the burst. Most likely you don't have 20 seconds (with 100% burning duration) to fully roll out that damage.

 

Do you guys (Anet) only do balance based on Snowcrows benchmark? Do you even play your own game? It is really been a while since I see an elementalist dps spec in pugs. Even in speedclear groups going for record, NO ONE WOULD PLAY ELE as dps. 

 

Right now it is scourge wars 2/firebrand wars 2 in PVE. 

 

Firebrand has 40k+ benchmark too, even by afking for 3 second during rotation. Yes, it is not listed on snowcrows. But I will kindly show it to Anet. https://youtu.be/_FZKHq0YU9A

 

Radiance is broken. F1 can get reset very often, resulting in even higher damage in real combat. Plus all other tomes/aegis spams. High Self Quickness uptime. Can take elite mantras for group stab, for fast phase situation like fractal.

 

DPS Scourge is fully ranged. With barrier spam. Epidemic. Give decent group might. It is just so good and tempting to stack scourge atm.

 

Weaver is fully dps spec. No support. Most squishy. No range (except scepter variant). Requires PERFECT BOON. Yet still not outperforming in terms of damage, which is the only thing it does.

 

Anet, Please check out this video from MightyTeapot. He explains things really well.

https://youtu.be/5-BiK7uyKrA

 

----------

  Check the post from Roul [SC] himself too. He is super pro in guard as well, and balance team should at least read this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/nvs3qr/i_feel_the_need_to_talk_about_the_most_recent_ele/
 

----------------------------

Unrelated notes: Please buff condi holo too. It is falling behind when all other condi spec is strengthened. Well, I know everyone play scourge/fb/rev(condi renegade; people point out Anet may not realize I am talking about renegade and nerf core rev/herald instead😅) etc., but Anet, you said want to buff class that are used less often, didn't you? 🙂

 

Edited by Euclid.2517
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I meant, Ele should be nerfed because "Ele has been in a very good place". No amount of evidence you provide will change their mind. 

 

Half of me want to post builds that show case how Ele can be good in specific instances. But the other half recognize that by posting builds (like the latest Trailblazer build with Signet of Fire) is how you get ANet to nerf the spec. So people, please stop sharing builds.

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Part of me wonders if anet are in some sorta teaching class with blizzard.

 

We saw this same thing happen in WoW, Easier Classes were intentionally better options then harder ones to cater to the Majority of their playerbase, So just keep Ele Underneath.. While ensuring easier options Take the lead to get players rerolling to those and Feeling good about their numbers.

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5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Part of me wonders if anet are in some sorta teaching class with blizzard.

 

We saw this same thing happen in WoW, Easier Classes were intentionally better options then harder ones to cater to the Majority of their playerbase, So just keep Ele Underneath.. While ensuring easier options Take the lead to get players rerolling to those and Feeling good about their numbers.

It's a clear marketing strategy, quite common in different gaming industries in tune with the today market and gaming population 

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Yeah, thanks for the uncalled for nerf to signet of fire.  Good to see you guys addressing the issues that really matter, like the broken condi specs you buffed through the roof instead of ele.

 

Seriously, what do we have to do for you guys to realize that firebrand is insanely overtuned and now torment specs like scourge as well? 

 

Losing faith...

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19 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Part of me wonders if anet are in some sorta teaching class with blizzard.

 

We saw this same thing happen in WoW, Easier Classes were intentionally better options then harder ones to cater to the Majority of their playerbase, So just keep Ele Underneath.. While ensuring easier options Take the lead to get players rerolling to those and Feeling good about their numbers.

Nah. Can't be the reason, because they nerfed staff, which is basically meteor shower, fireball, fireball, fireball, several times in the past.

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6 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's a clear marketing strategy, quite common in different gaming industries in tune with the today market and gaming population 

 

dont think its so much with the todays gaming population. when u release hard mechanics.. ur launching content for the top 10%.. Such as in WoW with mythic raiding.. your launching for the top 10%. not everoyne will be capable of doing the hardest things.. they never were capable.

 

And if we go back to "when the People were better".. classes were 100x Simplier and every fight in the game to match,

 

the issue isnt todays Population. the issue is game complexity grew Too far for the Population and now we're at a point the vast majority cant play it. at the end of the day, Stress /Anxiety is something that can be a thing.. for example.. i Made elementalist as my first char.. I've never go into any premade content. or done any group content.. because im terrified of how bad i'll be.

 

With that im never getting better because im too scared to fail to begin with because of the classes complexity, thats not be Wanting a Easier option.. thats a a Anxiety assossiated with the games complexity.  alot like to think "players want everything for free. they want it to be easy".. because the people saying that find the other classes Easy.

 

however.. vast majority cant play any of the classes to a high level at all. they find ALL the classes Difficult. they find Elementalist impossible. however for me personally playing a other class is likely my best option.. because the self brought Stress and Anxiety surrounding playing the game is Simply too high for me to viably learn anything.

 

so atm im just a PvP ele... i think im Gold 2 (only like 2 months into the game so dont judge too harshly)

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sindariel.2354 said:

Nah. Can't be the reason, because they nerfed staff, which is basically meteor shower, fireball, fireball, fireball, several times in the past.

 

As far as im aware thats because it could do everything? i watched a stream talking about old staff Ele and apprantly its because the sheer quantity it could do.. however.

 

if im correct.. we'll see the New Elite be ALOT easier to play then weaver, prolly be Less boon dependent.. and on its Launch likely see Weaver nerfed More to ensure its the top option. but u are correct, if they wanted this they could just buff DPS Tempest... as far as i am aware tempest is a Mile easier to play then Weaver.

Edited by Daddy.8125
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This change was heavy handed because even if it was intended to reduce burning stacks, it didn't put the equivalent as a replacement (i.e. 12s instead of 10s).

In my opinion, CFB should have been hit first since it inherently is supportive just by having tomes.

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11 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yeah, thanks for the uncalled for nerf to signet of fire.  Good to see you guys addressing the issues that really matter, like the broken condi specs you buffed through the roof instead of ele.

 

Seriously, what do we have to do for you guys to realize that firebrand is insanely overtuned and now torment specs like scourge as well? 

 

Losing faith...

It is also funny if you now look back at the change to "persisting flame" made last year. It is meant to buff power ele, and then remove downed "lesser lava font" and fury through blasting.

 

Right now they nerf power ele again, and the damage was about same as before, yet ele lost the group fury through blasting and downed "lesser lava font".😂 

 

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Just now, Razor.6392 said:

"Quality of life" flatout nerfs ele.

 

I was using this in open world pve where things die fairly quickly, now it's kinda useless lol. What the hell is anet thinking? How can they be so kittening awful at this?

 

what u mean they're doingf a amazing job at telling u to play guardian

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4 minutes ago, Razor.6392 said:

It's mind blowing. WHO asked for this? In what universe was this skill a problem? Or maybe they somehow think this was a buff?

 

only thing i can think of is they're weighing odds to put easier classes above harder ones. to encourage new players to roll those classes thus naturally being better in raids and more and feel confident with what they're doing and Partake in more content.

 

Elementalist is too difficult for the vast majority of the players, we're talking a very small amount of players being competitive in Raid enviroments with this class, alot of feedback made as been talking about ways to make the game Easier so more get involved.

 

but it doesnt really explain why this nerf had to happen.. guardian and things were stronger to begin with?.. so imma likely say

 

they intend to kill Weaver by the time EoD Comes out, so they can release a Far easier elite Specc for the Elementalist.to then become the be all option for content which will Drop the Skill cap of Elementalist, like Holo did for Engineer.

 

we've seen alot of these "scarey" Classes have this happen.. Core engi was considered one of the hardest classes to play, holosmith is regarded as one of the easier choices now as a example.. i think ele will be seeing this next expansion.

Edited by Daddy.8125
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Weaver ;

Full build, traits and skills, dedicated only to increase personnal damage and nothing else, still not chosen in raids, still no support to allies, no boon, no buff, no heal, close to no cc, no vulnerability; still no self-sustain, no tankiness, still no mid-range option, but hey, benchmark on big cat golem too high, better nerf signet of fire.

 

Who still think they don't balance class because of SC benchmark ?

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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17 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Weaver ;

Full build, traits and skills, dedicated only to increase personnal damage and nothing else, still not chosen in raids, still no support to allies, no boon, no buff, no heal, close to no cc, no vulnerability; still no self-sustain, no tankiness, still no mid-range option, but hey, benchmark on big cat golem too high, better nerf signet of fire.

 

Who still think they don't balance class because of SC benchmark ?

 

I dont by a long shot. why would they go to SC For Data they already have?.. what SC says they have internal Systems already saying.

 

GW2 isnt the only game that does this.. Check out World of Warcrafts Feral druid as a great example. MMORPG Devs Cater to the Masses. so if the Masses are incapable of playing a Certain Class/Proffession. they wont put emphasis on that class thats effectively how this works.

 

if 90% of players Suck at Elementalist. Why Would u encourage them to Play Elementalist. your giving them a bad experience of your game and increasing the Risk they'll just leave the game..

 

staff Mirage got nerfed while only having a 29k DPS Parse on SC.

DH Didnt get nerfed while having a 41k DPS Parse on SC.

 

I think elementalist is Nerfed to retain easier speccs above it so new players come in with easier classes and by natural means are able to participate in content Easier.

 

all the changes are in preparation of EoD Effectively.. and as i said in my prior post, i think they'll make Eles 3rd Option alot easier to play and make the class more approachable and easier to grasp, they'll then leave weaver behind it so players turn to it.

 

I think ur looking at a Ranged DPS/Utility hybrid Specc which is Easier with a Smaller rotation and less attunement swapping.

 

Same with Condi Deadeye.. its completely unplayable, a Large reason i beleive this is because how many of the average Players got themselves Killed porting into things they shouldnt of.

Edited by Daddy.8125
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Was about to do more achievements and play again this week... Then I see this. Well, quite out of breath.

I do believe that the developers have completely no idea what to do with this class. Elementalist is a victim of it's design - it was to be the jack of all trades and it was - in vanilla. Now enter expansions and elite specializations - it all changed. Since HoT, since 2015 developers have basically no idea how to develop and where to go with Elementalist class. 

 

At this moment I'm quite sure that Elementalist will stay what it is - a flashy, nice looking and eye catching class. Something the developers can say "look, we have this completely unique take on mage archetype - go buy our game!". And people do, falsely lured by what seems to be cool class only to realize that it's barely playable. And it's been like that for almost 6 years.

Who plays Ele? People that have played it for a long time. People that love the idea behind. However each and every one of them has REAL, USABLE classes ready for actual game content.

 

What does ele have? Nothing, literally nothing. Not event good, consistent damage. In order to perform, elemetalist has to leech buffs from other party members. It's on permament life support. 

Support? Heal? Every competent player knows that a class has to bring something else besides heal and ele has only that. Support? Where do you find aurasher strong? Bunky PvP meta has been one of the most boring metas in the game, and thats only use for ele aura share.

Ele has no usefull party wide buffs, no means of actual, usefull active or passive sustain and no consistent damage. Don't look at Snow Crows - a kitten boss will not sit there like a sponge doing nothing. In Fractals/Raid, even PvE you have to move and play. React. Once that happens then look at the numbers. And that is why no one wants Ele in parties - because even in good hasnds it underperforms. I am not even talking about staff which has basically been a meme for years. 

 

Why I know ArenaNet doesn't care about the class? Beacause they don't even talk about it and explain the changed in a reasonable way. Just a bunch of general sentences. Nothing in depth. Every change is like: "let's switch some numbers, move some texts, so it looks like we do something". And then every balance patch is a nerf. Don't get me wrong - I'm not against them. But when it comes to this class it looks as if an intern has a chance to switch things around. It just doesn't make any sense, none at all. And ArenaNet doesn't explain those changes because even they don't know what they just did! Yay.

 

They don't know what to do with it. They know it needs a serious look at and even a redesign. However, my guess is that they don't have resources to do that or it just doesn't calculate. So ele stays what it is - a good advertisement, a stir in a pot of mmo mage archetype to lure new players to buy the game only for them to switch later on to an easy, high rewarding class for casual play. 

 

But hey, "we think that Ele is in a good spot"! Something about this sentence from ArenaNet puts me of, to say the least. It's like I live in a alternate reality from the developers. For a gaming comany that rose to prominence for it's fantastic work on balance in Guidl Wars 1, this is really incomprehensible. And it's been like that for years with this class.

Well, I guess I need a break :)

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17 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

I dont by a long shot. why would they go to SC For Data they already have?.. what SC says they have internal Systems already saying.

 

GW2 isnt the only game that does this.. Check out World of Warcrafts Feral druid as a great example. MMORPG Devs Cater to the Masses. so if the Masses are incapable of playing a Certain Class/Proffession. they wont put emphasis on that class thats effectively how this works.

 

if 90% of players Suck at Elementalist. Why Would u encourage them to Play Elementalist. your giving them a bad experience of your game and increasing the Risk they'll just leave the game..

 

staff Mirage got nerfed while only having a 29k DPS Parse on SC.

DH Didnt get nerfed while having a 41k DPS Parse on SC.

 

I think elementalist is Nerfed to retain easier speccs above it so new players come in with easier classes and by natural means are able to participate in content Easier.

 

all the changes are in preparation of EoD Effectively.. and as i said in my prior post, i think they'll make Eles 3rd Option alot easier to play and make the class more approachable and easier to grasp, they'll then leave weaver behind it so players turn to it.

 

I think ur looking at a Ranged DPS/Utility hybrid Specc which is Easier with a Smaller rotation and less attunement swapping.

 

Same with Condi Deadeye.. its completely unplayable, a Large reason i beleive this is because how many of the average Players got themselves Killed porting into things they shouldnt of.

 

 

Then why nerf elem ?

If really players don't play it because it's too complicated, if they don't care to make it "simplier", more useful, viable,  ... why actually give a look to elem and chose to make random adjustment every patch, weeks after "balance" ? It's nonsense. They could just forget elem at the back, as no one play it anyway; "it's in a good place, we don't touch anything get, with it. "

 

No. They do care about all classes. Obviously they're more into some, they can't  chop the favorites classes with an axe; like they should do with FB for example; very popular and overtuned.

They just don't have the right tools, no direction for elementalist.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Then why nerf elem ?

If really players don't play it because it's too complicated, if they don't care to make it "simplier", more useful, viable,  ... why actually give a look to elem and chose to make random adjustment every patch, weeks after "balance" ? It's nonsense. They could just forget elem at the back, as no one play it anyway; "it's in a good place, we don't touch anything get, with it. "

 

No. They do care about all classes. Obviously they're more into some, they can't  chop the favorites classes with an axe; like they should do with FB for example; very popular and overtuned.

They just don't have the right tools, no direction for elementalist.

 

Because everyones talking about its 42k DPS bench lol.. thats the highest bench on current offer. Which will create a Lure to new platyers starting Elementalist, dying a 1000 Times never learning its rotation.. and then never raiding/Fractals because they feel too bad to go further.

 

Same with every other case of this in every MMORPG, they Nerf something based on Raw numbers.. Because players Latch onto Raw numbers.

 

it dont matter if that 42k bench is Valid, it doesnt matter if its recognised to Be invalid. the point is. People read Numbers and FoTM Roll based on a Number.. it being a valid number doesnt realistically matter to this example.

 

As i said, i suspect, we'll see the new EoD Elite be Simplified and the lower Weaver is when the new elite releases.. the Easier it is to replace Weaver effectively. they're not gonna Rebuild a Elite Specc While also developing a Expansion, it requires too muc hattention for them to afford to hand out effectively.

 

they're not Nerfing based on SC. they're Nerfing based on Player reaction realistically, and players saying CONDI WEAVER SOO STRONG 42k DPS PARSE!!!!!! is enough to strike something... even teapot when Talking about the changes Says Condi Weaver is Super good and Super bursty so it needed its numbers reduced alittle abit.

 

When u have People out there saying this.. it drives Nerfs.

 

imho, FB and Scourge also dont get nerfed, because they carry Raids/Fractals.. it makes the game Easier.. and i think anet want it to work this way, it makes content Easier to access by players effectively. higher Play rates means more potiental income effectively.

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17 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

So they nerf classes according to benchmark, we agree.

 

I don't even care about benchmarks.  I am mostly a solo casual type.  But when I geared out condi firebrand to test I was already matching my fire weaver dps output right away without even knowing my skills or rotation.

 

That seems wrong every which way but especially when firebrand is also a better healer and support spec than ele as well.  Please tone this beast down already and compensate ele for its many limitations.

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18 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

So they nerf classes according to benchmark, we agree.


Well the problem is even if you nerf off benchmarks, CFB with 8 pages does the same or more damage unless you're solo or in competitive modes. This change doesn't make sense to me since if the burst was an issue (it really shouldn't be unless you mean PVP fire weavers running the signet) then simply halving the stacks and doubling duration would keep the effective damage the same.

The ashes of the just damage attribution in this patch may have something to do with it, but as far as I know all benchmarks have nobody else casting anything even if it is tested with "group". CFB could easily be cut 10% and it would still be played because aegis and tomes without slotting utilities is just that strong.

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45 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

So they nerf classes according to benchmark, we agree.

 

No. That's not what I said. 

 

They nerfed classes based on player reaction. If the playerbase United in a push balance wise it would actually happen. 

 

My post is basically saying their encouraging players to not role a elementalist, because a easier class will give them a better player experience in most cases. 

 

And there is proof of this being a problem. 

 

I play elementalist. I'm a new player, in 80 and have half ascended and half exotic gear but of the right stats etc etc. 

 

I'm Gold 2 in PvP which I actively play. And I'm too scared to play in PvE because the likelyhood imma suck is sooo much higher because of eles difficulty. 

 

I'm not raiding/ doing fractals. Due to a anxiety the class I chose with 0 information gives me. Is this a good player experience? Most likely not. And there are far more players like me then there are who can play weaver to a decent level. 

 

I'm considering changing class, not because of nerfs, not because of the classes DPS, or meta. But because the stress caused by my anxiety is actively gatekeeping my ability to enjoy other parts of the game. 

 

And it's not even built on being bad, or sucking because I'ce not even gotten to the point to see how bad I'd be at it. Because I'm too anxious to join the group in the first place to even get better at it to begin with. 

 

At the end of the day, I'm a average player. And I'm pretty certain there are tons like me you have plenty in streams who just instantly decide they could never learn it. Or too worried to try it. 

 

The weight of "good performance" is felt by alot far more then some. And in my case and people like me u could consider elementalist to be a "trap". Because it effectively has damaged my first impression of the game. 

 

Now ofcourse this isnt because weaver exists. It's because things such as core ele don't exist. 

 

It feels like a massive leap a overwhelming leap jumping from playing the class as a core elementalist and then trying to learn condi weaver. 

 

Now imho that's the real fix. Buff DPS tempest and core ele. Don't nerf weaver. Give the class more options so you can go in on a easier build before going into the higher difficulty. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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3 hours ago, Euclid.2517 said:
  • A 20% nerf in terms of total damage; even more in real combat since it affects the burst. Most likely you don't have 20 seconds (with 100% burning duration) to fully roll out that damage.

 

Do you guys (Anet) only do balance based on Snowcrows benchmark? Do you even play your own game? It is really been a while since I see an elementalist dps spec in pugs. Even in speedclear groups going for record, NO ONE WOULD PLAY ELE as dps. 

 

Right now it is scourge wars 2/firebrand wars 2 in PVE. 

 

Firebrand has 40k+ benchmark too, even by afking for 3 second during rotation. Yes, it is not listed on snowcrows. But I will kindly show it to Anet. https://youtu.be/_FZKHq0YU9A

 

Radiance is broken. F1 can get reset very often, resulting in even higher damage in real combat. Plus all other tomes/aegis spams. High Self Quickness uptime. Can take elite mantras for group stab, for fast phase situation like fractal.

 

DPS Scourge is fully ranged. With barrier spam. Epidemic. Give decent group might. It is just so good and tempting to stack scourge atm.

 

Weaver is fully dps spec. No support. Most squishy. No range (except scepter variant). Requires PERFECT BOON. Yet still not outperforming in terms of damage, which is the only thing it does.

 

Anet, Please check out this video from MightyTeapot. He explains things really well.

https://youtu.be/5-BiK7uyKrA

  

----------------------------

Unrelated notes: Please buff condi holo too. It is falling behind when all other condi spec is strengthened. Well, I know everyone play fb/rev/scourge etc., but Anet, you said want to buff class that are used less often, didn't you? 🙂

 

You take the time to clarify that everyone is playing FB and Scourge but call out rev when its really just Renegade. Don't lump those things in with the rest of the revenant playerbase, not all of us like it. And the nerfs keep hitting core and herald because people aren't clarifying that renegade is the culprit. 

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Yeah but that's false. 

There is no reaction about elementalist's benchmark. Not here on this sub-forum, not on Group content sub-forum, not on reddi, not in game. No one cares.

Plus this isn't new. Elementalist has repeateadly been top tier since tempest and was alreadu top1 before 11 may. So there is no surprise, there is no reason to do random changes to elementalist today rather than next balance patch or never.

 

Even newbies, if they do the effort to go on SC website, look at benchmarks, I suppose theuy also do the effort to read guides and they see no one is recommanding weaver or tempest.

 

We're not talking about staff mirage or pistol deadeye where people try it for real, and people reacts because of actual game footage, actual dps log, actual situations. Because they see it's overtuned, themself or they see* others players.
Same for FB no matter the benchmark, because they see* FB everywhere doing great, people asking for FB.

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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