Why nerf a spec that does not exist in PVE?

[Euclid.2517]

Just now, cat.8975 said:

That's more of an issue with how the mistlock singularity interacts with unique class buffs. Ask them to nerf that, not the class as a whole.

Also due to radiance, f1 can get reset really often in many situations. It just inflates the damage.

 

Also, permeating wrath. It is insane when you have some mobs stacked at boss, like in Siren. It again inflates the damage.

 

So cFB is much stronger than its benchmark looks like, in addition to all other utilities to the group.

[Euclid.2517]

I just wish if they have to nerf, nerf some other skills on dagger instead of signet of fire, which affects other condi ele spec as well. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Euclid.2517

[cat.8975]

2 minutes ago, Euclid.2517 said:

Also due to radiance, f1 can get reset really often in many situations. It just inflates the damage.

 

There are only a handful of places in the CM fractals where you'll get those resets. ai dark phase (cc adds), artsariiv (add that spawns the bubble), arkk, and mama, and you're usually better off playing power for those fights (excluding ai).

4 minutes ago, Euclid.2517 said:

Also, permeating wrath. It is insane when you have some mobs stacked at boss, like in Siren. It again inflates the damage.

 

PW is definitely strong against trash, but there are only 3(?) bosses in fotm where this is relevant. Trash usually dies almost instantly anyway. (Siren's is definitely the big outlier where PW really shines.)

[Extacy.6192]

1 minute ago, cat.8975 said:

What if that was their overall goal here, though? They've done the exact same thing to a ton of other skills in the last year or two, due to condi burst being so hard to deal with in those gamemodes. Sure, the 17% lost in PvE sucks a little, but it's not so significant as to make the build nonviable.

 

Absolutely could be their goal. I just wanted to make clear that infact the nerf is not so trivial. Especially considering pve phases / invuls and pvp wvw roaming.

 

The problem with the nerf is that ele "currently" is not exactly in the best state. You could argue that fire signet, if looked at it isolated, was a bit too strong, but in relation to the whole class and with all these other kitten utility skills it was needed. The "current" ele is fragile, you can't just nerf it without buffing some of the absolute trash utilities / traits.

 

Beside why did they nerf it in wvw / pvp too?

[Euclid.2517]

15 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

There are only a handful of places in the CM fractals where you'll get those resets. ai dark phase (cc adds), artsariiv (add that spawns the bubble), arkk, and mama, and you're usually better off playing power for those fights (excluding ai).

Yeah in the past it is true. But now with the change to exposed, I can only do better than my cFB with my power soulbeast except at 100CM and Ensolyss. All other professions lose to cFB atm.

 

And for pugs -.- cFB just strictly better now. For all reasons listed in beginning. My soulbeast very likely won't get stab reliably. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Euclid.2517

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Euclid.2517 said:

They did do balance based on SC. 42k dagger weaver had been there for almost 2 years already on youtube. But it was not on SC, so it did not get nerfed.

 

eeh i aint sold on it realistically..  Anet watch Streamers they've proven to.. they have seen Raids even if they dont do them themselves (Which they do.. one of them in Anet and Was Litterally raiding as he was talking to mela in melas Streams) they see the numbers.. as linked above they have access to actual Raid Data and numbers.

 

They will balance the game on what Sells the most.

 

All balancing between now and EoD are based on the new Elites.. we know that much to be true so realistically wildly throwing "its based on SC" is untrue. because again, we have proof anet watch youtube videos.. as they retweet Content creator Videos all the time.

 

if this theory was true, Staff Mesmer wouldnt of been nerfed, as by SC Standards it doesnt reflect well,  and condi mirage would likely get buffed as again it shown to be pretty low on Benchmarks.

 

i think its more likely CFB is actually where it is currently intentionally. Easy classes sell better then normal classes. Randomly nerfing ele based on a SC log, is 0 Gain from them.. Heres something to remmeber.. during their meetings and more they will be asked for Metrics based on player engagement.

 

Playing challanging classes, is actually Negative for Player engagement. because its Far more likely your average player will struggle to get involved with content if they cant play their class in the contents Enviroment.

 

by nature. if someone has 0 problems and nothing goes wrong and the player finds their induction to be easy to content, they will by nature do it more, if they Slam face first into a brick wall they're more likely not to bother.

 

this would mean Anet would Directly Gain from players playing cFB and Scourge Far more based on this metric alone. ur games success depends on Ease of Access by the average Player. weather they make physical profit from you or not Engagement metrics with content is important.

 

also being they're balancing the game based on a New Range of elites Speccs Power creep, means we dont have the whole picture when it comes to exactly why they're nerfing or buffing things. and if my theory on they're gonna Simplify ele by making a Easier new elite and forcing it to be meta is true... then they'll start wittling the classes other aspects Down to ensure its easy for the new elite to overtake by enough to "force" players to swap.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

3 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

They already nerfed AotJ with the ICD change, bringing cfb rampup more in line with every other condi build. The 40k bench video is also a bit of a meme, as it's using 8 page and RF at the end to boost the final number a tiny bit. Without that RF cast, the sustained is closer to ~38-39k. The 40k bench is definitely a good example of someone doing a "golem speedrun" instead of a more generalized dps benchmark. We've seen this all the time in the past with ele, which probably played a part in it seeing so many nerfs.

> Signet of Fire: The number of applied burning stacks on activation has been reduced from 4 to 2, and the duration of applied burning has been increased from 6 seconds to 10 seconds in all game modes.
4*6 = 24
2*10 = 20
20/24 = 5/6
A reduction of 16.6667%.

 

Signet of fire has a 1/2 sec cast-time, so it is 20% reduction in rotation. 

Joking, I don't know if it's 20%.We could argue about the precise number, but don't just look at the burning reduction, look also the skill in situation ; in practice it's a bit more than 16.667%

[cat.8975]

2 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

Signet of fire has a 1/2 sec cast-time, so it is 20% reduction in rotation. 

Joking, I don't know if it's 20%.We could argue about the precise number, but don't just look at the burning reduction, look also the skill in situation ; in practice it's a bit more than 16.667%

The cast time wasn't changed, so that doesn't matter. The skill does precisely 1/6th less damage after the patch.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yeah, no, my bad, I compared with an other skill with strike damage.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[apharma.3741]

If I remember the notes correctly it was a global change, this is in line with many burning changes made over the life of the game to make it less burst.

 

Also many of you guys clearly only play one mode and didn’t see the signet memes, this signet did crazy spike damage for not a lot of investment, go condi build, easy +100% burn duration with I think Balthazar runes and you could dismount anyone in WvW.

 

It was clearly an outlier, there’s clearly been efforts made to stop burning being too bursty, the ele community has become so degenerate over the years since they started nerfing staff in HoT.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Seeing these comments before reading the patch notes made me think there were multiple significant nerfs, but it was just a 16.67% reduction to fire signet? All of these complaints over a ~600 dps nerf to the build benching 42.1k. Incredible.

 

More like they throw a pointless nerf like this at a class that lags behind everywhere else because of a 42.1k benchmark on one build that can't even perform that well in real fights.  The usual story.  Meanwhile...cfb??  Oh, it isn't a top benchmark so there's no problem here. What!?

 

This is also why many players are frustrated with raids in this game.  For content most players don't even participate in, it sure does feel like it gets a lot of attention for balance patches.

[Euclid.2517]

22 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

If I remember the notes correctly it was a global change, this is in line with many burning changes made over the life of the game to make it less burst.

 

Also many of you guys clearly only play one mode and didn’t see the signet memes, this signet did crazy spike damage for not a lot of investment, go condi build, easy +100% burn duration with I think Balthazar runes and you could dismount anyone in WvW.

 

It was clearly an outlier, there’s clearly been efforts made to stop burning being too bursty, the ele community has become so degenerate over the years since they started nerfing staff in HoT.

So? Split the change then. And the thread is talking about PVE. Why are you talking about WvW here?

 

Also ele don't have many cover conditions like necro or herald; so burning would be easily cleansed in WvW situation. For zerg, you should not play condi. For roam, every roamer should have condi cleanse.

 

If you disagree with any point I made in the beginning of the thread, pointing them out. Claiming the community "being degenerate" and digress from the thread topic only shows your ignorance.

 

I used this in WvW/PvP before. It is strong in roam against newbie only, who has 0 condi cleanse. But a single cleanse would suffice, as ele has not enough cover conditions.  

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Euclid.2517

[apharma.3741]

9 minutes ago, Euclid.2517 said:

So? Split the change then. And the thread is talking about PVE. Why are you talking about WvW here?

 

Also ele don't have many cover conditions like necro or herald; so burning would be easily cleansed.

 

If you disagree with any point I made in beginning, pointing them out. Claiming the community "being degenerate" and digress from the thread topic only shows your ignorance.

 

 

 

 

Except the change to burning has been a global change in all game modes for most professions, as ANet has been very clear on condition builds needing ramp up times.

 

I gave the example of where the signet was pretty disgusting emphasising where it was really strong for almost no investment, which I have been seeing a lot lately since condition ele has risen to prominence. This likely contributed to burns being looked at. 
 

The ele community honestly gives thief community a run for its money in terms of being degen, instead of getting offended maybe look at how you contribute to the community being degen.

 

The signet change brings it into line with ANets vision for condition builds and at 16% nerf it keeps the build in play but not quite as strong as before. I’m very OK with this considering ANet often SBoons things.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Let's resume :

 

11 may : "Elem is in good spot, we want to buff condi builds"

Condi weaver : dps increased ~2% against a golem. Still, no one play elementalist in pve. Lesser elementalist in pvp because of necros and mesmers, thiefs everywhere.

08 June : Better nerf signet of fire.

 

Where is the logic ? Where is the condi vision ? Where is Anet contribution ?

You would say they nerfed signet of fire because of trailblazer meme in wvw ? Really ? Then why not a split ?

Edited June 9, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Dadnir.5038]

Apharma have the proper line of thinking I believe.

You shouldn't react while considering the present but react while considering the past. Changes tend to be slow to come and stay stucked in queue in GW2. It's not the first time that we see a change that was asked years ago suddenly appear out of nothing and in an uncomprehensible context.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Euclid.2517]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Except the change to burning has been a global change in all game modes for most professions, as ANet has been very clear on condition builds needing ramp up times.

 

I gave the example of where the signet was pretty disgusting emphasising where it was really strong for almost no investment, which I have been seeing a lot lately since condition ele has risen to prominence. This likely contributed to burns being looked at. 
 

The ele community honestly gives thief community a run for its money in terms of being degen, instead of getting offended maybe look at how you contribute to the community being degen.

 

The signet change brings it into line with ANets vision for condition builds and at 16% nerf it keeps the build in play but not quite as strong as before. I’m very OK with this considering ANet often SBoons things.

Still you are talking about WvW or PvP. I am talking about PVE. Your digression makes you look being degen. 

 

Also, I play all classes in raid/fractal. If you play them too, you would know in PVE this nerf should not happen. It is the least played class in PVE atm.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAH4wH4J6cA

 

Even after today's nerf, condi rev is still 42.7k with allies. Stronger than weaver even when it was not nerfed.

 

If you disagree, you need to give data and NUMBERS. Instead you keep digressing from the topic, and talk about WvW and PvP.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Euclid.2517

[Euclid.2517]

30 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Apharma have the proper line of thinking I believe.

You shouldn't react while considering the present but react while considering the past. Changes tend to be slow to come and stay stucked in queue in GW2. It's not the first time that we see a change that was asked years ago suddenly appear out of nothing and in an uncomprehensible context.

I am just sad. A lot of my friend has left the game and joined other games, including a god of WvW. Basically because what you said, changes are so slow even when every player see what is dominating and what needs urgent revamp. Look at power chrono. It dominated for that long, yet Anet haven't change it until a year later.

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Euclid.2517

[apharma.3741]

7 minutes ago, Euclid.2517 said:

Still you are talking about WvW or PvP. I am talking about PVE. Your digression makes you look being degen.

 

Also, I play all classes in raid/fractal. If you play them too, you would know in PVE this nerf should not happen. It is the least played class in PVE atm.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAH4wH4J6cA

 

Even after today's nerf, condi rev is still 42.7k with allies. Stronger than weaver even when it was not nerfed.

 

If you disagree, you need to give data and NUMBERS. And you keep digress from the topic, and talk about WvW and PvP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except I was talking about ANets handling of burns in general that we have seen over the years, this was for the third time, not applied to fire signet when most other burns got the treatment. It was clearly forgotten and has been addressed. They didn’t skill split the “reduce stacks but increase duration” between PvE and PvP/WvW initially.

 

Honestly which part of this is hard to understand? The build is still playable and your whataboutism only shows what you’re really doing, just as the first page shows how degen the community is.

[Euclid.2517]

9 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Except I was talking about ANets handling of burns in general that we have seen over the years, this was for the third time, not applied to fire signet when most other burns got the treatment. It was clearly forgotten and has been addressed. They didn’t skill split the “reduce stacks but increase duration” between PvE and PvP/WvW initially.

 

Honestly which part of this is hard to understand? The build is still playable and your whataboutism only shows what you’re really doing, just as the first page shows how degen the community is.

Playable, but not in the right place.  Condi rev still 42.7k after today's nerf. Did you see that video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAH4wH4J6cA

 

There is no reason to play this class atm. Have you really seen any ele in raid or fractal recently?

 

Also the condition burning of weaver is not as high as firebrand due to Ashes of the just. It needs more time to roll out since how bleeding of weaver works.. But they not nerfing cFB, and instead nerf weaver.

 

Which part of my statement is wrong or hard to understand for you? Yes, you are saying Anet is trying to control the burning effect. But weaver is not the strongest in terms of burning in PVE, referring to all evidence I give in beginning and just now.  

 

How is pointing out the fact "degen"? Should we all just shut up and be silent about fact?

Edited June 9, 2021 by Euclid.2517

[AliamRationem.5172]

19 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Except I was talking about ANets handling of burns in general that we have seen over the years, this was for the third time, not applied to fire signet when most other burns got the treatment. It was clearly forgotten and has been addressed. They didn’t skill split the “reduce stacks but increase duration” between PvE and PvP/WvW initially.

 

Honestly which part of this is hard to understand? The build is still playable and your whataboutism only shows what you’re really doing, just as the first page shows how degen the community is.

 

It shouldn't be difficult to understand. Here you have a class which is harder to play, is more reliant on support, and has plenty of other little disadvantages baked in if you look outside of raids. Why is it underperforming compared to faceroll specs like cfb, renegade, and scourge that also dominate the support roles?

 

It's not that the nerf to fire signet is a problem on its own. It's just a matter of...why!?

[apharma.3741]

12 minutes ago, Euclid.2517 said:

Playable, but not in the right place.  Condi rev still 42.7k after today's nerf. Did you see that video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAH4wH4J6cA

 

There is no reason to play this class atm. Have you really seen any ele in raid or fractal recently?

 

Also the condition burning of weaver is not as high as firebrand due to Ashes of the just. It needs more time to roll out since how bleeding of weaver works.. But they not nerfing cFB, and instead nerf weaver.

 

Which part of my statement is wrong or hard to understand for you? Yes, you are saying Anet is trying to control the burning effect. But weaver is not the strongest in terms of burning in PVE, referring to all evidence I give in beginning and just now.  

 

How is pointing out the fact "degen"? Should we all just shut up and be silent about fact?

I’m not engaging with you on the performance of ele in PvE outside of saying it is still playable which it is, you have to see SBoon levels of nerfs for something to no longer be playable. Stop trying to drag me into a conversation irrelevant to what I’m talking about.

 

My entire premise has been that fire signet was not touched when they made adjustments to many burn skills halving the stacks and approximately doubling the duration. This was always going to happen, anyone with an ounce of intellect knew it would happen.

 

I think (just a theory) that it is likely to have come now because I’m seeing lots of people use fire signet which will put it closer to the top of most used skills charts if anyone at ANet is analysing skill usage. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yes it is hard to undestand.

 

This is normal reaction to accept  a nerf today because months before, in a different state of the game, of the meta, people were complaining about fireweavers ? Or about meme condi elementalist in wvw roaming ? I don't think so.

May be this is the norm for Anet, doesn't mean this is acceptable, "fair".

 

And playable ? What does that mean ?

Yes it is playable. Cleric war is also playable, as quicknes FB. The game allows it. But is it really played ?

 

I haven't seen one elementalist in ATM this month; it's just full necro war with some thief, holo, mesmer, rev ... No elementalist, no fireweaver with signet of fire. May be there is, or some guys will say I lie; but it's relatively speaking not played compared to any new meme builds. And it's not like we were a lot before 11 may.

Same for Pve. Raids, fractals ... it is still too complicated, too risky, too dependant, selfish and  no matter how high can be benchmark, not worth it. Its even UNPLAYABLE in some wings as you don't have range option, nor block, enough tankiness... you just instant die at particular attacks or you can't hit bosses for full minutes.

So yes, at some point you're right; we don't care, we should not get emotive, about this skill. It doesn't change this fact; but this is hard to undestand the "vision" of Anet.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[apharma.3741]

I dunno have you tried playing a class because you enjoy the class? Just putting it out there.

 

The only point that had merit is that playing sword can be almost unplayable on some encounters which is why I’d like to see a ranged power build make a comeback. Most likely will have to be in the upcoming expansion as buffing staff is just a bad idea in general.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I dunno, may be this is because we enjoy weaver/elementalist we are in the misunderstanding about the random free nerfs between each updates.

 

Honestly I don't care about signet of fire. As you say the skill is pretty the same, it doesn't change gameplay. But seriously ... does elem really deserve nerfs in all modes because of some complaints a year ago about fireweaver ?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

May be the only direct buff of yesterday, is Purity of Purpose nerf.

It could change the build of scrapper or the compo arround boon corrupt X condi conversion, and give room to tempest.