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Pharaoh Package: Naming / Theme Issues.


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22 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

No, they're saying that the main issue will be white female humans and chonky norn appropriating from a culture that's been dead for thousands of years.

(Edit: Just in case it wasn't clear, that's not how cultural appropriation works, usually requiring a non-dominant living culture that's been marginalized or oppressed.)

Because you can't be respectful or mature about this discussion, neither will I.

First of all, yes, it does look like what you get when you search for "Pharaoh" images, at least in crown. It also looks like what you'd find in an adult store's costume section, or Spirit Halloween. In that sense, it does a believable job at least in the male portion at capturing the standard depiction of a pharaoh. Second of all, Egypt still exists. Only within the past year did they regain the literal remains of their historic leaders from the British. Imperialism has affected them into the modern day. That is a fact.

 

Lastly, the main issue again as OP stated isn't just the outfit itself, but rather its name, using a term from real world Egyptian rather than simply translating it to something that would fit in universe.

Rather than argue senselessly on something you do not care about enough to even do a moment of research, leave the thread to people who can make meaningful contributions, not simply "Well, I don't see the problem." Thank you.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, steph.1895 said:

Because you can't be respectful or mature about this discussion, neither will I.

First of all, yes, it does look like what you get when you search for "Pharaoh" images, at least in crown. It also looks like what you'd find in an adult store's costume section, or Spirit Halloween. In that sense, it does a believable job at least in the male portion at capturing the standard depiction of a pharaoh. Second of all, Egypt still exists. Only within the past year did they regain the literal remains of their historic leaders from the British. Imperialism has affected them into the modern day. That is a fact.

 

Lastly, the main issue again as OP stated isn't just the outfit itself, but rather its name, using a term from real world Egyptian rather than simply translating it to something that would fit in universe.

Rather than argue senselessly on something you do not care about enough to even do a moment of research, leave the thread to people who can make meaningful contributions, not simply "Well, I don't see the problem." Thank you.

It still isn't cultural appropriation though.  You want to be mature, then use an actual definition of cultural appropriation rather than willy-nilly extending it to everything and mistaking historic artifacts and pride in history for living culture.  There is nothing similar nor culturally ancestral at all between Modern Egypt and Ancient Egypt.  Do your own research before telling others to do theirs.

Edited by Chaba.5410
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Um, are we going to gloss over the fact that this game world and it's franchise+ plus many more like it has always incorporated real world names for items, clothing, places and creatures.  Bifrost and Mjolnir are prime examples off the bat for GW2.  Hell, some of the characters are named after real people.  Even a player has an anet created vendor character in game.  A server was even named after a player.

 

There are tons of things in this game and kitten near every rpg  out there that just have names with no lore behind them at all except the lore you find in the real world.

 

I guess people will find anything to complain about.  Btw, nods to Ancient Egypt and the Pharaohs isn't anything new to Tyria.  Warriors had similar armor set in GW1.

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6 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

They don't bother me. The naming could be better, sure. But aesthetically, they look good and fit in the world.

You know what doesn't? Cute cat ears, and legendaries that shoot rainbow unicorns. 

BLASPHEMY!!!! ✝️✝️✝️✝️meh kawaii 🐱🐱🦻🌈🦄 STAYS!!! IT IS LORE FOR ME :3

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Please pardon me for not having read the whole thread, there was one comment though where I massively rolled my eyes though and so I wanted to point out where's the indignation about culturally appropriately Norse culture and armour style? Or the generalisation of the Roman style organisation to Charr military actions, implying a European style warlike conqueror. Or that Cantha is isolationist and got rid of any other races, like a so called other Middle Kingdom mentioned in history.

 

Seperate point. One thing I absolutely Despise?

The term PoC. It's people, just people, of different ethnicities sharing 99% same genetic material. Most of the planet isn't white, so cease with this term and just finger point at white if you're so concerned.

 

Again, Just people.

 

I love the Pharoah outfit also. So thanks Anet.

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4 hours ago, decease.3215 said:

when people literally dress up like light bulb all around.. you have issue with this?

We already have lot of posts asking Anet for a slider to reduce visual cluster, let discuss something else including this one

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This whole thread just seems to be a case of nitpicking for the sake of it. If you over critique everything put in front of you you won't actually make it better, you will just dilute what we are given to the point of nothingness because everyone seems to take issue with everything that is done these days. The name is fine, there is definitely no racism at play and to suggest as such is simply absurd and a case of trying to be woke for the sake of attention.

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8 hours ago, Zavijah.2695 said:

Please pardon me for not having read the whole thread, there was one comment though where I massively rolled my eyes though and so I wanted to point out where's the indignation about culturally appropriately Norse culture and armour style? Or the generalisation of the Roman style organisation to Charr military actions, implying a European style warlike conqueror. Or that Cantha is isolationist and got rid of any other races, like a so called other Middle Kingdom mentioned in history.

 

Seperate point. One thing I absolutely Despise?

The term PoC. It's people, just people, of different ethnicities sharing 99% same genetic material. Most of the planet isn't white, so cease with this term and just finger point at white if you're so concerned.

 

Again, Just people.

 

I love the Pharoah outfit also. So thanks Anet.

You...I like you.  You're good people.

 

17 hours ago, kilobytten.7402 said:

Hard agree on the naming. The outfit itself I don't really have a problem with (in fact I immediately wanted to slap it on my Elonian character), but I do find it troublesome that we've been given specifically named outfits that are not of the GW2/GW universe.

 

The samurai outfit is a really good example. As far as I know, there are no samurai, or any samurai-themed organizations/characters.

 

Oh, but what about Cantha? From the Wiki:

 

  •  

Southeast Asian cultures. That's all very well and good. But so far what we've seen from Official Cantha has appeared very Chinese, with the exception of Tengu being more Japanese. If it's supposed to be a "generic Asia" like we've seen in other films and video games far too many times... That's kind of a yikes from me. The experiences of one or even two Southeast Asian cultures is not representative of ALL Southeast Asians. From what I've seen in game of GW2 and what I know of the universe, Cantha has always been shrouded in mystery, but from the vibe I get that it's mostly Chinese. Which leads me back to the Samurai outfit. Putting out a samurai outfit - while cool - can be misleading since players might equate "this is Asian, and therefore Canthan" which, ya know, again, a whole lotta yikes.  Which, isn't fair to the other cultures it might also be representing. Anet hasn't given us much details on that, and I'm honestly really hoping that EoD clears this up for us.

 

I've always had this gripe with Cantha: Almost everywhere I go, I hear Cantha = Asia, even though Cantha has clear German/Greek names. Even I feel that way. I'm excited for Cantha because of Asian aspects, but not Greek. Where is the Greek/German hype? Near non-existent, apparently. If Cantha is "just China with Greek and German names", that just sounds like someone decided to do a smashup of things that they thought would be cool without really delving into the things that made them cool/interesting/unique in the first place. An Asian-Greek culture could be really cool and ultimately kitten. I want to see that. In the end, I don't mind which culture folks want to represent - just pick some and do it well. Don't generalize. Really delve into that culture and all of the bits. Does Cantha include Japanese culture as an influence? Or is the Japanese themes only for Tengu? I hope EoD clears this up too.

 

I know ArenaNet can do better. They've done better. Elona came out really cool. I thoroughly enjoyed Path of Fire. I know teams don't often get the time to develop languages, but the subtle touches with words like "Ahai" and "Outlander" really sold it for me, along with the different architecture, clothing designs, and far too many details to list. Elona was and always will be amazing to me. I just hope that Cantha is treated just as well, tastefully, and respectfully to all of their influences. It's important now more than ever to make sure we get this right.

 

 

But going back on topic. I'm not Egyptian, Arabic, or from any part of the Middle East. I cannot speak for those who could be bothered by the pharaoh outfit by appearance or name. However, I can speak as someone who sees trends and gets worried bout them. I don't want a culture to be generalized and only have certain parts of that culture shown and marketed, as mine so often has been. I'd rather it be celebrated. I could write an entire essay about that but I digress.

 

 

To give Arenanet the benefit of the doubt: Let's say they did this for fun, and the Pharaoh outfit was not intended to be a part of the Elonian culture, as is the same with the Samurai outfit. As it was mentioned, we have rainbow unicorns too, and other things that aren't pertained to the GW2 Universe. Great! And honestly I'm not that bothered by these. I know rainbow unicorns don't really exist in the game, it's probably something fun that the devs wanted to put into the game that they liked. Awesome. Dig that. In an ideal world, all devs should love and continue to be in love with the content they are making.

 

However, if that's the case, I hope that there is a distinction, or some kind of statement from Anet that this was the intent and not tied to Elona or Cantha, respectfully. Because of the lack of distinction is what's causing ruckus and getting folks upset.

 

 

To close: some years ago, I read an Avatar the Last Airbender comic, and one of the scenes stuck to me. In the scene, Aang, the last of a nomadic tribe of Airbenders, is greeted by a woman who donned herself in Airbender clothes, and tattoos. She tells him about the group of people who are trying to revitalize his culture and even are calling themselves Airbenders. He becomes insulted and the line he says will always stick with me: "My culture is not a costume."

 

I don't want a Pharaoh or Samurai costume. I want an Elonian and Canthan outfit. I don't want to buy either until I know there's that distinction.

This complaint about Cantha has always rustled my jimmies, and I don't take too kindly to rustlers.

Yes, Cantha has a mix of different Asian cultures...because its a CONTINENT.  While not the size of RL Asia it has room for more than just one base culture.  As for the Luxons and Kurzicks, they are, or were back in GW1, vassal states that were separate from the main Canthan Empire.  They were each separate peoples from the majority of Canthans, possibly even ethnically distinct from them (not for sure though, its been a while).

But all that aside its really rich for people past and present to complain about Anet making a mishmash of Asian cultures when many other fantasy games do the same with European based cultures all the time, including games made in Asian.

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23 hours ago, Nile.5614 said:

Does anyone else find this extremely unfitting and/or problematic?
Neither of them mesh well with the Guild Wars universe just by name alone, and then the theming of both sets doesn't fit either.
It feels outright from a totally different game instead.

If this was supposed to be an "Elonian" outfit, then it probably would've been recolored and the named after the Mordant Crescent or designed in style of the Desert King items. 
The Shrine Guardian items aren't blatantly called "Kitsune" anything. So why is this outright "Pharaoh" and "Royal Anubis?"

 

I get your point and I'm with you but to be honest,... 50% of the player base looks like an anime character and the other 50% just had a romance with a daemon or an angel or something weird like that. I already trained my eye to be blind about it. I wish I had an option to "make things look like guildwars2 concept and lore".

 

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Posted (edited)

The main thing is that the outfit and the Anubis mount look great with my lovely brown skinned character, Sakkara. She really does look like the queen she was born to be now. Now I just need a flying Bastet skin for my Skyscale. Thank you Anet! I worked very hard to give her an Egyptian look before this. I love it! 


Also, I added the Dwayna weapon skins for her bow and axe. So pretty!

Edited by Kyri.2093
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On 6/9/2021 at 12:20 AM, steph.1895 said:

Because you can't be respectful or mature about this discussion, neither will I.

First of all, yes, it does look like what you get when you search for "Pharaoh" images, at least in crown. It also looks like what you'd find in an adult store's costume section, or Spirit Halloween. In that sense, it does a believable job at least in the male portion at capturing the standard depiction of a pharaoh. Second of all, Egypt still exists. Only within the past year did they regain the literal remains of their historic leaders from the British. Imperialism has affected them into the modern day. That is a fact.

 

Lastly, the main issue again as OP stated isn't just the outfit itself, but rather its name, using a term from real world Egyptian rather than simply translating it to something that would fit in universe.

Rather than argue senselessly on something you do not care about enough to even do a moment of research, leave the thread to people who can make meaningful contributions, not simply "Well, I don't see the problem." Thank you.

I don't see the problem. Neither in the outfit nor in the fact that people are allowed to express their opinions. I'd say your post is not a meaningful contribution.

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3 hours ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

I don't see the problem. Neither in the outfit nor in the fact that people are allowed to express their opinions. I'd say your post is not a meaningful contribution.

You don't see a problem because there isn't a problem. There are just some people elevating a personal dislike into a problem. If there is any problem at all, it's how common this attitude has become over the last decade.

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hmmm.
"Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery."

"My culture is not a costume."
Cultural appreciation vs cultural appropriation.
Though if I were to wear your clothes for a week or two, I may understand why you move the way you do.

 

If I am to be yelled at for eating your cuisine, casually using bits of your language (because English words are rather general and can lack nuance), or for wearing attire based on your traditional clothes; then I am quite likely going to tell myself that your culture is forbidden.  Then I shall probably stop reading about it and turn away when I see anything related to your culture, lest I offend.  If enough of us forget a culture, it will become lost.  It happens to tribal cultures all the time, their young folk are quite eager for modern things and modern ways... and the stories become lost.  

 

  I did read about decorative knot tying in China. The art had nearly been lost, one of their museums had a knotted piece in an exhibit titled: "traditions we used to have"  The book I was reading existed because some European crafting ladies saw that exhibit and then tried to find out how to make the knotwork.  They couldn't find any literature that went into any detail, so they ended up interviewing and learning from some very old individuals.  They had been quite eager to pass on their skills, because "my children, my grand children, and their children have no interest in traditional crafts, they say they have no time to learn."  Of course these European crafters showed off the knotwork they had learned to craft, and started a popular trend, and more people learned about decorative rattail knots. Industries in China realized that there was a demand for knotwork items and suddenly young people were being paid to learn about a traditional craft.  This was decades before cultural appropriation was a thing.  If this had happened in modern times, I wonder if the craft would have been allowed to die, because Europeans have no business making or wearing traditional Chinese crafts.

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2 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

hmmm.
"Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery."

"My culture is not a costume."
Cultural appreciation vs cultural appropriation.
Though if I were to wear your clothes for a week or two, I may understand why you move the way you do.

 

If I am to be yelled at for eating your cuisine, casually using bits of your language (because English words are rather general and can lack nuance), or for wearing attire based on your traditional clothes; then I am quite likely going to tell myself that your culture is forbidden.  Then I shall probably stop reading about it and turn away when I see anything related to your culture, lest I offend.


There isn't anyone to offend though.  The only modern living population that could possibly take offense is the Copts who are the actual descendants from Pharaonic Egyptians.  Their Christian culture no longer resembles that of Ancient Egypt.  The ancient symbols of an emperor who was considered a literal god just don't resonate with them anymore where offense would be taken.

Compare with wearing an American native feather head dress, which still has a living cultural meaning.

Edited by Chaba.5410
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On 6/8/2021 at 1:39 PM, Nile.5614 said:

Does anyone else find this extremely unfitting and/or problematic?
If this was supposed to be an "Elonian" outfit, then it probably would've been recolored and the named after the Mordant Crescent or designed in style of the Desert King items. 

"Unfitting?" If you mean in terms of the game theme, there are several outfits that are unfitting. The gemstore doesn't have the same restrictions as pve obtainable armor for fitting the game's theme.  Also, you can dye the outfit to be whatever colors you want.  In terms of Desert King we have the Awakened Outfit use that.  Personally, there are a variety of things I don't like about Desert King stuff.  But I like this Pharaoh outfit a lot :D.

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