Did Joko look at Zhaitan and thought to himself: "lmao noob"?

[Aodlop.1907]

Joko could resurrect himself, until his magic was devoured. Zhaitan was never capable of that feat. So much for the Elder Dragon of undeath and necromancy. 

If I were Joko, I know I'd be dabbing on Zhaitan and telling him to L2P.. 

 

Thoughts?

[Tyson.5160]

2 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Joko could resurrect himself, until his magic was devoured. Zhaitan was never capable of that feat. So much for the Elder Dragon of undeath and necromancy. 

If I were Joko, I know I'd be dabbing on Zhaitan and telling him to L2P.. 

 

Thoughts?

Or Zhaitan could have unbound Joko’s magic and become immortal itself.

[Aodlop.1907]

Yes but it wouldn't change the fact that a mere human achieved a better understanding and mastery over Death than the Death dragon himself. Zhaitan is laaaaame. Boooh. Praise Joko.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Aodlop.1907

[radda.8920]

Joko is well above ancestral dragons

praise joko ! he will be back when this aurene monstrosity will have been annihilated

Edited June 8, 2021 by radda.8920

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Getting tired of these troll threads.

[Bast.7253]

It is a shame that we never got to learn more about how Joko became the way he is. I think it's presumed that a Djinn granted him his immortality, but it is pretty weird to think that a lowly Djinn could grant a being so much control over versus an elder dragon of death. 

[Touchme.1097]

3 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

It is a shame that we never got to learn more about how Joko became the way he is. I think it's presumed that a Djinn granted him his immortality, but it is pretty weird to think that a lowly Djinn could grant a being so much control over versus an elder dragon of death. 

Abaddon gifted Joko his powers, Zhaitan doesn't have to be able to resurrect itself in order to be an Elder Dragon of Undeath.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Abaddon gifted Joko his powers, Zhaitan doesn't have to be able to resurrect itself in order to be an Elder Dragon of Undeath.

Citation needed.

[Bast.7253]

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Citation needed.

His imagination, best I can tell.

Unless I missed something we never got any explanation and only had minor hints here pointing toward the Djinn theory.

[Bast.7253]

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Citation needed.

Oh, I see. He's referring to the scriptures of Abaddon that Joko had stashed. But one of them is stated to just be a map to a "powerful wish granting Djinn." So, kind of but not really.

[AgentMoore.9453]

1 minute ago, Bast.7253 said:

Unless I missed something we never got any explanation and only had minor hints here pointing toward the Djinn theory.

In GW1, ascension ghosts tell us that the scriptures of Abaddon were used by Joko as tools to inflict great suffering on them and the people of Elona. The scriptures were something that Joko found (and sealed away) while he was tidying up a corner of the Desolation to build his bone palace. One of these contained location data for an extremely powerful Djinn that supposedly only granted a single wish per century.

 

There is no confirmation that Joko ever looked for the Djinn or wished for anything, but the idea that he did seems like the most solid bet for how he got powers strong enough to override dragon corruption and quite literally cheat death. It'd be nice to know for sure, but I guess I'm comfortable enough assuming that's what happened.

[Touchme.1097]

22 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Citation needed.

Sure, I will have a look at all the information gathered from playing all the GW2 LW and expansion stories including the insane number of achievements done and books red. I may be right, who knows. Who else do you think could have given Joko his magic and immortality?

There is no doubt there are a lot of things pointing out on the mysterious Djinn granting Joko a wish, as Joko is also classified as a mummy whish is an Elemental.

The Vizier of Orr became a Lich Lord after using scrolls of Dark Magic and the lore in this case seems to point out to Abaddon and his magic.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Touchme.1097

[The Greyhawk.9107]

6 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Sure, I will have a look at all the information gathered from playing all the GW2 LW and expansion stories including the insane number of achievements done and books red. I may be right, who knows. Who else do you think could have given Joko his magic and immortality?

There is no doubt there are a lot of things pointing out on the mysterious Djinn granting Joko a wish, as Joko is also classified as a mummy whish is an Elemental.

The Vizier of Orr became a Lich Lord after using scrolls of Dark Magic and the lore in this case seems to point out to Abaddon and his magic.

Translation: it's a head canon you made up.

[Touchme.1097]

16 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Translation: it's a head canon you made up.

Being there no official answer from the writers I can only assume by exclusion, the likelihood of my claims being right are acceptably high. This is how I work with lore at the moment.

Consider that there has been a Lich already, Vizier Khilbron became a lich through Abaddon's magic. 

I don't think a Djinn is powerful enough to equal the power of Abaddon by granting a wish.

EoD could offer us some answers to confirm either one or the other theory, who knows?

There has been a discussion on Joko already in the past, here is the link: Who, or what, is Joko? - Lore - Guild Wars 2 Forums

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Head. Canon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 6/10/2021 at 7:06 PM, Touchme.1097 said:

Who else do you think could have given Joko his magic and immortality?

A wish granting djinn.

Dhuum.

Whatever source Zoldark got his lichdom powers from.

Whatever source Mazdak got his lichdom powers from.

Whatever source Fendi Nin got his lidhcom powers from.

 

On 6/10/2021 at 7:06 PM, Touchme.1097 said:

 Joko is also classified as a mummy whish is an Elemental.

I'm going to assume you're referring to the Carven Effigies since they are elementals by mechanics, however, the other awakened are mummies and are not elementals. Joko is an undead, not an elemental.

On 6/10/2021 at 7:06 PM, Touchme.1097 said:

The Vizier of Orr became a Lich Lord after using scrolls of Dark Magic and the lore in this case seems to point out to Abaddon and his magic.

I'd stress that the Lost Scrolls are not Abaddon's magic. They're magical scrolls from before Abaddon spread magic to the world from the Bloodstone. The origin of the Lost Scrolls are, ultimately, unknown. Furthermore, it is unspecified if the Lost Scrolls are what turned Khilbron into a lich - we don't know how he became a lich. It should be noted that a Vizier of Orr with powerful necromancy who turned Fendi Nin into something of a lich, far too similar to Khilbron's story to be a coincidence, was around in 1016 AE - this is 55 years before Khilbron read from the Lost Scrolls and caused the Cataclysm.

 

So technically speaking, Abaddon did not turn Khilbron into a lich. He - via his servants - directed Khilbron to the Lost Scrolls which may or may not have made Khilbron a lich.

 

Besides, if Abaddon's magic turned Khilbron into a lich, why was Khilbron the one who turned The Hunter into a psuedo-lich and not Abaddon or some other agent of Abaddon? Clearly, since Khilbron can bind The Hunter's soul to its bodies (aka what distinguishes a lich from standard undead), something on par to The Cataclysm isn't strictly necessary, so why didn't Abaddon have an army of liches if he could just make one?

[Touchme.1097]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

A wish granting djinn.

Dhuum.

Whatever source Zoldark got his lichdom powers from.

Whatever source Mazdak got his lichdom powers from.

Whatever source Fendi Nin got his lidhcom powers from.

 

I'm going to assume you're referring to the Carven Effigies since they are elementals by mechanics, however, the other awakened are mummies and are not elementals. Joko is an undead, not an elemental.

I'd stress that the Lost Scrolls are not Abaddon's magic. They're magical scrolls from before Abaddon spread magic to the world from the Bloodstone. The origin of the Lost Scrolls are, ultimately, unknown. Furthermore, it is unspecified if the Lost Scrolls are what turned Khilbron into a lich - we don't know how he became a lich. It should be noted that a Vizier of Orr with powerful necromancy who turned Fendi Nin into something of a lich, far too similar to Khilbron's story to be a coincidence, was around in 1016 AE - this is 55 years before Khilbron read from the Lost Scrolls and caused the Cataclysm.

 

So technically speaking, Abaddon did not turn Khilbron into a lich. He - via his servants - directed Khilbron to the Lost Scrolls which may or may not have made Khilbron a lich.

 

Besides, if Abaddon's magic turned Khilbron into a lich, why was Khilbron the one who turned The Hunter into a psuedo-lich and not Abaddon or some other agent of Abaddon? Clearly, since Khilbron can bind The Hunter's soul to its bodies (aka what distinguishes a lich from standard undead), something on par to The Cataclysm isn't strictly necessary, so why didn't Abaddon have an army of liches if he could just make one?

Hi Konig, you have always been very knowledgeable about Guild Wars lore but I would exclude Dhumm's involvement, because the fallen God was strictly against undeath. Thanks for your thoughts

Dhuum - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

The mummy/elemental reference can be found in the GW1 wiki on Joko's page.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Touchme.1097

[Tyson.5160]

6 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Hi Konig, you have always been very knowledgeable about Guild Wars lore but I would exclude Dhumm's involvement, because the fallen God was strictly against undeath. Thanks for your thoughts

Dhuum - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

The mummy/elemental reference can be found in the GW1 wiki on Joko's page.

Yes, however it should be noted that Aurene can use god powers from fallen gods, where most of the time, when dragons absorb magic they usually drain the essence and not respected ability or properties. The fact that Aurene is immortal, could point to some lost ability that Joko located involving Dhuum, from the time of when the Gods first walked in Tyria.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Hi Konig, you have always been very knowledgeable about Guild Wars lore but I would exclude Dhumm's involvement, because the fallen God was strictly against undeath. Thanks for your thoughts

Dhuum - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

The mummy/elemental reference can be found in the GW1 wiki on Joko's page.

Counter argument:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skeleton_of_Dhuum

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minion_of_Dhuum

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Champion_of_Dhuum

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuum's_Enforcer

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuum's_Messenger

 

It seems that either Dhuum's lightened his code during imprisonment, or has been very hypocritical about the use of undead and cheating death - in a "I can do it but you cannot" kind of forbiddence.

 

As to the reference on Joko's page, I did a search and there is zero use of "elemental" or "element" on Joko's surprisingly highly lacking GW1W article. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Yes, however it should be noted that Aurene can use god powers from fallen gods, where most of the time, when dragons absorb magic they usually drain the essence and not respected ability or properties. The fact that Aurene is immortal, could point to some lost ability that Joko located involving Dhuum, from the time of when the Gods first walked in Tyria.

TBH, Aurene's immortality from Joko's magic is a huge anomaly that can have many possibilities.

For example, it's very plausible that the reason why Aurene was able to use Joko's magic after consuming it was because she had so little other magic that it was enough to make an influence, and over time she would assimulate it like Primordus has done to Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's by the time of IBS (we don't know if she can still keep herself alive using Joko's magic after all).

In the end it was a poorly explained bit that is yet another case in Tom Abernathy's claim of "lore isn't important, characters are" without realizing that you can't have good character development without consistencies and foundations in lore.

[Touchme.1097]

28 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Counter argument:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skeleton_of_Dhuum

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minion_of_Dhuum

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Champion_of_Dhuum

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuum's_Enforcer

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuum's_Messenger

 

It seems that either Dhuum's lightened his code during imprisonment, or has been very hypocritical about the use of undead and cheating death - in a "I can do it but you cannot" kind of forbiddence.

 

As to the reference on Joko's page, I did a search and there is zero use of "elemental" or "element" on Joko's surprisingly highly lacking GW1W article. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko

You are right and I agree on all of that, although your counter argument doesn't imply that Dhuum would have given Joko his powers and immortality, undeath only applies to Dhuum's minions. There is no source claiming that Joko would be a minion of Dhuum, another point against this assumpion would be the limited amount of background story we know about Joko's past.

 

About the reference you are also right, I have done a mistake in there, the lack of elemental on mummies however removes further the likelihood that Joko's immortality could have been granted by a Djinn, in my opinion. Not that it would have been of any relevance anyway.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Touchme.1097
grammar and wording corrections

[Dao Jones.6720]

Why would Zhaitan bother to make himself immortal? The Elder Dragons don’t die of old age, don’t fear death, and - prior to the Pact Commander’s shenanigans - had never once in their existence met a force on Tyria that could beat them.

 

You don’t need to be “immortal” when you have no concept of your own mortality.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 6/12/2021 at 10:05 PM, Touchme.1097 said:

There is no source claiming that Joko would be a minion of Dhuum, another point against this assumpion would be the limited amount of background story we know about Joko's past.

I'd argue the limited amount of background on Joko's past is a point for the possibility of him at one point being a fanatic of Dhuum, or at least pretending to be, rather than against.

Joko pretends to be a lot of things, who's to say one of those things in the past was a servant of Dhuum, or even Abaddon? At least long enough to get what he wants. It's not like Dhuum can hunt him down since he's imprisoned still.

On 6/12/2021 at 10:05 PM, Touchme.1097 said:

About the reference you are also right, I have done a mistake in there, the lack of elemental on mummies however removes further the likelihood that Joko's immortality could have been granted by a Djinn, in my opinion. Not that it would have been of any relevance anyway.

I don't see how the lack of elementals in Joko's army is an indication away from getting a wish granted by a djinn. In GW1, we see the djinn grant a wish, and the wish granted (to become wealthy enough to match the three Princes of Vabbi) has zero relevancy to djinn or elementals outside of the djinn granting the wish.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

Joko can't ressurect himself if we vaporize all his cells with the "glory of tyria" ship main lazer cannon... or melted in lava ... Or melted in acid.... We were just hitting him with sticks and swords inside a closed room... no wonder he can regenerate and call himself immortal...

 Zhaitan's corrosive acid spit can melt Joko to a puddle of liquid

Kralk can turn Joko to be it's branded minion

Primordus can melt Joko

Jormag can trap Joko in ice for eternity but can't kill him

Mordremoth can't harm Joko in anyway unless mordremoth acquired some death magic from zhaitan and put Joko inside a blight pod and let Joko fight among Joko clones who can also regenerate like the original now that would be the joke on Joko 🤣😂

[Yggranya.5201]

On 6/16/2021 at 3:02 AM, Dao Jones.6720 said:

Why would Zhaitan bother to make himself immortal? The Elder Dragons don’t die of old age, don’t fear death, and - prior to the Pact Commander’s shenanigans - had never once in their existence met a force on Tyria that could beat them.

 

You don’t need to be “immortal” when you have no concept of your own mortality.

Once you've witnessed two of your brethren offed by puny mortals, you'd think the first thing Kralkatorrik would have done was to devoured joko, just in case. I mean, there's no downside and magic is magic.

 

Anyway, i'll ask this once again: Now that aurene is undead, when is it going to turn sickly green and sprout extra faces from its mouth?