Did Joko look at Zhaitan and thought to himself: "lmao noob"?

[Teratus.2859]

Zhaitan was immortal anyway so he'd have no need to follow whatever path Joko took to achieve immortality as a Lich.

Besides if the two fought Zhaitan would likely have been the victor, he eats magic after all just like Aurine so either way Joko would have ended up in a Dragon's stomach.

A better question would be, could Zhaitan corrupt Awakened since they're already dead?
If he could then Joko would have been a fool to dare go anywhere near Zhaitan.
He'd just be giving Zhitan a free army.

[Imba.9451]

12 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Zhaitan was immortal anyway so he'd have no need to follow whatever path Joko took to achieve immortality as a Lich.

Besides if the two fought Zhaitan would likely have been the victor, he eats magic after all just like Aurine so either way Joko would have ended up in a Dragon's stomach.

A better question would be, could Zhaitan corrupt Awakened since they're already dead?
If he could then Joko would have been a fool to dare go anywhere near Zhaitan.
He'd just be giving Zhitan a free army.

kitten, that would have made for a pretty interesting story.

[Aodlop.1907]

On 7/11/2021 at 9:51 PM, Teratus.2859 said:

Zhaitan was immortal anyway

He died though. Like every single dungeon boss who calls us "mortal!" and then dies immediately.

WoW in particular is really guilty of this.

[Teratus.2859]

32 minutes ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

He died though. Like every single dungeon boss who calls us "mortal!" and then dies immediately.

WoW in particular is really guilty of this.

Yeah I chalk this up more to how most fantasy media treats the term Immortal compared to the actual definition.

A lot of fantasy stuff regard immorality as absent death via natural means like aging etc.
Not so much the actual definition of Immortal as being exempt from death entirely.. can't be killed etc.

Elder Dragons as far as we know are immortal in the sense they don't age and die of natural means.
I guess a common "immortal" thing to compare them to in other fantasy media would be Vampires, regarded as immortal for the same reasons but can also be killed, hurt and wounded like Elder Dragons can.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 7/11/2021 at 2:51 PM, Teratus.2859 said:

Zhaitan was immortal anyway so he'd have no need to follow whatever path Joko took to achieve immortality as a Lich.

Besides if the two fought Zhaitan would likely have been the victor, he eats magic after all just like Aurine so either way Joko would have ended up in a Dragon's stomach.

A better question would be, could Zhaitan corrupt Awakened since they're already dead?
If he could then Joko would have been a fool to dare go anywhere near Zhaitan.
He'd just be giving Zhitan a free army.

In Lore, Zhaitan and Joko's forces had been battling in one of the unexplorable areas for a very long time.

 

Its not outright stated but its roughly established that dragons prefer not to (or in some cases, simply can't) corrupt other creatures that follow a hive mind or anything resembling a hive mind, including other dragon minions, the Sylvari, the Chak, and likely the Awakened as well

 

Corruption overrides free will, and doesn't seem to work properly if free will doesn't exist to begin with? (Whether the Dream is free will or not is debatable; by the Nightmare Court..)

 

I think we've never once seen corrupted Skritt either, and curiously, no corrupted Mushrooms in all of Maguuma, though its unknown if its for related reasons or just an oversight.

 

Even Mordremoth couldn't corrupt Sylvari until the Pale Tree was weakened enough, or they shut themselves off, and its literally what they were designed/born for, which says alot about the limitations of corruption. The Pact Commander, if Sylvari, couldn't be corrupted no matter what, because of willpower.

 

We also don't see many Branded Awakened until Joko is dead, (despite half of Vabbi getting branded in Path of Fire) but after Jahai Bluffs we see alot of them from then on out.

 

So the answer is, as long as Joko's exerting his direct influence on Awakened, they're likely difficult to corrupt.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Ehecatl.9172]

It is worth noting that Aurene seemed to take longer and had a harder time returning to life than Joko did. It could be a lack of experience with the magic, but it could also be that it takes a greater effort to resurrect something that is larger and more powerful.

 

If that is true then it is possible Zhaitan did have this power but that by the time we deal the final blow we'd been starving him of magic for months cutting down his champions and preventing him from feeding. When he finally died he may have just not had enough magic left to resurrect.

 

Ultimately Zhaitan suffers from having been the first elder dragon we faced when the game was still young. Modremoth and Kralkatorrik were done much better.

 

It would've been awesome if after cutting Zhaitan down with asuran lasers he came back to life and we had to find some way of permanently cutting him off from access to magic to keep him dead.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

46 minutes ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

It is worth noting that Aurene seemed to take longer and had a harder time returning to life than Joko did. It could be a lack of experience with the magic, but it could also be that it takes a greater effort to resurrect something that is larger and more powerful.

Aurene took longer because she had a giant brand spike going through her heart. As was mentioned in War Eternal. Joko was just beaten up a lot., and didn't have anything impaled in a vital part of his body to prevent healing.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 8/22/2021 at 5:13 PM, Ehecatl.9172 said:

It is worth noting that Aurene seemed to take longer and had a harder time returning to life than Joko did. It could be a lack of experience with the magic, but it could also be that it takes a greater effort to resurrect something that is larger and more powerful.

 

If that is true then it is possible Zhaitan did have this power but that by the time we deal the final blow we'd been starving him of magic for months cutting down his champions and preventing him from feeding. When he finally died he may have just not had enough magic left to resurrect.

 

Ultimately Zhaitan suffers from having been the first elder dragon we faced when the game was still young. Modremoth and Kralkatorrik were done much better.

 

It would've been awesome if after cutting Zhaitan down with asuran lasers he came back to life and we had to find some way of permanently cutting him off from access to magic to keep him dead.

We.. did permanently cut him off from access to magic. Besides his reliance on specialised minions which provided sustenance, its made pretty clear in the game that cleansing The Artesian Waters (which is likely a massive ley-line hub) Zhaitan was cut off from his magic completely and extremely weakened in the Battle of Arah.

 

It was said that the Artesian Waters flowed magic to "every corner of the nation", and it was such a powerful concentration of magic that its literally what attracted the Human Gods to Tyria to begin with.

 

And while the dragons aren't all polar opposites, Life is the opposite of Death and its likely Caladbolg, a weapon created from a purified Dragon Champion had some role to play in all of it. The devs have said this wasn't Zhaitan's key weakness, but its also stated in-game that the victory couldn't've been won without Caladbolg either.

 

On top of this, the cannons and megalaser on The Glory of Tyria were made from Kudu's unethical and very unfortunate research into Elder Dragons and their minions, they weren't normal weaponry.

 

Zhaitan got completely destroyed in every way. Modremoth had the advantage of hindsight. He knew all about the Pact Commander, Destiny's Edge, etc. which means he had some degree of Zhaitan's knowledge, which completely changed the playing field especially since the Pact had become overly confident.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Ehecatl.9172]

19 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

We.. did permanently cut him off from access to magic. Besides his reliance on specialised minions which provided sustenance, its made pretty clear in the game that cleansing The Artesian Waters (which is likely a massive ley-line hub) Zhaitan was cut off from his magic completely and extremely weakened in the Battle of Arah.

 

Oh, I know. On paper it makes sense given we starved Zhaitan before engaging him so any tricks he might've had probably weren't available.

 

I am just saying it would've been better presented if we had an attempt on Zhaitan that failed before finding the solution that put an end to him. One thing I loved about the Kralkatorrik fight was how he kept enduring even through our carefully laid plans. Every time we got close to killing him he pulled out a new trick to keep himself alive. It felt like a real struggle where there were points we could've actually lost and by the time that final blow came it felt like an immense undertaking.

 

Zhaitan's fight is notoriously underwhelming largely because by the time we face him head on we already have the strategy to kill him. If there was more of a give-and-take and the reveal of Zhaitan having abilities we didn't know about yet like with Kralkatorrik it would've felt more hard fought.

[Imba.9451]

6 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

Oh, I know. On paper it makes sense given we starved Zhaitan before engaging him so any tricks he might've had probably weren't available.

 

I am just saying it would've been better presented if we had an attempt on Zhaitan that failed before finding the solution that put an end to him. One thing I loved about the Kralkatorrik fight was how he kept enduring even through our carefully laid plans. Every time we got close to killing him he pulled out a new trick to keep himself alive. It felt like a real struggle where there were points we could've actually lost and by the time that final blow came it felt like an immense undertaking.

 

Zhaitan's fight is notoriously underwhelming largely because by the time we face him head on we already have the strategy to kill him. If there was more of a give-and-take and the reveal of Zhaitan having abilities we didn't know about yet like with Kralkatorrik it would've felt more hard fought.

I'd go even further and argue that just based on theme, Zhaitan would have been the best dragon to be faced last, simply because his domain is death. Would have made an epic finale with Zhaitan using the ressucerted corpsed of the other dragons (or whats left of them) and their magic to become the true endboss. Although this might be just my personal preferance.