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5 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

What about zerker Chrono? I know it’s less powerful but that’a part of my point I suppose 

I mean, feel free to go and try and compare. Even zerker chrono is significantly more viable than non-trapper zerker DH.

 

Honestly, I'm all for removing trapper-runes, its a cheap gimmick. But let's not pretend that DH won't go straight back to trash-tier alongside core-ele if they are removed with no compensation.

Edited by Ragnar.4257
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14 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I mean, feel free to go and try and compare. Even zerker chrono is significantly more viable than non-trapper zerker DH.

 

Honestly, I'm all for removing trapper-runes, its a cheap gimmick. But let's not pretend that DH won't go straight back to trash-tier alongside core-ele if they are removed with no compensation.

I never said anything about removing trapper runes though. A compensation in a form of sustain is debatable to me though given their damage output and the fact others like chrono are even less durable. Maybe some mobility instead?

As for revenant and ranger - I see your point, but making another op build does not seem like solution

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1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

if longbow 5 on dh is allowed to do damage while having a cc attached to it, someone make ranger's axe 4 do damage while traveling out since that's not the cc part too

 

jk offhand axe doesn't exist in pvp

There's a difference between the two as to why one has damage and one doesn't. 

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40 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

There's a difference between the two as to why one has damage and one doesn't. 

What specifically is different about them that would warrant it? They're both multi-hitting skills in which the CC is applied on a different instance of damage than what would be the actual damaging hit.

 

The statement made earlier is that a skill isn't allowed, on any given strike, to do both CC and damage at the same time.

That's true for Hunter's Ward, Pistol Whip, even Palm Strike. It's not true for Path of Scars.

 

I'm mostly just goofing around because it wouldn't be a meaningful change for the weapon, but of all the multi-hit CC skills, Path of Scars is the only one that took 0.01 coefficient to both parts of it.

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5 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

It's not the players have an irrational obsession with GS.

 

What you say is true, that if you combine around Fierce Blow properly, then hammer damage is actually surprisingly okay.

 

However, hammer has several other problems that GS does not:

1) Any strong weaponset needs to have both some defensive and offensive capability. GS has this with evades, and strong kiting potential, hammer offers absolutely no defensive capability. If you get focused in a teamfight, you're screwed.

2) Actually landing hits. It's trivially easy for any ranged class to just walk around in circles and pewpew you to death (ranged doesn't necessarily have to mean longbow-ranger here, just anything that can pressure from beyond melee range). Again, GS has ways of closing that gap, and has the range on some of its hits to apply pressure beyond immediate melee distance. On top of that, even if you do get close enough, it's not exactly difficult for an opponent to blind/block/daze the key hammer skills.

3) Hammer can be rendered completely impotent by stability, in a way that GS can't.

4) GS burst is not g1mped by SpB 1-bar adrenaline cap, hammer is.

 

All of that said, I don't think giving damage back to hammer CC skills will change much. It doesn't fix any of the issues listed above. Hammer has simply been power-crept out of viability, regardless of CC-damage.

Sometimes it does feel like so, coming from someone who doesn't want Revenant to have a GS next expansion but everyone be begging. Something like throwing Axe/Dagger or even Scepter to me is more suitable.

 

I can say it's mostly truth but hammer playstyle is not to be neglected while sharing most of what makes GS interesting outside an evade, the layout of skills is rather the same, no cleave but can definitely keep away reses, they're by design fair trades if you ask me.

 

Put in the big picture here, if Hammer had an evade with all the Weakness. It'd be a tad too unbalanced (Paired with Body Blow) if you ask me, while Adrenaline is locked down, fortunately the mobility that comes from the Burst skill in combat only can allow for a lot of different niches, but that's the downside. GS doesn't have it's mobility locked down as such so it's easier to manage around.

 

Undeniably Warrior in general still relies a lot on CC even with GS so definitely can't just mash people with Stability away but the Damage is there, with Hammer that'll be even more demanding in compensation, Axe in my opinion does compensate for that and not to forget about Revocation, that one is incredibly effective against Jalis Stance.

 

Shortly put, everything is there but differently and sustain is weakness+cc rather than evade with freely accessed mobility.

Edited by Shao.7236
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1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Sometimes it does feel like so, coming from someone who doesn't want Revenant to have a GS next expansion but everyone be begging. Something like throwing Axe/Dagger or even Scepter to me is more suitable.

 

I can say it's mostly truth but hammer playstyle is not to be neglected while sharing most of what makes GS interesting outside an evade, the layout of skills is rather the same, no cleave but can definitely keep away reses, they're by design fair trades if you ask me.

 

Put in the big picture here, if Hammer had an evade with all the Weakness. It'd be a tad too unbalanced (Paired with Body Blow) if you ask me, while Adrenaline is locked down, fortunately the mobility that comes from the Burst skill in combat only can allow for a lot of different niches, but that's the downside. GS doesn't have it's mobility locked down as such so it's easier to manage around.

 

Undeniably Warrior in general still relies a lot on CC even with GS so definitely can't just mash people with Stability away but the Damage is there, with Hammer that'll be even more demanding in compensation, Axe in my opinion does compensate for that and not to forget about Revocation, that one is incredibly effective against Jalis Stance.

 

Shortly put, everything is there but differently and sustain is weakness+cc rather than evade with freely accessed mobility.

Any sustain that relies upon hitting a single enemy is inherently worse sustain than sustain that does not.

 

First, it does not scale up. It doesn't work when you're being focused by multiple targets.

Second, it does not work if you're not in a position to attack someone - if you're low and needing to kite, or out of range, or can't engage onto a point with multiple enemies, or the enemy is invulnerable.... etc

 

Sustain that is conditional on gaining a hit is, in these scenarios, effectively the same as having zero sustain. Whereas an evade or block or invuln or blink/leap is always valuable.

 

Axe is also similarly g1mped as hammer by SpB only having 1 bar of adrenaline. A L1 eviscerate is basically no better than auto-attacking.

Edited by Ragnar.4257
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57 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Any sustain that relies upon hitting a single enemy is inherently worse sustain than sustain that does not.

 

Sustain that is conditional on gaining a hit is, in these scenarios, effectively the same as having zero sustain. Whereas an evade or block or invuln or blink/leap is always valuable.

 

This right here is the big problem with Warrior. Too much of it's sustain is locked behind having to hit a target, be it with Burst skill (Defense and Tactics), or to a lesser extent gaining might (Strength, Tactics, and Spellbreaker). 

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3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Any sustain that relies upon hitting a single enemy is inherently worse sustain than sustain that does not.

 

First, it does not scale up. It doesn't work when you're being focused by multiple targets.

Second, it does not work if you're not in a position to attack someone - if you're low and needing to kite, or out of range, or can't engage onto a point with multiple enemies, or the enemy is invulnerable.... etc

 

Sustain that is conditional on gaining a hit is, in these scenarios, effectively the same as having zero sustain. Whereas an evade or block or invuln or blink/leap is always valuable.

 

Axe is also similarly g1mped as hammer by SpB only having 1 bar of adrenaline. A L1 eviscerate is basically no better than auto-attacking.

Well, that's assuming Spellbreaker, I speak from Core Warrior. I don't play elites.

 

Axe weapon skills are severely underrated, the damage is pretty high compared dagger also.

 

Speaking from Core Revenant that I've been into for 2 years with much success to speak of, which has more hit to sustain than self appliance, it does rely on Weakness just as much to not die instantly. However yes they do have RotGD as an insane mutiplier, no denying it however at the cost of damage.

 

Just to say, even if Warrior has to play that way. It's possible to do so.

 

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

This right here is the big problem with Warrior. Too much of it's sustain is locked behind having to hit a target, be it with Burst skill (Defense and Tactics), or to a lesser extent gaining might (Strength, Tactics, and Spellbreaker). 

 

So Momentum. Particularly consistency as well.

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On 6/9/2021 at 9:33 PM, KrHome.1920 said:

The initial damage of hunters ward follows the same rules as other cc skills (0,1 multiplier). The final damage has a big tell and is mechanically like remaining in an AOE field.

So... kinda like grav well which however does no damage?

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8 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I mean, feel free to go and try and compare. Even zerker chrono is significantly more viable than non-trapper zerker DH.

 

Honestly, I'm all for removing trapper-runes, its a cheap gimmick. But let's not pretend that DH won't go straight back to trash-tier alongside core-ele if they are removed with no compensation.

Zerker chrono is a thousand times less viable than dragontrapper.
Less damage over time, less burst (unless you burn CS too... but that thing has 105s cooldown, we're on the same tier as lich), damage is blockable (whereas test of faith, from which most of the damage comes from, is unblockable, and so are spear of justice\deflective shot), less range (you need to be melee for shatters to work; a dh can pewpew you instead, while pulsing cripple with the spear of justice to totally deny any kiting), less sustain (dh has both F3 + f2 + renewed focus + another f3 + another f2 + every stealth in between; chrono doesn't even get distortion), less mobility (chrono gets 1 blink every 35s, no superspeed at all), less stealth (3s stealth at most vs 12s or something like that), much less armor, no blind for defensive purposes (whereas dh gets blind from sword2\purification\deflecting shot). Only thing you get is 4k more HP... which a DH can deplete with 2 autoattacks anyway. If chrono had access to half the tools a dh has there'd be a kittening uproar.

Edited by Terrorhuz.4695
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24 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

So... kinda like grav well which however does no damage?

Grav well does CC on every pulse, on Hunter's Ward the CC and damage strikes do not happen simultaneously. In fact, you can be hit by every damaging strike of Hunter's Ward without being CCed, as long as you don't move. The same is not true for grav well.

 

Hunter's Ward is much more similar to Thunderclap (Scrapper Hammer) where the CC strike doesn't count as a damaging strike because it does literally 0 damage, but the lingering AoE after that does a decent bit of damage on every pulse.

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1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Zerker chrono is a thousand times less viable than dragontrapper.
Less damage over time, less burst (unless you burn CS too... but that thing has 105s cooldown, we're on the same tier as lich), damage is blockable (whereas test of faith, from which most of the damage comes from, is unblockable, and so are spear of justice\deflective shot), less range (you need to be melee for shatters to work; a dh can pewpew you instead, while pulsing cripple with the spear of justice to totally deny any kiting), less sustain (dh has both F3 + f2 + renewed focus + another f3 + another f2 + every stealth in between; chrono doesn't even get distortion), less mobility (chrono gets 1 blink every 35s, no superspeed at all), less stealth (3s stealth at most vs 12s or something like that), much less armor, no blind for defensive purposes (whereas dh gets blind from sword2\purification\deflecting shot). Only thing you get is 4k more HP... which a DH can deplete with 2 autoattacks anyway. If chrono had access to half the tools a dh has there'd be a kittening uproar.

I guess you missed the part where I said NON-trapper-rune DH.

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On 6/11/2021 at 10:01 AM, Ragnar.4257 said:

It's not the players have an irrational obsession with GS.

 

What you say is true, that if you combine around Fierce Blow properly, then hammer damage is actually surprisingly okay.

 

However, hammer has several other problems that GS does not:

1) Any strong weaponset needs to have both some defensive and offensive capability. GS has this with evades, and strong kiting potential, hammer offers absolutely no defensive capability. If you get focused in a teamfight, you're screwed.

2) Actually landing hits. It's trivially easy for any ranged class to just walk around in circles and pewpew you to death (ranged doesn't necessarily have to mean longbow-ranger here, just anything that can pressure from beyond melee range). Again, GS has ways of closing that gap, and has the range on some of its hits to apply pressure beyond immediate melee distance. On top of that, even if you do get close enough, it's not exactly difficult for an opponent to blind/block/daze the key hammer skills.

3) Hammer can be rendered completely impotent by stability, in a way that GS can't.

4) GS burst is not g1mped by SpB 1-bar adrenaline cap, hammer is.

 

All of that said, I don't think giving damage back to hammer CC skills will change much. It doesn't fix any of the issues listed above. Hammer has simply been power-crept out of viability, regardless of CC-damage.

 

Can't they nerf the CC or something on the weapons? sounds like they might need overhaul or something.

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On 6/9/2021 at 5:54 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

The wards don't cc you unless you walk into them, and they don't do damage while knocking a target down so the damage and cc components are split. For instance you can't use longbow 5 to interrupt res because the final impact doesn't technically cc. Regardless,  cc doing negligible damage across the board is still a dumb decision and should have never been implemented or at least reverted a long time ago.

so dragon's maw should start doing damage?

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On 6/11/2021 at 10:48 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

if longbow 5 on dh is allowed to do damage while having a cc attached to it, someone make ranger's axe 4 do damage while traveling out since that's not the cc part too

 

jk offhand axe doesn't exist in pvp

if only axe 4 wasnt scuffed I would use sword/axe instead off gs from time to time, but alas it is what it is

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4 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

so dragon's maw should start doing damage?

I think it should along with many other skills, but it not doing so doesn't break anet's rule because dragon's maw is like two cc skills mashed together. The first one pulls the target into the trap and deals damage (now reduced to negligible damage because cc + damage not allowed). The second part of the skill is the ward which keeps targets in the trap which like longbow 5 has never done damage to enemies who tried to cross. If dragon's maw didn't pull targets into it and just formed a ring around them like longbow 5 does, it would still be allowed to deal damage by anet's rule.

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