PSA No Down State Week Starting This Friday Reset June 18th

[Arheundel.6451]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

 

So to sum up what you two are saying... All guild groups in the game are actually crap and carried by support because otherwise they wouldnt need them to begin with and no downstate prove it. Hahaha, I approve of your message. 

Anyway, for me no downstate still only does this:

 

- It emphasize optimized meta builds everywhere, reducing diversity and build options.
- It makes combat way too fast and victories unsatisfying.
- It remove any sense of teamwork and being able to assist other players when they fall.

- It remove any excitement trying to turn combat situations with multiple downs.

= it makes GW2 a duller, lesser game and for what? Some instant gratification for people proclaiming "sKiLl!". 

Downstate compared to no downstate is like passionate loving compared to a one night stand.

the only groups I see are made of scrappers, FB, necros, tempests, C-Heralds or renegade outsustaining everything else, getting outplayed despite their tankiness and still come on top thx to ressing utilities and extra sustain.....I see far less skill in that than prancing around knowing you can die as fast as you kill

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I mean yes, I'd wager at least 75% of guild groups are carried by support. 

 

The point is, with downstate you can't ever take that support out because rez speed is too fast.  So you have support AND extra support via downstate and rezzing.  

 

Without downstate you have to actually play your class.  If you don't you get punished for it--for instance you'll still have super high ranks trying to meme on the warclaw (seen a lot of golds and mithrils do this) and get insta spiked.  If there was downstate their group would run over and rez them out of it, but without downstate they become useless, as they should for taunting.

 

Yes, you may get bursted and or ganked--but certain classes are literally built for this.  If you stay near your group anyway and have any idea how to play your class that chance goes down even against glass 'one shot' builds.

 

I dunno how else to put this---but no downstate may make people QQ but it is the purest way to tell skill from no skill.  I believe this is important for a mode that is all to reliant on claim buffs and way too many safety nets (downstate, supports, warclaws, superspeed, etc.).  

Your definition of "skill". Thats what the differing opinions is about. For me, no downstate make the game a whole lot easier. You dont have to think tactically, you dont have to anticipate the behaviour of downed and their teammates. No sacrifices in the build to account for being able to stomp, no need to cc people around them. Just instakill and halleluja off to the next target. +1 gank builds is "skill". But for some reason, someone failing to stomp someone when they could have brought the "skills" for it... oh no. Thats not your fault. Thats the bad enemy.

 

The thing is, all these issues with the "safety nets" can be solved without removing downstate. We've already said it lots of times - removing rally, nerfing downed state hp, nerfing downstate skills, only allowing 1 to res, slower res speed etc etc. 

 

How many actually disagree with implementing any of that? Probably about the same as the amount rabidly wanting to delete downstate.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I mean yes, I'd wager at least 75% of guild groups are carried by support. 

 

The point is, with downstate you can't ever take that support out because rez speed is too fast.  So you have support AND extra support via downstate and rezzing.  

 

Without downstate you have to actually play your class.  If you don't you get punished for it--for instance you'll still have super high ranks trying to meme on the warclaw (seen a lot of golds and mithrils do this) and get insta spiked.  If there was downstate their group would run over and rez them out of it, but without downstate they become useless, as they should for taunting.

 

Yes, you may get bursted and or ganked--but certain classes are literally built for this.  If you stay near your group anyway and have any idea how to play your class that chance goes down even against glass 'one shot' builds.

 

I dunno how else to put this---but no downstate may make people QQ but it is the purest way to tell skill from no skill.  I believe this is important for a mode that is all to reliant on claim buffs and way too many safety nets (downstate, supports, warclaws, superspeed, etc.).  

You forget ressing glyphs and similar utilities, stealth/block/reflects/invulnerability to guarantee ress.....plenty of tools to survive for those who should be back to respawn

[Arheundel.6451]

No downstate reflects what GW1 was, a truly skill based game compared to this mess , if you got caught out of position it was "down with you", positioning and timing ..the epitome of skill. There is absolutely nothing skilled dancing around with perma boon builds running like a phalanx unit thx to perma stability/protection/regeneration/resolution+ gyros, barrier spam.....

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Scrapper's elite mechanic is the function gyro, which only works with downed players. It has a few nice side-effects by now, but the mechanic and the idea behind it is rendered useless for that week.

Edited June 20, 2021 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[KrHome.1920]

14 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

- It emphasize optimized meta builds everywhere, reducing diversity and build options.

 

It does the opposite. No downstate means one less sustain mechanic you have to think about, which leads to more strategies that work, which means more diversity.

 

And that sustain mechanic does even scale with numbers, which is the definition of stupid in a game mode like wvw, where sides are never balanced.

 

Quote

- It makes combat way too fast [...].

 

Isn't that what we all wanted after Feb.2020 - faster combat?

 

Quote

- It remove any sense of teamwork and being able to assist other players when they fall.

 

By your logic adding another downstate of the downstate on top does improve team work even more! Because when the player falls and then the rezbot falls too, than you have another chance to showcase teamwork!

 

Guild Wars 2 gives you a ton of support capabilities BEFORE someone dies. If the game had no cc, no aoe, no boon sharing, no group stealth ... then you might have a point here.

 

Quote

Downstate compared to no downstate is like passionate loving compared to a one night stand.

 

No it's like comparing an hour of pleasure to a night of frustration.

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Dawdler.8521]

6 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

By your logic adding another downstate of the downstate on top does improve team work even more! Because when the player falls and then the rezbot falls too, than you have another chance to showcase teamwork!

 

Guild Wars 2 gives you a ton of support capabilities BEFORE someone dies. If the game had no cc, no aoe, no boon sharing, no group stealth ... then you might have a point here.

And by your very same logic adding more CC on top of CC and more boons on top of boons and more stealth on top of stealth improve teamwork even more since thats available BEFORE you die! 

 

How weird. I thought people wanted less of that. But apparently we can just add or delete anything and it improves teamwork. Well I know deleting thief would. Or giving everyone permastealth? Great now your logic has left me confused.

[Sylvyn.4750]

7 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Scrapper's elite mechanic is the function gyro, which only works with downed players. It has a few nice side-effects by now, but the mechanic and the idea behind it is rendered useless for that week.

Yeah if no downstate becomes permanent, they will need to revamp quite a few abilities and traits that would then be useless.

[XenesisII.1540]

Much like they did with retaliation they would have to of course revamp all the associated skills and traits for no down state.

Which won't happen because it would require redesigning to do a complete split in function of skills for pvp/pve, not just numbers, if they keep it in pve, which they will, as they rely on it much more as part of the game than pvp.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

25 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Much like they did with retaliation they would have to of course revamp all the associated skills and traits for no down state.

Which won't happen because it would require redesigning to do a complete split in function of skills for pvp/pve, not just numbers, if they keep it in pve, which they will, as they rely on it much more as part of the game than pvp.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that--I mean, it's anet--half the skills they break they leave broken with no compensation (300 CD passives lolol).  So it wouldn't surprise me a 'solution' is that those skills still work in PvE so its fine that they are broken in the PvP modes.  

[XenesisII.1540]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that--I mean, it's anet--half the skills they break they leave broken with no compensation (300 CD passives lolol).  So it wouldn't surprise me a 'solution' is that those skills still work in PvE so its fine that they are broken in the PvP modes.  

 

And again, that was just a matter of adjusting cooldown, not reworking it into something else.

 

Look at their history of nerfs and changes. They're fine with changing "numbers" between modes, not actually making a skill work completely different in the different modes. This is why we mostly see cooldown differences, count differences, damage differences, but not actual completely different functions in skills and traits in the modes. (Frankly I wouldn't want this anyways as it will get confusing keeping track of all the changes between modes, no thanks.)

 

This is why something like mirage dodge was screwed with to "fix" mirage cloak because they couldn't/didn't want to change it's function in wvw, so they tried limiting it's use instead.

 

So again I would not expect them to take out down state and completely overhaul the skills and traits for it. No down state is still highly controversial and not worth their time to change, they would rather run the week event and go about their business.

Edited June 20, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[Pacificterror.7805]

The weekend was quite fun. Many more larger scale fights than I'm used to seeing and on every map as well.

 

I didn't get as much playtime as I would have liked but at least the playtime was interesting!

[Gotejjeken.1267]

19 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

And again, that was just a matter of adjusting cooldown, not reworking it into something else.

 

Look at their history of nerfs and changes. They're fine with changing "numbers" between modes, not actually making a skill work completely different in the different modes. This is why we mostly see cooldown differences, count differences, damage differences, but not actual completely different functions in skills and traits in the modes. (Frankly I wouldn't want this anyways as it will get confusing keeping track of all the changes between modes, no thanks.)

 

This is why something like mirage dodge was screwed with to "fix" mirage cloak because they couldn't/didn't want to change it's function in wvw, so they tried limiting it's use instead.

 

So again I would not expect them to take out down state and completely overhaul the skills and traits for it. No down state is still highly controversial and not worth their time to change, they would rather run the week event and go about their business.

 

Downstate still works in PvE, so clearly toggling it is possible.  So they already have a split--why would it be so hard just to permanently disable it for WvW? 

[XenesisII.1540]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Downstate still works in PvE, so clearly toggling it is possible.  So they already have a split--why would it be so hard just to permanently disable it for WvW? 

 

What? yes downstate is toggled, do you not understand my points?

 

[Sylvyn.4750]

24 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Downstate still works in PvE, so clearly toggling it is possible.  So they already have a split--why would it be so hard just to permanently disable it for WvW? 

 

So what compensation would an engineer get for the useless Function Gyro, which revives downstate allies or finishes downstate enemies?  How about the Guardian trait Protective Reviver that grants the guardian a protective shield to revive a downstate ally and revives them at a slightly faster rate?  How about a mesmer's Illusion of Life and a warrior's downstate skill Vengeance, which allow a player to get back up and fight and be revived if they kill a foe within a certain # of seconds? 

 

I could go on, but there are so many skills and traits revolving around the downstate that there's no way Anet could just slightly modify them to operate one way for PvE/PvP and another for WvW, they would need to have a completely alternate skill or trait take their place just for WvW, but that would make it confusing and require more build templates for those that dabble in more than one mode.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Realistically speaking they'll never get rid of downstate, so that's not even worth discussing.

 

But it does make sense to nerf downstate health as downstate was not touched while mostly everything else was nerfed, thus buffing it relatively.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

 

So what compensation would an engineer get for the useless Function Gyro, which revives downstate allies or finishes downstate enemies?  How about the Guardian trait Protective Reviver that grants the guardian a protective shield to revive a downstate ally and revives them at a slightly faster rate?  How about a mesmer's Illusion of Life and a warrior's downstate skill Vengeance, which allow a player to get back up and fight and be revived if they kill a foe within a certain # of seconds? 

 

I could go on, but there are so many skills and traits revolving around the downstate that there's no way Anet could just slightly modify them to operate one way for PvE/PvP and another for WvW, they would need to have a completely alternate skill or trait take their place just for WvW, but that would make it confusing and require more build templates for those that dabble in more than one mode.

 

How do those work this week? There's your answer.  

 

Reason I brought up 300s CD 'fix' was those traits are still technically useable but no one will take them due to the stiff penalty.  So revive traits and downstate abilities could be made technically useable...in PvE.  

 

If that requires build swapping then so does everything else, it's why legendary armor / trinkets / weapons exist.  You wouldn't use a raid setup in WvW and wouldn't really use a glass gank build in open world PvE, etc. etc.  

[Karagee.6830]

No downstate in WvW should just be permanent. I just don't care about kitten professions, they can just adapt, but do you know what you can't change? Not being able to kill players because you are outnumbered in the fight or because more enemies suddenly show up and you can't finish them even though you have already beat them.

 

At the very least have no downstate or no rallying in any way other than self abilities (so no ressing by other players in combat either), if you are downed by a player with the outnumbered buff.

[Junkpile.7439]

Only fun part in downed state is that you can keep enemy in downed state long time while whispering him all kind of stupid kitten.

[Zyreva.1078]

10 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Dang, cry more about it or round up some numbers. You want to get rid of a fun and engaging game mechanic because you can't get a kill in a crowd? Change your build maybe. 

What exactly is the "fun and engaging" part about downstate? Getting half of your burst absorbed by a free invuln? Practising dmg rotations against an immobile meatshield? Pressing "F"? Waiting for the stomp channel to complete?

Dealing with downstate is mostly about numbers involved and to an lesser extent about involved builds, but very little about player skill. The only tricky part can be decision making, but gameplay wise it is either trivial or impossible to deal with downstate, as options are very limited (for either side).

Fighting "alive" players involves a lot more diversity, thinking and mechanical skill - which is ultimatively what makes the combat "fun and engaging", and should really be the more important part about fights. But due to how op downstate is, the opposite tends to be the case in uneven fights tho (and that's the majority of fights in WvW) and that tends to make fights the opposite of "fun and engaging" - unless getting carried by numbers and an undeniably overpowered mechanic is the only way you are winning fights i guess ...

Edited June 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[derlistigeuhu.1658]

The point that you have to use a cc to stop a res or use the downed to bait people into ressing and bombing them. No downstate is dumbing the game down to simple player focus in the already annoying power creep.

[Zyreva.1078]

CC does not prevent resses tho. Often it only delays them - usually by a very short amount of time (if they do anything at all - hello stab) and since they don't deal dmg anymore it might end up being just a waste of time and cds. Only cc that can be very good vs downed+ ressers is tornado. Wow, so many options. Unless you have a numbers advantage ofc, then pretty much any button you press is going to be beneficial one way or another. Similar applies to "using downed bodies as bait" - not an option very often.

 

It only feels "dumbed down" atm, because most players are too used to their downstate crutch and have never learned to stay alive without, so they fall over like PvE mobs. But defensive powercreep is still way more prevalent than dmg powercreep so that's not an excuse for dieing all the time.

 

Edit: I'm not opposed to keeping downstate, if it were more balanced and less oppressive. But that would require some significant nerfs.

Edited June 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:37 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

It does the opposite. No downstate means one less sustain mechanic you have to think about, which leads to more strategies that work, which means more diversity.

 

This is...not how this works...at all. 

[Sylvyn.4750]

20 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

How do those work this week? There's your answer.  

 

Reason I brought up 300s CD 'fix' was those traits are still technically useable but no one will take them due to the stiff penalty.  So revive traits and downstate abilities could be made technically useable...in PvE.  

 

If that requires build swapping then so does everything else, it's why legendary armor / trinkets / weapons exist.  You wouldn't use a raid setup in WvW and wouldn't really use a glass gank build in open world PvE, etc. etc.  

 

There are skills that CAN'T be unselected...you can't swap out the Function Gyro for something else if you are running a Scrapper...it's a Minor Adept trait that doesn't give you an alternative, and its main purpose is to finish downed foes or revive downed allies, so if no downstate is a permanent thing, the Function Gyro needs a new set of skills for WvW.  Sure, there are other traits that give the Function Gyro additional bonuses, but those are secondary to reviving or finishing, which can turn the tide in a fight by affecting the numeric advantage, especially in a small scale fight.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

On 6/19/2021 at 7:15 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

 

So to sum up what you two are saying... All guild groups in the game are actually crap and carried by support because otherwise they wouldnt need them to begin with and no downstate prove it. Hahaha, I approve of your message. 

Anyway, for me no downstate still only does this:

 

- It emphasize optimized meta builds everywhere, reducing diversity and build options.
- It makes combat way too fast and victories unsatisfying.
- It remove any sense of teamwork and being able to assist other players when they fall.

- It remove any excitement trying to turn combat situations with multiple downs.

= it makes GW2 a duller, lesser game and for what? Some instant gratification for people proclaiming "sKiLl!". 

Downstate compared to no downstate is like passionate loving compared to a one night stand.

 

You don't understand, it makes the game more like Call of Duty: Fantasy Edition which makes them feel better.

 

Or like Apex, where when no one plays with them, downstate isn't a thing either cause no point with no squad to get you up.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Kylden Ar.3724