PSA No Down State Week Starting This Friday Reset June 18th

[Gorem.8104]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:29 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And yet I'm ganking on my glass Soulbeast and having a blast 😆 

 

I love no downstate weeks.

Same here, I'm running glassish Soulbeast too and having a blast as well haha! This week is awesome, wish it happened more often! 

 

Need more events in wvw, keep is spiced up! 

[schokelmei.8271]

I don't know what spiced up means. You can run in a normal week on your dumbed down glass (kek) soulbeast and still succesfully kill everything in your way (or use your endless mobility to avoid getting zerged).
No downstate doesn't change that at all.

 

 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

so many people talking about stuff they don't even understand. we had a zerg VS blob fight for three hours nearly yesterday, 33-40 vs 55-60 ... and won most of it after a short "how to get into that ball" time.

 

downstate changes nothing, the bigger group just could res even easier, but the smaller group can res theirs then as well, and can be mechanically better at this.

 

if u get "caught" outside ur group, its bc the CC-spamchain is absurd, same with the pulling. in no world u can just "run around" that these days.

 

unless your group is pretty great, downed people are dead 90% of the time anyways. people with brain of the enemy group have eyes on them and bomb u if handres, the chrono/fb signets or warri banners need to come out very fast to avoid cleaves to happen, at least in largest-scale.

 

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 firendly reminder that 80v80 doesnt exist, map caps are 70~ and u will never get more than 60 even remotely close to a tag.

[Sobx.1758]

Nah, downstate gives even bigger edge to the bigger group, which is pretty stupid.

 

At this point, just make no downstate event occur every other week.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

it does absolutely not sobx. cleaving downed agianst overnumbers is superhard bc dmg is low thx to useless feb2020 nerfs. even with warclaw stomp, getting rid of bigger groups was waaaaay more easy.

 

like explain HOW would it profit bigger groups. bc it just doesn't? full death = no fast res

 

it would only, if u run a comp that is fast with resing, but those res-bots and rallybots are just another quality difference between the fighting groups, as i said.

[Sobx.1758]

Yes, it absolutely does give an edge to outnumbering side.

I mean... explain what? You literally wrote it in your post? "cleaving downed agianst overnumbers is superhard bc dmg is low thx to useless feb2020 nerfs. even with warclaw stomp, getting rid of bigger groups was waaaaay more easy. " 

So it's hard against outnumbering side, because the dmg nerf, but why did you specify it's hard against outnumbering if it doesn't give it an edge? 🤔   "because it would be easier with more dmg"? Sure, but apparently you needed that lower dmg to magnify the facts and help you understand that it is harder against outnumbering side. Which means it gives the edge to the outnumbering side. Which is stupid and bad. Ok? Ok. Thanks for supporting my argument, I guess.

 

2 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

like explain HOW would it profit bigger groups. bc it just doesn't? full death = no fast res

So you're saying the downstate doesn't give the bigger group an edge only if you'll be able to finish them off faster? So otherwise it does give it an edge? Yes, that's what I'm saying. It does give an edge to outnumbering side more than the other.

You commenting about "difference in quality of fighting groups" is pretty weird, seeing how to compare it you'd obviously take similarly skilled players in similarly composed squads. This is how you compare stuff. Otherwise you take a squad of """pros""" and a squad of semi-afking casuals and you can show whatever you want, but that seems pretty pointless.

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gorem.8104]

Ah man this is ending soon, it was so fun 😞

 

They really need to have constant events going in wvw, different ones with breaks between would be great and mix things up. 

 

Besides really, the 100% extra you get honestly should be the base wexp, like you get it soooo slowly. 

[Nidome.1365]

Having no downstate is the worst idea that ever existed. All it does is boost the the blobbers and gankers the very people that drive people away from WvW.
Are you trying to destroy WvW more than it already has been?

[ArchonWing.9480]

They should do it more. There's too many players that think going down every 10s is much skill so  it's pretty refreshing to not have to deal with it for a week. Now if only they'd take this as a learning experience and not make excuses that'd be cool. Or maybe not run stupid builds. Oh who are we kidding? "Oh no, I need to respawn and pay 0c in repairs. The horror!"

 

I mean normally we just call them rallybots that jeopardize the whole squad like every 12s but at least you can't help the enemy now. 😉

Edited June 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[kash.9213]

10 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

They should do it more. There's too many players that think going down every 10s is much skill so  it's pretty refreshing to not have to deal with it for a week. Now if only they'd take this as a learning experience and not make excuses that'd be cool. Or maybe not run stupid builds. Oh who are we kidding? "Oh no, I need to respawn and pay 0c in repairs. The horror!"

 

I mean normally we just call them rallybots that jeopardize the whole squad like every 12s but at least you can't help the enemy now. 😉

The people who complain about rally bots are the same lazy people who don't bother to finish downs. Speaking of stupid builds, if you gas out after a gimmick burst and you and your entire team can't finish a downed player then you have nothing to complain about, just stuff to work on.

Edited June 25, 2021 by kash.9213

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

The people who complain about rally bots are the same lazy people who don't bother to finish downs. Speaking of stupid builds, if you gas out after a gimmick burst and you and your entire team can't finish a downed player then you have nothing to complain about, just stuff to work on.

I agree. I can res almost anyone I want in most fights and it is somewhat their fault they can't stop me.  I often run scrapper and am quite proud of it. But that's not what I'm talking about here.  It's deflecting the issue anyways.

 

I'd easily take a player that can't finish fights but contributes damage or control over a player that constantly goes down and needs to be res'd. and then goes down again. You usually have a hard time contributing much when down. They are not equal because the former can at least run away lol. A player that downs a lot probably isn't finishing anyone off either! (Maybe necros)

 

A player that downs constantly is not just inefficient-- they actively hurt their group and I find that to be a toxic mechanic.

 

Is it really that hard to put on a little defensive stats or dodge occasionally?

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[kash.9213]

12 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I agree. I can res almost anyone I want in most fights and it is somewhat their fault they can't stop me.  I often run scrapper and am quite proud of it. But that's not what I'm talking about here.  It's deflecting the issue anyways.

 

I'd easily take a player that can't finish fights but contributes damage or control over a player that constantly goes down and needs to be res'd. and then goes down again. You usually have a hard time contributing much when down. They are not equal because the former can at least run away lol. A player that downs a lot probably isn't finishing anyone off either! (Maybe necros)

 

A player that downs constantly is not just inefficient-- they actively hurt their group and I find that to be a toxic mechanic.

 

 

That's still an issue with that player and more importantly an issue with you and your team. There's no need to scrap a good game mechanic because people can't be bothered to cover each other.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Just now, kash.9213 said:

That's still an issue with that player and more importantly an issue with you and your team. There's no need to scrap a good game mechanic because people can't be bothered to cover each other.

 

It is, but the issues are not equal.

 

Also I never said remove downstate did I? (which isn't happening, but not for reasons you described)

 

[kash.9213]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

It is, but the issues are not equal.

 

Also I never said remove downstate did I? (which isn't happening, but not for reasons you described)

 

You also didn't say what your point was so all I had to go on was what you were complaining about. I apologize if I got you wrong. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

You also didn't say what your point was so all I had to go on was what you were complaining about. I apologize if I got you wrong. 

 

I thought it was pretty clear:

 

Quote

There's too many players that think going down every 10s is much skill so  it's pretty refreshing to not have to deal with it for a week. Now if only they'd take this as a learning experience and not make excuses that'd be cool.

 

More of a commentary than anything else.

Edited June 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Zikory.6871]

On 6/24/2021 at 6:17 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

Nah, downstate gives even bigger edge to the bigger group, which is pretty stupid.

 

At this point, just make no downstate event occur every other week.

Literally every signal thing in the game mode gives a advantage to the bigger group. Everything. 

You're talking about competence. Smaller more coordinated groups can have a advantage over bigger less coordinated groups. Which is already the case with downstate. 2 groups of equal competence where one vastly outnumbers the other, no downstate is a disadvantage for the smaller group. 

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Literally every signal thing in the game mode gives a advantage to the bigger group. Everything. 

Yes, this is what numbers do. And this is why the downstate doesn't need to add on top of it.

 

Quote

You're talking about competence. Smaller more coordinated groups can have a advantage over bigger less coordinated groups. Which is already the case with downstate.

Yes, maybe if you consider the zerg to be absolute potatoes, as in being randoms that don't even form anything close to a squad/blob, but instead are just sort-of-kind-of in the same area and dgaf about each other. Thought we're comparing two sides that kind of know what to do, even if they make mistakes.

If we want to compare extremely differently "capable" groups then we can just show absolutely whatever we want, so I don't see much of a point in that.

 

Quote

2 groups of equal competence where one vastly outnumbers the other, no downstate is a disadvantage for the smaller group. 

lol, nope.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Zikory.6871]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, this is what numbers do. And this is why the downstate doesn't need to add on top of it.

 

Yes, maybe if you consider the zerg to be absolute potatoes, as in being randoms that don't even form anything close to a squad/blob, but instead are just sort-of-kind-of in the same area and dgaf about each other. Thought we're comparing two sides that kind of know what to do, even if they make mistakes.

If we want to compare extremely differently "capable" groups then we can just show absolutely whatever we want, so I don't see much of a point in that.

 

lol, nope.

 

 

How are they not? Everything 20 can do, 50 can do with 30 more people. What is the advantage smaller groups get that the bigger group doesn't also get? 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[Zyreva.1078]

55 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

How are they not? Everything 20 can do, 50 can do with 30 more people. What is the advantage smaller groups get that the bigger group doesn't also get? 

 

There is no innate advantage for smaller grps. The only way for smaller grps to win against superior numbers is to play better. And there are 2 reasons why downstate disproportionally favours the bigger side.

 

1. Aoe caps prevent effective punishment for ressing. The more players, the less dmg they take when they all stack on top of each other, which they automatically do when they res. Downstate invuln and huge down hp pool further add to the free dmg mitigation solely based on numbers.

2. Ressing with superior numbers takes no skill. There is no need for decent builds, mechanical skill, knowledge, cooldown management, whatever else that might set good players apart from bad ones. All they need to do is press one button. Even the worst players in the game can do it, so there is very little room for "outplay".

 

Yes, sometimes a smaller grp will get a successfull rez off and manages to turn the fight arround afterwards But this happens a lot more rarely than losing an outnumbered fight due to enemy downstates.

Edited June 25, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zikory.6871]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

There is no innate advantage for smaller grps. The only way for smaller grps to win against superior numbers is to play better. And there are 2 reasons why downstate disproportionally favours the bigger side.

 

1. Aoe caps prevent effective punishment for ressing. The more players, the less dmg they take when they all stack on top of each other, which they automatically do when they res. Downstate invuln and huge down hp pool further add to the free dmg mitigation solely based on numbers.

2. Ressing with superior numbers takes no skill. There is no need for decent builds, mechanical skill, knowledge, cooldown management, whatever else that might set good players apart from bad ones. All they need to do is press one button. Even the worst players in the game can do it, so there is very little room for "outplay".

 

Yes, sometimes a smaller grp will get a successfull rez off and manages to turn the fight arround afterwards But this happens a lot more rarely than losing an outnumbered fight due to enemy downstates.

So the premise is that a smaller group would have to play better to win, which is the same as with downstate. So what happens when the larger group plays better? 

1. Honestly, fair. But this is a issue that smaller group have to overcome with or without downstate. No downstate just promotes hit and runs and stealth hits as smaller groups can not sustain a much larger group. Target caps is a reason but increasing them just means the bigger group has increased caps too. Think back to the target cap nerfs to scourge, was great for smaller groups until they ran into a group with double the scourge...

2. "no skill" arbitrary nonsense. But you are correct that ressing with more numbers is easier, as is everything else in the game mode. More bodies, more signets, more IoLs. I still don't understand as the smaller group, how is full losing a player better then being able to rez them? 

That last bit, seems pretty subjective. I'd say my experience would be the other way around. Lets be real, your group isn't playing perfect. You can always get more damage on downs. Recomp, wake up, focus downs instead of padding the meter on a boon'd up blob. Managing downs is something you can adapt to, losing a player that has to run back is just a flat loss. 

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The only way for smaller grps to win against superior numbers is to play better. And there are 2 reasons why downstate disproportionally favours the bigger side.

Being beaten by superior numbers of "bad" enemies because they use downstate "better" than you is just a sign your side need more players.

 

In reality 25 man "better" groups already beat 50 man "bad" pug zerglings but sometimes I think the smaller groups dont want the challenge of fights anymore. What are you going to do when your 25 man can always instantly beat 70+ because they cant even win on their "disproportionally" favored numbers? Its not like they can bring much more in, maps have a cap. You expect them to suddenly "play better" in the next 10 minutes? Or do you expect them to still be there just to entertain you? No, they'll leave and then you can enjoy playing with yourself. Because heres the truth about fighting - its up to the smaller group to rise to the challenge, not the larger group to "be kind" and better match them.

 

And thats the lesson on how WvW continously feeds larger and larger scale battles and have survived for 9 years, kids.

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

How are they not? Everything 20 can do, 50 can do with 30 more people. What is the advantage smaller groups get that the bigger group doesn't also get? 

...did you just make a 180 about what you were saying? 

Because zergs "can do everything more", they get more "second chances" out of downstate after their misplays. Safety net for bad players hiding in zergs that otherwise could be easier peeled off.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Zikory.6871]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...did you just make a 180 about what you were saying? 

Because zergs "can do everything more", they get more "second chances" out of downstate after their misplays. Safety net for bad players hiding in zergs that otherwise could be easier peeled off.

I think I've been fairly consistent. Some 2nd chances are still better then no 2nd chances for smaller groups. 

 

Sounds like you just want to pick from safety with out having to confirm the down. Back to the downstate is to hard argument...smh

Edited June 26, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[Zyreva.1078]

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

So the premise is that a smaller group would have to play better to win, which is the same as with downstate. So what happens when the larger group plays better? 

 

They win. As they should. Downstate isn't going to safe the smaller grp (and it shouldn't).

 

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

2. "no skill" arbitrary nonsense. But you are correct that ressing with more numbers is easier, as is everything else in the game mode. More bodies, more signets, more IoLs.

Then why is ressing the only thing a lot of those players can do effectively? Why don't they use their superior dmg, cc, boons, healing, mitigation, etc. - all those things that the larger grp has more of - to not go down to begin with? Why does it sometimes take like 2-3 times as much effort to finish off downs than it takes to down them? (No, i'm not talking about stealth ganks or something like that).

 

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I still don't understand as the smaller group, how is full losing a player better then being able to rez them?

It is not better. Not having to deal with enemy downstate is better and decreases the likelihood that the smaller grp loses players. Idk how that's so hard to understand.

You seem to assume the outnumbered side inevitably loses players. But that doesn't have to be the case.

 

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

That last bit, seems pretty subjective. I'd say my experience would be the other way around. Lets be real, your group isn't playing perfect. You can always get more damage on downs. Recomp, wake up, focus downs instead of padding the meter on a boon'd up blob. Managing downs is something you can adapt to, losing a player that has to run back is just a flat loss. 

Your comments make me assume, you don't have much experience with heavily outnumbered fights.

And while it is ofc true that my grp isn't playing perfectly, there are limits to what a small grp can do and often the only way to "manage downstates" is to bring more players, because at a certain difference in numbers it becomes pretty much impossible to deal with.

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Being beaten by superior numbers of "bad" enemies because they use downstate "better" than you is just a sign your side need more players.

Thanks for confirming.

 

Quote

In reality 25 man "better" groups already beat 50 man "bad" pug zerglings but sometimes I think the smaller groups dont want the challenge of fights anymore. What are you going to do when your 25 man can always instantly beat 70+ because they cant even win on their "disproportionally" favored numbers? Its not like they can bring much more in, maps have a cap. You expect them to suddenly "play better" in the next 10 minutes? Or do you expect them to still be there just to entertain you? No, they'll leave and then you can enjoy playing with yourself.

Luckily i'm never playing in a grp anywhere close to 25 players, so my enemies not being able to outnumber me/us enough is not a concern i have to worry about.

 

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Because heres the truth about fighting - its up to the smaller group to rise to the challenge, not the larger group to "be kind" and better match them.

Nobody asks anyone to be "nice".

Edited June 26, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I think I've been fairly consistent. Some 2nd chances are still better then no 2nd chances for smaller groups. 

Consistent at avoiding what I wrote, maybe. "Some" is still less than the outnumbering group has, which is a way bigger safety net for their own mistakes.

 

Quote

Sounds like you just want to pick from safety with out having to confirm the down. Back to the downstate is to hard argument...smh

Ah, so this is what we're doing: sounds like you just want to sit in the middle of the zerg and in the event of failing keep getting picked up as if nothing happened at all. Back to the downstate gives an addidtional edge to bigger groups... smh

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Sobx.1758