My idea for nerfing scourge in barriers and making it in line:

[Axl.8924]

Move the blood bank trait into the  scourge area, and  force scourge to choose between 

 

Nerf the damage on the scourge weapon severely into the ground and put all that damage into 1 trait opposite line of the blood bank.

What this does:

It forces necros to choose between  condition damage on scourge, and barrier for support for all modes.

 

Exerp: If needed more changes, nerf barrier and or damage to be in line with SPVP/WVW/PVE/raids/fractals.

 

This prob won't work on reaper, since reapers get sustain from reaper shroud, unless they nerf reaper shroud's defense by 33% and put it into a trait for making nec less glassy in the reaper trait to make them choose between sustain and damage.

 

This i think would make us more easy to keep in line with other classes.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Axl.8924

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

"Scourge" weapon is the torch. You won't get much changes to damage trying to nerf/buff that one.
And it's trait is in minors, giving it 20% reduced cd and expertise, that is however totally independent on you using or not using the torch.

[Fueki.4753]

I don't like the idea of Shoving Blood Bank into Scourge.

 

Blood Bank needs to straight up deleted and be replaced with a Wells-improving trait.

If Vampiric Rituals was too strong, make a different one.

 

I can see it being a trait that simply increases the radiuses and durations of Wells,

while only increasing the durations in PvP and WvW.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Wintermute.5408]

Hey, as long as we get wells trait back, you can shove blood bank into death magic for all i care.

[Axl.8924]

58 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't like the idea of Shoving Blood Bank into Scourge.

 

Blood Bank needs to straight up deleted and be replaced with a Wells-improving trait.

If Vampiric Rituals was too strong, make a different one.

 

I can see it being a trait that simply increases the radiuses and durations of Wells,

while only increasing the durations in PvP and WvW.

 

Thats the thing though. Right now barrier is something that scourge is good for in raids and keeps em viable, and they would need suitable thing to make them deisreable.

 

If it means deleting blood bank and coming up with something that gives others barrier, but gives them less, allowing them to be a sorta glassy support, i'm all for it. Or at least find osmething else to keep them desireable in raid.

 

Scourge giving themselves vast amounts of barrier while doing it to others is super problematic, because it makes them too invincible in SPVP.

 

I also don't understand why ANET won't fix the issue with stacking. we have all been screaming at ANET for fixing ASAP the class stacking issue, which nec is something famous for, because class stacking with nec creates huge issues.

Its just like having druids give themselves huge amount of sustain while sustaining themselves in their form is problematic.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Fueki.4753]

25 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Thats the thing though. Right now barrier is something that scourge is good for in raids and keeps em viable, and they would need suitable thing to make them deisreable.

 

If it means deleting blood bank and coming up with something that gives others barrier, but gives them less, allowing them to be a sorta glassy support, i'm all for it. Or at least find osmething else to keep them desireable in raid.

 

Scourge giving themselves vast amounts of barrier while doing it to others is super problematic, because it makes them too invincible in SPVP.

 

I also don't understand why ANET won't fix the issue with stacking. we have all been screaming at ANET for fixing ASAP the class stacking issue, which nec is something famous for, because class stacking with nec creates huge issues.

How about they simply increase the output of Barrier in PvE via Scourge traits, instead of Blood Magic?

In PvP, it objectively requires the hard shave that can only be done by cutting out Blood Bank.

 

Looking at Snow Crows' Heal Scourge build, they don't even use Blood Bank, so cutting it out doesn't even hurt top-end content.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Axl.8924]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

How about they simply increase the output of Barrier in PvE via Scourge traits, instead of Blood Magic?

In PvP, it objectively requires the hard shave that can only be done by cutting out Blood Bank.

 

Thats what i'm trying to figure out. Most classes have to choose between good support or dmg, such as  tempest, but scourge being good a t both is fundamentally broken.

 

Yet i am also against nerfing its damage into the ground for the reason that i want scourge to choose between condi and support, thats why i wanted bloodbank in the scourge tree so it forces them to choose.

 

 

[Fueki.4753]

10 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Yet i am also against nerfing its damage into the ground for the reason that i want scourge to choose between condi and support, thats why i wanted bloodbank in the scourge tree so it forces them to choose.

Which trait would you replace with Blood Bank (or rather Sand Bank, as a hypothetical Scourge trait) though?

Harbinger Shroud may the most viable candidate, as it gives both Barrier (like what Sand Bank would do) and damage.

But that amount of Barrier is the same as the regular Desert Shroud, so Sand Bank in addition to Desert Shroud might be too much Barrier.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't like the idea of Shoving Blood Bank into Scourge.

 

Blood Bank needs to straight up deleted and be replaced with a Wells-improving trait.

If Vampiric Rituals was too strong, make a different one.

 

I can see it being a trait that simply increases the radiuses and durations of Wells,

while only increasing the durations in PvP and WvW.

 

While I agree that Blood bank need to change, I don't think a trait dedicated to wells would be a good idea.

 

Personally, I'd like them to replace bood bank by a trait that would proc "lesser Grim specter" upon entering shroud. This "lesser Grim specter" would only have one "tic" of the current Grim specter (which would be already strong enough in my opinion).

[Fueki.4753]

7 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

While I agree that Blood bank need to change, I don't think a trait dedicated to wells would be a good idea.

With all the AoE that's already being farted out in PvP, having a trait that increased the radiuses and durations of Wells wouldn't even turn out to be a minor deal.

And in PvE it might make life better for those who like to use Wells.

 

But returning Vampiric Rituals might indeed be a bad idea.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Axl.8924]

20 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Which trait would you replace with Blood Bank (or rather Sand Bank, as a hypothetical Scourge trait) though?

Harbinger Shroud may the most viable candidate, as it gives both Barrier (like what Sand Bank would do) and damage.

 

seeing as they have dmg on 1 line and condi corrupt on the other. Maybe they can replace harbringer shroud line or something and keep the one above as dps line and  in the final line.

 

It has to be the final line as its so powerful and you need to make the scourge choose between 2.

Having the other line would make scourge just too strong.

 

Dadnirs idea could work in theory IF you could heal enough the whole raid. Problem is what is barrier going to be? will it still exist?

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Obtena.7952]

Biggest elephant in the room: Scourge barriers need a nerf? Why does the choice between condi damage and barriers even need to exist?

 

There is some bad assumptions underlying this suggestion. Barriers isn't the only reason Scourge is desirable in team content ... and it's certainly not a reason to nerf it just to force a choice either. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Biggest elephant in the room: Scourge barriers need a nerf? Why does the choice between condi damage and barriers even need to exist? I mean ... Scourge isn't even that desirable for barriers to begin with so you are going to nerf it to force a choice? That's rather contrived. 

 

It's problematic as is, and its going to be nerfed eventually along with dmg.

 

At least this way, it forces scourges to choose between damage and support. At least this way they can be good supports but not good dps.

[Dadnir.5038]

24 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

With all the AoE that's already being farted out in PvP, having a trait that increased the radiuses and durations of Wells wouldn't even turn out to be a minor deal.

And in PvE it might make life better for those who like to use Wells.

 

But returning Vampiric Rituals might indeed be a bad idea.

 Nope, wells with longer duration and larger radius are bound to be complained upon in both PvP and WvW. Just look at Scourge nerf thread history if you don't believe it.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

It's problematic as is, and its going to be nerfed eventually along with dmg.

 

At least this way, it forces scourges to choose between damage and support. At least this way they can be good supports but not good dps.

Hold on ... how is it 'problematic' and in addition don't assume it will be nerfed along with damage. Put it this way, your suggestion won't prevent that. 

 

Again, Scourge NEEDS to be choosing between damage and support because why? The whole suggestion is based on forcing players to make this choice ... so you better have a good reason for why they need to make it. 

 

Even if you have a reason, the suggestion is pretty side ways ... Scourge doesn't get it's DPS from Torch to begin with and moving around traits like Blood Bank doesn't make sense either. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Fatherbliss.4701]

I still think they'd have to really redo the entire way that scourge operates in order to really balance it out. While I'm not a fan of just collapsing the Blood line there is a lot of truth to the fact that right now there scourge is way too easy to play. My one buddy this week was playing the scourge minion build in ranked one handed while eating. And winning. That is just plain goofy. Long time ago I had proposed an idea to have barrier cost health. Or have it be channeled. Sooo many arguments fly out the window when you stack multiple scourges up too.

[Axl.8924]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... how is it 'problematic' and in addition don't assume it will be nerfed along with damage. Put it this way, your suggestion won't prevent that. 

 

Again, Scourge NEEDS to be choosing between damage and support because why? The whole suggestion is based on forcing players to make this choice ... so you better have a good reason for why they need to make it.

 

Because choosing between damage and support is good for the game. Having both at the same time in increments is overpowered and crazy. This really shows as problematic in SPVP too if you have multiple scourges spamming barrier and keeping eachother alive while also throwing out so many boon corrupts and conditions. 

 

It also is showing to be problematic in PVE too.

 

If scourge is to be able to do condi, it should have to sacrifice its support. I don't understand why you have a problem with choosing between damage and support.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Fatherbliss.4701 said:

I still think they'd have to really redo the entire way that scourge operates in order to really balance it out. While I'm not a fan of just collapsing the Blood line there is a lot of truth to the fact that right now there scourge is way too easy to play. My one buddy this week was playing the scourge minion build in ranked one handed while eating. And winning. That is just plain goofy. Long time ago I had proposed an idea to have barrier cost health. Or have it be channeled. Sooo many arguments fly out the window when you stack multiple scourges up too.

That's because he was playing minions ... it has nothign to do with Scourge. Stacking multiple Scourges is already addressed because there is cap on how much barrier someone can have.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Because choosing between damage and support is good for the game. Having both at the same time in increments is overpowered and crazy.

Except it's not because having damage and support on a build isn't exceptional in this game. It's damage and support as a Scourge aren't even that amazing so the idea they are split up and nerfed is rather absurd. It's good for the game? That's pretty vague and doesn't even make sense. YOu know what is good for the game? We ALREADY have good and diverse options between our elite choices for necro. If anything, core is probably the biggest pain point because it's the laggard.

 

Scourge doesn't need a nerf just because you feel it's good for the game to make a greater differentiation between Scourge 'support' and 'condi DPS' build. The result of your suggestion is that Scourge won't be good for EITHER of those things.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except it's not because having damage and support on a build isn't exceptional in this game. It's damage and support as a Scourge aren't even that amazing so the idea they are split up and nerfed is rather absurd. It's good for the game? That's pretty vague and doesn't even make sense. YOu know what is good for the game? We ALREADY have good and diverse options between our elite choices for necro. If anything, core is probably the biggest pain point because it's the laggard.

 

Scourge doesn't need a nerf just because you feel it's good for the game to make a greater differentiation between Scourge 'support' and 'condi DPS' build. The result of your suggestion is that Scourge won't be good for EITHER of those things.

But you can still do damage just not have the same amount of barrier spam support with heals and the kinda damage it has, unless you want scourge to be nerfed down to 28k.

 

If damage stays as is it will get hit anyways and prob barriers touched too.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

But you can still do damage just not have the same amount of barrier spam support with heals and the kinda damage it has, unless you want scourge to be nerfed down to 28k

 

Yeah maybe ... it could be LOTS of different things ... but that doesn't change what I said right?

 

Honestly, I just don't see how increasing the differentiation between whatever arbitrary builds you are defining on Scourge is 'good' for the game. If I want to shift from DPS Scourge to barrier support Scourge ... I can ALREADY make those choices with the traits as they are. If there is ANYTHING to look at on Scourge ... it's not NOT-DPS and NOT-Barrier/Shade aspect of the traitline. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah maybe ... it could be LOTS of different things ... but that doesn't change what I said right?

 

Depends.

 

If you can get the amount of barrier and it breaks PVE and SPVP, then yes it matters.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Depends.

 

If you can get the amount of barrier and it breaks PVE and SPVP, then yes it matters.

OK so how are you defining 'broken' barriers in both? I mean, if barriers are broken in either of those things, then why is your solution to that so complicated? Just reduce the amount of barrier or it's HP cap. Done. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK so how are you defining 'broken' barriers in both?

 

Peeps complaining about scourge in SPVP spamming barrier on eachother keeping eachother alive and being able to down them with insane amount of condis.

 

In Pve i saw some complaints about how much barrier output in raids while also being able to get 37-40k, and barrier support is pretty useful now in raids.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Peeps complaining about scourge in SPVP spamming barrier on eachother keeping eachother alive and being able to down them with insane amount of condis.

 

In Pve i saw some complaints about how much barrier output in raids while also being able to get 37-40k, and barrier support is pretty useful now in raids.

Well, people complain about everything  ... so that isn't really meaningful measure of what needs to be nerfed or not. I'm not even sure those complaints are based on factual information or reflective of the typical encounter in the game. Scourge doing 37-40K DPS? Gangs of unbeatable Scourges in PVP? Maybe in the perfect storm that can happen, but it's not typical. That one time in band camp ... it's not a reason to change things. 

 

Multiple Scourges keeping themselves alive in PVP? Again, if that's a problem, the solution certainly isn't the complicated one you suggest.  Just reduce the amount of barrier or it's HP cap in PVP. Done.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952