Jump to content
  • Sign Up

My idea for nerfing scourge in barriers and making it in line:


Axl.8924

Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, Fatherbliss.4701 said:

Oh goodness. You are totally right of course. Clearly double blood scourge with sanc runes has no appreciable benefit from minions at all in certain forms of content! I'll see myself out and go re-think my entire life purpose.

Yeah you need to have a second look at what I said again. When you jump on the bandwagon to nerf Scourge because "minion Scourge is amazing even when played with one hand in ranked PVP" , it's evident you don't know what you are talking about. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
  • Like 3
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Delete Blood Bank. Full Stop.

 

Bring back Vampiric Rituals.

Introduce a new aura: Vampiric Aura. Vampiric Aura reduces condition duration by 10% and syphons health when struck, 1s CD per foe.

 

Instead of giving the Neco life stealing via wells it grants allies in the area of the well upon cast 5s of Vampiric Aura and 1s of protection per pulse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even before that patch went live, everyone with a brain knew that the blood bank buff would cause huge problems. I don't get how short sighted anet is more often than not.

 

The arrangement of scourge traits is good (one damage, one sustain, one utility in each tier). No need to mess that up. This is fine as it is and is the usual trait design for each elite spec!

 

The problem is only blood bank (the recent buff of it). This thread promotes what anet does wrong for years now. They add broken stuff but instead of adressing this, they nerf other things for compensation, because god forbid we can't revert things, because then we look like incompetent idiots. But this has never worked and will never work. (Exception: after some years have passed and nobody remembers the patch history they sometimes revert something like the dagger damage buffs for teef for example)

 

Edited by KrHome.1920
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Even before that patch went live, everyone with a brain knew that the blood bank buff would cause huge problems. I don't get how short sighted anet is more often than not.

 

The arrangement of scourge traits is good (one damage, one sustain, one utility in each tier). No need to mess that up. This is fine as it is and is the usual trait design for each elite spec!

 

The problem is only blood bank (the recent buff of it). This thread promotes what anet does wrong for years now. They add broken stuff but instead of adressing this, they nerf other things for compensation, because god forbid we can't revert things, because then we look like incompetent idiots. But this has never worked and will never work. (Exception: after some years have passed and nobody remembers the patch history they sometimes revert something like the dagger damage buffs for teef for example)

 


The problem is that bloodbank is troublesome because between interaction gives so much sustain while giving barrier combined with DMG, but i don't want scourges to not have the choice of saying: Il sacrifice my barriers and whatever i can give in support for ability to have competitive DPS.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:

So what exactly caused the call to make scrounge choose a path, lose too many times to them? If one class must choose between support and damage then all classes must, like SB that cleanse and heal then lock u down and hammer you.


Well no really. I don't want scourge to be nerfed either, but there is a good chance that if both are problematic, together, both will be nerfed hard, and scourge will be left in the dumpster.

 

Even if condi dps gets nerfed, that just means we have 1 less thing we can do at al.  Just imagine condi at 28 or 27k while everyone else is 37-40k, and you really REALLY want to be playing condi spec, that would just make us completely undesireable except for support maybe, and thats if they don't take away blood bank or something.

 

The best way is to overhaul how much barrier we can make by making us choose to be full support and have to go full support and or full dps.

 

I would love if we could give quickness to others or something too, but thats just nitpicking probably.

Edited by Axl.8924
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Even before that patch went live, everyone with a brain knew that the blood bank buff would cause huge problems. I don't get how short sighted anet is more often than not.

 

The arrangement of scourge traits is good (one damage, one sustain, one utility in each tier). No need to mess that up. This is fine as it is and is the usual trait design for each elite spec!

 

The problem is only blood bank (the recent buff of it). This thread promotes what anet does wrong for years now. They add broken stuff but instead of adressing this, they nerf other things for compensation, because god forbid we can't revert things, because then we look like incompetent idiots. But this has never worked and will never work. (Exception: after some years have passed and nobody remembers the patch history they sometimes revert something like the dagger damage buffs for teef for example)

 


The problem is what do we do, since support other than barrier and heals on scourge.


If barrier gets taken away, we are no longer desireable for support. Sure we can heal, but so can tempest and druid.

Edited by Axl.8924
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:


The problem is what do we do, since support other than barrier and heals on scourge.


If barrier gets taken away, we are no longer desireable for support. Sure we can heal, but so can tempest and druid.

If built for it, Scourge can pump out more than enough Barrier without Blood Bank.

Scourge doesn't need Blood bank in PvE and makes Scourge disgusting to fight everywhere else.

 

And that's the point, if you want a support Scourge should should need to build for it.

Scourge should not be able to comfortably build for Barrier and condition damage, like it currently does it PvP.

 

That other profession are too bloated is no reason Scourge needs to be too bloated as well.

If Anything, Arenanet should actively combat the bloat that is present on every profession (except Warrior and Elementalist, they have no/next-to-no bloat).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If built for it, Scourge can pump out more than enough Barrier without Blood Bank.

Scourge doesn't need Blood bank in PvE and makes Scourge disgusting to fight everywhere else.

 

And that's the point, if you want a support Scourge should should need to build for it.

Scourge should not be able to comfortably build for Barrier and condition damage, like it currently does it PvP.

 

That other profession are too bloated is no reason Scourge needs to be too bloated as well.

If Anything, Arenanet should actively combat the bloat that is present on every profession (except Warrior and Elementalist, they have no/next-to-no bloat).

 

I think its a mix of things:

Some classes posess too much, and others like tempest and necro have trouble fitting in the meta world for raids.

 

A good example:If guardians can throw out tons of boons and heal efficiently, why bring tempest? And some classes genuinely bring more useful stuff to raid, like quickness and other stuff.

 

 Tempest needs overhauled so that its auras can be desired and scourge either needs to keep barrier as potent as is, or needs to offer something else on top if its reduced to make it desireable.

 

We already have multiple classes who can do barriers, and scourge isn't that special if you take away its barriers, since firebrands too can condi corrupt, as can revenants.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

We already have multiple classes who can do barriers, and scourge isn't that special if you take away its barriers, since firebrands too can condi corrupt, as can revenants.

As far as Snow Crows is concerned, Blood Bank isn't even used in META raiding.

As far as I'm aware, Snow Crows is used as the standard for top end raiding,

so cutting out Blood Bank would not even scratch Scourge there.

However, PvP is objectively suffering from it.

Removing it will not have a single downside, but multiple potential upsides.

Edited by Fueki.4753
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

As far as Snow Crows is concerned, Blood Bank isn't even used in META raiding.

As far as I'm aware, Snow Crows is used as the standard for top end raiding,

so cutting out Blood Bank would not even scratch Scourge there.

 

BB isn't even a source of support, it's pure selfishness, The only reason it could end up on a build in meta PvE would be by default.

 

Quote

However, PvP is objectively suffering from it.

Removing it will not have a single downside, but multiple potential upsides.

 

PvP is suffering from many things, among these things, the slow reactivity of the balance team is at the top. Players had discarded BB when it was released because healing themselve before having health loss felt "wrong". When they buffed BB players were only starting to realize the broken potential of the trait and the complaints about it were only starting to appear in sPvP.

 

From discarded to the beginning of the complaints, there was a 1 year void during which I suspect they worked on this buff. The result is that the trait got a double boost on it's fame/infamy and ANet's devs just let it be. It prove that players can be slow when it come to exploiting OP stuff and that ANet's devs might be procrastinating on some balance point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scourge here, Carrion/Curses/Soul Reaping to be exact.

 

I don't keep up with the current events of PvE, but I feel comfortable enough to say (assuming equal skill levels) that if you can't kill a blood scourge in conquest, then you need more damage in your build. In SPvP, Scourge is already heavily nerfed compared to its PvE counterpart. Would be quite sad, but funny if some of those adjustments found their way into PvE. I may be doing it (conquest) wrong, but I haven't seen any support build that trumps damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why you want to mess up everything for only 1 trait who is only use in pvp ? Like, WTH dude ?

It's just amazing how in every game many pvpboy are just crybaby.

Play the game, that all.

Anet change the blance often so it probably gonna change one day.

I'm glad they don't read those forum.

  • Like 3
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:


Well no really. I don't want scourge to be nerfed either, but there is a good chance that if both are problematic, together, both will be nerfed hard, and scourge will be left in the dumpster.

 

Right ... so based on some bad assumption, you want to pre-emptively nerf Scourge with some complicated and not so well thought out ideas. /gg 

Edited by Obtena.7952
  • Like 3
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Specifically in PVE, why should scourge choose between damage and support again? It's a "healer", let's agree on that for a second. What do other healers bring together with their heals?

 

Druid brings spotter. It also buffs damage with spirits, condi cleanses, dispenses might and can dispense fury,  protection, stability and regen. I may be missing something, but whatever, that's not the point.

 

Heal tempest brings perma-might, fury, regeneration, protection. It's also off-meta.

 

Heal firebrand brings perma-quickness. We can stop there, really.

 

Heal renegade brings perma-alacrity and assassin's presence.

 

Heal scrapper brings perma-quickness, regen, protection and fury.

 

Now, what does "competitive healer choice" Scourge brings? Less than full might and random regen. That's it. Please don't start on wonderful team utility of reviving braindead people. It's historically useless. You better kitten be sure scourge is at least able to deal some damage alongside that amazing support it does.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Specifically in PVE, why should scourge choose between damage and support again? It's a "healer", let's agree on that for a second. What do other healers bring together with their heals?

 

Druid brings spotter. It also buffs damage with spirits, condi cleanses, dispenses might and can dispense fury,  protection, stability and regen. I may be missing something, but whatever, that's not the point.

 

Heal tempest brings perma-might, fury, regeneration, protection. It's also off-meta.

 

Heal firebrand brings perma-quickness. We can stop there, really.

 

Heal renegade brings perma-alacrity and assassin's presence.

 

Heal scrapper brings perma-quickness, regen, protection and fury.

 

Now, what does "competitive healer choice" Scourge brings? Less than full might and random regen. That's it. Please don't start on wonderful team utility of reviving braindead people. It's historically useless. You better kitten be sure scourge is at least able to deal some damage alongside that amazing support it does.

 

It brings barrier, which is desired in raids, even if admitedly its been used mostly in the past to carry bad players.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Specifically in PVE, why should scourge choose between damage and support again? It's a "healer", let's agree on that for a second. What do other healers bring together with their heals?

 

Druid brings spotter. It also buffs damage with spirits, condi cleanses, dispenses might and can dispense fury,  protection, stability and regen. I may be missing something, but whatever, that's not the point.

 

Heal tempest brings perma-might, fury, regeneration, protection. It's also off-meta.

 

Heal firebrand brings perma-quickness. We can stop there, really.

 

Heal renegade brings perma-alacrity and assassin's presence.

 

Heal scrapper brings perma-quickness, regen, protection and fury.

 

Now, what does "competitive healer choice" Scourge brings? Less than full might and random regen. That's it. Please don't start on wonderful team utility of reviving braindead people. It's historically useless. You better kitten be sure scourge is at least able to deal some damage alongside that amazing support it does.

 

You're not really accurate in what each heal bring thought...

 

Technically heal Scourge can bring perma regen (staff#2, dodge if BM), a nice amount of might (BiP, Dessicate, Ghastly breach, abrasive grit), barrier, life siphon, condi cleanse and have the possibility to add some amount of prot (spectral ring)/stab (trail of anguish).

- Pros of scourge is that barrier work well against hit that damage player based on a %age of health pool.

- Cons of scourge is that it doesn't actually heal the actual health pool that well.

 

Druid's main appeal was frost spirit and it's ability to fart might. Theoretically it can grant perma prot/vigor/regen/fury/swiftness and spotter. It can also cleanse.

- Pros: Frost spirit/spotter + might

- Cons: have difficulties to offer both boon and healing in an optimal fashion.

 

Tempest offer auras, healing, boons (might/vigor/regen/fury/swiftness/protection/stab) and cleanse.

- Pros: Lot of heal

- Cons: You gotta make a choice for the boons/cleanse you provide reducing a lot the list of boons.

 

Firebrand is liked for quickness, yes, but also for stab and aegis. If it had just quickness it wouldn't even enter the meta.

 

One of the main point of heal renegade alongside alacrity used to be soulcleave summit. It shouldn't be forgotten, it's basically what make it competitive against mirage.

 

Scrapper do not reliably provide fury by himself. It grant vigor, swiftness and excel at cleansing conditions thought.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Specifically in PVE, why should scourge choose between damage and support again? It's a "healer", let's agree on that for a second.

Well, we can agree .. but there isn't any evidence to suggest that's how the class is regarded by Anet. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to think about it that way if you want to talk about it's performance. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand how people can not see how gross scourge is right now (PvE perspective).

 

A friend of mine is a necro main and when we talk about recent balance changes, necro is mostly the topic. The amount of damage it does while doing huge amounts of self barrier (and also moderate amounts for the group) at the SAME TIME makes it really good. Now put in the fact that all your F skills are instant casts and 95% of your rotation can be used at 600-900 range (all skills except torch 4 and plaguelands, which has a high CD), burst is decent and the conditions are mostly long lasting. And now add the best AoE cleave in the game, in form of shades PLUS epidemic. How can you seriously want a high single target benchmark with this set?  In fractals it dominates the pug meta (I couldnt believe it myself when I checked the LFG yesterday since the patch hit in May) for CM's. In raids you outperform most classes, except on golem bosses like MO (where scourge is insane too).

 

The biggest problem is the torment change. The buff to soul barbs (perma 10% modifier) would have been enough. Now they will nerf all kinds of traits to put it in line like they did already with demonic lore. And since ANET can't accept their own mistakes very well, this show well go on for a while (more nerfs to basic skills until then). I mean how long did it take until they reverted the self shade on scourge and IP on chrono after removing that as tradeoffs? Or the nerfhammer to overheating as Holo when playing PBM?Yeah exactly, more than 1 year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

I don't understand how people can not see how gross scourge is right now (PvE perspective).

 

You don't understand how people can't see how gross scourge? But can you see how gross FB/scrapper are due to quickness, how gross mirage/chrono/renegade are due to alacrity, how gross ranger is due to spirits...?

 

You're shocked because it's a new entry within the end game, yet it's barely "meta" material, it's just at "casual safety net" level.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

You don't understand how people can't see how gross scourge? But can you see how gross FB/scrapper are due to quickness, how gross mirage/chrono/renegade are due to alacrity, how gross ranger is due to spirits...?

 

You're shocked because it's a new entry within the end game, yet it's barely "meta" material, it's just at "casual safety net" level.

 

Trust me I do. I don't like the state of the game right now. Balance is non existent and powercreep is at an alltime high. Renegade, firebrand and staff mirage are too strong with no downside. With them doing over the top damage while doing gods work in support for free, people look at this and (rightfully) think: wow why can't my class be this strong and versatile? Sadly with this mindset every class will end up with 40k dps (or some maybe wont) and the game gets so boring because there is no challenge left.

 

You know what I hate the most? That there is no real support needed anymore. Remember two good old chaos chronos? Compared to the state right now this kitten was actually balanced since they basically dealt no damage while playing inspiration and chaos.

 

Why is everything now giving perma boons with no investment or with almost no effort (f4 renegade for example)? Or the investment is so low that the damage they do is too high. You know what change I also don't understand? The limitations on boons and the removal of internal stacks. Absolutely no one wanted to achieve more boon uptime than necessary. This hits two 100% chronos for no reason. You get punished to do more boons. And you get rewarded for having basically no boon duration. Just spam all your low boon stacks since they keep getting stacked until 30 seconds, great. Anyway...

 

About scourge again. Barrier itself is also unbalanced like the boon support meta right now. Its too easy to stack on ten people even if you are a dps. And no its not just a casual safety anymore. Go play it in whatever content... Strikes raids, fractals and look how you perform while bringing all that utility. Or just watch videos. Just because other classes have higher benchmarks on a golem, doesnt meean they are better in the real fight. Literally everyone, who is worried about the state of the game or knows what he/she is doing, is saying that scourge is op just like fb and ren. Have some reasoning please, this spec is meta in every mode.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

 

 

Trust me I do. I don't like the state of the game right now. Balance is non existent and powercreep is at an alltime high. Renegade, firebrand and staff mirage are too strong with no downside. With them doing over the top damage while doing gods work in support for free, people look at this and (rightfully) think: wow why can't my class be this strong and versatile? Sadly with this mindset every class will end up with 40k dps (or some maybe wont) and the game gets so boring because there is no challenge left.

 

You know what I hate the most? That there is no real support needed anymore. Remember two good old chaos chronos? Compared to the state right now this kitten was actually balanced since they basically dealt no damage while playing inspiration and chaos.

 

Why is everything now giving perma boons with no investment or with almost no effort (f4 renegade for example)? Or the investment is so low that the damage they do is too high. You know what change I also don't understand? The limitations on boons and the removal of internal stacks. Absolutely no one wanted to achieve more boon uptime than necessary. This hits two 100% chronos for no reason. You get punished to do more boons. And you get rewarded for having basically no boon duration. Just spam all your low boon stacks since they keep getting stacked until 30 seconds, great. Anyway...

 

About scourge again. Barrier itself is also unbalanced like the boon support meta right now. Its too easy to stack on ten people even if you are a dps. And no its not just a casual safety anymore. Go play it in whatever content... Strikes raids, fractals and look how you perform while bringing all that utility. Or just watch videos. Just because other classes have higher benchmarks on a golem, doesnt meean they are better in the real fight. Literally everyone, who is worried about the state of the game or knows what he/she is doing, is saying that scourge is op just like fb and ren. Have some reasoning please, this spec is meta in every mode.

 

Personally nobody should be doing 40k i said this earlier, because its far too great damage.

 

It used to be ahuge gap in damage due to power creep, but at least necro wasn't part of the problem. but now we have classes doing 40+k which is insane.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Personally nobody should be doing 40k i said this earlier, because its far too great damage.

 

It used to be ahuge gap in damage due to power creep, but at least necro wasn't part of the problem. but now we have classes doing 40+k which is insane.

 

 

Yes precisely, the game isnt designed around such numbers.

 

But if people keep saying "my class does 36k damage now, its finally decent/average! but class xyz does 40k, so my class despite its utility and despite how easy it is to play, is not busted since there are classes with more dps!"

And with this mindset nothing will change. I could say its naive behavior but that would be rude I guess...

Edited by anbujackson.9564
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...