It's a pretty good time to play Revenant

[Dahkeus.8243]

8 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You are saying: it is one of the strongest elite specs in the game. 

And then u talk about wvw, pvp And raids. 

 

Imagine a player does not play wvw and pvp. The only thing u can do better than rene is raids with that spec. Not even sure about that due to alac or rene as dps which is also very good in raids. 

Renegade is better in everything in pve than herald if it comes not to raids. 

Power dps - Renegade 

Condi dps - Renegade 

Boon support - Renegade, except in raids, there herald

Sustain - Renegade 

Open world solo - Renegade 

Did I forget something? I dont know but - Renegade 

 

U see the difference? An elite spec should not be made if it is relevant in 1 pve content since anet cares mostly only about PvE. 

In wvw and pvp condi rene is also better than condi Herald. 

 

What you said was: power herald is better in wvw and pvp. Boon support herald is better in raids too. 

 

Whats with the other 10 content? 

And then u say that herald is one of the best elite specs in game. U must be kidding. 

 

There's *always* going to one build that's better for a specific situation.  That's the reality of every game.  There is no way for any game developer to make two *best* specializations.  It's inherently against the definition of *best*.

 

However, compare revenant to any other profession in the game and we have at least as much flexibility in builds if no more flexibility in builds for every game mode.

 

And for those roles you mentioned:

Power dps - Renegade 

 - Herald was designed as an elite spec that provides an array of boons more than just dealing damage.  Still, it's very close in power DPS. 

 

Condi dps - Renegade 

 - Renegade was specifically designed to be strong for condi.

 

Boon support - Renegade, except in raids, there herald

 - What else are you talking about for boon support?  In open world events, an array of herald boons is just as strong as just giving alac if not better, so the same strengths apply as they do for raids.  Fractals is the only content where Renegade is objectively better in all cases and that's pretty much because 5 person content restricts group flexibility.  This is why every class basically has at most one elite spec that is strong in fractals.

 

Sustain - Renegade 

 - Battle Scars is what makes revenant incredibly strong at sustain.  Renegade has some sustain from Kalla, but Herald still excels at sustain.  I present the following as proof:

 

Open world solo - Renegade 

Renegade open world is awesome, but the difference between Rene and Herald in open world is pretty minimal.  Battle scars makes both overpowered and both are far better than most other classes and elite specs in the game. 

 

The fact at the end of the day still stands:

Revenant has more viable builds, strong builds, and even meta builds available than just about any other class in the game and that applies to all areas of content (PvE, PvP, WvW, and everything in between). 

**Even** if you don't like PvP/WvW, that quality of life that we have with Revenant right now is still well above pretty much anything else out there. 

**Even** if you really just like Herald and don't care for Renegade, there are strong if not optimal options for pretty much everything in the game.

 

But if you're expectation is that you don't like anything about Revenant except for one elite spec and want it to be the *best* option for everything out there, you're of course going to be disappointed because that's not realistic in any sense.  At that point, you're basically looking for an excuse to be upset.

[Aeolus.3615]

Theres also:

Sword/shield  -   Herald/ventari  on clerics for WvW team support and make life slightly easy for FB's and scrappers, decen to call ventari tablet aoe heals on some who burned its healing skill or wants to save it when in small scale and while in coms.

Hammer -  Renegade/jalis  on divinity stats wich  is basicly a berzerker stats with high boon duration, tdlr: jalis with perma alacrity and high stability duration.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[SeTect.5918]

33 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

 

There's *always* going to one build that's better for a specific situation.  That's the reality of every game.  There is no way for any game developer to make two *best* specializations.  It's inherently against the definition of *best*.

 

However, compare revenant to any other profession in the game and we have at least as much flexibility in builds if no more flexibility in builds for every game mode.

 

And for those roles you mentioned:

Power dps - Renegade 

 - Herald was designed as an elite spec that provides an array of boons more than just dealing damage.  Still, it's very close in power DPS. 

 

Condi dps - Renegade 

 - Renegade was specifically designed to be strong for condi.

 

Boon support - Renegade, except in raids, there herald

 - What else are you talking about for boon support?  In open world events, an array of herald boons is just as strong as just giving alac if not better, so the same strengths apply as they do for raids.  Fractals is the only content where Renegade is objectively better in all cases and that's pretty much because 5 person content restricts group flexibility.  This is why every class basically has at most one elite spec that is strong in fractals.

 

Sustain - Renegade 

 - Battle Scars is what makes revenant incredibly strong at sustain.  Renegade has some sustain from Kalla, but Herald still excels at sustain.  I present the following as proof:

 

Open world solo - Renegade 

Renegade open world is awesome, but the difference between Rene and Herald in open world is pretty minimal.  Battle scars makes both overpowered and both are far better than most other classes and elite specs in the game. 

 

The fact at the end of the day still stands:

Revenant has more viable builds, strong builds, and even meta builds available than just about any other class in the game and that applies to all areas of content (PvE, PvP, WvW, and everything in between). 

**Even** if you don't like PvP/WvW, that quality of life that we have with Revenant right now is still well above pretty much anything else out there. 

**Even** if you really just like Herald and don't care for Renegade, there are strong if not optimal options for pretty much everything in the game.

 

But if you're expectation is that you don't like anything about Revenant except for one elite spec and want it to be the *best* option for everything out there, you're of course going to be disappointed because that's not realistic in any sense.  At that point, you're basically looking for an excuse to be upset.

Huh? You are showing me a weird 3k dps build of herald thats not usable as dps or sth, it even got nerfed few days ago. I never said that i only like Herald, that whole last part came out of something i never said. 

 

And yea there cant be 2 best dps classes and i never said this too. 

But making herald just relevant in raids and competitive modes is not the way. It should be relevant in more pve content. 

Also there was no reason to give alac to Renegade over herald same with mirage and chrono.

 

You are saying that herald is not made for power and condi dps and it is true. 

Herald is a spec for boon support, sustain and small heal. 

Renegade has more sustain and we all know that. 

Renegade has nonsense alac and perm protection what makes herald and rene overall same as boon support.

Renegade has group share heal skill and 600hp each second with life siphon on elite. 

 

Renegade even outperforms herald in the stuff that herald was made for and thats the point. 

 

I dont want 2 best specs or whatever u r saying, i want that herald is better than rene in what herald is made for. 

And that rene is better in the things that rene was made for. 

[Dahkeus.8243]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:20 AM, SeTect.5918 said:

Huh? You are showing me a weird 3k dps build of herald thats not usable as dps or sth, it even got nerfed few days ago. I never said that i only like Herald, that whole last part came out of something i never said. 

 

And yea there cant be 2 best dps classes and i never said this too. 

But making herald just relevant in raids and competitive modes is not the way. It should be relevant in more pve content. 

Also there was no reason to give alac to Renegade over herald same with mirage and chrono.

 

You are saying that herald is not made for power and condi dps and it is true. 

Herald is a spec for boon support, sustain and small heal. 

Renegade has more sustain and we all know that. 

Renegade has nonsense alac and perm protection what makes herald and rene overall same as boon support.

Renegade has group share heal skill and 600hp each second with life siphon on elite. 

 

Renegade even outperforms herald in the stuff that herald was made for and thats the point. 

 

I dont want 2 best specs or whatever u r saying, i want that herald is better than rene in what herald is made for. 

And that rene is better in the things that rene was made for. 

Your arguments are all over the place and completely missing the point of what this thread is all about.  No one is saying that balance is perfect.  No one is saying that the implementation of all elite specs perfectly matches how you interpret their "intended purpose" as if there is such a specific thing.

 

The thread is about how Revenant as a whole is in a very good place.  Both elite specs perform all areas of the game very well if not optimally.  This is still completely true if you ignore PvP and WvW.  Even your point arguing that Renegade outperforms Herald in all areas is not only untrue, but also irrelevant to the entire point of the thread.

 

Herald is strong at every aspect of the game that you mentioned with the exception of condi in PvE.

 

Power Renegade can do a max of 36k DPS while providing almost no utility:

 

 

Meanwhile, you can run Herald at about 3k DPS less while providing additional 100% fury, swiftness, protection, and additional boon duration:

So, what is there to complain about with Power DPS in PvE?  Herald does what a Renegade does for Power DPS with the sacrifice of a couple k DPS for support options that well exceed that.  Both builds can take Assassin's Presence for the loss of ~1k DPS.

 

For sustain, you seem dug in on Renegade being better in direct contradiction of evidence of the contrary.  Kalla's damage reduction (which was recently nerfed) is the only thing Renegade has that Herald doesn't.  At the same time, Herald has self healing while channeling, most mobile 100% protection, an objectively superior heal, and the ability to use a shield, which provides tools that Renegade doesn't have.    In either case, both have amazing sustain because of baseline traits in Devastation for battle scars.

 

And coming back to the original point, these are all benefits that most classes don't have.  Many classes have niche specializations that are nowhere near as good in all areas of the game.  This is just a reality of balance in MMOs.  Everyone wants their favorite build to be best or "meta", but all builds can't be at the top forever in all places.  What we have right now is pretty much as good as it gets from a macro perspective.  Eventually, something will get nerfed or another class will get something much better.  EoD's elite specs will almost certainly change everything up and the possibility of having all elite specs being good in even most areas of the game will be even less likely.

 

(Edit: Corrected mistype of PvP in a place where it should have been PvE)

 

(Edit2: Fixed link for second benchmark)

Edited June 26, 2021 by Dahkeus.8243

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous to list a 33k benchmark from Herald that had to abuse a bug with the targeting system of the game to get those numbers.  This was clearly bugged and never intended to be able to be achieved, much like Bell Holo, Bell Rev, etc., just not to as absurd a level as any of those.  Citing it as an example of a time when "Herald was strong and balanced" is absurd

"painful laugh..." as the above video opens with
This past patch it's still 32K with allies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k0NU5IYxg4

If you look at the log for Draconic Echo variant this patch:

• 8.445% comes from Elemental Blast (~2.3K DPS) ... this is 1.15 coefficient with burning and 12 cooldown , 3 pulses total 3.45 coefficient
• 5.52% comes from Burst of Strength (~1.5K DPS) ... this is a 25% modifier similar to Sic Em and has 1.25 coefficient with lower cooldown of 12s
• <2% comes from Chaotic Release (~500 DPS) ... this is 2.0 coefficient on 20 cooldown and has CC
• <1% comes from Facet of Nature Assassin (~250 DPS per player)

What's absurd is the idea is there can be a major improvement in DPS in its current state without completely overpowering core (retirbution has two 10% damage mods) / renegade. Let's say they make Elemental Blast doubled coefficient to roughly match Icerazor's 6.0 coefficient , it would still only net you +2.3K DPS. Darkrazor has a 1.38 total coefficient so Burst of Strength is not far behind.

I think the bias is strong here considering it is the revenant forum and not the herald forum. It seems people can only complain here when they have one of the strongest specs at their disposal. (lol at "I can hit higher DPS on weaver on the golem.") This is the same subforum that cried bloody murder when Unsuspecting Strikes was nerfed from  25% to 20% , an effective nerf of 1% since it only applies vs > 80% health. When can I play power mirage , condi spellbreaker, or power scourge in PVE by the way?

Edited June 25, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[SeTect.5918]

4 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Your arguments are all over the place and completely missing the point of what this thread is all about.  No one is saying that balance is perfect.  No one is saying that the implementation of all elite specs perfectly matches how you interpret their "intended purpose" as if there is such a specific thing.

 

The thread is about how Revenant as a whole is in a very good place.  Both elite specs perform all areas of the game very well if not optimally.  This is still completely true if you ignore PvP and WvW.  Even your point arguing that Renegade outperforms Herald in all areas is not only untrue, but also irrelevant to the entire point of the thread.

 

Herald is strong at every aspect of the game that you mentioned with the exception of condi in PvE.

 

Power Renegade can do a max of 36k DPS while providing almost no utility:

 

 

Meanwhile, you can run Herald at about 3k DPS less while providing additional 100% fury, swiftness, protection, and additional boon duration:

 

So, what is there to complain about with Power DPS in PvE?  Herald does what a Renegade does for Power DPS with the sacrifice of a couple k DPS for support options that well exceed that.  Both builds can take Assassin's Presence for the loss of ~1k DPS.

 

For sustain, you seem dug in on Renegade being better in direct contradiction of evidence of the contrary.  Kalla's damage reduction (which was recently nerfed) is the only thing Renegade has that Herald doesn't.  At the same time, Herald has self healing while channeling, most mobile 100% protection, an objectively superior heal, and the ability to use a shield, which provides tools that Renegade doesn't have.    In either case, both have amazing sustain because of baseline traits in Devastation for battle scars.

 

And coming back to the original point, these are all benefits that most classes don't have.  Many classes have niche specializations that are nowhere near as good in all areas of the game.  This is just a reality of balance in MMOs.  Everyone wants their favorite build to be best or "meta", but all builds can't be at the top forever in all places.  What we have right now is pretty much as good as it gets from a macro perspective.  Eventually, something will get nerfed or another class will get something much better.  EoD's elite specs will almost certainly change everything up and the possibility of having all elite specs being good in even most areas of the game will be even less likely.

 

(Edit: Corrected mistype of PvP in a place where it should have been PvE)

I just read your first part and was like: oh no pls m8.

So I just clicked the video and didnt read the part under and have to say: this videos are of 12th may 2021, serious? there was nerfs that hit herald more than renegade after may 12 so that videos are not even on the current state of revenant, so pls dont link videos that r not even of the current state.

Example:
condi - renegade uses shortbow + mace x axe and herald uses just mace x axe as condi, the devastation nerf of a nerf of off hand weapon from 5 to 2,5 so ofc thats a bigger nerf for herald then.

And some more talking about revenant before patch notes after 12th may....rly?

I know you cant talk about snowcrows benchmarks all the time but its more relevant than youtube because everyone on youtube does different numbers.
So as you can see on snowcrows the difference is faaaaaar more then 3k. And if you say now: uuuuh but you use 1 trait for boon support!
Yes it does, but you said:
 

 

4 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Meanwhile, you can run Herald at about 3k DPS less while providing additional 100% fury, swiftness, protection, and additional boon duration:

 

Without draconic echo you wont run your lovely 100% boons uptimes.
Also Renegade can grant 100% protection without losing a lot of dps as power by using all for one.
So u wanna tell me fury and swiftness r rly important? pls no. They r literally everywhere and granted by every class.

Yea Herald is strong in every gamemode that i mentioned. But Renegade is stronger and thats the whole point. Thats not balance lmao.

Also the torment change of may 11 increased the renegade dmg more than herald as condi. lets say 30k + 50% = 45k
20k + 50% = 30k
So a 15k buff for rene and 10k for herald. That numbers are not the real ones and are just mentioned to make the point clear.
Renegade gets buffed more than herald in every update. And then they notice that they overbuffed renegade and nerf core and buff a bit of renegade spec. Like lmao.

They even said on may 11 update that renegade will overperform with torment change so they change some skills that do torment. Then they nerfed mace, axe and demon.
Because why would they actual nerf renegade so shortbow instead of killing condi herald right?
Well okay they didnt really kill condi herald but u might get what i mean.
They always say: oh renegade buff, oh it overperforms now, lets nerf core so herald.

Same with battle scars nerf but i dont think u saw that nerf since u still talk about may 12 benchmarks lol.

Edited June 25, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"painful laugh..." as the above video opens with
This past patch it's still 32K with allies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k0NU5IYxg4

If you look at the log for Draconic Echo variant this patch:

• 8.445% comes from Elemental Blast (~2.3K DPS) ... this is 1.15 coefficient with burning and 12 cooldown , 3 pulses total 3.45 coefficient
• 5.52% comes from Burst of Strength (~1.5K DPS) ... this is a 25% modifier similar to Sic Em and has 1.25 coefficient with lower cooldown of 12s
• <2% comes from Chaotic Release (~500 DPS) ... this is 2.0 coefficient on 20 cooldown and has CC
• <1% comes from Facet of Nature Assassin (~250 DPS per player)

What's absurd is the idea is there can be a major improvement in DPS in its current state without completely overpowering core (retirbution has two 10% damage mods) / renegade. Let's say they make Elemental Blast doubled coefficient to roughly match Icerazor's 6.0 coefficient , it would still only net you +2.3K DPS. Darkrazor has a 1.38 total coefficient so Burst of Strength is not far behind.

I think the bias is strong here considering it is the revenant forum and not the herald forum. It seems people can only complain here when they have one of the strongest specs at their disposal. (lol at "I can hit higher DPS on weaver on the golem.") This is the same subforum that cried bloody murder when Unsuspecting Strikes was nerfed from  25% to 20% , an effective nerf of 1% since it only applies vs > 80% health. When can I play power mirage , condi spellbreaker, or power scourge in PVE by the way?

Lmaooo now you post an outdated video from 6 months ago that doesn’t include any of the damage nerfs since May 10th and follow up patches. I’m sorry but that proves nothing.  So no, it’s not “this past patch” please don’t actively present misleading information to try to prove your point 

 

here’s the most up to date version of power herald 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Infusion.7149]

15 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Lmaooo now you post an outdated video from 6 months ago that doesn’t include any of the damage nerfs since May 10th and follow up patches. I’m sorry but that proves nothing.  So no, it’s not “this past patch” please don’t actively present misleading information to try to prove your point 

 

here’s the most up to date version of power herald 

 

 

Every number I have listed is from the video you linked.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"painful laugh..." as the above video opens with
This past patch it's still 32K with allies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k0NU5IYxg4

This video you listed is from 6 months ago. Please click it again 

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This video you listed is from 6 months ago. Please click it again 

The video YOU linked. Reading comprehension.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The video YOU linked. Reading comprehension.

And I was responding to the video YOU linked. I was not responding to your numbers below it as can be seen by the fact I didn’t respond to any of the nitty gritty power coefficient dialogue I don’t care to engage in with you since it's irrelevant to the point I was making

Edited June 25, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Dahkeus.8243]

23 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I just read your first part and was like: oh no pls m8.

So I just clicked the video and didnt read the part under and have to say: this videos are of 12th may 2021, serious? there was nerfs that hit herald more than renegade after may 12 so that videos are not even on the current state of revenant, so pls dont link videos that r not even of the current state.

Example:
condi - renegade uses shortbow + mace x axe and herald uses just mace x axe as condi, the devastation nerf of a nerf of off hand weapon from 5 to 2,5 so ofc thats a bigger nerf for herald then.

And some more talking about revenant before patch notes after 12th may....rly?

I know you cant talk about snowcrows benchmarks all the time but its more relevant than youtube because everyone on youtube does different numbers.
So as you can see on snowcrows the difference is faaaaaar more then 3k. And if you say now: uuuuh but you use 1 trait for boon support!
Yes it does, but you said:
 

 

Without draconic echo you wont run your lovely 100% boons uptimes.
Also Renegade can grant 100% protection without losing a lot of dps as power by using all for one.
So u wanna tell me fury and swiftness r rly important? pls no. They r literally everywhere and granted by every class.

Yea Herald is strong in every gamemode that i mentioned. But Renegade is stronger and thats the whole point. Thats not balance lmao.

Also the torment change of may 11 increased the renegade dmg more than herald as condi. lets say 30k + 50% = 45k
20k + 50% = 30k
So a 15k buff for rene and 10k for herald. That numbers are not the real ones and are just mentioned to make the point clear.
Renegade gets buffed more than herald in every update. And then they notice that they overbuffed renegade and nerf core and buff a bit of renegade spec. Like lmao.

They even said on may 11 update that renegade will overperform with torment change so they change some skills that do torment. Then they nerfed mace, axe and demon.
Because why would they actual nerf renegade so shortbow instead of killing condi herald right?
Well okay they didnt really kill condi herald but u might get what i mean.
They always say: oh renegade buff, oh it overperforms now, lets nerf core so herald.

Same with battle scars nerf but i dont think u saw that nerf since u still talk about may 12 benchmarks lol.

 

Couple things:

 

1) I apparently linked the same vid twice.  Here is the Herald benchmark that is 3k off Renegade:

 

Yes, it doesn't run Draconic Echos and doesn't have absolutely 100% uptime on certain boons as explained in the vid's description, but its still more boons than Renegade Power and also gives boon duration increase.  Renegade can make a small DPS sacrifice to provide a lot of protection, but it's not exactly 100% in zerk gear either and is even less if the group needs to move.

 

2) The balance patches since May 11th haven't made that much of a difference for power herald.  The changes affecting Power Herald vs Power Ren:
Ferocious Aggression - Life Steal damage increased - helps both builds since they both have passive life steal effects (battle scars, Shiro Facet, Kalla's Fervor)

Destructive Impulse - Increase dmg not just on strike helps both builds

Unsuspecting Strikes nerf - affects both builds\

 

None of these changes make much of a difference that particularly favor Renegade over Herald.  The DPS difference if there was to be an apples to apples benchmark today would not be exactly 3k, but it wouldn't be much different.

 

3) Changes to condi make no difference in comparing Power Ren to Power Herald.  Yes, Renegade is the vastly superior condi elite spec in PvE, hands down. 

 

[Telgum.6071]

On 6/24/2021 at 9:46 PM, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Besides why play core rev/herald if renerade exists?

I don't know man, perhaps because people play what they want and enjoy rather what the forum/reddit moaners say? So pro and so high level and still ignoring the main reason of playing a videogame.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

23 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

 

Couple things:

 

1) I apparently linked the same vid twice.  Here is the Herald benchmark that is 3k off Renegade:

 

Yes, it doesn't run Draconic Echos and doesn't have absolutely 100% uptime on certain boons as explained in the vid's description, but its still more boons than Renegade Power and also gives boon duration increase.  Renegade can make a small DPS sacrifice to provide a lot of protection, but it's not exactly 100% in zerk gear either and is even less if the group needs to move.

 

2) The balance patches since May 11th haven't made that much of a difference for power herald.  The changes affecting Power Herald vs Power Ren:
Ferocious Aggression - Life Steal damage increased - helps both builds since they both have passive life steal effects (battle scars, Shiro Facet, Kalla's Fervor)

Destructive Impulse - Increase dmg not just on strike helps both builds

Unsuspecting Strikes nerf - affects both builds\

 

None of these changes make much of a difference that particularly favor Renegade over Herald.  The DPS difference if there was to be an apples to apples benchmark today would not be exactly 3k, but it wouldn't be much different.

 

3) Changes to condi make no difference in comparing Power Ren to Power Herald.  Yes, Renegade is the vastly superior condi elite spec in PvE, hands down. 

 

The video is out of date and was before all of the nerfs and he benched with All Boons which inflates the DPS by about 5%. 
 

You also missed the June 8th 2.5% damage nerf to Destructive Impulses in your analysis 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/96659-game-update-notes-june-8-2021/?tab=comments#comment-1383207

 

if benched today with the recent nerfs and using realistic boons you’re looking at an 8.5% damage loss overall with a 30k damage ceiling compared to the video posted.  As a Power Build that has no appreciable burst compared to its competition, 30k isn’t good at all. It functions more like a Condi Build (sustain damage) than a Power Build and doesn’t have any of the benefits of the higher sustained damage Condi builds bring. 

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

Fun fact that I've seen a bunch of people here without math skills mess up, even with draconic echo herald only does about 70% uptime on fury and protection, and about 5-12 stacks of might depending on the point in the rotation. No regeneration unless using a different rotation which sacrifices fury and/or protection uptime. So this amazing boon support is perma 1 boon, then decent uptimes on 2 other boons including the might + about 10% on average for all the boons from the rest of the builds that supply boons. This is with reference draconic echo, if you want perma those 3boons you need a decent amount of diviners gear and you still won't get 25 group might. The reason why the boons end up being perma is because they are common, and most other builds will tend to generate at least a few boons on their own without really thinking about it, herald boons aren't all that special.

[ArthurDent.9538]

5 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Fun fact that I've seen a bunch of people here without math skills mess up, even with draconic echo herald only does about 70% uptime on fury and protection, and about 5-12 stacks of might depending on the point in the rotation. No regeneration unless using a different rotation which sacrifices fury and/or protection uptime. So this amazing boon support is perma 1 boon + decent uptimes on 2 other boons + a few stacks of might to help an actual might stacking build + about 10% on average for all the boons from the rest of the builds that supply boons. If you want perma those 3 boons you need not only draconic echo but a decent amount of diviners gear and you still won't get 25 group might. The reason why the boons end up being perma is because they are common, and most other builds will tend to generate at least a few boons on their own without really thinking about it, herald boons aren't all that special hell diviners renegade just needs to run pack runes and you have comparable uptimes on fury, more might, decent swiftness and more protection albeit for 5 man instead of 10 in addition to perma 10 man alac. Infact any support can run pack runes and get decent group fury + swiftness + a few might stacks in addition to all of their other support but why bother when there's so many other ways to get these boons.

 

[Dahkeus.8243]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The video is out of date and was before all of the nerfs and he benched with All Boons which inflates the DPS by about 5%. 
 

You also missed the June 8th 2.5% damage nerf to Destructive Impulses in your analysis 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/96659-game-update-notes-june-8-2021/?tab=comments#comment-1383207

 

if benched today with the recent nerfs and using realistic boons you’re looking at an 8.5% damage loss overall with a 30k damage ceiling compared to the video posted.  As a Power Build that has no appreciable burst compared to its competition, 30k isn’t good at all. It functions more like a Condi Build (sustain damage) than a Power Build and doesn’t have any of the benefits of the higher sustained damage Condi builds bring. 

 

Destructive impulse nerf doesn't matter.  It's the same nerf to power rene as it is to power herald since they both use offhand weapons.  Both benchmark vids were before this so it's completely irrelevant.

 

You're making some serious mountains out of mole hills.

 

Yes, number of boons will scale herald.  Benchmarks run with all boons.  Nothing new here.

 

Nit pick all you want, but regardless of the trees you're getting caught up on, the forest is still the same:  Herald does viable power damage that's just a bit off of Renegade, but brings additional boons/boon duration that renegade doesn't have.  It's not perfect for all groups, but it's a good build that does decent damage and there's no reason you can't play herald in any PvE content.

[SeTect.5918]

36 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Destructive impulse nerf doesn't matter.  It's the same nerf to power rene as it is to power herald since they both use offhand weapons.  Both benchmark vids were before this so it's completely irrelevant.

 

You're making some serious mountains out of mole hills.

 

Yes, number of boons will scale herald.  Benchmarks run with all boons.  Nothing new here.

 

Nit pick all you want, but regardless of the trees you're getting caught up on, the forest is still the same:  Herald does viable power damage that's just a bit off of Renegade, but brings additional boons/boon duration that renegade doesn't have.  It's not perfect for all groups, but it's a good build that does decent damage and there's no reason you can't play herald in any PvE content.

Yea its just a bit off of renegade dmg, are just like min. 6k lmao. 

Of course you can play it and none said that u cant, but if u play it in group content except raids people will look at u and say: huh, wtf is ur role?

This even happened to me.

There was a buff of kallas force that made the core nerfs irrelevant for renegade. So the core nerfs do matter. 

Also u say that herald gives additional boons that renegade do not give. 

So that is, regeneration, ~¾fury, halfbaked might and swiftness. 

Protection is also granted by renegade by all for one without losing a lot dmg. 

Renegade also gives alac.

 

Would you choose like 12-13 might stacks, swiftness, nonperm fury and regeneration or alac with +6k dps? 

Alac is a rare boon and if you play in a group there will be always perm fury, mostly 20+ might, perm swiftness and solid regeneration already. But not alac. 

[Dahkeus.8243]

4 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Yea its just a bit off of renegade dmg, are just like min. 6k lmao. 

Of course you can play it and none said that u cant, but if u play it in group content except raids people will look at u and say: huh, wtf is ur role?

This even happened to me.

There was a buff of kallas force that made the core nerfs irrelevant for renegade. So the core nerfs do matter. 

Also u say that herald gives additional boons that renegade do not give. 

So that is, regeneration, ~¾fury, halfbaked might and swiftness. 

Protection is also granted by renegade by all for one without losing a lot dmg. 

Renegade also gives alac.

 

Would you choose like 12-13 might stacks, swiftness, nonperm fury and regeneration or alac with +6k dps? 

Alac is a rare boon and if you play in a group there will be always perm fury, mostly 20+ might, perm swiftness and solid regeneration already. But not alac. 

This was linked in the very first post.  Teapot has already spoken to all of this stuff.  This build is why Herald is on par at S tier with Renegade in his tier list of raid carry (also linked below).  People tend to blindly follow SnowCrows and base their hierarchy of classes blindly off of class benchmarks on golems instead of what actually makes the group better.  Nothing new there.

 

 

 

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

50 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Destructive impulse nerf doesn't matter.  It's the same nerf to power rene as it is to power herald since they both use offhand weapons.  Both benchmark vids were before this so it's completely irrelevant.

 

You're making some serious mountains out of mole hills.

 

Yes, number of boons will scale herald.  Benchmarks run with all boons.  Nothing new here.

 

Nit pick all you want, but regardless of the trees you're getting caught up on, the forest is still the same:  Herald does viable power damage that's just a bit off of Renegade, but brings additional boons/boon duration that renegade doesn't have.  It's not perfect for all groups, but it's a good build that does decent damage and there's no reason you can't play herald in any PvE content.

Benchmarks are not run with all boons for builds with traits like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reinforced_Potency because it isn't realistic, to have perma all boons. Resistance in particular is very rare and aegis is finicky at best hence why virtues guard gets a very important asterisk next to its benchmark. You can pretty much always count on might, fury, quick, alac, regen, and swiftness are basically a given in most groups, the remaining 6 are hit of miss depending on the comp and encounter. Notice that benchmarks don't use Pinpoint Distribution or Assassin's Presence while they do use Empower Allies and Spotter, there is a reason for that though it is a bit outdated and only still used to enable comparisons with old bench marks.

 

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O09gKDOvA0

[SeTect.5918]

28 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

This was linked in the very first post.  Teapot has already spoken to all of this stuff.  This build is why Herald is on par at S tier with Renegade in his tier list of raid carry (also linked below).  People tend to blindly follow SnowCrows and base their hierarchy of classes blindly off of class benchmarks on golems instead of what actually makes the group better.  Nothing new there.

 

 

 

 

I am not blindly following snowcrows if u mean me, otherwise i wouldve said 9k. 

 

Not to mention you blindly follow teapot all the time. 

Ah and by the way. So Renegade is on par with Herald in raids huh...and Renegade outperforms Herald in every other mode, wouldnt the problem be obvious?

 

You talk about raids all the time because it is the only thing you can argue with. Thats not your fault, thats just because Renegade is that overpowered compared to Herald. Renegade just outperforms Herald in everything else.

 

You also shouldnt make your decisions out of youtubers, they r also just human and are wrong sometimes. 

Mukluk said that he likes the torment and resistance nerf in wvw because he often dies to revenants.

Condi Revenant is dead in wvw now, the resistance was the only thing keeping it alive that much from conditions. 

There are 95% power and 5% condi revenants in wvw now.

Renegade still has shortbow. 

Condi Herald running stupidly behind the enemies with pure melee while chasing ranged classes while not being able to manage conditions. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Dahkeus.8243]

54 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Not to mention you blindly follow teapot all the time. 

 

 

NO U!

 

Seriously, yall don't even know what your arguing against except that you want to nit pick anything about my posts you don't like without actually making an actual argument.  I'm not going to waste anymore of my day for trolls that are sitting around all day to reply salt within minutes of anything I say. 

 

Rev is in a good place and both heralds and revs have good, solid builds in all game modes (well, Fractals is Ren territory).  There's not much to it than that.

[lodjur.1284]

6 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You also shouldnt make your decisions out of youtubers, they r also just human and are wrong sometimes. 

Agreed

Quote

Mukluk said that he likes the torment and resistance nerf in wvw because he often dies to revenants

No idea who that is

Quote

Condi Revenant is dead in wvw now, the resistance was the only thing keeping it alive that much from conditions. 

No. Condi Rev/Ren is arguably stronger after the changes, just harder to play

 

Herald ofc.got nerfed but it got nerfed in mostly the right spots (glint heal still needs to be looked at and true nature - demon at the very least needs a bugfix and radius nerf)

 

As someone who mains core condi and condi Renegade in WvW the resistance/torment changes were mostly buffs.

 

Specifically when solo it's a bit of a nerf, but once you're 2+ people it feels about the same and at 3+ it feels stronger than before.

 

Massively increased cleave dmg and more damage to CCed targets and no more enemy resistance/retal (which hurt Condi Rev arguably the moat of any build) are all buffs that can't be overstated. 

 

However Condi Rev was already just mediocre solo and only really shined in 2+, due to it's design, so it doesn't really matter. It got stronger in the situations the build makes sense.

Quote

There are 95% power and 5% condi revenants in wvw now.

Yep. Because there was never any condi revs or rens in WvW only condi heralds.

 

Basically all the condi heralds disappeared because the do nothing but spam pain abso then 1 shot with a transfer playatyle now carries a bit of risk.

 

None of them played condi herald because they enjoyed condi rev they all played it due to it being very easy to play and very broken, even oppressive in any kind of smallacale.

 

Turns out noone played condi rev due to the oh so broken trailblazer or busted tormenting Runes. Almost all of them played Herald to be carried by high uptime invulnerability. 

 

Good riddance.

 

For groups doing smallscale/outnumbered fights Condi Renegade is arguably the best damage build in the game and condi core rev not that far behind (tankier but lower dmg, mostly due to no shortbow)

Quote

Condi Herald running stupidly behind the enemies with pure melee while chasing ranged classes while not being able to manage conditions. 

If one can't manage conditions on condi HERALD while decent players can easily manage condis on core/Renegade that seems like a pretty big l2p issue. Since Herald got the best condi management out of the 3, Condi Ren the worst of the 3 (cause no staff or shield or demon f2) and condi management on Condi Ren is really top tier.

Edited June 27, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I hate to be "that guy" but I'm going to press "X" to doubt on the herald roamer build.  Actually, I'm going to press a whole bunch of keys.  I recently decided to take it into WvW, and holy hell is this thing nerfed into the ground.  I remember it being strong back when I last played it, but now playing my toon feels like she just had her appendix removed.  In a single night I have consistently lost the 1v1 against every profession... except warrior because I don't see those roaming anymore.

 

#1: They gutted Retribution (as well as most of the traits), which was my super secret weapon in build design.  Before it provided a mixture of offensive and defensive traits that were widely applicable and had multiple uses.  Now everything is so conditional and awkward.  For instance, they have a trait that gives 3 seconds of weakness on crowd control.  I call this awkward, because I don't need to feeble the attacks of an enemy who's currently a jade pillar and will remain one for the entire duration of weakness.  With poor weakness alternatives and limited CC access, the trait is basically "do 10% more damage after jade pillar."  I now know why everyone runs devastation.

 

#2:  The damage was gutted and is now oddly placed.  There's two good damage skills on the weapons now, Deathstrike and Frigid Blitz.  That's it.  They're mutually exclusive, too.  Nothing on staff does good damage, the Hammer is too slow and clunky to hit anybody.  Sword 2 and Sword 3 do less damage than the auto attack.  Sword 4 is mediocre damage, except the windup is so long that you'll be CC'd before ever firing it off.  Right now, all of the weapon skills are there to scare the opponent into blowing his defensive cooldowns before you get to the real DPS skills, which are consumed facets.

 

I'm not joking.  I can't find the exact numbers for it, but True Nature - Assassin hits about as hard as Shackling Wave.  Elemental Blast is the hardest hitting skill, and if it is for individual hits Burst of Strength follows right behind in third place.  I had to look up some guides to figure this out, but the DPS rotations are all "Stun the enemy, then BURN ALL THE FACETS YOU CAN!"  I can't use the upkeeps, either, because everything costs so much energy that I can't afford to use an upkeep and any of the need-to-survive utility skills at the same time.  One Riposting Shadows and I can't even use sword skills anymore.  BTW the wiki is wrong about impossible odds:  It costs 8 initiative in WvW.

 

#3: What they've done to the boons is outright criminal.  See, I just came from playing around with Sword Weaver, who can cap might and maintain permanent regen, swiftness, fury, and protection with almost no investment.  Before that I played Scrapper, who also gives itself tons of might, quickness, regeneration, fury, and also protection on demand.  Before that I played Power Mirage, and while short lived it did give itself plenty of might, fury, vigor, aegis, and regeneration.  So somebody tell me why it is that, on a specialization that was supposed to be focused around boons that everyone has boons BUT HERALD!?  Just look at the durations of these boons:

 

Unrelenting Assault: 3 seconds of might.  Pretty useless on a glorified evade skill that lasts 1.5 seconds and does less damage than an auto attack.  Seriously, it gives you just enough might to taunt you over how it won't last long enough to do another attack.

Chilling Isolation:  1 second of chill is not enough to either chase down or run from an enemy.  Besides it only works if you caught up to the enemy.

Shackling Wave: 1 Second of immobilize on an aftercast that long is just enough to let your opponent know they were hit by shackling wave.  The vulnerability is good, though.  Too bad there's no damaging skills to take advantage of the extremely short immobilize.

Facet of Darkness:  3 seconds of fury pulsing every 3 seconds.  So, it goes away once you need to do anything else other than sit on it.

Facet of Strength: 6 seconds of might pulsing every 3 seconds.  This comes to a total of... 2 stacks of might.  Utterly insignificant.  Most classes stack more might than that by accident.

Facet of Elements: 3 seconds of swiftness.  You're basically immobile if you don't have this up, which sucks because this is your damage skill.

Facet of Chaos: 2 seconds of protection.  It is quite literally inept, and the noise pollution makes this objectively the most offensive skill in the game.

Elder's Respite:  3 seconds of regeneration every 10 seconds.  Utterly useless, because proccing regen at 50% health means you're getting beat down hard, and slowly gaining health at that point is worthless.  Other professions that get regen have it on night permanently.

Shared Empowerment:  Might for 4 seconds, shared every 3 seconds while in Glint.  So, you get an additional 1.33 stacks of might, but only half the time. 

Reinforced Potency:  60 concentration.  Show me one fight where 60 concentration was the difference between survival and defeat, and I'll hack my ear off and mail it to you.  This does NOTHING!

Notoriety:  1 stack of might for 5 seconds when using a utility skill.  So, 2 stack from Shiro and 2 stacks from Herald before this drops off the face of the earth.  Got it.

 

And so on.  I can go on for longer, but that's the gist of it.  With one exception (fury) all boons are given for short durations tied to high energy costs/cooldowns.  With one exception (vulnerability) all conditions have such low durations that they do nothing at all.  An astute observe might notice that I left Incensed Response off of the above list.  That is the only might generation skill that is mediocre.  It's not great.  It is just mediocre.  It gives out 2 might for 4 seconds upon gaining fury, and luckily there's some fury spam in the build.  So, if you combine all of these skills and traits together and blow all of your skills at once, you'll get maybe 15 might for 3 seconds after the damage burst.   That's all before you're forced to swap to staff and run away for 20 seconds because everything is on cooldown.

 

 

I'm getting fairly tired now, so I'll just sum up the rest.  The Herald has been nerfed in such a way that it has low damage, no way to buff itself meaningfully, no downed play, no good sustained damage, no good sustain, no ranged play, terrible defenses, terrible condition management, long telegraphs that are easily dodged or interrupted, and a series of traits so pivotal that the entire class has been nerfed around them.  Herald wasn't "balanced," it was deliberately killed off in competitive modes.  The only thing it can do now is run around in a zerg with full diviner gear, because 100% boon duration is the only way to make the boons actually matter.  This has made me consider running power mirage again, because at least I could warp around confusing newbs while I feebly flopped around the map.  

Edited June 27, 2021 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[SeTect.5918]

2 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Agreed

No idea who that is

No. Condi Rev/Ren is arguably stronger after the changes, just harder to play

 

Herald ofc.got nerfed but it got nerfed in mostly the right spots (glint heal still needs to be looked at and true nature - demon at the very least needs a bugfix and radius nerf)

 

As someone who mains core condi and condi Renegade in WvW the resistance/torment changes were mostly buffs.

 

Specifically when solo it's a bit of a nerf, but once you're 2+ people it feels about the same and at 3+ it feels stronger than before.

 

Massively increased cleave dmg and more damage to CCed targets and no more enemy resistance/retal (which hurt Condi Rev arguably the moat of any build) are all buffs that can't be overstated. 

 

However Condi Rev was already just mediocre solo and only really shined in 2+, due to it's design, so it doesn't really matter. It got stronger in the situations the build makes sense.

Yep. Because there was never any condi revs or rens in WvW only condi heralds.

 

Basically all the condi heralds disappeared because the do nothing but spam pain abso then 1 shot with a transfer playatyle now carries a bit of risk.

 

None of them played condi herald because they enjoyed condi rev they all played it due to it being very easy to play and very broken, even oppressive in any kind of smallacale.

 

Turns out noone played condi rev due to the oh so broken trailblazer or busted tormenting Runes. Almost all of them played Herald to be carried by high uptime invulnerability. 

 

Good riddance.

 

For groups doing smallscale/outnumbered fights Condi Renegade is arguably the best damage build in the game and condi core rev not that far behind (tankier but lower dmg, mostly due to no shortbow)

If one can't manage conditions on condi HERALD while decent players can easily manage condis on core/Renegade that seems like a pretty big l2p issue. Since Herald got the best condi management out of the 3, Condi Ren the worst of the 3 (cause no staff or shield or demon f2) and condi management on Condi Ren is really top tier.

You are talking about group play in wvw, yea its true because i did not mention that i mostly mean soloing, because Herald has low amount of immo or whatever so the torment change is a nerf in solo playing. In group play its totally different as you already mentioned yea.

Its not a l2p issue at all. Tell me which condition remove skills Herald has. I mean mainly against ranged classes obviously. Of course the condition managing works against other melee classes. However here we go:

Corruption has a condition transfer with a low radius on legend swap, so basically useless against ranged classes.
Retribution has no condition remove.
Salvation has no condition remove.
Invocation removes 1 condition on legend swap.
Devastation has 1 immob remove on movement skills.
Herald can transfer 2 (3 with trait) conditions on true nature demon on a range of 600. transfer maybe useful and maybe useless against range classes, depending on how far they r atm. The cleanse even works without being close to an enemy.

However the only condition removes you have are on legend swap and if you play condi herald. The condition removes on legend swap are not even big. So your are 10 seconds vulnerable after legend swap except on demon herald, there its min. 5 seconds.
Renegade has more cc options and its ranged so can manage conditions of melee classes better. Condition managing was faaaar better before may 11 patch due to resistance.
Why glint heal needs a rework? Because damage turns into health for 3 seconds? Warrior has exactly the same skills but with 1 second more uptime. And demon true nature needs a lower radius? Really? You wanna fully kill condi Herald against range classes? The only thing you can go with then is cleansing sigil (i already use it) and thats not even part of the class so yea it has bad condition managing, at least against range classes. And even that triggers on legend swap so u will still be vulnerable for 10 seconds for conditions without mentioning true nature demon.
But i agree with the part that herald has one of the better condition managing of revenant class, but in overall its still trash after may 11 update. And against range classes its always a hard fight. Against melee its easy tho.