For the love of thief. Nerf daredevil!

[frareanselm.1925]

21 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

odd?

 

name a game where the hardest to play classes are the best performing ones?.

 

Because WoW most certainly isnt.. BM Hunter ( a rotation which can be macro'd to the wheel of ur mouse for optimal performance ) Was the best class in the game for 8.3 (1 year of content)

 

Rift, i remember strong Harbinger being stronger then pyro even tho pyro was multiple times harder with harbinger being a Random cleave roll.

 

FFXIV is certainly not either

 

the issues you highlight. have nothing to do with its Difficulty.

 

"performing barely as high as other classes while lacking CC and utility" is the problem the class suffers, as i stated in my post Elementalist needs buffs because its in a bad position currently.. not because of the difficulty that goes into playing the class.

 

are you new to games?

 

Anything but the top 2% of builds are Unviable... we boot people based on this stuff daily, and Gatekeep players from content because of this stuff all the time.. please learn how the players treat things.. either its BiS. or its Bad. thats the player perception of gaming.

 

no in no MMORPG currently on the market does the "hardest classes" Consistently perform the best im afraid. the reason Difficulty is different per proffession is to increase the accessibility, not to base rewards on.

 

your argument screechs to me make Elementalist easier to play  in all honesty. if its above the vast majorities ability to play.. or brings this sorta mentality.. its too hard and needs fundamentally making easier to play.

 

mmorpgs are about accessibility, not skill and PvE is DEFINTLY not about skill but the Social aspect of doing content with friends. Opinons relating to class Difficulty is a opinon not a fact lol, pklenty of people will tell u Weaver is Easy. if u go onto the Forums.. Someones Playing power Weaver BY THEIR NOSE CLICKING THE KEYS LOL.

 

i boosted ele as my very first character, i am a Elementalist.. and i can do 30k DPS With condi weaver within a very short period of time of learning it.. Im sorry.. but its a Repeating rotation, its not difficult. its muscle memory. weaver is just unforgiving to being new to the build.

 

your saying weavers Underpowered.. and your right, it needs buffs. i aint saying weavers Fine. what im saying is the problem with weaver is in the second half of your post and nothing to do with its difficulty lol, no one said Weaver dont need buffing what im saying is.. no MMORPG Dev in their right mind would

 

and Wildstar has nothing to do with it?

 

Wildstar LITTERALLY promoted the mentality your putting forward right now.. it died BECAUSE OF THAT MENTALITY...

The dificulty of weaver is not learning a rotation and releasing in front of your piñata boss.

The dificulty is remembering visually where it was located the skill you need when you face a concrete enemy class in pvp, or somebody pulled 10 mobs in a dungeon. The dificulty is situational, depending the circumstances you've to navigate into the 4 tabs to find the one you need, and if you fail the atunement is in cooldown and you're dead...

Talking of pvp whos the easiest pepew to play? again thief and reaper. And the most dificult in pvp, weaver again.. its not a coincidence.

Edited June 29, 2021 by frareanselm.1925

[Zacchary.6183]

6 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

The dificulty of weaver is not learning a rotation and releasing in front of your piñata boss.

The dificulty is remembering visually where it was located the skill you need when you face a concrete enemy class in pvp, or somebody pulled 10 mobs in a dungeon. The dificulty is situational, depending the circumstances you've to navigate into the 4 tabs to find the one you need, and if you fail the atunement is in cooldown and you're dead...

Talking of pvp whos the easiest pepew to play? again thief and reaper. And the most dificult in pvp, weaver again.. its not a coincidence.

reddit .webm related

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:22 PM, Pati.2438 said:

actually buff thiefs damage

 

How? 

 

On 6/27/2021 at 10:21 AM, Pati.2438 said:

@Dan.2940 No i don't playing this class on a "pro" lvl if you mean that. But as I said before if you don't want to get it nerfed in mobility ways you also shouldn't cry for a damage buff. Simply cause that will never happen .... not before it get some decent nerfs in ways of mobiliy or something like that.

 

I see.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[reddie.5861]

On 6/23/2021 at 1:17 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

I don't think it should be deleted as such. 

 

But something should happen, daredevil is basically a must have in almost all content. And it kinda means whatever thief gets just gets outclassed by it. 

 

Thief's kit needs moving around a bit so daredevil isnt so dominate. Currently it's a concern if the next elite will even matter realistically comparitively 

 

Either they need to alter core thief and deadeye to make them more competitive with daredevil or maybe give thief as a whole 3 dodges and daredevils steal and maybe leave daredevil with the dodge effects.

 

Maybe both need to happen as it feels pretty boring with daredevil being the answer to everything. 

why its must have u should ask your self..

we dont have much choices anymore lately do we?
Acro < nerfed to the bone useless trait now (unless ur s/d but u still have to take useless traits)
then we have critical strikes, well ye if u wanna give up on pretty much everything i guess..

so whats left over to choose from is deadlyarts and SA

trickery is pretty much a must have.

then u can either go core deadlyarts/SA/Trick
or DrD SA or deadlyarts and trick

Deadeye is just w/e useless class.

 

i dont know about PvE but i doubt its much different..

if anything changes u need to give thief perma stuff from trickery line, i mean they increased ini cost on some skills alot without trickery ur insta out of ini, thats equal to other class being dazed for next few seconds.

 

 

edit, why is D A sensored? >.<

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by reddie.5861

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Its things like weakness on dodge, stacking -30% dmg reduction on top of 3x 600 range dodge. Ofc daredevil is op as fk and anyone who says it isnt is very biasd indeed.

 

Edit: not to mention 1 of the traits that gives -10% dmg reduction also gives vitality bonus so you can skip maraueder and go more  berserker stats 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Fat Disgrace.4275

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

9 hours ago, Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

Its things like weakness on dodge, stacking -30% dmg reduction on top of 3x 600 range dodge. Ofc daredevil is op as fk and anyone who says it isnt is very biasd indeed.

 

Edit: not to mention 1 of the traits that gives -10% dmg reduction also gives vitality bonus so you can skip maraueder and go more  berserker stats 

Thief's damage is garbage even w/ zerker rune. The 10% dmg reduction is strictly melee.

[Puck.3697]

12 hours ago, reddie.5861 said:

why its must have u should ask your self..

we dont have much choices anymore lately do we?
Acro < nerfed to the bone useless trait now (unless ur s/d but u still have to take useless traits)
then we have critical strikes, well ye if u wanna give up on pretty much everything i guess..

so whats left over to choose from is deadlyarts and SA

trickery is pretty much a must have.

then u can either go core deadlyarts/SA/Trick
or DrD SA or deadlyarts and trick

Deadeye is just w/e useless class.

 

i dont know about PvE but i doubt its much different..

if anything changes u need to give thief perma stuff from trickery line, i mean they increased ini cost on some skills alot without trickery ur insta out of ini, thats equal to other class being dazed for next few seconds.

 

 

edit, why is D A sensored? >.<

 

 

This is what I mean tho. We need more builds this means core thief and Deadeye need to bring things to the table worth the trade off of not being daredevil. 

 

Imho just outright nerfing daredevil isn't the answer. 

 

I think it's a series of changes that need to happen realistically

 

Imho I think you are pretty on the head with how thief traits are currently. I also think to a degree thief's weapon kits. 

 

I think some stuff does need shaking up with thief realistically. Not much changes around the builds for it. 

 

I don't think deadeyes the problem upmost. I think a large problem is

 

In PvP it conflicts with thief's role. 

In PvE ranged weapons are just rarely favoured in raids/fractals. In DPS builds atleast. 

 

That and creating a mechanic about being stationary in a game that demands mobility seems whack to me

 

Deadeye could be really cool. But for it to be used in more content they need to create something. 

 

Although overall Deadeye can opt out via not using rifle. But imho deadeyes susposed to be the big boy power DPS.. but it doesn't seem to live uptoo that. Outside a Condi build they nerfed into the floor 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

This is what I mean tho. We need more builds this means core thief and Deadeye need to bring things to the table worth the trade off of not being daredevil. 

 

Imho just outright nerfing daredevil isn't the answer. 

 

I think it's a series of changes that need to happen realistically

 

Imho I think you are pretty on the head with how thief traits are currently. I also think to a degree thief's weapon kits. 

 

I think some stuff does need shaking up with thief realistically. Not much changes around the builds for it. 

 

I don't think deadeyes the problem upmost. I think a large problem is

 

In PvP it conflicts with thief's role. 

In PvE ranged weapons are just rarely favoured in raids/fractals. In DPS builds atleast. 

 

That and creating a mechanic about being stationary in a game that demands mobility seems whack to me

 

Deadeye could be really cool. But for it to be used in more content they need to create something. 

 

Although overall Deadeye can opt out via not using rifle. But imho deadeyes susposed to be the big boy power DPS.. but it doesn't seem to live uptoo that. Outside a Condi build they nerfed into the floor 

 

 

Regardless of people thinking of DE as the Stealth Elite, I'd rather have more utility and tactile improvements to Kneel and Rifle auto. I really enjoy playing DE and it's the Elite on my main build right now, but I'll have to switch to my DrD template when I know there's a guild with a tight composition prowling around or a large fight in SMC or something. Drd is far more forgiving, especially defensively and is consistent with it's offense since it doesn't conflict much with it's defense. 

 

I don't need Shadow Meld on my DE but I do want to use my Kneel skills more often, preferably with a mode that allows slow crouch movement, and Rifle auto more fluidly. Currently, DE performs well but there's a threshold of pressure or a plateau in performance where I need to change builds. 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

11 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Thief's damage is garbage even w/ zerker rune. The 10% dmg reduction is strictly melee.

Ere, yeah... no. Ok vs bunker crap or tanky stuff but what doesn't? 

[Puck.3697]

12 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Regardless of people thinking of DE as the Stealth Elite, I'd rather have more utility and tactile improvements to Kneel and Rifle auto. I really enjoy playing DE and it's the Elite on my main build right now, but I'll have to switch to my DrD template when I know there's a guild with a tight composition prowling around or a large fight in SMC or something. Drd is far more forgiving, especially defensively and is consistent with it's offense since it doesn't conflict much with it's defense. 

 

I don't need Shadow Meld on my DE but I do want to use my Kneel skills more often, preferably with a mode that allows slow crouch movement, and Rifle auto more fluidly. Currently, DE performs well but there's a threshold of pressure or a plateau in performance where I need to change builds. 

 

I agree I'd rly like to see Deadeye become stronger realistically. It's cool idea Anet just need to refine it abit more. 

 

[Crackmonster.2790]

They did it to mirage, now they should do it to daredevil. ^^

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

They did it to mirage, now they should do it to daredevil. ^^

 

wut? Lol, mirage has SOOOO much more things it can do which daredevil cant.. how do u even come to this comparison realistically?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Honestly, they'd be better off nerfing D/P by removing the blind on shadow shot. That alone would make other thief builds far more viable. 

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Honestly, they'd be better off nerfing D/P by removing the blind on shadow shot. That alone would make other thief builds far more viable. 

They won't do that until the entire Thief Class is gutted, because they keep nerfing based on the tears from anti-thief Care Bears who can't tell the different between D/P and everything else. 

 

At this point, the opinions of anti-thieves should be discarded without consideration, considering it's all the same "wah, thief beat me, OP, nerf" just in different flavors of L2P.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

20 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Honestly, they'd be better off nerfing D/P by removing the blind on shadow shot. That alone would make other thief builds far more viable. 

It doesn't even have to be completely removed. Just transitioned into the 2nd hit instead of the bullet portion of the skill.

[Crackmonster.2790]

On 7/6/2021 at 1:22 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

wut? Lol, mirage has SOOOO much more things it can do which daredevil cant.. how do u even come to this comparison realistically?

Mirage is working around dodge, and they removed half the dodge. See the similarities between arguments of how daredevil cant loose it coz its so core to it?

I was a mirage back then and my heart still bleed, its time to spread the suffering to another specc - that will totally make me feel better!

[MrForz.1953]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:09 PM, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

At this point, the opinions of anti-thieves should be discarded without consideration, considering it's all the same "wah, thief beat me, OP, nerf" just in different flavors of L2P.

 

Yes. Do behave like the very persons you despise. 👍

[Zacchary.6183]

7 hours ago, MrForz.1953 said:

 

Yes. Do behave like the very persons you despise. 👍

In order to make emotional people listen, you must appeal to their emotions. ;^)

[Crab Fear.1624]

12 hours ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

Mirage is working around dodge, and they removed half the dodge. See the similarities between arguments of how daredevil cant loose it coz its so core to it?

I was a mirage back then and my heart still bleed, its time to spread the suffering to another specc - that will totally make me feel better!

Mirage has plenty plenty plenty of evades and invulns

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

20 hours ago, MrForz.1953 said:

 

Yes. Do behave like the very persons you despise. 👍

I will, thanks. Every single anti-thief thread is a poorly disguised "delete the thief class". Literally every single suggestion they make would effectively remove thief from WvW and sPvP. And the kicker, when thief players dare to ask about what the Thief should get in compensation, they get nasty and declare thief doesn't need any buffs, or compensation.

 

So please tell me why these players deserve to be taken seriously? I have some respect at least for the players who openly admit they just want the class deleted, because at least they're honest, and not pretending to care about "game balance". 

 

Also your contempt is noted, and I don't care. Just like the people who want to delete one of my favorite classes.  🙂

Edited July 9, 2021 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[MrForz.1953]

1 hour ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

I will, thanks. Every single anti-thief thread is a poorly disguised "delete the thief class". Literally every single suggestion they make would effectively remove thief from WvW and sPvP. And the kicker, when thief players dare to ask about what the Thief should get in compensation, they get nasty and declare thief doesn't need any buffs, or compensation.

 

They, they, they they they. Don't start building strawmen now, of course many of the complainers would vent and lead crusades about whatever spanked them lately but it's not just a Thief thing, they lash out on at least one build of every single other class: The heat on Mesmers hasn't fully dissipated still,  and Trapper Dragonhunter, OWP Rapidfire Soulbeasts, Condi Renegade, Tanky Weavers, Engineers and Scourge as a whole and Mach 2 Spellbreakers all need to be "deleted" if you hear the complaints.

 

1 hour ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

So please tell me why these players deserve to be taken seriously? I have some respect at least for the players who openly admit they just want the class deleted, because at least they're honest, and not pretending to care about "game balance". 

 

 Also your contempt is noted, and I don't care. Just like the people who want to delete one of my favorite classes.  🙂

 

This is the issue right there. You're dealing with highly emotional and passionate players just like you are. You don't want to even think about the points they might have once in a while and in turn you don't want to behave decently and attempt to push them into thinking and concluding that they're wrong, it's always worth a shot.

 

Instead you just attack eachother, I'm pretty sure you enjoy it at this point, and by doing so you too lose credibility and could even contribute towards worsening your favorite class; because if Anet ever listens, they will take matters into their own hands, with perhaps questionable results, rather than siding either with the plague or cholera.

Edited July 9, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[DeceiverX.8361]

Nerfing Daredevil on some levels (not like OP suggested) is a hard requirement to be able to buff the rest of the class.

It's the same issue D/P has had since 2012.

The thing is, they don't EVER buff the offensive lines.

 

Honestly the evasion wouldn't be that big of a deal if the traitline didn't have better damage modifier access than most of the offensive-oriented lines as minor traits or side-effect bonuses.  Numerically defenses are better than other defensive lines too, like Acro.  SA has a similar problem.

 

ANet's overstacked the defensive lines (again) with offensive capabilities on a class that only succeeds because of its defensive playstyle and ability to control fights which it's been balanced around.  It's boring and has no diversity.

 

The predicament is whether or not ANet would actually buff core when nerfing DrD.  In the past, I'd always had the train of thought they would.  At this point the balance efforts are so few and far between I'm jaded enough to think they wouldn't.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I'm a warrior main, but I like playing thief a lot. 

 

I don't rly enjoy Daredevil. I prefer core builds or deadeye rifle more. Sometimes stupid builds I come up with, other times by refining my skills on meta ones. 

 

The only problem I have with thief when being one is that I wish more trait lines allowed for some survivability. I feel like shadow arts can be avoided, but trickery cannot since it buffs steal so much. On the other hand acrobatics are kinda of a joke (defense on warriors be like, minus the adrenal health to a degree which thieves don't have). Also, I feel like deadly arts could provide some minor healing too. Always struck me how the poison life steal was on trickery and not on deadly arts. If it was there as a major + mug (shared on allies maybe) , perhaps we could see better sustain on thief and more team oriented builds without rly needing to spec into trickery. 

 

When fighting thieves what disturbs me is how many means of ranged CC they have, which can also blind you. As a warrior blinds can really shut me down but when combined with interrupts, the need for resistance (obsolete Zerker stance) and stability (may sacrifice cleanses) take away a lot of my kiting potential with skills. 

 

Its a tradeoff ik, but for the supposedly super mobile warrior, it could be better. 

 

Anyway that's my general opinion on this. Daredevil shouldn't be nerfed too hard, as in skills should be refined and traits be reworked. We shall see if anets does any balance prior to EoD since we have like half a year ahead of us. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

i wonder if grouch is watching this thread or a dev can comment -all other specs even core is outclassed by daredevil and I, personally, want to hear from a dev if were getting anywhere...are we heard? 😞

[Crab Fear.1624]

This is warrior mains complains.

 

Daredevil is fine, maybe war needs some buffs?

 

I see Vaans in video struggle to win against a guard....wtf lol...

 

Maybe war is weak?