Ranger feels decrepit, outdated and abandoned.

[Caeledh.5437]

I've always felt that ranger didn't feel very ranger.

 

It's basically a fighter with a pet. And most players most of the time use the exact same one, the bear. Cos that's the best tank. Boring.

 

More nature magic would be nice. The spirits are thematically great but not super functional outside of big group content. And weapon wise there's only the 1 and 2 attacks for staff in the damage department.

 

Oh of course Soulbeast has the nice leafy animation.... but you have to sacrifice your pet to get that. Pass.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Caeledh.5437

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The explanation given by the chart creator is damage/cast time from damage log.
Rapid fire does more damage (not DPS) overall because it hits more times , is used more often, and has lower cooldown.

 

This is why GW terms make no sense to me compared to every other definition.  

 

That chart for all intents and purposes is a chart showing what skills 'burst' the highest, which of course are mostly single hit skills like frost trap and worldly impact.  

 

But they label it 'DPS' which usually determines how much damage is done over a prolonged period of time, not 'damage in a single second'.  Because DPS = 'damage in a single second' falls apart immediately with something like OWP, you don't use that with burst skills like worldly impact because it only hits once, and even if it doubles the damage you do from that one instance it won't match to a channeled skill like rapid fire. 

 

Regardless, the fact that PBS is even on the list for a high ranking burst is absurd, and likely the reason they just made all CC's 0 damage in competitive modes as they are literally appearing on 'DPS' charts when they are emergency CC skills.   Having those skills do damage just muddies the water even more then it obviously already is.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

I've always felt that ranger didn't feel very ranger.

 

It's basically a fighter with a pet. And most players most of the time use the exact same one, the bear. Cos that's the best tank. Boring.

 

More nature magic would be nice. The spirits are thematically great but not super functional outside of big group content. And weapon wise there's only the 1 and 2 attacks for staff in the damage department.

 

Oh of course Soulbeast has the nice leafy animation.... but you have to sacrifice your pet to get that. Pass.

 

I mean, Druid literally is about as 'nature' as you get.  Every staff skill is nature themed, it has a ton of literal root abilities (ancient seeds being the most notable) and you can turn into a literal nature spirit every 10s or so.  

 

I'd agree Soulbeast lost that theme completely, it was purely about player complaints and their inability to fix pets.  So that's why the green cloud, because it's the only 'nature' theme they could muster with the merging thing (aside from the stance animations).  

[Infusion.7149]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

This is why GW terms make no sense to me compared to every other definition.  

 

That chart for all intents and purposes is a chart showing what skills 'burst' the highest, which of course are mostly single hit skills like frost trap and worldly impact.  

 

But they label it 'DPS' which usually determines how much damage is done over a prolonged period of time, not 'damage in a single second'.  Because DPS = 'damage in a single second' falls apart immediately with something like OWP, you don't use that with burst skills like worldly impact because it only hits once, and even if it doubles the damage you do from that one instance it won't match to a channeled skill like rapid fire. 

 

Regardless, the fact that PBS is even on the list for a high ranking burst is absurd, and likely the reason they just made all CC's 0 damage in competitive modes as they are literally appearing on 'DPS' charts when they are emergency CC skills.   Having those skills do damage just muddies the water even more then it obviously already is.  

Frost trap pulses but doesn't have a channel time ; Point blank shot is relevant in fractals to get exposed on the boss not just damage.

[bigo.9037]

I think it’s important to specify which game modes we are discussing as both pve, pvp and wvw respectively have huge differences these days. It’s not like back in the day. 
 

 

[Seb De Tyra.3421]

On 6/26/2021 at 9:29 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Then you remember GW1. Truly, ranger wasn't welcome in the end game before HoT. In fact, anything that wasn't an elementalist, a warrior or a thief before HoT was either optional or rejected (yes even guardian). The rankng was more or less:

1. S rank: Elementalist (Conjure shortbow/lightning hammer/Fiery GS, Fire field/water field/lightning field/blast)
2. A rank: Warrior (Phallanx strength/traited GS), Thief (stealth for add skip)
3. B rank: Mesmer (reflect/portal/Quickness), Engineer (Blast + most fields)
4. C rank: Guardian (reflect but held back by it's light fields)
5. F rank: Necromancer/Ranger

Did Frank only ever play necro and ranger? Poor Frank.

[Seb De Tyra.3421]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:18 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I mean, Druid literally is about as 'nature' as you get.  Every staff skill is nature themed, it has a ton of literal root abilities (ancient seeds being the most notable) and you can turn into a literal nature spirit every 10s or so.  

 

I'd agree Soulbeast lost that theme completely, it was purely about player complaints and their inability to fix pets.  So that's why the green cloud, because it's the only 'nature' theme they could muster with the merging thing (aside from the stance animations).  

Tbh I really liked the theme of soulbeast. All the stances are animal based, you get 3 new skills from the pet you merge with. They should have released it the way it is now with only one pet. That makes more sense. They didn't design the pets skills very well though since smokescale has always been the best pet for power anyway. 

[Caeledh.5437]

On 6/28/2021 at 4:18 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I mean, Druid literally is about as 'nature' as you get.  Every staff skill is nature themed, it has a ton of literal root abilities (ancient seeds being the most notable) and you can turn into a literal nature spirit every 10s or so.  

Every staff skill is nature themed?

 

Nah.

 

1 and 2 are light themed and what you use most often.

 

3 is also light themed and a heal.

 

4 is a nice rooty thing, but on a long cooldown and again, not so much useful for damage.

 

5 is another healy and on a long cooldown.

 

If you're doing open world content, the staff is really just 1 and 2. Neither of which really screams "nature".

 

Celestial avatar a "literal nature spirit"?

 

Again, no.

 

Not that I'm completely unappreciative of GW2's lore but nothing about celestial avatar really screams druid or nature. Even putting aside it being a form on a cooldown (ugh!) and mostly only useful for heals, it's a blue starry thing. That doesn't tickle my nature itch at all.

 

Most of my characters are Sylvari. It's a big itch.

 

Revenant's Ventari out-druids GW2 druids by about 3 galaxies.

 

Had ANet not kept cramming cooldowns into every imaginable and a few unimaginable orifices of revenants, I'd be playing them. But that's a different problem...

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

Every staff skill is nature themed?

 

Nah.

 

1 and 2 are light themed and what you use most often.

 

3 is also light themed and a heal.

 

4 is a nice rooty thing, but on a long cooldown and again, not so much useful for damage.

 

5 is another healy and on a long cooldown.

 

If you're doing open world content, the staff is really just 1 and 2. Neither of which really screams "nature".

 

Celestial avatar a "literal nature spirit"?

 

Again, no.

 

Not that I'm completely unappreciative of GW2's lore but nothing about celestial avatar really screams druid or nature. Even putting aside it being a form on a cooldown (ugh!) and mostly only useful for heals, it's a blue starry thing. That doesn't tickle my nature itch at all.

 

Most of my characters are Sylvari. It's a big itch.

 

Revenant's Ventari out-druids GW2 druids by about 3 galaxies.

 

Had ANet not kept cramming cooldowns into every imaginable and a few unimaginable orifices of revenants, I'd be playing them. But that's a different problem...

 

Yeah that's why I think I agree with Bigo and mode specification is important.  As I can see Druid not being used in open world PvE but in WvW I'd strongly disagree with those assessments for staff; but again WvW is way more about control than damage.

 

Ex:

 

1. Exists to build CA form and heal you, can also heal allies

2. Never use this

3. The most important skill as it is both a kite and a blast heal

4. Very important skill as it is a long root from range

5. Very important skill as it can be used as a blast heal or cause projectiles to heal you (i.e. rapid fire)

 

Anyway, I suggest looking closer at some of the things if you are talking strictly theme.  In avatar form alone you have things like seed of life which is a direct nature reference, and again have rooting skills throughout the spec that summon literal vines (staff 4, ancient seeds, etc.).  

 

Considering HoT is entirely about vines and jungles (when the spec was introduced), Druid is definitely the spec that makes the most thematic sense out of all of them.

 

Also, nature isn't just plants--celestial bodies (i.e. the moon) make up nature as well.  So celestial avatar and such channel astral / cosmic facets which you really can't get more nature than that.  

[Caeledh.5437]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:37 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

As I can see Druid not being used in open world PvE but in WvW I'd strongly disagree with those assessments for staff; but again WvW is way more about control than damage.

How could you strongly disagree with my assessments for staff?

 

As it relates to game mode, granted , maybe staff 3, 4 and 5 have some use in WvW. So you might see occasional flowers and vines, but still mostly glowy yellow light (i.e. solar) abilities.

 

It doesn't scream "nature".

 

The Sylvari racial abilities scream "nature". But all racial skills are deliberately kitten compared to class ones so that players don't feel obligated to play a race they don't enjoy. While I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment - that race should be cosmetic only -  as one of a great many players of fantasy games who is into nature...

 

My experience of GW2 has been immensely unsatisfying.

 

Drool over Sylvari concept art and graphics for many, many, many months pre launch.

 

Game launch.

 

Make a Sylvari. Or 12.

 

Enjoy their racial abilities for a little while until they're eclipsed by class ones.

 

Largely lose interest in ranger.

 

There was a time when ranger spirits could follow you around and that was something. Not perma - which sucked - and you had to resummon them when their CDs finished - more suckage - but there were at least broken up periods where you could run around with their cool little tree spirits.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

45 minutes ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

How could you strongly disagree with my assessments for staff?

 

As it relates to game mode, granted , maybe staff 3, 4 and 5 have some use in WvW. So you might see occasional flowers and vines, but still mostly glowy yellow light (i.e. solar) abilities.

 

The sun is a pretty important part of nature, but think we're getting down a rabbit hole of 'agree to disagree' here.  

[Caeledh.5437]

18 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

The sun is a pretty important part of nature, but think we're getting down a rabbit hole of 'agree to disagree' here.  

This isn't rabbit hole territory.

 

This is the meat of our disagreement and you are totally wrong.

 

Technically EVERYTHING not manufactured by flesh and blood beings in the universe is "natural". Including huge stinking piles of poop.

 

That doesn't mean ANet or any other developer should or would create a druid class which conjures steaming piles of poop.

 

In RPG territory, which is where we are, "nature" usually focuses on plants and animals. Beyond that yes, there's sun and moon stuff. But if that's present it's usually a side dish alongside the plant and animal stuff.

 

GW2 is probably the single most plant-tastic MMORPG with Sylvari and the first expansion focusing on Maguuma and Mordremoth.

 

Yet GW2 offers next to nothing to players in the department of player abilities.

 

I was originally very excited about the announcement of PoF's druid because it seemed like the answer.

 

 

Cos, yes please, plant magic.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Druid_Spirit

 

But weirdly no.

 

And also with necro shroud-like form - celestial avatar - on a cooldown. Ugh.

 

The most plant-tastic thing about rangers presently is the leafy Soulbeast swirl. Which seems totally random and weird because it's beastmode not plantmode. It looks like an admission of guilt by ANet that they know rangers are herbaceously deficient.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

This isn't rabbit hole territory.

 

This is the meat of our disagreement and you are totally wrong.

 

Technically EVERYTHING not manufactured by flesh and blood beings in the universe is "natural". Including huge stinking piles of poop.

 

That doesn't mean ANet or any other developer should or would create a druid class which conjures steaming piles of poop.

 

In RPG territory, which is where we are, "nature" usually focuses on plants and animals. Beyond that yes, there's sun and moon stuff. But if that's present it's usually a side dish alongside the plant and animal stuff.

 

GW2 is probably the single most plant-tastic MMORPG with Sylvari and the first expansion focusing on Maguuma and Mordremoth.

 

Yet GW2 offers next to nothing to players in the department of player abilities.

 

I was originally very excited about the announcement of PoF's druid because it seemed like the answer.

 

 

Cos, yes please, plant magic.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Druid_Spirit

 

But weirdly no.

 

And also with necro shroud-like form - celestial avatar - on a cooldown. Ugh.

 

The most plant-tastic thing about rangers presently is the leafy Soulbeast swirl. Which seems totally random and weird because it's beastmode not plantmode. It looks like an admission of guilt by ANet that they know rangers are herbaceously deficient.

 

If you want to RP as a plant that's cool and all; just know there are no plants without the sun (and occasionally moon in the case of moon flowers).  

 

Only on the ranger forums can we go from a discussion of how ranger feels outdated to a discussion of what 'nature' actually means....

[Lazze.9870]

There is still plenty of room for GW2 going forward to make a ranger spec that dwells deeper into "traditional nature magic" and plants. Might get one with EoD for all we know, based on the wardens in the kurzick forrest.

 

In terms of pure themes, I really like the celestial aspect of druid and in my opinion it still fits the lore. Perhaps the name itself, druid, is what's wrong with it because of all the accessiations to what a druid is supposed to be as opposed to what we got. I also don't mind that it's healing centric, buuut...

 

The problem with druid is the mechanical aspect of it, the fact that the pet is still there the same way it is with core ranger (with the stat penalty added later for good measure), the clunkiness of CA and how that results in how its currently used, the lack of any prominent changes to staff that aren't nerfs (I personally don't have too much of an issue with the AA though) and certain aspects of the glyphs. Traits should be more focused on what druid is supposed to be first and foremost (a support with some light CC).

 

CA imo shouldn't have a cooldown, it should be more like holoforge, but instead of heating up you drain built up celestial force and you're kicked out of it if you run empty. Traits like Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow could affect single skills within the avatar and balanced accordingly, kinda like the mid traits for holo. My issue with DC especially is that, while a full cleanse is obviously really good and works with how druid has always been played in pvp or roaming, it shouldn't belong to a support spec. It should provide fewer cleanses in an aoe, that's what a support spec do.

 

I also firmly believe that Nature Magic should provide better synergy with druid other than the spirits and giving warhorn some regen. An elite spec dedicated to support doesn't work in competetive modes unless the base class provide some kind of foundation. In PvE that isn't a problem because of spirits, but everywhere else it is. You pretty much got healing spring, some regen, maybe signet of renewal, and aoe stun break with protect me.. It just isn't enough. All other classes (yes, maybe even thief - trickery would still affect their main mechanic, shadow arts doesn't provide any less support than nature magic), have a better baseline to work around a dedicate support elite spec.

 

But well, Anet is obviously happy with how it can provide some heals and might while otherwise operating as a spirit bot in pve. Imagine trying to sell a new expansion with an elite spec like that.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[frareanselm.1925]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:26 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

If you want to RP as a plant that's cool and all; just know there are no plants without the sun (and occasionally moon in the case of moon flowers).  

 

Only on the ranger forums can we go from a discussion of how ranger feels outdated to a discussion of what 'nature' actually means....

If you look to the druid archetype in most books, movies and tv series like Britannia you'll understand what a druid is and its intrincate connection with plants. As sages of the forest the main role of druid was elaborating healing and supporting beberages for their tribe. It would have had more sense a elite skill delivering a cauldron that induced allies to "rampage" as the berserker mode described in nordic culture. Also druids had diviner abilities with runes and again Anet decides to ignore all of that.

Imagine a druid converting animal mobs into allies... the possibilities Anet had were immense to make a amazing class

 

Instead they decide the glyphs mechanic that is ambiguous and boring. I dont know if is lack of imagination or just being lazy.

[Caeledh.5437]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:26 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

If you want to RP as a plant that's cool and all; just know there are no plants without the sun (and occasionally moon in the case of moon flowers).  

 

Only on the ranger forums can we go from a discussion of how ranger feels outdated to a discussion of what 'nature' actually means....

My original and all following comments are on topic.

 

They're worse than just outdated and abandoned. They never hit the mark thematically.

 

From the outset they were fighters + pet.

 

This is a game with THE most plant-tastic playable species ever.

 

The first of only two expansions is laser focused on that species.

 

But the game offers almost nothing in the way of player abilities in this department.

[DeceiverX.8361]

1 hour ago, Caeledh.5437 said:

My original and all following comments are on topic.

 

They're worse than just outdated and abandoned. They never hit the mark thematically.

 

From the outset they were fighters + pet.

 

This is a game with THE most plant-tastic playable species ever.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a super old podcast prior to release talking about the theme of the ranger intentionally being Warrior + Pet and not having lots of nature magic stuff BECAUSE it would make no sense for any other race except Sylvari to be rangers.

 

Because nothing says controlling plants like a Charr.

[Caeledh.5437]

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

I'm pretty sure there's a super old podcast prior to release talking about the theme of the ranger intentionally being Warrior + Pet and not having lots of nature magic stuff BECAUSE it would make no sense for any other race except Sylvari to be rangers.

 

Because nothing says controlling plants like a Charr.

 

Oh please...

 

We could compile an ENORMOUS list of games with some form of plant control magic, used by species who aren't themselves plants. Pretty much every RPG with any sort of nature magic.

 

And your same illogical argument applied to GW2 would also mean that it makes no sense for any race other than Charr to be engineers. Or any race other than Asura to be holosmiths.

 

etc. etc. etc.

[Substance E.4852]

17 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

I'm pretty sure there's a super old podcast prior to release talking about the theme of the ranger intentionally being Warrior + Pet and not having lots of nature magic stuff BECAUSE it would make no sense for any other race except Sylvari to be rangers.

 

Because nothing says controlling plants like a Charr.

Charr using bows instead of whatever steam power AK47's they have nowadays doesn't make any sense either

[Arrys.7145]

On 7/3/2021 at 4:38 PM, Caeledh.5437 said:

Technically EVERYTHING not manufactured by flesh and blood beings in the universe is "natural". Including huge stinking piles of poop

 

Technically since humans evolved here and are natural critters the things we make are no more unnatural than a beaver dam.  

 

Unnatural only exists if you believe god made you and you are above not a part of our world.  Helps to be in denial of the universes destructive and therefore transformative nature as well.

[anduriell.6280]

The naturalist thematic is fine, it serves to give a background to the class so devs and artists have an start point to design skills and animations. 

 

However the profession is all over the place. Traps got no natural implications in it's animations or effects. Signets are totally uninspired. Survival is a mashup of the best utility effects. Shou.. Commands have nothing to do with commanding anything. 

 

We got a Druid which is supposed to be naturalist yet there is total disconnection between glyphs, celestial avatar and staff. 

Same goes with Soulbeast. It feels like it is supposed to bring up the animalistic side of the profession, and it is shown in the stances, but the dagger skills and themes makes absolutely no sense. 

 

Yet the class need a full rework from core to the latests spec and i would say even up to the upcoming one. I'm betting the new spec will be another bunch of random skills and effects glue together. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by anduriell.6280
added a bunch of stuff.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[anduriell.6280]

41 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Druids in history were philosophers, religious authorities, teachers and political advisors but certainly not hippies. Some were established political authorities, others were wanderers. Every bit of mechanic on druid reminds us of the plurality of Celtic' beliefs and yet some are still missing but the reverence to celestial being was essential in those beliefs and no nature wasn't everything (forests were more depleted under Celtic rule than nowadays).

What's missing is the idea of sacrificing something in order to improve the rest and burning your enemies to the stake.

GW2 is PG13 after all and the little we know about druids cannot be translated into a game ...

 

You are mixing concepts and worlds there, i would ask of you to keep the talk within Gw2 lore or at least the descriptions the devs gave us. Next thing you may come up comparing Gw2 Druid with WoW Druid and some druid from the marvel universe and why they should have mystical connections. 

 

But at the end i think we agree on the point that the profession is a mess, mechanically and artistically. I am not talking about the quality of the animations, although there are some questionable ones like the weird pose female Druids do with the staff. I wonder why Anet could not use the same animations between female and male. Or the fact the vines surrounding the Soulbeast are not centered in the character which is unnerving when it clips with every single pose. 

 

Ranger feels like the effects and the art are glued together with no respect for the intended theme, like it is a bunch of discarded utilities and animations Anet could not apply to other professions. And that reflects in the overall quality and feel of the class. 

 

In any case sacrificing can be perfectly done in this game as the necromancer sacrifice it's minions constantly. Also ranger's spirits were sacrificed for a short period, before the diminish health. 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Arrys.7145]

2 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

EDIT: To resume it's a matter of perception. I think they gave too much to core professions and try to give to many mechanics for each e-spec without focusing enough on one aspect and it turns out unfulfilling as they might not know what the future holds and how many expansion they can release. Not balancing enough doesn't help either imo

They had to as in the beginning all they had was core and if the class didn't have the necessary abilities it was toast.  In adding content how they expand the class without expanding the class over other archetypes while maintaining differentiation to core is an unwinnable fight.  And you need the expansion to be purchased so it gets goodies.

 

Overall the game remains worth coming back to every so often to play the evolutions and ranger for all it's weaknesses is still the most enjoyable for me to play....

 

Predictable inbalance is the best a game like GW2 can every achieve.  GW2 does good at that and we adapt to it play the imbalance for a while then they tweak it.