WvW class diversity

[Pablo.3259]

 

 

1. Problem : There is 27 specializations for 5 party slots.

 

2. Result : Discrimination & lower gameplay diversity.

 

3. Incoming problem : There is 36 specializations for 5 party slots.🤪

 

4. Suggestion : Increase some support skills targets skill cap.

 

....

 What's your suggestion ?

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Or you like your popcorn 🍿 a with a bit more salt from the rangers tears ? (It actually don't taste that bad 😋 : here more crispy for you

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Pablo.3259

[Zyreva.1078]

10 minutes ago, Pablo.3259 said:

....

 What's your suggestion ?

 

Better balance and less pigheaded players.

Increasing target caps for supports doesn't increase diversity (we already have been there), it only makes supports (even more) op.

[Chaba.5410]

I'm really not following your argument.  What does "Discrimination & lower gameplay diversity" have to do with "Increase some support skills targets skill cap."?

[Pablo.3259]

If firebrands and scrappers for example could support more than 5 targets more class could fit inside a team.

I understand that most people really don't want to buff FB or Scrappers but it can make other class life better.

The target skill cap was just a suggestion and I'm not sure if it would solve the entire issue.

But even if my suggestion is not the best it feels very unhealthy to leave this problem untouched for so long.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Pablo.3259

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I'm really not following your argument.  What does "Discrimination & lower gameplay diversity" have to do with "Increase some support skills targets skill cap."?

His idea is that increasing the target cap for support skills means that fewer support players are needed to cover the whole squad, freeing up these slots for other classes to get taken.

[Chaba.5410]

11 minutes ago, Pablo.3259 said:

If firebrands and scrappers could support more than 5 targets more class could fit inside a team.

The target skill cap was just a suggestion and I'm not sure if it would solve the entire issue.

But even if my suggestion is not the best it feels very unhealthy to leave this problem untouched for so long.

I see what you're saying.   Doesn't that just free up a spot for more of whatever the meta dps class is?  Doesn't really address diversity issue.

[XenesisII.1540]

54 minutes ago, Pablo.3259 said:

1. Problem : There is 27 specializations for 5 party slots.

2. Result : Discrimination & lower gameplay diversity.

3. Incoming problem : There is 36 specializations for 5 party slots.🤪

4. Suggestion : Increase some support skills targets skill cap.

 What's your suggestion ?

 

Run a zerg of 27 or 36 players, one for each specialization, problem solved. 🤪

 

There's no need to raise skill target caps, we're getting more specs not players.

Groups will still be the usual run 2-3 support of guard/firebrand/scrapper, 1 rev/scourge/chrono, then whatever else to fill in the blanks which is 20+ useless specs as it is and 30+ when the expansion hits.

Incoming specs will just serve to replace certain specs, the "best" ones to fill the roles will be figured out and moved in.

 

[Apokriphos.7042]

Increasing the AoE Target cap for support skills is a terrible idea. Promoting more stacking gameplay would drive less diversity, as @Chaba.5410 stated. 

 

Instead, Anet should vastly increase potential variety in WvW Combat.

 

This could be done through specific targeted improvements to the game mode:

 

1. Rebalancing all unused weapons/traits/sigils/runes/stats so that all classes and specializations provide UNIQUE and useful benefits to allies. 
2. DISincentivize mindless "stacking" zerg gameplay. To do this, Increase AoE DPS caps by 2x. Stacking is not remotely strategic or complex for the End-game Mode of GW2. Instead, we should look to encourage tactical play involving benefits and weaknesses of stacked combat. Sure you get more boons, but perhaps you take more damage. The solution of 'just bring more numbers' should never have been a thing, and Anet needs to move away from this concept. 
3. Increase variety of siege and structural complexity & interaction. This means that all structures, from Camp Huts to pillars in towers/keeps, should be destructible. Similarly, you should be able to build more structures then just siege throughout the map. This will increase variety and create more creative ways to explore the game mode.

 

We want a hard to solve mode, not just stack more, bring more supports. Numbers shouldn't provide such an overwhelming advantage. 

 

If you want variety, make the META vastly more difficult and fluid, so it isn't so easily solved.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Apokriphos.7042

[Pablo.3259]

From the experience I have : differents dps specs excels in differents area :

(ex: range/gameplay wise.) If they are balanced correctly all dps spec should have a situation where they are strong (not necessarly the best).

So either you try to have lots of differents dps class to have a okay performing squad in most situation or you specialize your squad to have one dominant dps class to be very efficient in an area and this would define a squad fight style. Which can be countered with less efforts. Or you invite anyone that is dps class if you need more dps. You could also fill the rest of the slot with other stuff than 100% dps class.

 

If a dps class is doing everything better than any other class that's a balance issue that also need to be looked at.

[Chaba.5410]

2 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Run a zerg of 27 or 36 players, one for each specialization, problem solved. 🤪

 

 

This sounds like a meme night idea.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Pablo.3259 said:

1. Problem : There is 27 specializations for 5 party slots.

Not a problem.

 

1 hour ago, Pablo.3259 said:

2. Result : Discrimination & lower gameplay diversity.

Not a problem/result if you make your own squads and play how you want.

 

1 hour ago, Pablo.3259 said:

3. Incoming problem : There is 36 specializations for 5 party slots.🤪

Not a problem. Not sure why you'd even need an even spread of specs for some reason?

 

1 hour ago, Pablo.3259 said:

4. Suggestion : Increase some support skills targets skill cap.

I don't see the relevance?

 

 

Spoiler

Rangers crying LUL ok

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Most zergs I run with are a hodgepodge of random professions.  If there's an issue with WvW discrimination, I'm not seeing it.

 

Anyway, I'd rather focus on which professions are really bad and raise them up.  They don't have to be meta, they just have to be good enough.  

[XenesisII.1540]

Well it would be nice to insert whatever elite spec into their intended roles, but unfortunately anet has been really terrible in developing and spreading out important group stuff, like dumping cleanse heal convert stealth superspeed all on scrapper while they have 4 main healing classes around.

 

It would be nice to spread the love around and maybe give some strong optional choices and maybe give the theory crafters something to play with different comps, you know like maybe the cleansing classes could have had their cleanses converting conditions into one boon that's the main one for their class, so mesmer menders purity trait converts any conditions to alacrity, or ele cleanse converts them to protection, guard one to aegis, warrior one to stability, eng one to quickness, naaaaaah lets just make one convert all trait on scrapper and call it a day!

 

You won't get class diversity as long as this dev team continues to throw whatever willy nilly to the strongest meta classes, instead of maybe looking at trinity class type building. Now we just pick whatever is the strongest for the boon ball and run with it. With 3 extra tries you think they'll finally give rangers and thieves a decent zerg elite spec? lmao naaaaaah.

 

[Telgum.6071]

Oh yes, what a great idea, Firebrand buffs so they can put all the boons on 10 allies instead 5. Exactly what WvW needs.

 

/s

 

My suggestion: make the "discriminated" classes more useful through reworks or the new specs. Nerf firebrand and every overtuned build.

 

And bring alliances. 

[God.2708]

The question of interest is really more 'is Zerg play WvW?' to which I'd argue it isn't. It is a sizeable chunk of WvW, but it is not WvW itself. So it should not be the lens through which you look at class diversity.

If you look at the recent GvG tourney, basically every class (though not every elite spec) was represented.Likewise in roaming, many of the classes that show up are frequently not the classes or specializations that show up in zerg play. Do we dedicate resources to making sure that all 27 (soon to be 36) show up in roaming as well? Or do we pretend roaming is not part of WvW and thus doesn't need diversity? Or do we include that count combined with zerg classes to get our total count? Why did we pick the option we did?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i think the meta classes should do less mechanics wise but do what they do well. the problem i see with off meta specs is that they are actually balanced, they do only do a couple things well, but not many things well. i hope that makes sense.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

People just need to get creative with the sub groups, not everything has to follow the meta. If you want stealth for your sub, find a: scrapper, mesmer, thief

 

If you want stab: boon soulbeast, guardian, rev

 

Want condi cleanse: healbreaker, tempest, guard, scrapper, etc

 

More elite specialization will bring more variety of specializations that can possibly bring some of the things listed above.  

 

We do need more variety of classes covering stability, team stealth and etc.  so there are more options for players to help fit the subgroup puzzles.

 

The meta for wvw is definitely one of the most efficient comps, buts not the only efficient one and only playstyle in wvw.

Edited June 23, 2021 by TheDeafGuy.4519

[joneirikb.7506]

The more I read this thread, the more I think that each class should have something unique that only they bring. And this *HAVE* to be from the core class, not the elites. 

 

Basically, they should roll so guardian for example focus on stability, and they should make all stability sharing from the core class, not the FB. So that any future elite spec can build around the same core element to function in different ways.

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

6 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

The more I read this thread, the more I think that each class should have something unique that only they bring. And this *HAVE* to be from the core class, not the elites. 

 

Basically, they should roll so guardian for example focus on stability, and they should make all stability sharing from the core class, not the FB. So that any future elite spec can build around the same core element to function in different ways.

The only big issue with that is pigeon holding.  If only guard is able to take stab, you'll always need a guard for each sub. If a certain class can cleanse efficiently, you'll always need that class. If only one class can stealth, you'll always need that class. (For advantages).  I think its okay to let other classes have certain aspects that another class does extremely well. We all know guard is king of stability,  as should be, but there are other options.  We know thieves are kings of stealth,  but there are other options. 

 

I think having other options will make the game more colorful and not so stale.  Only issue is if a certain class is king of more than two things or close to being.  

[joneirikb.7506]

9 minutes ago, TheDeafGuy.4519 said:

The only big issue with that is pigeon holding.  If only guard is able to take stab, you'll always need a guard for each sub. If a certain class can cleanse efficiently, you'll always need that class. If only one class can stealth, you'll always need that class. (For advantages).  I think its okay to let other classes have certain aspects that another class does extremely well. We all know guard is king of stability,  as should be, but there are other options.  We know thieves are kings of stealth,  but there are other options. 

 

I think having other options will make the game more colorful and not so stale.  Only issue is if a certain class is king of more than two things or close to being.  

And I think that could be good options for other skills or trait lines. 

Say Guardian Honour/shouts are the main source of stability in a group setting.

Then perhaps have FireBrand/Mantra's be good at sharing something else (Aegis/Quickness, something). 

Or one of the other core specialisations/skill-sets have another (Aegis, might, etc)

It basically sets a limit on how many types of boons/effects you can share per class. And elite's would give more options. Would require ANet to go over the entire current system with a bulldozer, and remove all the over-performing aspects here. Similar to the idea above about converting condi into specific boons, depending on the class.

Edited June 23, 2021 by joneirikb.7506

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

2 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

And I think that could be good options for other skills or trait lines. 

Say Guardian Honour/shouts are the main source of stability in a group setting.

Then perhaps have FireBrand/Mantra's be good at sharing something else (Aegis/Quickness, something). 

Or one of the other core specialisations/skill-sets have another (Aegis, might, etc)

It basically sets a limit on how many types of boons/effects you can share per class. And elite's would give more options. Would require ANet to go over the entire current system with a bulldozer, and remove all the over-performing aspects here. Similar to the idea about about converting condi into specific boons, depending on the class.

I was just editing my previous comment after thinking about it before you replied.  It's not at all a bad idea, the elite specializations should add onto what they specialize in, whether it be something another class already focuses on but just in bits to help balance subgroups.

Edited June 23, 2021 by TheDeafGuy.4519

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

Remove some of the support carry builds clogging up the party slots. Should be pick your weapon, not pick your carry/handicap build.

[XenesisII.1540]

37 minutes ago, TheDeafGuy.4519 said:

People just need to get creative with the sub groups, not everything has to follow the meta. If you want stealth for your sub, find a: scrapper, mesmer, thief

 

If you want stab: boon soulbeast, guardian, rev

 

Want condi cleanse: healbreaker, tempest, guard, scrapper, etc

 

 

Pretty funny because you mostly named the meta classes in those groups, there's no reason to get creative with a group when there is one to rule them all in those categories.

 

Mesmer use to own the rights on mass stealth with veil and mass invis, then it was completely handed over to scrapper which also able to blast for longer duration and gives superspeed, it's a no brainer who you take for stealth now. This is one of the situations they handled badly in spreading the abilities.

 

For stab groups already run guard and rev and scrapper as meta slots, soulbeast are not even a question of or, they're not even invited to zergs.

 

Condi cleanse you take scrapper first because of purity of purpose, no question, guard is already there, tempest and war are just extras fillers.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

delete this thread, thanks. that's the only solution needed here.

 

less support = more chaos bc cheap pullers and cc's would dominate

 

. u cannot nerf there. it's gone yet bad enough... groups will only bring get forced into bringing more supports, and casuals will only cry more about it.

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

 

9 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Pretty funny because you mostly named the meta classes in those groups, there's no reason to get creative with a group when there is one to rule them all in those categories.

 

Mesmer use to own the rights on mass stealth with veil and mass invis, then it was completely handed over to scrapper which also able to blast for longer duration and gives superspeed, it's a no brainer who you take for stealth now. This is one of the situations they handled badly in spreading the abilities.

 

For stab groups already run guard and rev and scrapper as meta slots, soulbeast are not even a question of or, they're not even invited to zergs.

 

Condi cleanse you take scrapper first because of purity of purpose, no question, guard is already there, tempest and war are just extras fillers.

 Well considering Scrapper is already loaded with mass cleanse and super speed, ofc they're going to utilize their stealth on top of that since their other elite skills aren't all that great.  Its just being efficient.  If thieves come out with a really good support class with the next elite, I'm sure smoke fields will be spammed by them next, only reason they're not bringing it cause they don't fit in the meta right now. I'm sure zergs can utilize thieves if they wanted to, but like I stated above, no reason to.

Mesmer elite stealth is still one of the best stealth's in the game due to its range and duration, but why take that over lets say gravity well when scrapper is already bringing the stealth.  

For the stab part, they may not be invited to zergs, but smaller groups definitely could make use of them as mine has. There's more to WvW then just zerging as already mentioned.  

Purity of purpose used to be busted that's why they 100% were taken, they still have some of the best cleanses in the game, don't get me wrong, but the cleanses have an extremely small radius in comparison to some other options that classes have.  Take mediscrapper for a more spread out group, not gonna do too hot.  

But this comes to my comment, if a class is doing too much, or king of multiple things, then nerfs are needed ofc.  

I also know that they're meta, that's the reason why they're meta lol. It's not a bad thing, just saying giving aspects to other classes might make support classes more flexible.  There's unfortunately always going to be a meta, there's really no stopping it, but having more classes and builds that are allowed as replacements might make the game more flexible.

Edited June 24, 2021 by TheDeafGuy.4519