Defending needs nerfs

[Fatal.1347]

 

15 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You don't like fighting inside structures, you don't like defending, you don't like stacking, you don't like siege. To me seems like you just don't like WvW.

 

But don't worry, I'll finish this conversation giving you the solution to all your problems and saving you hours of suffering, boredom and biased threads on the wvw forum. You just have to clic here.

I like old WvW where fights were enjoyable everywhere.

And sorry, sPvP isn't same as old WvW. Do you give that solution to everyone that doesn't like the new changes? Government passes a new law -> change country and never say you disagree with them? Hehe, talk about trying to be snarky.

Edit: Also, biased, really? People are not allowed to have opinions anymore? To be biased, there would have to be another person I am agreeing with just because our personal connection. And I might actually enjoy my time on the forums once a week. Don't assume everyone likes, or should like, same things as you.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:31 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

You really love expanding the situation of your server to the whole game mode, don't you? I must be on the only server which players do PPT and fight with no need to "split".

 

But yeah dude, I'll repeat myself: if you don't like WvW why don't you just move to the pvp arena and stop suffering and moaning about wvw being a dead mode and all that stuff?

nah, fatal is correct there. people avoid fighting seriously over objectives at all cost. best example, t1 EU. extremly stale, people even wipe with open tag blobs again guild zergs of even bad guilds. like, those that cannot even really fight, but are barely getting a stealthpush together. ppt blobs then just shatter, bc the people absolutely dont understand that this is a pvp format.

 

people think, all is to be done with outnumbering the enemy group 5:1 and heavy siegeing. offensively this surely works less well, so ppl there just split up onto every maps in smaller groups to be able to ppt flip undefended stuff in peace.

 

or they turtle inside towers behind 10+ arrowcarts.

 

this IS a huge issue. it is also like that bc there's not many serious fighters left here. people are just and simply waiting for new stuff. EoD bascially. maybe Alliances' Beta stuff will draw yet some people back in, notsure tho.

 

for serious fighting players, it's just dead boring if a three time sized group hides behind siege and inside tower/keeps to stealthpush your 20-25 lel. it's demotivating and boring. even if u wipe them, few minutes later same game. once inner is breached and u wiped them 1-2 times on lord, chances are good that they won't come again, or that they'll try to mobilize a zoneblob for your 20ish group.

 

or they just hide/log and relog in to do their night-ppt karmatrain...

 

this ain't "ded gaem" ranting. only you do that here, actually. it's the realistic stance of current Wvw. count the strong fighting guilds left here... ain't many.

 

also, s-pvp is just not the same. it has its own balance and just works different. many of us barely play it. it's too repetitive. maps supertiny, no real coordination like a voiced guild has. (only at very highest level... my pc and web alone would be too bad to play that way). so i kindly suggest u stop suggesting that, bc it's just not what largescale fighting players care about. many of us have spvp experience, but still dont play it a lot.

[Telgum.6071]

43 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

people avoid fighting seriously over objectives at all cost. best example, t1 EU. extremly stale, people even wipe with open tag blobs again guild zergs of even bad guilds. like, those that cannot even really fight, but are barely getting a stealthpush together. ppt blobs then just shatter, bc the people absolutely dont understand that this is a pvp format.

 

people think, all is to be done with outnumbering the enemy group 5:1 and heavy siegeing. offensively this surely works less well, so ppl there just split up onto every maps in smaller groups to be able to ppt flip undefended stuff in peace.

 

or they turtle inside towers behind 10+ arrowcarts.

 

this IS a huge issue. it is also like that bc there's not many serious fighters left here. people are just and simply waiting for new stuff. EoD bascially. maybe Alliances' Beta stuff will draw yet some people back in, notsure tho.

 

for serious fighting players, it's just dead boring if a three time sized group hides behind siege and inside tower/keeps to stealthpush your 20-25 lel. it's demotivating and boring. even if u wipe them, few minutes later same game. once inner is breached and u wiped them 1-2 times on lord, chances are good that they won't come again, or that they'll try to mobilize a zoneblob for your 20ish group.

 

or they just hide/log and relog in to do their night-ppt karmatrain...

I will never get tired of saying this: that may be your situation, I come across the opposite day after day after day.

 

You guys have a serious but wrong idea about the whole wvw situation. Why do you insist on repeating all over and over again lies like "people don't fight", "people hide to relog in the night to k-train". Have you considered that this isn't happening on every server? Weren't you the one saying that T1 is a horrible place to stay because of that situation? Then why do you talk like the T1 issue happens across the entire tier list?

 

And I disagree with that comment of "people hiding behind siege is a HUGE issue". Nah buddy, everyone plays wvw the way they like, sieging is part of wvw as much as fighting is.

 

I doubt you'll convince anyone about siege being a problem in this minstrel + double support per party meta. Perhaps roamers and echo-chamber clouds, no one else.

 

51 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

this ain't "ded gaem" ranting. only you do that here

Really? I'm not the one who made a thread saying that wvw is dead

 

57 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

once inner is breached and u wiped them 1-2 times on lord, chances are good that they won't come again, or that they'll try to mobilize a zoneblob for your 20ish group.

This comment is why I will keep insisting on you to move to pvp. Sorry dude, but enemy players not matching your expectations is not a WvW issue (typical Desolation mindset), on PvP however you'll find lots of players willing to fight you over and over again.

 

But people not returning after dying or using siege against you is a problem? Have you considered they don't want to play your game? And they don't have to, leave people play the way they want and don't call that a huge issue.

[Dark Dvid.2906]

There have already been nerfs to siege due to complaints that it holds up the karma trains, AC just tickles most players and scratches  siege. If what you are calling for happens a good percentage will only play when their side has the top population and can blob the others .People seem to focus on their play mode and have a poor understanding of how properly diverse servers can be the most fun to play on. Roamers, defenders, scout,. zerglings all have functions that should work in tune.  Sorry sometimes I ramble. Also isn't it more satisfying to take an objective after a long fought siege?

[Junkpile.7439]

If blob get siege up it's over.  Arrowcarts for example doesn't do anything.

[anduriell.6280]

On 6/27/2021 at 3:37 AM, Fatal.1347 said:

I want to fight, don't care about taking stuff. Empty stuff borin'.

Next engi specialization will come with a siege golem as elite skill so it should not be a problem after EoD. 

 

In any case defending is part of the WvW, use more catapults or trebuchets to take the walls down, there are plenty of choices. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:20 AM, Virdo.1540 said:

Imo, defending needs a huge buff. 

 

A while ago, before the "All siege does 25% less damage" update came, it was still outhealed    doesnt matter how much siege you build. And its still like that.

lies lol, the reason they nerfed siege is cuz a zerg couldn't outheal 6 sup acs hitting 50 people by tryhard defenders.

[Zikory.6871]

11 hours ago, Dark Dvid.2906 said:

 Also isn't it more satisfying to take an objective after a long fought siege?

No. It's not fun or satisfying to sit in siege playing "whos going to run out of supply first". 

[Caedmon.6798]

11 hours ago, Dark Dvid.2906 said:

There have already been nerfs to siege due to complaints that it holds up the karma trains, AC just tickles most players and scratches  siege. If what you are calling for happens a good percentage will only play when their side has the top population and can blob the others .People seem to focus on their play mode and have a poor understanding of how properly diverse servers can be the most fun to play on. Roamers, defenders, scout,. zerglings all have functions that should work in tune.  Sorry sometimes I ramble. Also isn't it more satisfying to take an objective after a long fought siege?

They dont just want easy mode. They want one hand in their dorito bag and one hand pressing 1 on their keyboard mode.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Caedmon.6798

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

lies lol, the reason they nerfed siege is cuz a zerg couldn't outheal 6 sup acs hitting 50 people by tryhard defenders.

And that still happens because people build 12 acs instead.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

What if we turn everyone as golems as an event? That will be different and interesting. 

[jacekplacek.7923]

35 minutes ago, PrinceValentine.9320 said:

What if we turn everyone as golems as an event? That will be different and interesting. 

From which side? Everything will be really slow, fight will be like 111111 the target, go next. Maybe go with week when you don't need suplies to build siege, repair etc. Then some wvw players will earn some more gold selling sieges on tp when price get higher. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And that still happens because people build 12 acs instead.

thank sieges bend. that server had a flock of siege monkeys that built tons of acs all the time. turned everything to t3 over night and camped on objectives. zergs were necessary to even attempt an assault.

[joneirikb.7506]

Quote

Players can only be damaged by arrow cart attacks every 0.5 seconds

Thought this would make multiple AC's pretty redundant, or does it have a separate timer per separate AC ?

[displayname.8315]

It's just sooo hard to build a ballista or counter ac to take out siege isn't it.  Don't build a shield gen no no.  Why bother building a shield when your useless pugs won't use it right anyways amiright.

[Dawdler.8521]

12 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

thank sieges bend. that server had a flock of siege monkeys that built tons of acs all the time. turned everything to t3 over night and camped on objectives. zergs were necessary to even attempt an assault.

Pfff sounds like nothing compared to rivercart, I've seen them have more siege in a T0 tower than we had in T3 garri.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

5 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Thought this would make multiple AC's pretty redundant, or does it have a separate timer per separate AC ?

to hit everyone in a 50 man zerg every 0.5 seconds multiple acs are needed, and even more for each section of wall.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 7/18/2021 at 12:08 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

You don't like fighting inside structures, you don't like defending, you don't like stacking, you don't like siege. To me seems like you just don't like WvW.

 

But don't worry, I'll finish this conversation giving you the solution to all your problems and saving you hours of suffering, boredom and biased threads on the wvw forum. You just have to clic here.

 

Bold of you to assume they would want an evenly matched field.

 

It's always the same story.

 

Guild group of 25 attacks keep vs 20 defenders. Fails because burning oil is so hard to deal with

 

Guild group reveals tag and gets 40 green dots, and breaks in vs the now 30 defenders. They farm the respawns for like 30 minutes. Then they claim they farmed a map queue with only 25 because green dots are legally exempt from number calculations.

 

Then one of two possibilities happens:

 

They succeed in taking everything, and the enemy get broken. The guild finds that their reputation precedes them and nobody wants to fight that crap. Ded game

 

A map queue forms because they've had enough of their crap and are driven out. Ded game because defenders have it too easy.

 

Regardless of either possibility, it leads to the same conclusion:

 

Guild finds their reputation precedes them, and nobody wants to give them content. All that happens is now they just get blobbed down, ignored, or everyone just siege bunkers like mad.

 

Guild switches servers. This resets the situation because people don't know them yet.

 

But the same thing happens, .so they have to keep switching servers.

 

Eventually, they find themselves with nobody anywhere willing to give them content. Everyone begins to hate each other and decides they are carrying too hard. The guild breaks.

 

But, in a few months everyone gets bored again, and the reform begins. The same cycle repeats, but it can only get worse each time when people realize they hate each other.

Edited July 21, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Dark Dvid.2906]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Bold of you to assume they would want an evenly matched field.

 

It's always the same story.

 

Guild group of 25 attacks keep vs 20 defenders. Fails because burning oil is so hard to deal with

 

Guild group reveals tag and gets 40 green dots, and breaks in vs the now 30 defenders. They farm the respawns for like 30 minutes. Then they claim they farmed a map queue with only 25 because green dots are legally exempt from number calculations.

 

Then one of two possibilities happens:

 

They succeed in taking everything, and the enemy get broken. The guild finds that their reputation precedes them and nobody wants to fight that crap. Ded game

 

A map queue forms because they've had enough of their crap and are driven out. Ded game because defenders have it too easy.

 

Regardless of either possibility, it leads to the same conclusion:

 

Guild finds their reputation precedes them, and nobody wants to give them content. All that happens is now they just get blobbed down, ignored, or everyone just siege bunkers like mad.

 

Guild switches servers. This resets the situation because people don't know them yet.

 

But the same thing happens, .so they have to keep switching servers.

 

Eventually, they find themselves with nobody anywhere willing to give them content. Everyone begins to hate each other and decides they are carrying too hard. The guild breaks.

 

But, in a few months everyone gets bored again, and the reform begins. The same cycle repeats, but it can only get worse each time when people realize they hate each other.

sounds like a lot of personal relationships I've seen. Man hates the woman, woman hates the man...but they spend a life time involved

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 minutes ago, Dark Dvid.2906 said:

sounds like a lot of personal relationships I've seen. Man hates the woman, woman hates the man...but they spend a life time involved

 

It's pretty funny.... if you're not involved. 😉

 

But in any case, this is why I get skeptical at any rebrands especially when they want to make a new and strong alliance that will probably go strong until things get tough-- typically 3 months.

 

This will definitely be a thing when alliances come out. I recommend everyone buy some popcorn once the details are finalized.

[Bristingr.5034]

On 7/3/2021 at 10:40 AM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

delete trebs

How dare you say something so barbaric such as wanting to delete the most superior siege in the game.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

How dare you say something so barbaric such as wanting to delete the most superior siege in the game.

on second thought you're right, we shouldn't have to ever fight each other with our characters skill bars.

[XenesisII.1540]

Defending doesn't need nerfs. People need to learn to play the game mode properly.

This isn't an arena, attacking and defending structures is part of the game play, which by the way is still optional for you.

If you don't want to deal with defenders don't attack a structure, now quit the bellyaching over it.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:55 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

nah, fatal is correct there. people avoid fighting seriously over objectives at all cost. best example, t1 EU. extremly stale, people even wipe with open tag blobs again guild zergs of even bad guilds. like, those that cannot even really fight, but are barely getting a stealthpush together. ppt blobs then just shatter, bc the people absolutely dont understand that this is a pvp format.

 

people think, all is to be done with outnumbering the enemy group 5:1 and heavy siegeing. offensively this surely works less well, so ppl there just split up onto every maps in smaller groups to be able to ppt flip undefended stuff in peace.

 

or they turtle inside towers behind 10+ arrowcarts.

 

this IS a huge issue. it is also like that bc there's not many serious fighters left here. people are just and simply waiting for new stuff. EoD bascially. maybe Alliances' Beta stuff will draw yet some people back in, notsure tho.

 

for serious fighting players, it's just dead boring if a three time sized group hides behind siege and inside tower/keeps to stealthpush your 20-25 lel. it's demotivating and boring. even if u wipe them, few minutes later same game. once inner is breached and u wiped them 1-2 times on lord, chances are good that they won't come again, or that they'll try to mobilize a zoneblob for your 20ish group.

 

or they just hide/log and relog in to do their night-ppt karmatrain...

 

this ain't "ded gaem" ranting. only you do that here, actually. it's the realistic stance of current Wvw. count the strong fighting guilds left here... ain't many.

 

also, s-pvp is just not the same. it has its own balance and just works different. many of us barely play it. it's too repetitive. maps supertiny, no real coordination like a voiced guild has. (only at very highest level... my pc and web alone would be too bad to play that way). so i kindly suggest u stop suggesting that, bc it's just not what largescale fighting players care about. many of us have spvp experience, but still dont play it a lot.

 

Pretty much what is happening on lower tiers in NA as well, outnumbered when enemies are pushing structures but if we gather a certain amount of players even less than the group that outmans our link, most times that server will bail ou or will cordinated with the other 3rd server so both will blob the same server, or will increas it their numbers to make the fight one sided w/o issues.

 

Some servers on lower tiers actually m8 have more population than some t3 but they only fight monoblob vs few or empty strucutres.

note: i think this is the true state of the game itself sometimes i notice this on my side as well  or in any NA tier when we go up.

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Defending doesn't need nerfs. People need to learn to play the game mode properly.

This isn't an arena, attacking and defending structures is part of the game play, which by the way is still optional for you.

If you don't want to deal with defenders don't attack a structure, now quit the bellyaching over it.

 

Actually defendind always had more drawbacks 🙂 and still has, players just want win granted or bail to a nearby struture reason why most dont like to atack desert bl map since when atackigna structure group needs to commit and cant hide nor bail as easy has EB and Alpine.

 

Note: standing on walls is still bad and will continue to be a self kill, players dont even know how and where to build siege....

Other thing that i find amuzing is , proxy catas everywhere cause catapults have no range?? even when  a proxy cata is worst thing to do and takes more time....

ive seen in this cases players complaining and quit strucutres since proxy/melee catapult wont make them in...

Edited July 22, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[God.2708]

The idea that defending is hard because enemies can hit you on walls is... A fascinating take. There is plenty of avenues to target the enemy at keeps that they can't retaliate very well or at all. The defender has a mobility advantage in the form of portals the enemy can't access, and so is free to perform hit and runs with almost no drawback.

 

Taking an objective that is defended by an equal number is nigh impossible, it's not designed that way. That's why there's a third server, to force decisions and potentially break up the mono blob that would be unbreakable otherwise when holed up inside the structure.

 

Generally it takes ~3x the offensive power as defensive power to take a structure. That's a fine place for things to be at. If you're struggling to take things it's not because defense is OP or to hard, it's because you're willingly engaging the enemy on bad terms and suffering the consequences.

 

Now the usual recourse to a defending blob is to split and take all their things and so win the PPT game. But this suffers the dual problem of winning not really mattering so it results in an uninteresting form of ktraining, and for groups that are interested in fighting since the PPT doesn't matter they gain no sway over encouraging the enemy to actually engage by doing so. It results in an unfortunate catch-22 that won't get solved by nerfing 'defense' but rather needs to get fixed by making only defending have consequences.