Condi trash meta, will EoD improve or make things worst?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Core FA ele was perfectly viable in WvW during the last months of the HoT era and prior to the Feb 2020 patch where they butchered dmg coefficients, deleted air minor lightning.....arcane skills and halved the sustain on ele, all of this while somebody running an oximoron "tank" reaper can passively crit you for 8k with a bloody trait (shivering), it's instant, no animation..but it's deemed ok...the clearly visible arcane projectile had to be gutted instead..seems about right

It was viable for sure, but it wasn't near the e-speces in the slightest like every other core class. Last days of HoT were "balanced" in terms of powercreep only for HoT e-speces alone, while core was still trash.
Very good that they've butchered dmg coefficients, the bad thing is they haven't done that to all outliners in that feb2020 patch.
Reaper actually is the squishest in the necro arsenal though, Scourge and Core are much more tanky than it by a mile. 
I have not seen any Lesser Spinal Shiver to crit for 8k since like forever now, you sure it wasn't the normal Spinal?

[Spartacus.3192]

i dont know about power vs condi in EOD. What i do predict is a wave of nerfs in the next 6 months under the guise of "balancing" in order to ensure that the new elite specs are busted in comparison which will force players to buy the expansion if they want to play competitive modes or high end PVE (i dunno what that is since i dont pve but you get my point). This happened in HOT and POF. Dont see why it will not happen again. 

 

So expect the meta to swing around quite wildly for the next 6 months.

 

Maybe i'll be proved wrong and i will dig up this post and laugh. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

19 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Dawdler.8521 @diomache.9246

I think maybe what Arheundel means is that condis got indirectly buffed by the Feb 2020 update since power damage was nerfed across the board, but several condis were left untouched.  So relatively speaking, they were "buffed" even if that isn't technically accurate.

 

Now that is actually true..

Consider the skill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blazing_Edge

 

This was a CC attack and thus the power coefficient was lowered. However, the burn damage, which is more or less the main thing about the skill wasn't touched at all, effectively making it a CC skill that still does damage.

 

Meanwhile https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker , a so called "burst skill" does like 4 damage.

 

And then there's also https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Ward which also has a CC attribute but still does damage. Obviously the skill would be useless otherwise, but this is why mindlessly lowering coefficients everywhere wasn't a good long term solution.

 

Of course, this does not change the fact that power is dominant at all scales 5+, or that the game wasn't designed for and will always be hilariously broken for dueling and duoing, yet people run power anyways....

 

The biggest effect of the power nerfs is that downed state was not nerfed, giving tankier and support builds the edge, especially with the ability to fast res with stuff like illusion of life.

 

My comments here are not about whether power and condi is overpowered (The correct answer is support, as I have repeatedly said) but rather it was pretty stupid to have these placeholder changes for 18 months. But you knew that already too

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Arheundel.6451]

19 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

There is not much risk involved if the opponent does not get to fight back. And losing to backpedaling players who don't dodge seems like a l2p issue to me.

I get it, you are upset that your favourite build got butchered. But it wasn't just the Feb20 patch that hurt the spec, it has been bad prior. And builds got deleted all the time and with(pre) HoT and PoF releases in particular. At least some stuff got brought back into viability.

 

Arcane blast coeff: 0.6. Lesser Spinal Shivers coeff.: up to 0.105, can't crit. Also reapers are usually not that tanky. Most necros aren't in fact. If they are, they don't deal that much dmg. It's just those deathmagic signet core necros that take way too long to kill, luckily it is easy to just walk away from them.

It's a l2p issue when dealing with condi tanks......dieing to a 900 range glass build with no stealth and just an elite on s180s CD to escape is a balance issue, I am not quite sure about that my friend

 

 

 

P.S you may want to make an ele and check the numbers for arcane blast/wave yourself..then compare to spinal shiver...you are way wrong and that dmg coefficient means very little as you will see by yourself

Edited August 6, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Zyreva.1078]

14 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Consider the skill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blazing_Edge

 

This was a CC attack and thus the power coefficient was lowered. However, the burn damage, which is more or less the main thing about the skill wasn't touched at all, effectively making it a CC skill that still does damage.

From the link you just posted:

Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 0.8 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 3 seconds to 1 second. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds

They did nerf all dmg on cc skills (as well as in general) including condis with the aforementioned patch

 

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's a l2p issue when dealing with condi tanks......dieing to a 900 range glass build with no stealth and just an elite on s180s CD to escape is a balance issue, I am not quite sure about that my friend

Dieing to players backpedaling and not dodging is a l2p issue. Regardless of their build. That's what i said. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

*insert random yt vid of fa ele blowing up necros, because cherry picked montages totally mean something *

 

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

P.S you may want to make an ele and check the numbers for arcane blast/wave yourself..then compare to spinal shiver...you are way wrong and that dmg coefficient means very little as you will see by yourself

You are getting Spinal Shivers (focus 5) and Lesser Spinal Shivers (trait) mixed up. The latter deals no dmg and the former has a 1s cast time. Now if you would have said that Spinal Shivers could need a more visible animation, then yes, that's a reasonable argument and i'm inclined to agree. But ofc that's not a general condi and/or necro issue (could make the same argument for something like Gale). So you either have legitimatedly no idea what you are talking about and scream "nerf!" anyway, or you just make up stuff, because it fits your anti necro agenda. Bias at its best.

[God.2708]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

From the link you just posted:

Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 0.8 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 3 seconds to 1 second. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds

They did nerf all dmg on cc skills (as well as in general) including condis with the aforementioned patch

 

Dieing to players backpedaling and not dodging is a l2p issue. Regardless of their build. That's what i said. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

*insert random yt vid of fa ele blowing up necros, because cherry picked montages totally mean something *

 

You are getting Spinal Shivers (focus 5) and Lesser Spinal Shivers (trait) mixed up. The latter deals no dmg and the former has a 1s cast time. Now if you would have said that Spinal Shivers could need a more visible animation, then yes, that's a reasonable argument and i'm inclined to agree. But ofc that's not a general condi and/or necro issue (could make the same argument for something like Gale). So you either have legitimatedly no idea what you are talking about and scream "nerf!" anyway, or you just make up stuff, because it fits your anti necro agenda. Bias at its best.

 

I suppose to be fair. 1s of burn ( up to 2s with expertise) is quite a bit more damage than a .01 power coefficient. A burn guard could hit for up to 1.5k damage with a 2s burn. You aren't breaking 50 damage ever with a .01 power mod.

 

Or put another war power damage got reduced by 99% while condi damage got reduced by 66%. That can add up over a build, but certainly isn't 'not nerfed' either.

[Guirssane.7082]

On 7/3/2021 at 11:19 PM, Telgum.6071 said:

It would be as easier as deleting trailblazer and nerfing celestial.

They buffed celestial few months ago and you want to nerf it already and put it in the trash can. Let's think with our brains for a second and why not instead buff weaker specs/traits that we never see. Balancing by nerfing everything just lower the build diversity. 

[Zyreva.1078]

44 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

 

I suppose to be fair. 1s of burn ( up to 2s with expertise) is quite a bit more damage than a .01 power coefficient. A burn guard could hit for up to 1.5k damage with a 2s burn. You aren't breaking 50 damage ever with a .01 power mod.

 

Or put another war power damage got reduced by 99% while condi damage got reduced by 66%. That can add up over a build, but certainly isn't 'not nerfed' either.

More than 50 dmg with 0.01 coeff is way more likely to happen than 750 from a single burn tick. But now we are just nitpicking. Can that burn still deal more dmg? Yes. Is it relevant? No. The point is that condi dmg wasn't untouched.

 

2 minutes ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

They buffed celestial few months ago and you want to nerf it already and put it in the trash can. Let's think with our brains for a second and why not instead buff weaker specs/traits that we never see. Balancing by nerfing everything just lower the build diversity. 

Cele was fine before the buffs. Now it is plain op.

Ofc nerfing everything isn't the way to go, but if something is op, then yes, nerfs are a good way to adress that. Only ever buffing stuff does not improve balance and diversity, it just creates a never ending spiral of power creep. We have been there already.

[Guirssane.7082]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Cele was fine before the buffs. Now it is plain op.

Ofc nerfing everything isn't the way to go, but if something is op, then yes, nerfs are a good way to adress that. Only ever buffing stuff does not improve balance and diversity, it just creates a never ending spiral of power creep. We have been there already.

Let's be honest, gw2 feels impossible to balance not sure why they didn't make it a holy trinity game. It would have been way easier to balance instead of this hybrid support type game. Gw1 had more diversity and a better balance with two dedicated healer and a real Frontline. Even though some classes had access to self healing. 

 

Nerfing power coeff meant that the tanky/condi/support class would be too good, that's what happened. How do you counter that by nerfing again healing, boons, condi dmg? Never ending circle as well. By design the game can't be balanced imo. Pretty sure they gave up on balancing anything until EoD comes out. 

[Zyreva.1078]

5 minutes ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

Let's be honest, gw2 feels impossible to balance not sure why they didn't make it a holy trinity game. It would have been way easier to balance instead of this hybrid support type game. Gw1 had more diversity and a better balance with two dedicated healer and a real Frontline. Even though some classes had access to self healing. 

 

Nerfing power coeff meant that the tanky/condi/support class would be too good, that's what happened. How do you counter that by nerfing again healing, boons, condi dmg? Never ending circle as well. By design the game can't be balanced imo. Pretty sure they gave up on balancing anything until EoD comes out. 

Yes and no. A state of perfect balance is indeed impossible, the game is way too complex and extensive. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Balance just needs to be treated as ongoing process with small but frequent changes, so nothing is overbearing for too long, and there is no need to complete gut things. But ofc that requires a lot of work and the capacity and/or will to put that much effort into it is obviously not there.

[Guirssane.7082]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Yes and no. A state of perfect balance is indeed impossible, the game is way too complex and extensive. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Balance just needs to be treated as ongoing process with small but frequent changes, so nothing is overbearing for too long, and there is no need to complete gut things. But ofc that requires a lot of work and the capacity and/or will to put that much effort into it is obviously not there.

Ye I agree with that

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, God.2708 said:

 

I suppose to be fair. 1s of burn ( up to 2s with expertise) is quite a bit more damage than a .01 power coefficient. A burn guard could hit for up to 1.5k damage with a 2s burn. You aren't breaking 50 damage ever with a .01 power mod.

 

Or put another war power damage got reduced by 99% while condi damage got reduced by 66%. That can add up over a build, but certainly isn't 'not nerfed' either.

A guard would need 3500 condition damage reach 750 damage per second with burning (without any damage trait you need 4000). 3000 is pretty much the max you can do and that assumes *all* the buffs, most probably wont break 2000-2500.

Just saying.

[God.2708]

45 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

A guard would need 3500 condition damage reach 750 damage per second with burning (without any damage trait you need 4000). 3000 is pretty much the max you can do and that assumes *all* the buffs, most probably wont break 2000-2500.

Just saying.

So I misremembered and exaggerated slightly, but consider this. In order to hit 750 damage non crit with 1267 weapon strength (highest strength possible) on a light armor class you'd need 116,436 power. (with a .01 power mod)

 

Having a 10x total damage modifier(good luck, highest I think I've run across in calcs is 8.x) brings that to an easily attainable 11.6k power for a sweet sweet 750 damage crit.

 

That 3k condi damage is looking mighty reachable right now. But that's all detracting from the message. Obviously 3s to 1s of burn is less of a deduction than a 10s to 1s torment as well. My point was that condi and power did not get hit equally in that particular nerf, and small scale/1v1s is where it will be most noticeable, which is also where condi damage is also considered strongest.

Edited August 6, 2021 by God.2708

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

So I misremembered and exaggerated slightly, but consider this. In order to hit 750 damage non crit with 1267 weapon strength (highest strength possible) on a light armor class you'd need 116,436 power. (with a .01 power mod)

 

Having a 10x total damage modifier(good luck, highest I think I've run across in calcs is 8.x) brings that to an easily attainable 11.6k power for a sweet sweet 750 damage crit.

 

That 3k condi damage is looking mighty reachable right now. But that's all detracting from the message. Obviously 3s to 1s of burn is less of a deduction than a 10s to 1s torment as well. My point was that condi and power did not get hit equally in that particular nerf, and small scale/1v1s is where it will be most noticeable, which is also where condi damage is also considered strongest.

And if you wish to go into sematics just autoattacks will do 5-10x more damage than that burn stack soooooo...

[God.2708]

12 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And if you wish to go into sematics just autoattacks will do 5-10x more damage than that burn stack soooooo...

?

The original comment was about how cc skills didn't have their condi damage nerfed. It was pointed out they were, and I followed up by pointing out the nerfs weren't technically equal.

 

Of course you can auto attack for more. But if you could choose to cc someone and deal 500 damage or cc them and deal 10 which would you rather have? Especially when the original intention was for cc skills to rest on the merits of cc and not the accompanying damage. 

 

Im not trying to make a case about how overpowered condition damage is, just making an observation that I don't see considered in these discussions that could be a factor in why condition damage feels rougher to handle in small scales.

 

If anyone started the semantics it was you.

[Dawdler.8521]

14 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

?

The original comment was about how cc skills didn't have their condi damage nerfed. It was pointed out they were, and I followed up by pointing out the nerfs weren't technically equal.

 

Of course you can auto attack for more. But if you could choose to cc someone and deal 500 damage or cc them and deal 10 which would you rather have? Especially when the original intention was for cc skills to rest on the merits of cc and not the accompanying damage. 

 

Im not trying to make a case about how overpowered condition damage is, just making an observation that I don't see considered in these discussions that could be a factor in why condition damage feels rougher to handle in small scales.

 

If anyone started the semantics it was you.

But what about the exponential gain of power damage during the CC?

As in, not the CC skill doing damage but the instant power damage that can follow it, compared to a slow ramp of condis giving the CC time to expire. Then assume multiple combatants dumping instant power damage during the CC vs adding more stacks...

How is that quantified for the "nerf"?

[Spartacus.3192]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

slow ramp of condis 

"slow ramp"? what is this 2013?

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

From the link you just posted:

Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 0.8 to 0.01. Reduced burning duration from 3 seconds to 1 second. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds

They did nerf all dmg on cc skills (as well as in general) including condis with the aforementioned patch

 

 

 

Yea I saw that now. They did get nerfed. Though I think it's still better than 30 damage coming from Earthshaker vs 131 damage with 0 condi invested.

 

The reason why I was comparing the two is that the idea was that "CCs shouldn't do damage". But CC skills with condis with them will do more damage than a slow skill with 0.01 coefficient.

But yes, I missed that the condi was nerfed too.

 

I guess I'll go find another example: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prime_Light_Beam although they did murder the normal usage of this skill.

Edited August 6, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Telgum.6071]

9 hours ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

They buffed celestial few months ago and you want to nerf it already and put it in the trash can. Let's think with our brains for a second and why not instead buff weaker specs/traits that we never see. Balancing by nerfing everything just lower the build diversity. 

Using your brain passes from realizing that a stat that allows to stack the two main condition stats (condition damage and expertise) with the two main survival stats (toughness and vitality) will just lead to bunker builds that tanks everything while also allowing sustained damage or worse, condition burst, as old herald used to do.

 

And the same goes for celestial, elementalists and mesmers were already a pain to fight because of the hybrid damage + boon spam, now with expertise and concentration is even worse.

 

What are you calling build diversity? The trailblazer/celestial/Marauder meta for roaming and berserker/minstrel meta for zerging? 

 

Build diversity comes from classes and traits, not from broken stats like trailblazer, minstrel or celestial, buffing weaker specializations without acknowledging that will just lead to more unbalance.

[Guirssane.7082]

13 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Using your brain passes from realizing that a stat that allows to stack the two main condition stats (condition damage and expertise) with the two main survival stats (toughness and vitality) will just lead to bunker builds that tanks everything while also allowing sustained damage or worse, condition burst, as old herald used to do.

 

And the same goes for celestial, elementalists and mesmers were already a pain to fight because of the hybrid damage + boon spam, now with expertise and concentration is even worse.

 

What are you calling build diversity? The trailblazer/celestial/Marauder meta for roaming and berserker/minstrel meta for zerging? 

 

Build diversity comes from classes and traits, not from broken stats like trailblazer, minstrel or celestial, buffing weaker specializations without acknowledging that will just lead to more unbalance.

 

The issue isn't the celestial buff, the issue is the Feb 2020 patch that kittened every power coeff in the game without adjusting support/tanky stats, traits, specs. They did half the job. We can nerf celestial again and make it useless again sure but that won't magically solve everything

[mistsim.2748]

Well GW2 always had too many brainless pbaoe and ground targeted aoe abilities, making PvP really quite shameful and a joke. Like with the other two expansions, EoD's elite specs will entirely break the game for at least two years. I won't even be tempted to buy EoD when it launches, not this time. Move onto other games if you like PvP. Lost Ark looks incredible.

Edited August 7, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@mistsim.2748 well, the point is that rather glass cannons with singletarget are broken. could notice that in the gvg tourney not long ago, aoe's aren't even effective at 15v15 since the dmg of them comes far slower. way easier to brainded burst into single targets.

 

people always again miss the point, that a structured zerg or blobfight is twenty times more challenging and a team effort than most spvp games. till platinum rumbles, it is far from that level, at least on the stronger servers.

 

support slacks -> dmg  just dies or gets heavy cc'd, pulled, or overloaded with the condispam of some clowns

dmg slacks -> nothing of the enemy dies, leaves own squad open to just get pushed around by their pressure

 

it's a teamwork effort ideally, which is the reason why selfish builds and classes aren't welcome in good groups. they hinder you more than they help.

 

condi is still slow damage against big numbers, and useless against anything that isn't cleaving downed. if the enemy group lacks scrappers, it would be technically working.

practically however, good players who can stay on tag, understand movement and positioning and spiking, would simply not bring condi dps on purpose into squads, unless ur superbored and want to meme against easy enemy groups.

 

so once again: do not mix spvp balance or mechanics or playstyle with Wvw's largescale based possibilities. that just messes everything up

[apoko.5246]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:04 AM, lodjur.1284 said:

Heralds are less common than before, but ye dragon heal and true nature deserves nothing but nukes

Celestial Firebrand I have seen exactly 2, counting myself testing the build...

Never seen celestial scrapper but it sounds terrible

Celestial tempest I have seen 1, that was me testing the build...

That's not ganking, ganking groups would be running high mobility and high burst because they're ganking...

They're both common. 

Power is more common in all scales

Ressing traits/utilities should be nuked

Boon removal is quite strong atm, power is more common than condi, one shotting is horrible for the game

Have you tried, not standing in the AoEs or making the area too painful for them to stand in it?

The whole of WVW is now condi wars most setups are condi and to allow people to have perm condi on running around innto people is madness this started to go downhill 5 years ago when they allowed everything to be condi.

[Dawdler.8521]

9 hours ago, apoko.5246 said:

The whole of WVW is now condi wars most setups are condi and to allow people to have perm condi on running around innto people is madness this started to go downhill 5 years ago when they allowed everything to be condi.

I think you mistook the word "condi" for the word "boon". I understand, it happens. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I think you mistook the word "condi" for the word "boon". I understand, it happens. 

Removal hard cap on condies was greatest mistake a-net has done since 2012, boons are another problem that they've created with powercreeped HoT. New stats and runes from expansions, well, quite "expanded" the problem even furher.
Let's not forget about adding new condies and boons to the game, because why not. Server hamsters need to do more calculations on the same wheels...