How to Fix Druid

[Lazze.9870]

51 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

The reason you can't is because of the CC access.  From a competitive standpoint staff is the absolute best kiting weapon ranger has--it literally has everything.  Most people have no idea how to use it and thus ignore it, but it's hard to die when properly using a staff unless you get very outnumbered. 

 

Essentially Druid is competitively viable due to how good staff is, how effective CA/personal heals/stealth are, and the CC access it has...they'd have to rework all of that to increase damage potential.  I personally don't see why anyone wants that when we have soulbeast for damage.

 

I'm not talking about upping the damage that is already there that much in competetive modes either. But it could scale a bit better on a zerk amulet. Regardless, I'm not the one arguing for loading druid up with damage skills, I argued against it. I'm also perfectly well aware of what makes druid work right now.

 

Everything else aren't just fine. Glyph of Unity is a meme skill, Lingering Light could be way better designed, CA1 has been kitten since day one. Then there are a bunch of small things they could do.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

I'm not talking about upping the damage that is already there that much in competetive modes either. But it could scale a bit better on a zerk amulet. Regardless, I'm not the one arguing for loading druid up with damage skills, I argued against it. I'm also perfectly well aware of what makes druid work right now.

 

Everything else aren't just fine. Glyph of Unity is a meme skill, Lingering Light could be way better designed, CA1 has been kitten since day one. Then there are a bunch of small things they could do.

 

Yeah there are nitpicky things, but those exist on every class. 

 

Like outside of staff #2 and yeah CA1 I don't see anything that just 'doesn't work'.  The glyphs work plenty fine--sure unity is a 'meme' but it worked well enough in its role to get a nerf not too long ago.  

 

I just don't see anything that needs redesigned--I mean the original point of this topic was that druid should have access to more plants instead of celestial bodies.  Visuals, but then became mechanics, and the usual's show up: 'druid is useless because no dps', 'ancient seeds hurt me', etc.  So to me its a matter of the community learning what druid currently can do in the present and not what druid should be doing.  

[Lazze.9870]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yeah there are nitpicky things, but those exist on every class. 

 

Other classes with elite specs leaning towards support have viable support builds in competetive modes.

 

When druid isn't competetively viable at doing one of the things it was meant to do while being loaded with stuff that are either trash, niche or unrefined, I think there is about time Anet takes a look at it. At that point there should be a kittening lightbulb flashing somewhere at their office.

 

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Like outside of staff #2 and yeah CA1 I don't see anything that just 'doesn't work'.

 

I have already gone through several things that lie between "not working" and being such low hanging fruit they might as well touch the ground, so I'm not gonna repeat myself there.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Other classes with elite specs leaning towards support have viable support builds in competetive modes.

 

When druid isn't competetively viable at doing one of the things it was meant to do while being loaded with stuff that are either trash, niche or unrefined, I think there is about time Anet takes a look at it. At that point there should be a kittening lightbulb flashing somewhere at their office.

 

 

I have already gone through several things that lie between "not working" and being such low hanging fruit they might as well touch the ground, so I'm not gonna repeat myself there.

 

I mean, you're asking too much for a spec to have both great group healing potential and great solo potential--in a single build at that.  I mean healbrand and medikit scrapper are top healers but you don't see them roaming around on their own all that often, if really ever.  

 

The problem with druid is it is extremely competent at selfish play (really all ranger specs are), and to change it to more group oriented you'd have to give some of that power up.  They've nerfed healing a few times because of this exact issue--I don't think reversion is the path that they have in mind.  

 

Basically what I personally don't want is things like staff #4, celestial shadow, ancient seeds (to a degree), etc. messed with for the sake of more group healing--that just leaves a mess.  And they will tackle those because there has to be compensation if we go down the 'support' route.  

 

Essentially what they started out with is not possible, druid cannot be both a competent healer and competent CC / roamer all in one.  

[Lazze.9870]

On 7/14/2021 at 6:02 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I mean, you're asking too much for a spec to have both great group healing potential and great solo potential--in a single build at that

 

I have never asked for anything that would give it the potential to be both of those in a single build. I'm talking about refining a trait like Lingering Light to make druid better suited for healing, a trait that directly competes with Ancient Seeds. I'm talking about making Glyph of the Stars better to use, to make Glyph of Unity not a meme. I have asked for CA1 to feel better to use and to increase the radius of CA2 - not becasue it would buff a solo druid, but because it would make the the support aspect better/easier.

 

I have asked for staff 2 to be something useful, like a ground targeted attack with aoe heal pulses after the initial damge. Esseintially the same thing, but better to use. I have asked for staff 5 to be slightly larger. I have never said anything about changing staff 4. I like it the way it is.

 

I have asked for changes that advocate use of other traits than Druidic Clarity, Celestial Shadow and Ancient Seeds (I have suggested changes to all those traits, but changes to DC and CS would only apply if they did a proper redesign of the spec - that's not something I'm expecting). I have asked for better healing power scaling where needed, not better base healing. I have asked for Nature Magic to offer some synergy that would provide better group support; Evasive Purity to apply aoe cleanse, Invigorating Bond to not suck.

 

So no, I'm not asking for druid to be a great group healer with good solo potential in one and the same build. Would you roam around with Lingering Light and a full set of minstrel gear and Glyph of the Stars on your bar? No, you wouldn't. The same reason a scrapper wouldn't roam around on his zerg support build.

 

You're content with running the same three old traits in pvp/wvw forever and ever, and dumbing down the mechanic to mostly be a disengangement tool. Good for you. I'm simply asking for druid to have the potential to be a competent support character outside of pve. Not meta, just competent. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Would you roam around with Lingering Light and a full set of minstrel gear and Glyph of the Stars on your bar? No, you wouldn't. The same reason a scrapper wouldn't roam around on his zerg support build.

 

I think this could still be pretty effective-sure you'd lose ancient seeds and entangle but could still rack up some good damage with the bleeds you still have / and annoy people with roots from staff #4 and pet CC's.

 

Dunno, might make for some fun memes...

[Shiyo.3578]

Remove celestial avatar and give f1-f5 the scourge treatment.

 

Celestial avatar is why druid sucks to play outside of raids.

[anduriell.6280]

10 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Remove celestial avatar and give f1-f5 the scourge treatment.

 

Celestial avatar is why druid sucks to play outside of raids.

100% correct. 

 

[Lazze.9870]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think this could still be pretty effective-sure you'd lose ancient seeds and entangle but could still rack up some good damage with the bleeds you still have / and annoy people with roots from staff #4 and pet CC's.

 

Yeah, minstrel stat is gonna amount to a lot of bleeding damage, especially without entangle and ancient seeds in your build.

 

Meme, yes. Effective? Not really.

[Aeolus.3615]

11 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Remove celestial avatar and give f1-f5 the scourge treatment.

 

Celestial avatar is why druid sucks to play outside of raids.

 

That actually would be dope i guess

 

Btw for those who say boost staff damage with zerker dont forget how staff autos work, its a " range melee" weapon since wont be reflected nor abosrved.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

On 7/15/2021 at 12:22 AM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Remove celestial avatar and give f1-f5 the scourge treatment.

 

Celestial avatar is why druid sucks to play outside of raids.

 

I disagree with removal of celestial avatar, it is virtually only thing that sets gw2 druids apart from overdone dnd copy-paste druid/shamans.

 

I could agree with overhauling CA avatar mechanics, as they are a little bit wonky as it is right now, but keep it in

[anduriell.6280]

At this point rework druid to work as a healing scourge would be the best thing they can do for this class. 

I can't see any other way where CA can be useful outside from raids otherwise. 

[Lazze.9870]

5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I can't see any other way where CA can be useful outside from raids otherwise

 

Make it work like Holoforge with a "reverse heat management" that draws from your astral force pool. Remove the cooldown. Rework traits that are affected. That way you can still keep the idea of the mechanic, but use it in a much more reactive way. 

 

Pretty much anything is better than the current design, especially with the increased cooldown in PvP.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Make it work like Holoforge with a "reverse heat management" that draws from your astral force pool. Remove the cooldown. Rework traits that are effected. That way you can still keep the idea of the mechanic, but use it in a much more reactive way. 

 

Pretty much anything is better than the current design, especially with the increased cooldown in PvP.

I like it too. The CD paired with the limited life span is really annoying and makes the mechanic so clunky. 

[starlinvf.1358]

14 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

I disagree with removal of celestial avatar, it is virtually only thing that sets gw2 druids apart from overdone dnd copy-paste druid/shamans.

 

I could agree with overhauling CA avatar mechanics, as they are a little bit wonky as it is right now, but keep it in

 

14 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

At this point rework druid to work as a healing scourge would be the best thing they can do for this class. 

I can't see any other way where CA can be useful outside from raids otherwise. 

 

 

CA's real problem is that it has all of Death Shroud's problems, but none of the benefits.  In order to use CA, you need to meet 2 requirements IN FULL:   Off cool down, and full CE.   That second requirement is what hurts its work flow.  When fully drained, CE takes too long to rebuild without a large group to generate healing off of.  When not fully drained, the cool down timer makes popping it for one skill a huge waste.   And even when in CA mode, the skills VERY clunky and inflexible for such a huge commitment window.

 

This whole situation be explained in the parallels to Ele Conjures.  Its setup in a way where you only pop it for one or two skill casts, then try to get out of it as fast as possible.  But this makes it so unreliable, that you're either saving it explicitly to cast those 2 skills, or using it in a maintenance rotation because being reactive would be counter productive. 

 

If CA worked like more like Death Shroud, but CE and the skills worked like Rev energy cost, than that would go a long way to fixing the clunky nature of CA.   The next issue that would need addressing are the cast times of the skills. 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

On 7/17/2021 at 12:46 AM, starlinvf.1358 said:

If CA worked like more like Death Shroud, but CE and the skills worked like Rev energy cost, than that would go a long way to fixing the clunky nature of CA.   The next issue that would need addressing are the cast times of the skills. 

 

I could get behind this angle of trying to fix it 🙂

[Aeolus.3615]

On 7/14/2021 at 11:22 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Remove celestial avatar and give f1-f5 the scourge treatment.

 

Celestial avatar is why druid sucks to play outside of raids.

 

That would be interesting imo , still i think would be a bit clunky due pet sF keys.

 

Note that  Druid also uses pet F1, F2, so keep CA on f5 but would work like a legend that could be activated or disabled.

Players would only gain pip regen on CA astral force when tuned into CA activated, with it off would be a normal ranger not generating astral force, since would start at 50%, just like revs energy works, when exiting CA   put a 12sec+ CD into it, this way players could focus on roles better imo.

 

Something like swap between druid more and celestial avatar mode.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Lazze.9870]

3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That would be interesting imo , still i think would be a bit clunky due pet sF keys.

 

Druid with the scourge treatment would probably not have a pet to begin with, and the F keys would be affected by traits. It's a significant rework. Which is why I suggested the holoforge treatment as a different alternative that would provide more reactive play without having to rework the pet portion (not that I'd be against a pet-less rework, I'd probably prefer it so that druid could be more focused as a support and team player).

 

Either way, the combination of astral force, a cooldown (and a hefty one in pvp), consuming astral force just for entering, and the wonky CA skills all contribute to a mechanic that doesn't really work as intended. But Anet seems content with its pve role where it "works", as for the rest of the modes you go in and out to proc Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow, maybe using one or two skills before leaving it.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Aeolus.3615]

8 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Druid with the scourge treatment would probably not have a pet to begin with,(stop right here) 😄

yeah, a petless rework... PoF elite was already the ranger w/o pet 😄

[Lazze.9870]

17 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

yeah, a petless rework... PoF elite was already the ranger w/o pet 😄

 

No, it wasn't. It was the ranger that can merge with the pet. Or not merge with it. Back and forth. A petless ranger wouldn't have a pet to begin with. It wouldn't interact with the pet mechanic.

 

If soulbeast is the only spec that will ever resemble a petless ranger (it isn't petless), then Anet is gonna have a real hard time coming up with e-specs down the line. The way druid basically is core ranger with a tacked on secondary mechanic is a major contributer to why it is in the state it currently is.

 

You're putting a hard limit on what a ranger e-spec can if you think soulbeast made any other petless ranger e-spec impossible. If anything, soulbeast laid the technical groundwork so that Anet easier can make a petless ranger spec in the future. Which they should, the pet mechanic is far too limiting to create diversive specs with diversive roles. I hope Anet doesn't have the same mentality of "we already did the no pet spec", and I despise the ideas people have of having one stronger pet or multiple pets out at the same time - those stink bad for pve, useless for wvw other than being yet another roamer spec, and nerfbat in pvp.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Zyreva.1078]

I don't think there will ever be a true petless ranger. The pet is what defines a ranger in this game, it is the class mechanic, everything is designed arround the pet. Might as well play a different class, if you want something petless.

And pets don't have to hold a class back, they don't have to be a hindrance. They can be a great asset. So it would make more sense to think about how to improve the viability and versatility of pets, not just about how to remove them.

This is true for druid in particular. Pets (smokescale and bristleback to be more specific) single handedly carried the entire spec through HoT times and where the main reason why the class was meta in PvP/WvW roaming for a while. It is also the reason why gutted pet stats are such a stupid "trade-off". It wouldn't be as bad if it only affected their dmg, but survivability also took a hit, essentially turning druid into a "pet-less" ranger most of the time anyway.

 

What i would like to see:

 

Pets become invulnerable while in passive mode. The moment they attack and/or the F2 ability is used they become vulnerable as usual. This would allow core and druid to keep pets alive without turning them into an uncounterable passive "DoT/CC bot" in 1vs1. It rewads proper pet management and makes them usable for larger scale battles.

 

Improvements to supportive pets (not talking about the slb archetype, but about any pet that mainly offers support and/or utility) and supportive traits (NM in particular) to improve druids support capabilities without going back to tank builds that can kill players with dmg pets.

 

Slightly larger radius to some druid skills. 180 radius simply does not work well outside of stationary encounters and it is one of the reasons why druid has never been a meta grp support for PvP/WvW (other support specs have 300 - 600 range on most of their important stuff with maybe some 240 radius skills).

 

Rework ancient seeds to make it more useful for large scale and less kittenous in small scale.

 

It is abolutely possible to improve druid and turn it into a viable PvP/WvW support spec without reworking the entire class or removing it's class mechanic (and potentially hurting other ranger specs in the process).

Edited July 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Aeolus.3615]

4 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

No, it wasn't. It was the ranger that can merge with the pet. Or not merge with it. Back and forth. A petless ranger wouldn't have a pet to begin with. It wouldn't interact with the pet mechanic.

 

(...)

 

Not what i recall from dev's talking about souldbeast i remember something like  "players want a ranger without pet so we arrenged soulbeast"

 

Note: ranger will never get rided of thet pet according to Anet so far, that's my interpretation of their comments.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Lazze.9870]

45 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Not what i recall from dev's talking about souldbeast i remember something like  "players want a ranger without pet so we arrenged soulbeast"

 

Note: ranger will never get rided of thet pet according to Anet so far, that's my interpretation of their comments.

 

Well, ye, it creates a way to play without the pet if you so wish. But it still uses the pet mechanic. You don't play permamerged unless you're in pve or zerging in wvw.

 

It's not truly petless, and I don't see any way of making diverse ranger elite specs with clear roles that it can actual perform at a decent level if it always has to have the core mechanic tied to it. A lesser version of it at that, given the trade-offs they implemented, which I think was fine on soulbeast, but a complete afterthought on druid. 

 

To me soulbeast only proves they can do it completely petless, and laid the groundwork for how a petless ranger should interact with traits and weapons that affect the pet. I don't expect a completely petless ranger, but there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it. Another comment they made about soulbeast is that they couldn't make "no pet" work before, which I think was something they enitially wanted to do with druid.

 

From the perspective of what ranger needs, an entirely petless spec certainly has a better chance at giving it some viability for wvw and be a better teamfighter in pvp. If they go with the pet mechanic again, it will be more of the same the class can already do while at the same time not being able to outdps soulbeast (most likely) in pve. At that point you gotta ask what the point of it is, other than flavor.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

17 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Not what i recall from dev's talking about souldbeast i remember something like  "players want a ranger without pet so we arrenged soulbeast"

 

Note: ranger will never get rided of thet pet according to Anet so far, that's my interpretation of their comments.

Irenio specifically pointed out there is no plans to have a petless ranger, even soulbeast was originally designed have a constant flow of in and out from the beastmode. 

 

Which makes sense if anybody wants a petless ranger go play other classes, it is not like you don't have the choice. 

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Which makes sense if anybody wants a petless ranger go play other classes, it is not like you don't have the choice. 

 

Anet has a choice. They have the tech for it. The players don't have a choice. There is no other class that can substitute it, especially not a thematic level. I don't enjoy playing DH for traps and their bow, I don't enjoy playing Ventari rev which is the closest thing you'd get to a druid.

 

But if they want ranger to be utter trash at everything it currently can't do, then sure. Keep the dumb pet mechanic around for every elite spec.