Removal of Reflect

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

The majority of rangers in wvw are trash and don't play ranger the way it should be played to be most efficient in a squad.

I have to second this. The amount of rangers in WvW that don't notice Corrosive Poison Cloud destroying their Rapid Fire or don't realize that Hunter's Shot doesn't break targeting during my DPS channels makes me cringe. Now Good Rangers? You'll never touch them and they'll burst you down before you can counter them.

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

If the new spec comes with a good hammer, it will be melee based and probably work best with GS (or double axes if you want some ranged options in the build without losing your melee momentum). Longbow peaked with soulbeast - it is ineffective now and it won't be any better on a different spec.

Ranger needs a new two handed melee weapon. Hammer should be melee, should have 1 or 2 evades, 1 AoE knockdown, and 1 very short CD AoE damage skill that does increased damage to knockdowned targets. I stand by my comments in another thread that the new spec should get a shadowstep on F5.

Longbow definitely peaked with Soulbeast, and I feel like the new spec will be a heavy melee oriented spec.

[anduriell.6280]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I have to second this. The amount of rangers in WvW that don't notice Corrosive Poison Cloud destroying their Rapid Fire or don't realize that Hunter's Shot doesn't break targeting during my DPS channels makes me cringe. Now Good Rangers? You'll never touch them and they'll burst you down before you can counter them.

That's because LoD tick box removes the effects from the screen, so most of the times a ranger can not see if there is a bubble or wall on the way and only realize it if the projectiles are reflected. 

 

Projectile destruction is a funny topic, you see plain terrain also blocks projectiles, sometimes it doesn't give any feedback. So the ranger can not be sure if the numbers aren't showing because there is a corrosive cloud or simply they are being blocked by random stuff. Hunter's shot also has a super annoying feature which if your target is not directly in front of you goes directly into CD. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Ranger needs a new two handed melee weapon. Hammer should be melee, should have 1 or 2 evades, 1 AoE knockdown, and 1 very short CD AoE damage skill that does increased damage to knockdowned targets. I stand by my comments in another thread that the new spec should get a shadowstep on F5.

Longbow definitely peaked with Soulbeast, and I feel like the new spec will be a heavy melee oriented spec.

I do agree with the general sentiment here, still i foresee  longbow or Axe/Axe still will be used with the Hammer.

Unless the new spec is a bunker druid 2.0 that is.

 

Realistically I am kinda tired of playing for 9 years with the same 4  weapons and the same 2 traitlines after all.  I do like sword but the offhand weapons feel so lacklustre in pvp. 

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It was needed  because ranger does not play like a rifle berserker. Never saw a thread complaining about ranger's unblockable uptime. 

 

Actually i think reflect is ok for the game. The adjustment of unblockables is what is needed to be balanced profession by profession. 

Ranger needs more access to unblockable, warrior may have too much, DE may need the current ranger approach a long CD skill for burst damage..  

 

Nades aren't impacted much by reflects because they are ground AoEs, so the nade doesn't need to hit the reflect. Engie in general works a lot with AoEs effects instead projectiles as profession mechanic. Ranger is the exact opposite, it uses projectiles even when there shouldn't be  any (like warhorn). 

 

 

 

 

 

What about rifle on engi? aren't some stuff projectiles?

[bigo.9037]

Ranger has one of the worst tools to deal with reflects. 40s useless passive signet that lasts for 6 hits…

 

” just make good build choices “ ok just pick different class then? Or what about don’t like aspect of game? Just quit bro.

 You’re homeless? Just buy a house lol.

 

 You can’t tell ppl to make better build choices when the choices are not available equally between classes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That's because LoD tick box removes the effects from the screen, so most of the times a ranger can not see if there is a bubble or wall on the way and only realize it if the projectiles are reflected. 

 

Projectile destruction is a funny topic, you see plain terrain also blocks projectiles, sometimes it doesn't give any feedback. So the ranger can not be sure if the numbers aren't showing because there is a corrosive cloud or simply they are being blocked by random stuff. Hunter's shot also has a super annoying feature which if your target is not directly in front of you goes directly into CD. 

Not to mention dead Dolyaks.

 

Still, though letting a whole Rapid Fire go off into CPC along with followup shots lets me know that I'm getting a free bag while playing my Reaper.

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

 

I do agree with the general sentiment here, still i foresee  longbow or Axe/Axe still will be used with the Hammer.

Unless the new spec is a bunker druid 2.0 that is.

Hammer, at least how I envision it with aoe knockdown, aoe dps, and an evade, would pair well with any meta set, and would be a great double melee weapon.

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Realistically I am kinda tired of playing for 9 years with the same 4  weapons and the same 2 traitlines after all.  I do like sword but the offhand weapons feel so lacklustre in pvp. 

Think how warriors feel about greatsword + x/shield and needing discipline to function.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

30 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

What about rifle on engi? aren't some stuff projectiles?

Rifle, MH pistol, Grenades, Mortar, Tossed Elixirs, Egun skills 1+2+5, Flamethrower skills 2+4, most of the turrets, and various parts of holo are all shut down by projectile denial. Even though most of these are AoE in effect, the AoEs are created where projectiles land, which can be blocked/reflected.

 

Even though this is a lot of stuff it is a lot more noticable in PvP, where a Weaver's Swirling Winds can completely stop you from healing/giving yourself boons. Generally speaking, in WvW engineer has enough other stuff that is good enough to give it a place in zergs (bomb kit/medkit).

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Ranger has one of the worst tools to deal with reflects. 40s useless passive signet that lasts for 6 hits…

Or all those melee weapons you are ignoring ... so easy to forget it seems 🙄. 

Quote

 

” just make good build choices “ ok just pick different class then? Or what about don’t like aspect of game? Just quit bro.

 You’re homeless? Just buy a house lol.

 

 You can’t tell ppl to make better build choices when the choices are not available equally between classes.

That doesn't make sense. You CAN tell ppl to make better build choices because they ARE available. What is "available equally between classes" (whatever that means) has NOTHING to do with the choices you can make and use. You DON'T have access to melee weapons? You sure as hell do. They aren't even bad ones. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

31 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Or all those melee weapons you are ignoring ... so easy to forget it seems 🙄. 

That doesn't make sense. You CAN tell ppl to make better build choices because they ARE available. What is "available equally between classes" (whatever that means) has NOTHING to do with the choices you can make and use. You DON'T have access to melee weapons? You sure as hell do. They aren't even bad ones. 

I’m talking about access to unblockable effects. 
Oh ok so now any ranged weapon built for DPS other than herald should just be forced to play melee cus of overtuned access to reflects by blobs? Seems like a good idea to enforce melee only. Definitely a good idea to just ignore all the other various roles that could be played if ranged was actually on par or even just CLOSE with melee in general.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

I’m talking about access to unblockable effects. 
 

OK ... but attacks from melee weapons are not blocked by reflects ... so why do you think it's reasonable to exclude them in your argument that people shouldn't consider that in the builds they make? There is no argument that classes don't have access to melee weapons, therefore ... MOAR unblockable ranged skills PLZ. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but attacks from melee weapons are not blocked by reflects ... so why do you think it's reasonable to exclude them in your argument that people shouldn't consider that in the builds they make? There is no argument that classes don't have access to melee weapons, therefore ... MOAR unblockable ranged skills PLZ. 

No? I’m in favor of buffs that can distinguish between reflect removal and unblockable. Say, if SoH was anti reflect with ranged weapon or unblockable on melee set. Could be utility bar, traits that proc under certain conditions or an elite for ranger or other ranged classes like ele or mesmer that isn’t a mere buff but perhaps something similar to rev elites or the holo lazer elite) 

 

or… you know. Could just tune down the amount of spammable reflect available to FB and scrapper meta? Idk. Either one is fine. But stop reaching, having the majority of the blob combat be melee or red ring focused is boring cus there’s a lack of variety, it’s not just hurdur i want RF to instagib enemy tag.

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

No? I’m in favor of buffs that can distinguish between reflect removal and unblockable. Say, if SoH was anti reflect with ranged weapon or unblockable on melee set. Could be utility bar, traits that proc under certain conditions or an elite for ranger or other ranged classes like ele or mesmer that isn’t a mere buff but perhaps something similar to rev elites or the holo lazer elite) 

 

or… you know. Could just tune down the amount of spammable reflect available to FB and scrapper meta? Idk. Either one is fine. But stop reaching, having the majority of the blob combat be melee or red ring focused is boring cus there’s a lack of variety, it’s not just hurdur i want RF to instagib enemy tag.

You can imagine all kinds of things Anet could do. That's not the relevant question here. The question is IF Anet needs to do something ... and the answer is no because 'reflects' is already solved by lots of methods that everyone has access to. 

 

The fact here is this; people complaining about reflects simply don't want to figure out how to incorporate melee weapons into their builds. That's not a problem for Anet to solve. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

28 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You can imagine all kinds of things Anet could do. That's not the relevant question here. The question is IF Anet needs to do something ... and the answer is no because 'reflects' is already solved by lots of methods that everyone has access to. 

 

The fact here is this; people complaining about reflects simply don't want to figure out how to incorporate melee weapons into their builds. That's not a problem for Anet to solve. 

Well I’m not talking about that. Also, no, not everyone has easy access to unblockable. 
 

What I’m talking about is making ranged combat just slightly more viable in larger scale combat. Regardless of class. you’re right though. I don’t wanna settle for “just play melee”. I think ranged combat needs to have it’s place. And it’s kinda sad to see the “hunter, archer, ranger” class in this game being utterly terrible at dealing meaningful ranged dmg to more than 1 pug standing outside the blob. All rangers are good for in wvw medium to large scale combat, is sniping thieves and other rangers. There are many specs that have better melee for large scale than ranger.. and ranger, among other classes, shouldn’t have to attempt to take their place cus it just doesn’t fit well thematically. 
 

picture a battle field. Who is front line? Heavy armor classes. Then there are lights which can be backline, and medium which can fill midline with a few exceptions here and there. Currently, there seems to be 0 midline and a TINY backline with weavers casting aoes and maybe heralds with hammer. I want to increase the combat diversity. But sure, let’s just be completely binary and tell everyone to compete for the same melee spots in squad, that makes total sense.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Well I’m not talking about that. Also, no, not everyone has easy access to unblockable. 
 

What I’m talking about is making ranged combat just slightly more viable in larger scale combat.

OK so basically, you are off topic. That's OK ... there is a reasonable response to 'ranged effectiveness' as well ...

 

That happens BY DESIGN; there are intrinsic advantages to being ranged and it's very reasonable these are balanced against melee encounters so players have meaningful choices to play how they want. So again ... does Anet need to do something? Nope, they already did it. That difference in 'viability' is already considered because if it wasn't you WOULDN'T have reflects and other effects to balance them all. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

22 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Or all those melee weapons you are ignoring ... so easy to forget it seems 🙄. 

That doesn't make sense. You CAN tell ppl to make better build choices because they ARE available. What is "available equally between classes" (whatever that means) has NOTHING to do with the choices you can make and use. You DON'T have access to melee weapons? You sure as hell do. They aren't even bad ones. 

 

note: Wiki says its 10 unblockable hits  for 6 seconds.

 

If i recall ranger as good access to quickness....

 

One thing i note is that most rangers besides 6 skill that is the healing skill they expect to have every thing else  for damage output W/O preparing themselves to find counters or defenses againt range.

Ranger LB  does very good damage  when players know how to use it well.

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Jski.6180]

I still say making the reflect it self an type of attk with a 600 ish range will both keep the effect of reflect relevant and not be so powerful that a ranger or other ranged attk class where they can not attk into a group with fear of self death.

 

Counter  attks work this way in this game where they do not fire back the same skill at the person hitting them but they hit with there own skill with its own effect and range.

[anduriell.6280]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:54 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

note: Wiki says its 10 unblockable hits  for 6 seconds.

If i recall ranger as good access to quickness....

One thing i note is that most rangers besides 6 skill that is the healing skill they expect to have every thing else  for damage output W/O preparing themselves to find counters or defenses againt range.

Ranger LB  does very good damage  when players know how to use it well.

It has been explained in this thread multiple times why that design doesn't work with the ranger profession. 

 

Aren't the stacks consumed for each hit with piercing arrows? So that 40s CD signet only serves for 2 autoattacks. Not counting additional effects like predators cunning or one wolf pack which i think also consume stacks. 

 

Definitely ranger needs more consistent access to unblockables when using  projectile weapons. there is no point to keep talking no sense about this, i think it is clear at this point.

 

Other classes also need more access like DE, others need the unblockable access nerfed like warrior (with it's 10 stacks every 10s) .

 

Why should warrior have so much access to unblockable when they only have rifle to benefit from it .

 

That should be the real question. 

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

42 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It has been explained in this thread multiple times why that design doesn't work with the ranger profession. 

 

Aren't the stacks consumed for each hit with piercing arrows? So that 40s CD signet only serves for 2 autoattacks. Not counting additional effects like predators cunning or one wolf pack which i think also consume stacks. 

 

Definitely ranger needs more consistent access to unblockables when using  projectile weapons. there is no point to keep talking no sense about this, i think it is clear at this point.

 

Other classes also need more access like DE, others need the unblockable access nerfed like warrior (with it's 10 stacks every 10s) .

 

Why should warrior have so much access to unblockable when they only have rifle to benefit from it .

 

That should be the real question. 

 

 

Unblockable benefits more than just rifle, as in it benefits every weapon.

 

Warrior is supposed to be able to heavily pressure someone 1v1 and the unblockables are supposed to be apart of that. However, CMC overnerfed warrior DPS mainly due to the hard cc damage nerf, Signet Mastery is in a outdated traitline and is taken for the ferocity boost since the unblockable part only activates when you hit a foe under 50%, and Signet of Might rarely gets taken since there needs to be condi cleanse, stunbreaks, and survival utilities on the bar in order to fight in melee since Anet refuses to let warrior have decent ranged pressure.

On paper it looks like 10 stacks of unblockable every 10s, but you'll never see that, especially if the warrior takes Signet Mastery. Why would they take Signet of Might when they get it for free on auto cast? Bad build craft right there. 

[anduriell.6280]

10 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

On paper it looks like 10 stacks of unblockable every 10s, but you'll never see that, especially if the warrior takes Signet Mastery. Why would they take Signet of Might when they get it for free on auto cast? Bad build craft right there. 

Ok so we agree the professions are not like they look on paper. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by anduriell.6280
grammar

[The Boz.2038]

Dat warrior special pleading, sheesh!

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Ok so we agree every profession is not like it looks on paper. 

I see what you did there.

That doesn't change anything in regards to the thread discussion though. Ranger has the tool to get their LB burst off risk free.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Dat warrior special pleading, sheesh!

 

You really let your feelings get hurt that your thread didn't go over well didn't you?

[The Boz.2038]

Very few actual viable arguments have been made against my proposal. I'd say it's going rather well.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Very few actual viable arguments have been made against my proposal. I'd say it's going rather well.

Then you must not have been reading your own thread...

 

Still, you spoke your piece. Maybe CMC read it and agreed, maybe not.

[anduriell.6280]

24 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That doesn't change anything in regards to the thread discussion though. Ranger has the tool to get their LB burst off risk free.

So funny at least you use the singular as only one "the tool". 

 

I already explained why that "the tool" does not perform for ranger. It would be good if you could read the rest of the comments in the thread. 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

So funny at least you use the singular as only one "the tool". 

 

I already explained why that "the tool" does not perform for ranger. It would be good if you could read the rest of the comments in the thread. 

 

Because "the tool" is unblockable. I've read the thread, it devolved almost immediately into ranger memeland and got called out as such promptly by players that play more than just ranger.