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What Happens to the Dwarves?


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I'm not sure how I feel about returning dwarves. I have no problem with them per say but they were gone and no one had seen any of them for hundreds of years even though Destroyers still reached the surface. That implied a tragic sacrifice to buy time for the rest of us. Now the implication is they were slacking on the job. Lol

... and it's another "yes but no" to the old Lore...

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3 hours ago, Harak.8397 said:

Now the implication is they were slacking on the job.

Uhh no it isn't?

 

The dwarves are fundamentally limited in number, since they can't reproduce. Whereas Primordus can just endlessly make new destroyers, since he doesn't rely on corrupting things to increase his numbers. It was inevitable that the ever dwindling number of dwarves would be unable to totally contain the Destroyers underground forever.

 

That has nothing to do with slacking on the job... I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion.

10 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They'll probably go back underground to fight the remaining Destroyers.

Probably this. We asaw in the cutscene all the way back in core that stone Dwarves partook in the early fights against Zhaitan. Once the Destroyers are finally taken care of the Dwarves will likely shift focus onto eliminating the remaining Risen, Mordrem, Branded, and Icebrood, until the last remnants of the Elder Dragon's forces are finally gone. This will likely takes decades, if not longer, given how the Risen, Mordrem, and Branded, didn't just drop dead like a lot of the Destroyers/Icebrood did.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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In GW1, the Dwarves swore to fight the Destroyers to the last in order to keep them from reaching the surface. Undergoing the rite of the great dwarf to do so. That they (destroyers) did break out made their sacrifice all the more real to me. The Dwarves had fought to the last and bought us some 200  years with their lives but now the minions of Primordus had powered through. It was a dignified ( if tragic) end to a proud race and brought weight to the struggle. Now it's just meh, they were there fighting in the deeps and no one saw them for 200 years. Ok. 

 Story wise, I just don't see why they had to be brought back. In 200+ years of fighting destroyers, their numbers should have been whittled down to nothing by now precisely because the Destroyers are numberless.  I don't know how to explain it but it just feels to me like having so many of them reappear now sort of robs Ogden and Rohban of their "mystique" and weakens the old lore that had established they were gone forever save for one or two of them.  It feels ...lazy?

UNLESS, they ( the writers) double down on it and the Stone Dwarves reintroduce the actual technique for crafting genuine Deldrimor steel to the world ( what we are using is , again going by pre established lore, an approximation of the original method ) among other things. Furthermore, the Dredge should have an opinion on the matter of their former slavemasters reappearing near the surface. That would require addressing too.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/11/2021 at 6:36 AM, Harak.8397 said:

Story wise, I just don't see why they had to be brought back. In 200+ years of fighting destroyers, their numbers should have been whittled down to nothing by now precisely because the Destroyers are numberless. 

I think this might be a pretty accurate assumption. In LW3, we meet two of the living dwarves.

In Igneous Breach, we meet Rhoban, an we say to him exactly that "Didn't expect to encounter your kind out here. I thought the dwarves were wiped out in their fight against Primordus.". He didn't confirm it nor deny it then. Later he said that he might be the last dwarf despite skritt believing that there's another one at Durmand Priory. The other one being of course Ogden.

It is fair to assume that more than two dwarves survived that endless battle. I'm not saying that we would suddenly see hundreds of dwarves running around ofc...

Edited by NotTooFoolish.7412
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On 7/26/2021 at 1:39 PM, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

I think this might be a pretty accurate assumption. In LW3, we meet two of the living dwarves.

In Igneous Breach, we meet Rhoban, an we say to him exactly that "Didn't expect to encounter your kind out here. I thought the dwarves were wiped out in their fight against Primordus.". He didn't confirm it nor deny it then. Later he said that he might be the last dwarf despite skritt believing that there's another one at Durmand Priory. The other one being of course Ogden.

It is fair to assume that more than two dwarves survived that endless battle. I'm not saying that we would suddenly see hundreds of dwarves running around ofc...

 

A small army’s worth at least survived since they fought alongside us in the Thunderhead Dragon Response Mission. And that isnt including the remnants of what was left in Forging with Steel

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I am still kind of sad they did not cover more about the Stone Summit but guess they had to rush the story to get into EoD and the finale of the Elder Dragon storyline by EoD or the Living world after so they can finally move on to a new storyline that is no longer tied to Elder Dragons and GW1 in some way.

I won't lie, I am also happy as well the Elder Dragon story is ending and a new story begins because now we can finally start going into the other 80% of the GW2 world that we have no lore for which gives the developers more freedom into exploring and creating new lore for those regions we have never been to since we have been stuck in the same locations since GW1 and less need to tie in the story into something from GW1. 

Edited by EdwinLi.1284
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I don't really know what else they could have done with the Stone Summit.

They resisted the Rite of the Great Dwarf as best as they could.

Eventually they Primordus' magic to try and undo said Rite, turning into mindless magma Dwarves defending their ruins.

 

I don't think they became actual minions of Primordus though, as Primordus doesn't make use of any corrupted life forms.

The Destroyers might just have been attracted to the magma Dwarves because the sensed Primordus' magic within them.

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4 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I won't lie, I am also happy as well the Elder Dragon story is ending and a new story begins because now we can finally start going into the other 80% of the GW2 world that we have no lore for which gives the developers more freedom into exploring and creating new lore for those regions we have never been to since we have been stuck in the same locations since GW1 and less need to tie in the story into something from GW1. 

I am almost entirely certain we wont be seeing much, if any, other parts of the world. Even after EoD.

 

When the Elder Dragons last woke they managed to consume almost all life on the planet, with only a handful of races being secreted away by Glint, and a handful of other surviving via other methods like the Kodan. This left the world vastly depopulated, and, in many respects, uninhabited.

 

We can see this in Cantha. Outside of the non-native humans, Cantha really only has three intelligent races. The Naga, the Tengu, and the Wardens. And the Wardens themselves are implied to be magical humans akin to druid, so likely don't count as truly nonhuman natives. Before the Jade Wind the Naga lived in the Jade Sea, and while we don't know what all the Tengu originally claimed as their own, the fact that its stated that tensions with the Tengu only really began to rise after the Jade Wind, and the need to settle Shing Jea more, suggests that the Tengu were largely confined to Shing Jea themselves. This means the vast majority of the Canthan continent would have been entirely uninhabited, or not inhabited to any significant degree. Which explains how huamntiy was so quickly able to move in and take over the continent with little effort.

 

We see the same in Elona. Outside of Humans Elona had Djinn, Centaurs, Heket, and Harpies. The Heket and Harpies are relative newcomers, migrating from their original homeland of Dzalana. The Djinn don't make things of their own, and just live in caves and other natural dwellings unless bound by humans. And the Centaurs are a quasi nomadic tribal race, with little in the way of buildings outside of tents/lean tos. This means that, much like Cantha, most of the Elonian continent was either uninhabited to any real degree, or only sparsely so when humans arrived.

 

Tyria proper is a little different, mostly due to Glint, but even then... Before the arrival of the non native humans and Charr the only intelligent life in Ascalon was the Grawl. A highly tribal species with limited population. Orr had no known native non-human intelligent species. The Magumma had some centaurs on its outer edge, but the actual depths were just wildernss full of animals. And we know humanity made it to the unseen western coast of the Maguuma, and nothing was reported there either. Only the Shiverpeaks, with the Dwarve, Jotun, and Norn, and Kryta/The Woodland Cascades with its Centuars and Tengu, really had any sort of substantial life in it.

 

If we take the world map given to us in LWS2, and un-distort it, the limits of the known world, from the northern part of the old Norn lands, all the way down to the southern edge of Cantha, pretty much go from the Arctic circle to the Antarctic circle, and the width is about 1/4 of the world. So, if 1/4 of the world is this depopulated... the other 3/4th are unlikely to be any more so, especially due to a lack of Glint in those areas.

 

The fact that the Charr have never reported any sort of advanced/developed species outside of Ascalon, despite the Blood and Ash Legions presumably having their own Ascalon sized land parcels up North, and out East, would again suggest a largely uninhabited/depopulated world, and a lack of anything interesting for a significant distance out east.

 

Even beyond lore reasons, Anet has said in the past that they have a rule that all the LW/expansion maps have to be placed on the same map parchment as everything else(so no separate maps like GW1 had) which limits just how far east/west they can expand the map since they can only make the map so large before movement around it becomes cumbersome.

 

And I can easily think of another two LW seasons Anet can do, one in Cantha, one back in Tyira, before they would actually need to go elsewhere. And thats anywhere from 3-4 more years after EoD, past the 13th anniversary. Most MMOs don't last that long to begin with. Even if they are good.

 

4 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I am still kind of sad they did not cover more about the Stone Summit but guess they had to rush the story to get into EoD and the finale of the Elder Dragon storyline by EoD or the Living world after so they can finally move on to a new storyline that is no longer tied to Elder Dragons and GW1 in some way.

There was really nothing left to cover with the Stone Summit. After the Rite of the Great Dwarf was performed most of them rejoined the Deldrimor to fight the Destroyers. One small group refused, went off to that remote citadel, and tried to fight it. Only to be semi-corrupted by Primordus' magic. And we wiped them all out in Steel and Fire. There was nothing rushed about it, it was just pretty open/shut from the get go.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Dwarves are good candidate to become the next race release for GW2, I like them better than Tengu.

They turned to stone to fight the destroyers so it's also my guess they are going underground to fight what remains of the Dragon's minions.

Maybe one day they will turn to normal dwarf, but not in EoD.

Edited by Touchme.1097
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10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I am almost entirely certain we wont be seeing much, if any, other parts of the world. Even after EoD.

 

When the Elder Dragons last woke they managed to consume almost all life on the planet, with only a handful of races being secreted away by Glint, and a handful of other surviving via other methods like the Kodan. This left the world vastly depopulated, and, in many respects, uninhabited.

 

We can see this in Cantha. Outside of the non-native humans, Cantha really only has three intelligent races. The Naga, the Tengu, and the Wardens. And the Wardens themselves are implied to be magical humans akin to druid, so likely don't count as truly nonhuman natives. Before the Jade Wind the Naga lived in the Jade Sea, and while we don't know what all the Tengu originally claimed as their own, the fact that its stated that tensions with the Tengu only really began to rise after the Jade Wind, and the need to settle Shing Jea more, suggests that the Tengu were largely confined to Shing Jea themselves. This means the vast majority of the Canthan continent would have been entirely uninhabited, or not inhabited to any significant degree. Which explains how huamntiy was so quickly able to move in and take over the continent with little effort.

 

We see the same in Elona. Outside of Humans Elona had Djinn, Centaurs, Heket, and Harpies. The Heket and Harpies are relative newcomers, migrating from their original homeland of Dzalana. The Djinn don't make things of their own, and just live in caves and other natural dwellings unless bound by humans. And the Centaurs are a quasi nomadic tribal race, with little in the way of buildings outside of tents/lean tos. This means that, much like Cantha, most of the Elonian continent was either uninhabited to any real degree, or only sparsely so when humans arrived.

 

Tyria proper is a little different, mostly due to Glint, but even then... Before the arrival of the non native humans and Charr the only intelligent life in Ascalon was the Grawl. A highly tribal species with limited population. Orr had no known native non-human intelligent species. The Magumma had some centaurs on its outer edge, but the actual depths were just wildernss full of animals. And we know humanity made it to the unseen western coast of the Maguuma, and nothing was reported there either. Only the Shiverpeaks, with the Dwarve, Jotun, and Norn, and Kryta/The Woodland Cascades with its Centuars and Tengu, really had any sort of substantial life in it.

 

If we take the world map given to us in LWS2, and un-distort it, the limits of the known world, from the northern part of the old Norn lands, all the way down to the southern edge of Cantha, pretty much go from the Arctic circle to the Antarctic circle, and the width is about 1/4 of the world. So, if 1/4 of the world is this depopulated... the other 3/4th are unlikely to be any more so, especially due to a lack of Glint in those areas.

 

The fact that the Charr have never reported any sort of advanced/developed species outside of Ascalon, despite the Blood and Ash Legions presumably having their own Ascalon sized land parcels up North, and out East, would again suggest a largely uninhabited/depopulated world, and a lack of anything interesting for a significant distance out east.

 

Even beyond lore reasons, Anet has said in the past that they have a rule that all the LW/expansion maps have to be placed on the same map parchment as everything else(so no separate maps like GW1 had) which limits just how far east/west they can expand the map since they can only make the map so large before movement around it becomes cumbersome.

 

And I can easily think of another two LW seasons Anet can do, one in Cantha, one back in Tyira, before they would actually need to go elsewhere. And thats anywhere from 3-4 more years after EoD, past the 13th anniversary. Most MMOs don't last that long to begin with. Even if they are good.

 

 

This is kind of thought is only based on what we know currently and if civilizations outside of current regions we can play in did not take measures to survive each Elder Dragon Cycle. 

As of now we know very little about the world outside of current regions for the obvious reason that we have been trapped in these regions for so long due to the long war against the Elder Dragons. 

There are things far beyond our understanding currently that involves outside of curent regions.

A lot of knowledge now is very much limited to current regions only since there have been no explorations beyond current regions by lore standpoint due to the Elder Dragon Cycle.

Edited by EdwinLi.1284
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I guess what Dwarves remain will probably stay in the depths eradicating the remaining destroyers and eventually causing a power vacuum down there.

There are a great many things living in the deep dark places of the world, some of which we know about and probably a hell of a lot more that we do not.

Primordus for better or worse was the be all and end all of big bad things nobody wanted to mess with down there.. and now that he's gone I would expect a lot of surviving races/species that once/still called the depths of Tyria home to want to claim as much of that territory as they can.

While there are a few known sentient races like the Dwarves, Skritt and Asura that dwelled in the depths of the world at once time or another there are many others as well, Spiders, Ooze, Fleshreavers and Skelks are among some known species that once/still do live underground and could likely return to the depths someday.
Probably the big one that I am most interested in seeing in Gw2 though, Demons!
Gw1 confirmed that there were species of Demon living in the Depths of the world and nobody knows exactly how many could be living down there.
But with Primordus gone, Demons are a big potential candidate imo for some territory expansion in the depths as well as also being a big potential candidate for some epic depths of Tyria storytelling.

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3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I guess what Dwarves remain will probably stay in the depths eradicating the remaining destroyers and eventually causing a power vacuum down there.

There are a great many things living in the deep dark places of the world, some of which we know about and probably a hell of a lot more that we do not.

Primordus for better or worse was the be all and end all of big bad things nobody wanted to mess with down there.. and now that he's gone I would expect a lot of surviving races/species that once/still called the depths of Tyria home to want to claim as much of that territory as they can.

While there are a few known sentient races like the Dwarves, Skritt and Asura that dwelled in the depths of the world at once time or another there are many others as well, Spiders, Ooze, Fleshreavers and Skelks are among some known species that once/still do live underground and could likely return to the depths someday.
Probably the big one that I am most interested in seeing in Gw2 though, Demons!
Gw1 confirmed that there were species of Demon living in the Depths of the world and nobody knows exactly how many could be living down there.
But with Primordus gone, Demons are a big potential candidate imo for some territory expansion in the depths as well as also being a big potential candidate for some epic depths of Tyria storytelling.

The only demon who was underground in the original Guild wars was Kanaxai, who was never stated to be from there either. His non amphibious nature makes an origin in the Jade Sea unlikely.

 

The vast majority of demons we have seen in the series are Mists creatures, which is where any demon story would almost certainly take place.

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1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The only demon who was underground in the original Guild wars was Kanaxai, who was never stated to be from there either. His non amphibious nature makes an origin in the Jade Sea unlikely.

 

The vast majority of demons we have seen in the series are Mists creatures, which is where any demon story would almost certainly take place.


True the vast majority were from the mists but there are some whose origins remain a mystery.
Kanaxai was one of them but there's also the Oni which are far more common and appear all over Cantha.

What we know about Demons from the mists is that they are typically spawned by much larger demons like the Dreadspawn Maw.
We know they can lave the mists and be brought to Tyria as well.

Down in the depths there are so many ruins from ancient and dead civilisations, it's quite possible that one of those civilisations either knowingly or unknowingly was able to bring one of these colossal demons onto Tyria before they were destroyed.
A giant, ancient demon which has managed to evade discovery for who knows how long and has spent countless years filling the deep parts of the world with other demons.
Kanaxai's origins could easily be written into something like that, as could the Oni.

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On 8/4/2021 at 2:59 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

 

A small army’s worth at least survived since they fought alongside us in the Thunderhead Dragon Response Mission. And that isnt including the remnants of what was left in Forging with Steel

Adding the Stone Summit to the DRMs as well as Dragonstorm would have been nice for creature/destroyer variety. Hopefully that’s something that could be updated when we get to return to IBS.

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20 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Adding the Stone Summit to the DRMs as well as Dragonstorm would have been nice for creature/destroyer variety. Hopefully that’s something that could be updated when we get to return to IBS.

I doubt they are going to change anything content-wise, if they didn't even fix bugs.

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I hope we get some updates on the dwarves eventually beyond that brief dialogue tease we got in Hoelbrak during Dragon Bash.

 

Quote

Player: What happens now for the dwarves? 
Dran Blackforge: The Great Dwarf won't leave us, I'm sure. There are few of us left...but tomorrow's thoughts are for tomorrow. Today is for remembering our fallen and raising a mug in their honor. (Source)

 

While the above dialogue suggests that most dwarves have died out during their battles against destroyers, we've yet to learn if heroic figures like King Jalis Ironhammer or High Priest Alkar still exist down in the Depths of Tyria. As seen with the failure of the Destroyer of Hope to slay Aurene in Season 3, the existence of champions like Destroyer of the Last King or Destroyer of the Ironhammer Line does not necessarily mean that these destroyers succeeded in their grim tasks. It would be fun to visit the wise dwarven king and see how he's faring now that his singular drive post-rite to slay destroyers will soon be rendered meaningless as few destroyers remain in the aftermath of Dragonstorm. Exploring the future of the dwarves would be an interesting story beat and how they'll get adjusted to a world which no longer has to worry about Primordus and other Elder Dragons. 🙂

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/20/2021 at 4:42 AM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

"Destroyer of the Last King" exists. Plus revenants have access to Legendary Dwarf Stance. It's rather safe to assume Jalis is long dead, long gone. Same goes for Alkar,.

Perhaps Jalis is gone. But we've also seen the Destroyer of Hope fail to slay Aurene or the Destroyer of Life fail to destroy Rata Sum despite similar prophetic names. The survival of these champions, or having the Destroyer of the Last King just chilling out near Primordus while the Destroyer of the Ironhammer Line attacked Metrica Province rather than stayed in the depths to eradicate the remaining stone dwarves, would thus not necessarily mean that Jalis and his family are gone and that these champions' priorities might've changed when Primordus needed a full-scale destroyer invasion of the surface to speed up its awakening. For all we know, the Destroyer of the Last King could've been on a mission to hunt down Jalis but was recalled to Draconis Mons when Taimi's machine not only injured Primordus but also caused the instant death of dozens if not hundreds of destroyers there, so Primordus needed a champion to protect it while it was recovering in the caldera.
We also know that revenants can invoke legends that are still alive from both dev comments as well as the rev Commander invoking Joko's legend during early Season 4, so Jalis doesn't need to be dead to be invoked as a legend.

The dwarves we met at Biergarten during Dragon Bash did suggest some losses in the war against Primordus and Jormag, but sadly they didn't confirm Jalis's demise. Perhaps that's something the writers will keep up their sleeve and leave ambiguous for now if they ever intend to explore the stone dwarves and the Depths of Tyria in the future now that Primordus is gone and the depths can be repopulated again by asura, skritt etc. 🙂

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18 minutes ago, Kossage.9072 said:

Perhaps Jalis is gone. But we've also seen the Destroyer of Hope fail to slay Aurene or the Destroyer of Life fail to destroy Rata Sum despite similar prophetic names. The survival of these champions, or having the Destroyer of the Last King just chilling out near Primordus while the Destroyer of the Ironhammer Line attacked Metrica Province rather than stayed in the depths to eradicate the remaining stone dwarves, would thus not necessarily mean that Jalis and his family are gone and that these champions' priorities might've changed when Primordus needed a full-scale destroyer invasion of the surface to speed up its awakening. For all we know, the Destroyer of the Last King could've been on a mission to hunt down Jalis but was recalled to Draconis Mons when Taimi's machine not only injured Primordus but also caused the instant death of dozens if not hundreds of destroyers there, so Primordus needed a champion to protect it while it was recovering in the caldera.
We also know that revenants can invoke legends that are still alive from both dev comments as well as the rev Commander invoking Joko's legend during early Season 4, so Jalis doesn't need to be dead to be invoked as a legend.

The dwarves we met at Biergarten during Dragon Bash did suggest some losses in the war against Primordus and Jormag, but sadly they didn't confirm Jalis's demise. Perhaps that's something the writers will keep up their sleeve and leave ambiguous for now if they ever intend to explore the stone dwarves and the Depths of Tyria in the future now that Primordus is gone and the depths can be repopulated again by asura, skritt etc. 🙂

No offense, but this is overthinking for the sake of overthinking. Jalis is dead, if he wasn't we would've seen him by now. Now, of course, the devs could always retcon this in case we're visiting the Depths of Tyria at some point in the future. 

Regarding destroyer names / titles: they're inconsistent, ranging from vague to "earned". 

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On 8/6/2021 at 1:00 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't really know what else they could have done with the Stone Summit.

They resisted the Rite of the Great Dwarf as best as they could.

Eventually they Primordus' magic to try and undo said Rite, turning into mindless magma Dwarves defending their ruins.

 

I don't think they became actual minions of Primordus though, as Primordus doesn't make use of any corrupted life forms.

The Destroyers might just have been attracted to the magma Dwarves because the sensed Primordus' magic within them.

There are a few examples, though, of dragons having minions they wouldn't have made themselves but which they'll have nonetheless.

 

Jormag, for instance, had the whole 'I never force anything on anyone who didn't ask for it' schtick, preferring minions who came to them willingly. But Svanir shamans could still perform forced corruption, it just didn't happen simply as a consequence of being (or dying) too close to the dragon as happened with Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan. Similarly, Primordus preferred making his own minions, but didn't seem to complain when they corrupted themselves.

 

On 8/6/2021 at 9:26 PM, Teratus.2859 said:


True the vast majority were from the mists but there are some whose origins remain a mystery.
Kanaxai was one of them but there's also the Oni which are far more common and appear all over Cantha.

What we know about Demons from the mists is that they are typically spawned by much larger demons like the Dreadspawn Maw.
We know they can lave the mists and be brought to Tyria as well.

Down in the depths there are so many ruins from ancient and dead civilisations, it's quite possible that one of those civilisations either knowingly or unknowingly was able to bring one of these colossal demons onto Tyria before they were destroyed.
A giant, ancient demon which has managed to evade discovery for who knows how long and has spent countless years filling the deep parts of the world with other demons.
Kanaxai's origins could easily be written into something like that, as could the Oni.

GW1 implied that oni were created by Kanaxai in some fashion, possibly created from twisted humans (similar to Margonites).

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