RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: I was referring to: but ill bite. Stealth leap, swap to axe, winters bite from stealth. You have an intelligence sigil yes? How? Which? Have you ever played warrior? Dagger 3 is an instant cc and all ccs proc immob. axe isn’t as good as you think I guess as landing it one time isn’t gonna do much against a rampaging warrior and actually the 1v1 in the long term is much harder when playing axe as compared to sword main hand, but I guess that is a separate convo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: I don’t see your point really- prot holo is the best against 1vx yet no one climbs on it, in fact warrior is better for climbing because warrior is faster at killing noobs compared to prot holo and that's what makes climbing in ranked, holding 1v1 with possible pluses is less so. while holding point in 1v1 and kitting pluses is huge in tournament. possibly you don't see my point because i only see organized tournament plays, and disregard anything happens in ranked as it doesn't matter because there's too many other factors in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Just now, RedAvenged.5217 said: Have you ever played warrior? Dagger 3 is an instant cc and all ccs proc immob. axe isn’t as good as you think I guess as landing it one time isn’t gonna do much against a rampaging warrior and actually the 1v1 in the long term is much harder when playing axe as compared to sword main hand, but I guess that is a separate convo I have to ask have you played it? Just so you know all cc's do not proc immobe that is a trait addon for spellbreaker only If you are kiting properly you pretty much know every time the dagger 3 is going to come out Did the waarrior leap at you? Are they in melee range? If no then the dagger 3 likely wont be used If yes there is a high chance of dagger 3 being used. Almost every average warrior player will play this way and how you choose to handle that is up to you in alot of cases based on this alone you can almost always dodge it. If the warrior saves it then you can quickly adapt to their playstyle but most wont do this from my exp. Further more the dagger 3 skill is only a daze if you are not using any skills you meaning if you play correctly and do not use a skill when you know its coming you can walk away or dodge the follow up without taking any damage. Ranger axe is pretty strong and offers nice burst and utility suppression with chilling bite Recently more rangers are opting to using axe over sword main hand and its weird to me that you specifically call out rampage here I would hope most weapon skills are not effective against rampage as it is an elite skill and your basic weapon skills should mostly not be effective against it obvious reasons. While there are some exceptions across every class most of the weapon skills should not be = to an elite skill. Not sure why you felt the need to call out rampage specifically. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Lighter.5631 said: because warrior is faster at killing noobs compared to prot holo and that's what makes climbing in ranked, holding 1v1 with possible pluses is less so. while holding point in 1v1 and kitting pluses is huge in tournament. possibly you don't see my point because i only see organized tournament plays, and disregard anything happens in ranked as it doesn't matter because there's too many other factors in play. There are a lot of other factors in tournaments too in fact the last team that won eus mat that played prot holo, the prot holo literally did nothing- they won becuz they had 3 supports and rezzed him 5 times. it wouldn’t even have been viable if it wasn’t for those factors, which is probably why it wasn’t prevalent later on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: Have you ever played warrior? Dagger 3 is an instant cc and all ccs proc immob. Apologies for that, I am steeped in berserker muscle memory, so sometimes when people mention dagger I draw a blank. You're right. If its traited. and if you're within 130 distance, at which point anything else can hit you too. I dont think that daze/immob changes the main thrust of my argument though, it's just a subset of warriors needing to telegraph their bursts since the stab itself does insignficant damage, and relies on hitting someone using a skill. Being aware of full-counter alone makes even the 1 second immob less threatening. Quote axe isn’t as good as you think I guess as landing it one time isn’t gonna do much against a rampaging warrior and actually the 1v1 in the long term is much harder when playing axe as compared to sword main hand, but I guess that is a separate convo We don't even need to have this convo, I don't think any of that is unfair or particularly what the matchup hinges on, either. Edited July 23, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Just now, RedAvenged.5217 said: There are a lot of other factors in tournaments too in fact the last team that won eus mat that played prot holo, the prot holo literally did nothing- they won becuz they had 3 supports and rezzed him 5 times. it wouldn’t even have been viable if it wasn’t for those factors, which is probably why it wasn’t prevalent later on factors in tournament are part of the play and not random factor such as pug skill level and non-communication rotations. 3 support rezzed prot holo doesn't nullify the fact that they choose prot holo over warrior for the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 1 minute ago, ZDragon.3046 said: I have to ask have you played it? Just so you know all cc's do not proc immobe that is a trait addon for spellbreaker only If you are kiting properly you pretty much know every time the dagger 3 is going to come out Did the waarrior leap at you? Are they in melee range? If no then the dagger 3 likely wont be used If yes there is a high chance of dagger 3 being used. Almost every average warrior player will play this way and how you choose to handle that is up to you in alot of cases based on this alone you can almost always dodge it. If the warrior saves it then you can quickly adapt to their playstyle but most wont do this from my exp. Further more the dagger 3 skill is only a daze if you are not using any skills you meaning if you play correctly and do not use a skill when you know its coming you can walk away or dodge the follow up without taking any damage. Ranger axe is pretty strong and offers nice burst and utility suppression with chilling bite Recently more rangers are opting to using axe over sword main hand and its weird to me that you specifically call out rampage here I would hope most weapon skills are not effective against rampage as it is an elite skill and your basic weapon skills should mostly not be effective against it obvious reasons. While there are some exceptions across every class most of the weapon skills should not be = to an elite skill. Not sure why you felt the need to call out rampage specifically. We are specifically talking spellbreaker which takes the trait you mention, so I’m pretty sure what I said was accurate your analysis is over simplified as warrior has massive gap closers that an axe ranger cannot keep up with, which is why axe is pretty ehh in the 1v1 as they just stay in your face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: There are a lot of other factors in tournaments too in fact the last team that won eus mat that played prot holo, the prot holo literally did nothing- they won becuz they had 3 supports and rezzed him 5 times. it wouldn’t even have been viable if it wasn’t for those factors, which is probably why it wasn’t prevalent later on Also the fact that even tournament has random factors, it is already the highest possible option. if there's something with more stable outcome people will consider that over tournament, as the same reason why people balance over highest skilled level matches. you can't just disregard highest skill leveled tournament just because it has random factors then there's nothing else you can base your balance around, because anything else will be worse, we can't reach perfection but we reach the highest standard. Edited July 23, 2021 by Lighter.5631 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said: Also the fact that even tournament has random factors, it is already the highest possible option. if there's something with more stable outcome people will consider that over tournament, as the same reason why people balance over highest skilled level matches. you can't just disregard highest skill leveled tournament just because it has random factors then there's nothing else you can base your balance around, because anything else will be worse, we can't reach perfection but we reach the highest standard. I saw more people play warrior and duelist centric builds than prot holo in the recent “high level tournaments” but ok w.e you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: Sounds like a whole lot of excuses 😆 I know this is old news but I still unironically want to fight @Avatar.3568 so I can determine how seriously to take him. Like...That's always on the table. hit me up. Edited July 23, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: We are specifically talking spellbreaker which takes the trait you mention, so I’m pretty sure what I said was accurate Sorry no... Ive run against spellbreakers who didn't have that trait don't assume all spellbreakers use a a trait just because its a meta choice Even if it IS A META CHOICE what i said does not change you have a very high chance of being able to read when it will be used due to the simple fact that the warrior needs to be touching you to land it. Quote your analysis is over simplified as warrior has massive gap closers that an axe ranger cannot keep up with, which is why axe is pretty ehh in the 1v1 as they just stay in your face Your analysis is too narrow But it sounds like to be based on how you wrote this out like you are having a L2P issue. As a reaper main i know the pain very much of having a spell breaker be on your rear constantly and my break stuns are on a higher cooldown than a rangers are. Addtionally i do not have stability options that you have via the elite command or blocking options that ranger has on gs or vigor or stealth options. My survivability against spellbreakers purely depends on zone control and kiting. That being said you may not accuse me of over simplifying them purely based on them having good gap closers. I know their gap closers are good but they are telegraphed and you can make very good assumptions about what might come after a gap closer is used and be correct likely more than 50% of the time. Yes warriors have great gap closers and im not ignoring that. Ranger has superior ranged options in by comparison however there are some gap closers on rangers that are pretty busted. Soulbeast particularly has the ability to instantly close the gap on a player with the fused smoke assault which has no start up animation or travel time. It also allows them to evade and drop target while dealing considerable amounts of damage. This is usually followed up by a kick a only slightly slower cc than the dagger 3 which that knocks down but is a much stronger and longer cc than the warrior dagger 3 so I'm not sure where you think pulling a gap close card makes my analysis over simplified you literally said that while shunning everything i laid out for you. I do invite you to try again though. You ignored a lot of my statements. Edited July 23, 2021 by ZDragon.3046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: I saw more people play warrior and duelist centric builds than prot holo in the recent “high level tournaments” but ok w.e you want what recent high level tournaments you are talking about tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Just now, Lighter.5631 said: what recent high level tournaments you are talking about tho Did You watch Eu mats, all mirage and ranger they stopped playing giga bunker comps in it’s entirety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said: Even if it IS A META CHOICE what i said does not change you have a very high chance of being able to read when it will be used due to the simple fact that the warrior needs to be touching you to land it. QFE. Telegraphing a burst doesnt have to be an animation. you should be watching for FC on an 8 second timer if a spellbreaker is this close to you anyway, and that behavior by extension trivializes disrupting. Edited July 23, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: QFE. Telegraphing a burst doesnt have to be an animation. you should be watching for FC on an 8 second timer if a spellbreaker is this close to you anyway. FC i dont worry about as much because i can usually force a warrior to press it by going on the offensive. I dont need to watch for it if I can force it. Shroud allows me to do that simply entering shroud and walking into melee range will do it 75% of the time. I have to worry more about their gap closers when my shroud is down and other standard key cc skills. EVEN if you do hit FC by mistake if you have stamina you can opt to dodge the counter hit which is nice. Edited July 23, 2021 by ZDragon.3046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said: Sorry no... Ive run against spellbreakers who didn't have that trait don't assume all spellbreakers use a a trait just because its a meta choice Even if it IS A META CHOICE what i said does not change you have a very high chance of being able to read when it will be used due to the simple fact that the warrior needs to be touching you to land it. Your analysis is too narrow But it sounds like to be based on how you wrote this out like you are having a L2P issue. As a reaper main i know the pain very much of having a spell breaker be on your constantly and my break stuns are on a higher cooldown than a rangers are. Addtionally i do not have stability options that you have via the elite command or blocking options that ranger has on gs or vigor or stealth options. My survivability against spellbreakers purely depends on zone control and kiting. That being said you may not accuse me of over simplifying them purely based on them having good gap closers. I know their gap closers are good but they are telegraphed and you can make very good assumptions about what might come after a gap closer is used and be correct likely more than 50% of the time. Yes warriors have great gap closers and im not ignoring that. Ranger has superior ranged options in by comparison however there are some gap closers on rangers that are pretty busted. Soulbeast particularly has the ability to instantly close the gap on a player with the fused smoke assault which has no start up animation or travel time. It also allows them to evade and drop target while dealing considerable amounts of damage. This is usually followed up by a kick a only slightly slower cc than the dagger 3 which that knocks down but is a much stronger and longer cc than the warrior dagger 3 so I'm not sure where you think pulling a gap close card makes my analysis over simplified you literally said that while shunning everything i laid out for you. I do invite you to try again though. You ignored a lot of my statements. It’s not just a meta choice, it’s one of the best things to play on warrior by a lot. I doubt this is a l2p issue sry. What great ranged options does ranger have to 1v1 warrior? Soulbeast is terrible my guy and axe is pretty obvious and not very far ranged. anyways I’m not sure what mentioning random stuff that isn’t part of this discussion will realistically change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: It’s not just a meta choice, it’s one of the best things to play on warrior by a lot. This is what a META choice is lol Quote I doubt this is a l2p issue sry. What great ranged options does ranger have to 1v1 warrior? Soulbeast is terrible my guy and axe is pretty obvious and not very far ranged. What options? Almost every option scratch that EVERY SINGLE OPTION. Axe, short bow, Longbow are all considerably better options than warriors long bow and rifle options if you dont agree with this then we can just stop the conversation here. Because you need more competitive or perhaps even basic pvp play exp. Soulbeast is decently strong its no as broken as it use to be but it still has some pretty busted abilities and before you say "its not used in monthly AT's so its bad" that does not matter in the grand scheme of balance or relevance to this particular conversation. Ranger is on the borderline of having some of the most overloaded skill kits among a few other classes in the game. Even if its "terrible" its skills are still still very much overbloated are are pure positives in 1v1s that you keep talking about. Additionally, I respectfully request that you do not call me "my guy" I dont know you like that. Quote anyways I’m not sure what mentioning random stuff that isn’t part of this discussion will realistically change This is facts but people are always quick to shun things that sound extra inaccurate or are obviously being called out as a lack of experience even if they are off topic. Edited July 23, 2021 by ZDragon.3046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: Did You watch Eu mats, all mirage and ranger they stopped playing giga bunker comps in it’s entirety lol the recent mAT is a joke, there's barely any team who knows how to play, in fact there's barely any team to play at all, 5 rounds of mAT in EU? even something as casual as daily AT had more rounds in work hour a few months back and the few who knows how to play, more then half of them are teamed and made comp in the last second and most likely just playing w/e they want. with barely anyone wanting to play the game, i can't tell how it can be taken as the golden standard or be taken seriously at all. Edited July 23, 2021 by Lighter.5631 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: What great ranged options does ranger have to 1v1 warrior? *Squints* *Looks at almost every weapon Ranger has* *Looks back at Red* Pardonnez? (I'm memeing but seriously longbow is right there. shortbow isnt bad either. just because they're not front and center on Metabattle doesn't mean they're bad options. I also take issue with you claiming soulbeast of all things is bad, in a thread where you are adamantly trying to portray warrior as good. Soulbeast is what warrior wishes it was.) Edited July 23, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said: This is what a META choice is lol What options? Almost every option scratch that EVERY SINGLE OPTION. Axe, short bow, Longbow are all considerably better options than warriors long bow and rifle options if you dont agree with this then we can just stop the conversation here. Because you need more competitive or perhaps even basic pvp play exp. Soulbeast is decently strong its no as broken as it use to be but it still has some pretty busted abilities and before you say "its not used in monthly AT's so its bad" that does not matter in the grand scheme of balance or relevance to this particular conversation. Ranger is on the borderline of having some of the most overloaded skill kits among a few other classes in the game. Even if its "terrible" its skills are still still very much overbloated are are pure positives in 1v1s that you keep talking about. Additionally, I respectfully request that you do not call me "my guy" I dont know you like that. This is facts but people are always quick to shun things that sound extra inaccurate or are obviously being called out as a lack of experience even if they are off topic. I don’t know why you seem to think I lack basic skills in playing the game. I have been at the plat3+ level since season 5 and ranger is probably one of my best classes. who cares if ranger longbow is better than warriors. If I wanna play sic em soulbeast against any actually skilled player they can you know just kite you, the end result would be the warrior never dying in the 1v1 and owning the node half the time, which is equal to a loss as far as conquest goes- which is why sic em soulbeast isn’t great in tournaments becuz pretty much anyone can do this to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: *Squints* *Looks at almost every weapon Ranger has* *Looks back at Red* Pardonnez? (I'm memeing but seriously longbow is right there. shortbow isnt bad either. just because they're not front and center on Metabattle doesn't mean they're bad options. I also take issue with you claiming soulbeast of all things is bad, in a thread where you are adamantly trying to portray warrior as good. Soulbeast is what warrior wishes it was.) I make almost all the ranger builds on metabattle. im not some idiot that copy and paste from their Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said: I make almost all the ranger builds on metabattle. im not some idiot that copy and paste from their Nobody said that you didn't know what you were talking about; its just really aggravating to know that ranger has a toolkit two to three times as versatile as warriors is and have that consistently be overlooked when it comes to balancing efforts focused on warrior. Which is why I asked you to try warrior for a short period vs rangers to see what that's like. Edited July 23, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovarica.4368 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I would like them to change the berserker adrenaline hammer rupturing smash skill to something else because it kind of sucks hard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny.7260 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I'm gonna say it. This isn't making anyone agree or learn anything new. Nothing productive here. Just a bunch of sizing up and just trying to get digs at each other. Red agrees with Red, Blue agrees with Blue. (Get it? Haha. Azure.) Fight if you're gonna fight is the bottom line. Specifically Spellbreaker could use some small CD reductions, Zerker needs better CDs in general/traits looked at. Core just needs to supply better ways to combat blind aside from kitten Berserker's Stance. That's all I'll say myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAvenged.5217 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: Nobody said that you didn't know what you were talking about; its just really aggravating to know that ranger has a toolkit two to three times as versatile as warriors is and have that consistently be overlooked when it comes to balancing efforts focused on warrior. Which is why I asked you to try warrior for a short period vs rangers to see what that's like. I m not saying that it doesn’t. If you wanna ask which class is better overall I’d say ranger by a lot. Doesn’t mean warrior isn’t viable at all. There is at least 1 decent build on warrior and if it wasn’t for giga bunkers it would be great. Also ranger isn’t the giga bunker holding it back. I saw trama play war on Na and this was definitely the case, just giga bunkers holding him back- he had ok sustain damage and mobility it was just over shadowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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