Mist Stranger

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As the Garden of the Gods book which I pointed out establishes, they left further to find a new planet to bring people to, rather than direct interference.

Ahh yes, the book written by a literally deranged, crazed, fanatic, with nothing to back it up, and everything to disprove it.

 

If the gods knew about the Elder Dragons, and were looking for a new planet to take humanity...

• Why did the gods just leave instead of warning humanity about the dragons?
• Why did they not only do that, but also not tell humanity they were looking for another planet, instead of leaving them wondering why the Gods have left them?
• Why does Kormir make no mention of this during out conversation with her in PoF?
• A follow up to that. Why does Kormir tell us that the gods will offer no help, and that its up to us, when the gods essentially are offering help, just later?
• Why would the gods even think this plan would work at this point, when the only way for there to be a humanity left to transport to another world would be if humanity killed the dragons, and thus didn't die, meaning the only reason to take them to another world would be negated?

 

Literally nothing about that book adds up from a logical perspective. Then again, this is the same series of lore books that claimed the Order of Shadows were evil, and were playing both sides, and keeping Joko in power, for no reason beyond "because", when dialog between Order of Shadow members, including Kossan, mentions how they have planned for Joko's downfall, and for Kossan to take the place as the new leader of Elona, which would only happen if everything in said book as  a lie. So these books were fairly suspect from the get go.

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Hell, the entire Balthazar arc itself brings reason for their involvement, and the new lore from Vision with the armory only increases this potential reasoning.

Ahh yes the armory lore, which implies the other gods would be mad for us killing Balthazar... despite the fact Kormier knew we were going to kill Balthazar, and was just like "yeah go ahead". I guess she isn't one of the gods now, since she didn't seem upset by it.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

20 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Ahh yes, the book written by a literally deranged, crazed, fanatic, with nothing to back it up, and everything to disprove it.

Ah, yes, the claim that an NPC is unreliable, with nothing to back it up.

 

I can see this will once again go nowhere since you're just proclaiming "Bah, you can't trust that piece of canon lore!"

[draxynnic.3719]

On 7/17/2021 at 3:59 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Ahh yes, the book written by a literally deranged, crazed, fanatic, with nothing to back it up, and everything to disprove it.

 

If the gods knew about the Elder Dragons, and were looking for a new planet to take humanity...

• Why did the gods just leave instead of warning humanity about the dragons?
• Why did they not only do that, but also not tell humanity they were looking for another planet, instead of leaving them wondering why the Gods have left them?
• Why does Kormir make no mention of this during out conversation with her in PoF?
• A follow up to that. Why does Kormir tell us that the gods will offer no help, and that its up to us, when the gods essentially are offering help, just later?
• Why would the gods even think this plan would work at this point, when the only way for there to be a humanity left to transport to another world would be if humanity killed the dragons, and thus didn't die, meaning the only reason to take them to another world would be negated?

 

Literally nothing about that book adds up from a logical perspective. Then again, this is the same series of lore books that claimed the Order of Shadows were evil, and were playing both sides, and keeping Joko in power, for no reason beyond "because", when dialog between Order of Shadow members, including Kossan, mentions how they have planned for Joko's downfall, and for Kossan to take the place as the new leader of Elona, which would only happen if everything in said book as  a lie. So these books were fairly suspect from the get go.

 

There's a simple explanation to the questions you pose, actually: the Gods trying to find an alternative home for humanity is a contingency plan that hasn't been completed yet. The ideal scenario is still for humans to win on Tyria, or at least to survive long enough for a suitable location to be found. The gods might believe that it's better for humans to believe that Tyria is their last stand so that they fight with everything they have, rather than for humanity to wait to be saved (which might not actually be possible if the gods don't find a suitable location).

 

Regarding the Order of Shadows: I actually don't see a contradiction between the Order of Shadows deciding that it's better to allow Joko to remain in power than to attempt to overthrow him (due to the risk of Elona falling into chaos in the power vacuum without him) while also having a plan for his downfall. Partly due to the possibility of Joko being torn down by circumstances that the Order of Shadows could not control, and partly due to the possibility that Joko might do something that makes the Order decide that it's better to bring him down after all. While a secret society might be following a particular policy at one point in time, a decent secret society is going to have contingencies in place should that policy prove to be untenable.

 

Both of your arguments essentially assume that there can only be one plan, when in reality good planning often entails having a Plan B (and possibly C, D, and so on) in case Plan A collapses. For the gods, the Garden is probably their Plan B, but they'd still prefer for Tyria to be made safe for humans to remain there (even if they might someday offer humans an opportunity to colonise another world in the future). For the Order of Shadows, it's entirely possible that Plan A was 'maintain order even if that means allowing Joko to remain in power', while still having a Plan B for the eventuality where Joko does get removed from the picture. It's also possible that there are different factions in the Order of Shadows that had different opinions.

[hugo.4705]

Frankly, very surprised they didn't use Auris Weirdbringer, would have made more sense, he even have Aetherblade armor. or you know, you see the Arena-Commando from jahai coming out a portal Haha.

Edited July 18, 2021 by hugo.4705

[hugo.4705]

On 7/14/2021 at 4:41 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

nothing mysterious, just a filler "random guy from the mists".

 

anyway i wish the writers some day explore more mists lore potencial. its still to much simplistic, just a "repository of souls". With departing of Gods, and some realms destroyed by Kralkatorrik, its become even more simplistic.

 

Also Elder Dragons invaded mists(Kralk) wanst a good direction, would be more insteresting if the mists had entities that can play a role in counterbalancing the ED.

 

The Rytlock trip, bringing Balthazar is a example of good direction.

Indeed, they can still go the mist path after EOD with the hub of time and concept arts from Utopia. Gods realms, echoes... ton of possiblities. At this point we can even visit GW1 transfer chamber just by going through the mists or scrying pools. Since, as the mist stranger said, in other realities things can occurs differently. And so in another reality, maybe jormag or primordius still here, lion's arch is risen, or scarlet conquered all Tyria.

 

What I am curious about is what happens to dragons once killed? They are simply all in the mists? Can't they cause havoc in the mists if so? Kralkatorrik was travelling through mists..

[ugrakarma.9416]

35 minutes ago, hugo.4705 said:

Indeed, they can still go the mist path after EOD with the hub of time and concept arts from Utopia. Gods realms, echoes... ton of possiblities. At this point we can even visit GW1 transfer chamber just by going through the mists or scrying pools. Since, as the mist stranger said, in other realities things can occurs differently. And so in another reality, maybe jormag or primordius still here, lion's arch is risen, or scarlet conquered all Tyria.

 

What I am curious about is what happens to dragons once killed? They are simply all in the mists? Can't they cause havoc in the mists if so? Kralkatorrik was travelling through mists..

 

i was in favor of the dragons simply "dissapear" but,,, Glint-after-death is on the mists.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

It is an interesting question. Glint might be a special case due to her connection with Ascension, the Forgotten, and the gods - it's possible that something in the weirdness of her history means that her spirit passed into the Mists (or passed into the Mists with enough of her power intact for that to matter) when that wouldn't normally happen with Elder Dragons. Or it could be that because she didn't reach Elder Dragon status, she was still mortal enough to pass into the afterlife, while with the Elder Dragons, their soul is bound up with their power such that any exploitation of their weakness that kills them also results in the destruction of their soul.

Or as another alternative, Elder Dragon souls might simply be so powerful that they end up forming their own fractal, which effectively isolates them from the rest of the Mists.

[Crossbones.5814]

On 7/14/2021 at 5:09 AM, Poormany.4507 said:

Anyone have any theories on who/what the new Mist Stranger in EotN might be?

Can he be Lord Odran?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 minutes ago, Noxistence.9376 said:

Can he be Lord Odran?

Lord Odran was torn apart limb from limb by a horde of spirits, so not very likely.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Both of your arguments essentially assume that there can only be one plan, when in reality good planning often entails having a Plan B (and possibly C, D, and so on) in case Plan A collapses. For the gods, the Garden is probably their Plan B, but they'd still prefer for Tyria to be made safe for humans to remain there (even if they might someday offer humans an opportunity to colonise another world in the future). For the Order of Shadows, it's entirely possible that Plan A was 'maintain order even if that means allowing Joko to remain in power', while still having a Plan B for the eventuality where Joko does get removed from the picture. It's also possible that there are different factions in the Order of Shadows that had different opinions.

NEITHER argument was this. I'm not even sure where you got this nonsense idea from.

 

The argument was, if the gods were looking for another planet for humanity to live on, them not telling anyone, and Kormir's dialog where she point blank states we aren't getting any help, and its all up to us, doesn't make sense. The only way to reconcile these two things is if you are claiming Kormir is just lying... for reasons, when she has no reason to lie about the gods looking for another planet, and the gods have no reason to have not told everyone that before hand. Even if they haven't found one yet, and/or would prefer humanity solve the problem on Tyira, they have no reason to have not told everyone before they left, and Kormir has no reason to say what she does in PoF, because what she says in PoF point blank contradicts this notion. If they were looking for another planet Kormir has no reason to go "you're not getting any help from us, and you already have everything you need to win anyways" she would have gone "You already have everything you need to win, but even if you fail try to hold out because we are looking for another word to mass transport you people too"

 

As for the Order of Shadows, the book doesn't say they are playing both sides to prevent Joko form falling for power vacuum reasons. It just states that the Order of Shadows are intentionally sacrificing civilians to keep the game ever going with no end in sight, and no clearly discernible goal. OFC, they never actually do this in-game, and we have dialog between OoS members where they talk about setting Kossan up as the leader of Elona after Joko's fall, not only showing that they DO have a plan, but that they expect it to happen in he next decade or two at most. Which again, directly contradicts the notion put out by the OoS Mission Dispatch lore book. Just like the Garden of the Gods book is contradicted by Kormir's own words/actions in PoF.

17 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ah, yes, the claim that an NPC is unreliable, with nothing to back it up.

 

I can see this will once again go nowhere since you're just proclaiming "Bah, you can't trust that piece of canon lore!"

I provided plenty of reason why he would be unreliable. Mainly, it directly contradicts everything Kormir says in PoF. You just ignored it like you did so many other things because it didn't fit your preconceived notions about the lore.

 

Also, something being canon lore doesn't mean its correct. Wild-Eye Miller is in LA ranting about everyone, from the Asura to the Norn, being dragon minions. Its canon that he made those statements... doesn't make those statements anything more then the ramblings of an insane man.

 

You have this problem where you try to take everything NPCs say in this ultra literal, absolute fact, sort of way... but no one writes dialog like that

Edited July 18, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Zola.6197]

Razah seems like a good candidate for the Mist Stranger's true identity -- posted earlier, but my comment got removed for linking to the legendary lore datamine.

 

Razah is mentioned as part of Exordium's lore though, so it could be the devs have that character on the brain for a specific reason.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

25 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Kormir says that they will not fight the Elder Dragons. She does not say the Six will do nothing about the Elder Dragon situation. Two very different situations.

And again, if this was true why does Kormir say we never needed their help in PoF, with the story journal description point blank saying the gods abandoned Tyria? Which was also just recently back up by the legendary item lore for Eternity, which similarly states the gods Abandoned Tyira. If you abandon something, you aren't spending years on a plan to help out everyone in the place you abandoned. That is a, literal definition of the word, contradiction of the idea of abandoning it.

25 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I only do this with you. I wonder why.

You do it to a lot of people, it only goes this far with me because I refuse to be brow beaten by a bully like you have been doing since the old days on GW1 Guru, where people were pointing out you doing this exact same thing even then.

25 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Were you even around then, because you sure weren't by your current name. So it really sounds like you're just making kitten up about me.

I've been around the GW community since before EoTN came out on the old Guru site. This is the account In preordered GW2 with, and played the beta on.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'll do you one better: Why does her own journal state:

 

"The destruction of Tyria is inevitable, yet there is a part of me that still remembers what it was like to be mortal—what it is to hope."

 

if we can win without her help?

Because this has nothing to do with the conversation.

 

Remembering what it feels like to be mortal, and having hope that they do succeed in their battle against the dragons, doesn't contradict anything about them abandoning Tyira.You can abandon someone in any number of dangerous situations, for any number of reasons, but still hope they succeed because you know what its like to be in a similar situation.

 

This has nothing to do with not needing her help either. Just because we don't need her help doesn't mean its going to be easy, or without a big mess, or that we are guaranteed to win. It just means we can possibly win without their help.

 

Honestly, what you just said was a complete non sequitur.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Because this has nothing to do with the conversation.

 

Remembering what it feels like to be mortal, and having hope that they do succeed in their battle against the dragons, doesn't contradict anything about them abandoning Tyira.You can abandon someone in any number of dangerous situations, for any number of reasons, but still hope they succeed because you know what its like to be in a similar situation.

 

This has nothing to do with not needing her help either. Just because we don't need her help doesn't mean its going to be easy, or without a big mess, or that we are guaranteed to win. It just means we can possibly win without their help.

 

Honestly, what you just said was a complete non sequitur.

Me: "What about this line that says Tyria's destruction is inevitable?"

You: "Kormir remembering what it feels like to be mortal doesn't contradict anything about them abandoning Tyria."

 

And you claim I am the one who "just ignored it like you did so many other things because it didn't fit your preconceived notions about the lore."

 

I rest my case.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

NEITHER argument was this. I'm not even sure where you got this nonsense idea from.

 

The argument was, if the gods were looking for another planet for humanity to live on, them not telling anyone, and Kormir's dialog where she point blank states we aren't getting any help, and its all up to us, doesn't make sense. The only way to reconcile these two things is if you are claiming Kormir is just lying... for reasons, when she has no reason to lie about the gods looking for another planet, and the gods have no reason to have not told everyone that before hand. Even if they haven't found one yet, and/or would prefer humanity solve the problem on Tyira, they have no reason to have not told everyone before they left, and Kormir has no reason to say what she does in PoF, because what she says in PoF point blank contradicts this notion. If they were looking for another planet Kormir has no reason to go "you're not getting any help from us, and you already have everything you need to win anyways" she would have gone "You already have everything you need to win, but even if you fail try to hold out because we are looking for another word to mass transport you people too"

I already explained this: It's motivational. If you tell someone that it's up to them to get out of a bad situation, it gives them motivation to find that way - and if they succeed, they don't need to know that you were working on a contingency plan if they failed. If you tell them that you're going to get them out, though, they might simply wait until you do so.

 

Which might be a problem if you're not sure that the contingency plan is going to work.

 

Plan A is for humanity to survive on Tyria. Plan B is to find a site to evacuate them to.

 

Given the limited amount of time Kormir had to talk to us, too, why WOULD she waste time telling us about a contingency plan that might or might not work? Particularly if she knows that, if not stopped, Balthazar's actions would result in Tyria's destruction before the other gods had the chance to find and prepare an evacuation site?

 

Both sources can be true. Dealing with Balthazar could be entirely up to us, because if we don't do so, we'd be destroyed before an evacuation site is ready. Saying so doesn't mean that the gods aren't looking for an evacuation site. They could be looking for such a site and Kormir would still be telling the truth - just not the whole truth.

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

As for the Order of Shadows, the book doesn't say they are playing both sides to prevent Joko form falling for power vacuum reasons. It just states that the Order of Shadows are intentionally sacrificing civilians to keep the game ever going with no end in sight, and no clearly discernible goal. OFC, they never actually do this in-game, and we have dialog between OoS members where they talk about setting Kossan up as the leader of Elona after Joko's fall, not only showing that they DO have a plan, but that they expect it to happen in he next decade or two at most. Which again, directly contradicts the notion put out by the OoS Mission Dispatch lore book. Just like the Garden of the Gods book is contradicted by Kormir's own words/actions in PoF.

I provided plenty of reason why he would be unreliable. Mainly, it directly contradicts everything Kormir says in PoF. You just ignored it like you did so many other things because it didn't fit your preconceived notions about the lore.

The dispatches do say that they're playing all sides, and we see in the Domain of Vabbi that they see a problem with trying to overthrow Joko right away. The dispatches don't go into their exact motivations why, but that's because the agent in question didn't get that far.

 

But just because we see the Order of Shadows enthusiastically participating in the overthrow of Joko in Season 4, does not necessarily mean that the Dispatches were wrong. The Dispatches do, in fact, provide a motivation - they're protecting their own influence. It's likely that, whatever their ultimate aim was, they were playing a long game, and that long game required making sacrifices - including taking actions that were to Joko's benefit, at least in the short term - in order to make sure that they were in a position to achieve their desired outcome when the time came. Whether that desired outcome was stability in Elona (even if that meant Joko remaining in power), overthrowing Joko (but not moving too overtly against him until the time was right), or some other goal.

 

Maybe they genuinely wanted to overthrow Joko and replace him with Kossan during Kossan's lifetime. Or maybe that was simply a contingency plan, but they wanted Kossan to believe that was the main plan. And either way, events that actually played out required them to adjust on the fly, because I don't think they planned for Balthazar, Kralkatorrik, the Commander, Aurene, or a new Spearmarshal.

 

You're the one here who's rejecting sources because they don't fit your interpretation of another source. Much of what you're claiming to be clear contradictions are potentially more nuanced than that. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I already explained this: It's motivational.

Being told that your gods are leaving you out to dry, but you might win if you try really hard, isn't motivational. Its the very definition of de-motivational. And we even see that out party doesn't tell pretty much anyone, except a very small handful of people, exactly because they know how poorly that would go over among the vast majority of the populace. If it was motivational they would be going around "hey guys, the gods believe in us so much they don't think we need their help, so they aren't going to do anything!" to rally humanity against the dragons/Balthazar... that didn't happen, because that isn't how it works. No one thinks that way.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Given the limited amount of time Kormir had to talk to us,

What limited time? No one was forcing to her leave literally right then, and not the five minutes later it would have taken to explain this. You're acting like she would have needed days to explain something so basic, and that doing so would have given Balthazar the victory or something.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Both sources can be true. Dealing with Balthazar could be entirely up to us,

This wasn't about Balthazar, this was about the Elder Dragons... you're not even following the conversation now. And again, Kormir has no reason to not tell the whole truth to us, who are, you know, the ones who went through hell and high water to reach her. But its OK to apparently tell some rando priest out in the middle of a desert, that no one knows about, so he can write a book, that doesn't appear anywhere where many people could read it, because.... reasons? She doesn't have the time to tell us when we are right there talking to her, but she has the time to send some guy a vision of it! It takes more time to do the latter then it does the former. Unless she just... didn't do it, and the Priest was making something up because hes a fanatic, and wants to believe the gods love him so. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

Not to mention the recent Legendary lore update with the Eternity lore blurb point blank saying the gods have full stop abandoned Tyria... which wouldn't be the case if they were out looking for a new planet for the people of Tyria.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But just because we see the Order of Shadows enthusiastically participating in the overthrow of Joko in Season 4, does not necessarily mean that the Dispatches were wrong.

I never mentioned anything about S4. I was referring only to PoF, and the conversation with Kossan outside the Chantry. Now you're just straw manning, and putting words into other people's mouths. How atrocious.

 

This also ties into a larger issue with the Dispatches, if the OoS wasn't being portrayed as "Le evil" for the sake of it... then why kill the OoW agent? If they weren't just playing the game solely for their own benefit, and not due to some larger plan to make things better, as suggested, there is no reason to have the agent killed... especially when they directly help us go against Joko in PoF. You're arguing that they are killing people in the group they are allied with in PoF... to stop them from learning they are doing the things they help us do in PoF. That doesn't add up.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're the one here who's rejecting sources because they don't fit your interpretation of another source. Much of what you're claiming to be clear contradictions are potentially more nuanced than that. 

Nope, you have it backwards here.

 

Potentiality means nothing in a fictional universe, especially when it comes to things like canon. Potentiality is just shorthand for "this is my headcanon on the subject that I an going to argue is the actual fact of the game/TV show/movie", and headcanon has no place in honest discussion. You could argue potentiality for literally anything that isn't solid as rock answered, and have it all work within what the game does provide, but that doesn't mean anything in regards to the actual canon, which just is what is in the game.

 

Given that this book mentions the OoS acting in a way they demonstrably don't in-game, killing a guy they have no reason to kill since they are loosely allied with them in Pof, and mentions the original OoS still existing further south, when they clearly don't, its pretty obvious this was a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. Everything in PoF and LWS4 directly contradicts the portrayal of the Shadows in this text.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Huh. It seems three of my posts in this thread got deleted, without a notice from moderators that they were deleted, and the posts by Sajuuk quoting those posts remain.

 

These posts called out Sajuuk on his logical fallacy, and correcting his false claims against me. Only one remained, which Sajuuk never replied to.

 

Strange.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

17 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Me: "What about this line that says Tyria's destruction is inevitable?"

You: "Kormir remembering what it feels like to be mortal doesn't contradict anything about them abandoning Tyria."

 

And you claim I am the one who "just ignored it like you did so many other things because it didn't fit your preconceived notions about the lore."

 

I rest my case.

Your case makes no literally sense. What exactly about that line in any way contradicts what I said about them abandoning Tyria?

 

Like seriously, what are you drawing from that line that makes you think that they haven't done so?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Your case makes no literally sense. What exactly about that line in any way contradicts what I said about them abandoning Tyria?

 

Like seriously, what are you drawing from that line that makes you think that they haven't done so?

If Kormir says that Tyrians can deal with the Elder Dragons and survive without the Six Gods' help, that means they can be winners.

But the destruction of Tyria is a major losing condition - since the entire conflict is about survival, not merely defeating your foe. The reason why they disagreed with Balthazar in the first place was that "defeating the Elder Dragons" is fine and possible, but "surviving the defeat of the Elder Dragons" was the important matter.

 

If Kormir thinks that the destruction of Tyria is inevitable, that means she lied to the Commander and co. by proclaiming they can win on their own, as survival is the primary winning condition.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

If Kormir says that Tyrians can deal with the Elder Dragons and survive without the Six Gods' help, that means they can be winners.

But the destruction of Tyria is a major losing condition - since the entire conflict is about survival, not merely defeating your foe. The reason why they disagreed with Balthazar in the first place was that "defeating the Elder Dragons" is fine and possible, but "surviving the defeat of the Elder Dragons" was the important matter.

 

If Kormir thinks that the destruction of Tyria is inevitable, that means she lied to the Commander and co. by proclaiming they can win on their own, as survival is the primary winning condition.

Kormir isn't omniscient, or omnipotent. She can be wrong about things, or ignorant of things... like she was of Balthazar until we broke the mirror and revealed his true form. Not to mention, anything between her writing that, and her talk with the Commander, could have changed her opinion. All she says is her time of leaving is soon. Which can be anywhere from that day, to a few months ago.

 

And again, what exactly does this have to do with the gods abandoning Tyria... which is what started this whole mess in the first place? Even if she thinks its inevitable that Tyria is doomed... doesn't mean the Gods haven't washed their hands of it. Especially when she point blank says they won't be getting help, the story journal itself mentions the gods abandoned Tyira, and the new Legendary lore for Eternity says the same thing.

 

You're moving the goalposts from the gods haven't abandoned Tyira, to Kormir is lying, and if she is lying... what is to say the vision the Priest supposedly got wasn't a lie too? At this point you are just providing evidence that undermines your original basis... and then trying to claim victory for undermining your own argument.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

Sajuuk I may be wrong in here but I think that what Konig meant with that Kormir journal is to show that just saying "oh this book is contradicted by dialogue so let's just ignore it", by supplanting other book within same instance even that gets "contradicted" by the same dialogue. Which isn't moving the goalpost, but rather extrapolate from your argument and try to show that it cannot lead to anything coherent. Forgot the fancy name of that move tho.

 

If I misunderstood the intention, feel free Konig to correct me up there 😉

 

That being said my understanding of the Garden of the gods, was that gods have already picked up select colonisers and went to move on to a different world. Basically a deal of "there is no way we are going to move all of yall buggers, so we will pick up our favourites and try to build new civilisation from that".

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

That being said my understanding of the Garden of the gods, was that gods have already picked up select colonisers and went to move on to a different world. Basically a deal of "there is no way we are going to move all of yall buggers, so we will pick up our favourites and try to build new civilisation from that".

Well the book says that the faithful will someday see it, not that anyone has yet. Suggesting no one has been taken to this new world yet.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

27 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well the book says that the faithful will someday see it, not that anyone has yet. Suggesting no one has been taken to this new world yet.

 

Well to be fair I am not saying this was correct interpretation, but more of a feel I have got from that thing. If I were to go arguing to defend that I could try to engage in mental gymnastics to try to say that those two bits are not mutually exclusive, but tbh I don't think I have time or energy to actually defend that probably wrong interpretation of mine 🙂

[Imba.9451]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well the book says that the faithful will someday see it, not that anyone has yet. Suggesting no one has been taken to this new world yet.

Or suggestion that nobody has returned to tell about it.

 

Thats pretty much belief-systems in a nutshell. Believe hard enough and you will be rewarded.

Anyway, that again does not contradict Kormir.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Sajuuk I may be wrong in here but I think that what Konig meant with that Kormir journal is to show that just saying "oh this book is contradicted by dialogue so let's just ignore it", by supplanting other book within same instance even that gets "contradicted" by the same dialogue. Which isn't moving the goalpost, but rather extrapolate from your argument and try to show that it cannot lead to anything coherent. Forgot the fancy name of that move tho.

 

If I misunderstood the intention, feel free Konig to correct me up there 😉

That is indeed what I was meaning. And that you can't just deny all but one sources because it fits one's own desired narrative.

 

In this situation, there's reason to doubt Kormir's words said to the Commander, because she herself expresses that doubt at another time. This paints Kormir as the unreliable narrator more than the author of the Garden of the Gods, who's only contradiction to is a very specific interpretation of Kormir's words said to the Commander (which, as just said, is contradicted by herself).

3 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

That being said my understanding of the Garden of the gods, was that gods have already picked up select colonisers and went to move on to a different world. Basically a deal of "there is no way we are going to move all of yall buggers, so we will pick up our favourites and try to build new civilisation from that".

I don't think anyone was taken to this other world, or that this other world had been found even. Assuming Garden of the Gods is accurate, and wasn't a case of Kormir lying to this guy (which could make lie #3) or this guy being delusional, then the implication I get is that the gods are currently searching for this world and have been for the past ~100-200 years with intentions of returning quite publicly once they did.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You're moving the goalposts from the gods haven't abandoned Tyira, to Kormir is lying, and if she is lying... what is to say the vision the Priest supposedly got wasn't a lie too? At this point you are just providing evidence that undermines your original basis... and then trying to claim victory for undermining your own argument.

I never moved the goalposts, because whether Kormir is lying or not directly ties into whether or not the gods have abandoned Tyria. If she's lying to the Commander, then all support for the gods having abandoned Tyria vanishes as well, since she is the sole source for the gods having abandoned Tyria. I know you also cited the story journal, but the story journal is the Commander's own thoughts, so that's based off of what the Commander sees and hears - in other words, Kormir's words.

 

The entire argument of whether gods beyond Lyssa may or may not return, whether or not they abandoned Tyria, hinges on the validity of Kormir's words.

 

And Kormir herself harms that validity by contradicting her words of mortals' ability to survive on their own to the Commander in her private journal.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086