We need to review Dev decision making.

[Chaba.5410]

"We need to review Dev decision making."

 

No.  We don't.  We're not their managers.  We don't get paid.

[Monika Mu Phi.4378]

How ironic!  Some share their opinion that folks should just join a private squad "at any time" to get the event achievements and rewards.  But then we read:

4 hours ago, MarkoGold.7126 said:

well they should give us ingame filters for example this party requires 500 li to join or 10k fractal currency, and if the player doesnt have that he cant even join.

 

i am already filtering people for fractals and raids and so is pretty much anyone who does those game modes why not make it official and put it in the game by default.

 

So, you say we should join a private squad to get our achievements done in the time frame BUT we will be "filtered" based on any whim of another player, any number of times, and possibly every time.  By the way, I wonder if MarkoGold is the person who kicked me out of a TM private squad first day, first 30 seconds of the event.  Are you THAT guy?  If you get your way, and in-game filters are created, I hope they allow peeps to be filtered for having too much li, fractal currency, xp, etc., too. 

 

I don't raid.  I have zero li.  Does that mean I have less access to other content & rewards (eg: TM private squads) than other players?  If so, I recommend ANet use this as material for their next GW2 promotional video--I'm sure that would entice fresh, new players (NOT!). And don't bother with the "just start your own squad" solution - I've been in LFG squads that were marked specifically for casuals, beginners, and such. They just get hijacked by so-called elites who join, then filter the party by voting to kick the peeps they don't want in the group.

 

Over the years I've thanked and noted players who are truly elite, helpful, and great leaders.  Unfortunately, they seem to be fewer and harder to find these days.  However, I am impressed with some great insights I've read here in this thread, so this gives me hope!

[MarkoGold.7126]

4 minutes ago, Monika Mu Phi.4378 said:

How ironic!  Some share their opinion that folks should just join a private squad "at any time" to get the event achievements and rewards.  But then we read:

 

So, you say we should join a private squad to get our achievements done in the time frame BUT we will be "filtered" based on any whim of another player, any number of times, and possibly every time.  By the way, I wonder if MarkoGold is the person who kicked me out of a TM private squad first day, first 30 seconds of the event.  Are you THAT guy?  If you get your way, and in-game filters are created, I hope they allow peeps to be filtered for having too much li, fractal currency, xp, etc., too. 

 

I don't raid.  I have zero li.  Does that mean I have less access to other content & rewards (eg: TM private squads) than other players?  If so, I recommend ANet use this as material for their next GW2 promotional video--I'm sure that would entice fresh, new players (NOT!). And don't bother with the "just start your own squad" solution - I've been in LFG squads that were marked specifically for casuals, beginners, and such. They just get hijacked by so-called elites who join, then filter the party by voting to kick the peeps they don't want in the group.

 

Over the years I've thanked and noted players who are truly elite, helpful, and great leaders.  Unfortunately, they seem to be fewer and harder to find these days.  However, I am impressed with some great insights I've read here in this thread, so this gives me hope!

This is my second account i dont have commander on this one but if you tried to join my squad yes i would probably kick you since you dont have li, nothing personal i just chose not to play with you, and secondly you are not owned anything if you dont want to be kicked get a tag and make a party yourself put in some effort first before whining about being kicked from parties.

[Taelac.7036]

I'd have phrased the topic header differently, but I agree that the design choices seem to be somewhat at odds with each other.  I also hope that the public option will persist in some fashion after this week, because a week is not long enough for a lot of people to complete the achievements, and the tight player count on the private access is going to mean a lot of exclusion happening.

It seems like an awful lot of work to put it back in the game, only to set it up so that a big chunk of the player base will be walled off from even failing it after the first week.  Perhaps there is already a plan to eventually set up a rotation among the events accessed from the Eye of the North, but it would be nice to have confirmation of that.

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, MarkoGold.7126 said:

This is my second account i dont have commander on this one but if you tried to join my squad yes i would probably kick you since you dont have li, nothing personal i just chose not to play with you, and secondly you are not owned anything if you dont want to be kicked get a tag and make a party yourself put in some effort first before whining about being kicked from parties.

You can be good at the game and not do raids much if at all, you know that right?

This is why im glad anet hasnt given sorting tools thus far. Ive seen raid squads for TM fail, and good lord the salt and blaming is just astounding.

Ive done minimal raids, had no issues with TM, but id be excluded from your squad because you want an arbitrary number of items that one uses on armor, which is the entire reason im doing raids now. Once i get enough LI to get all my sets i wont do raids anymore, and thus wont have LI to showoff. Goodtimes.

 

 

[Voltekka.2375]

2 hours ago, Monika Mu Phi.4378 said:

How ironic!  Some share their opinion that folks should just join a private squad "at any time" to get the event achievements and rewards.  But then we read:

 

So, you say we should join a private squad to get our achievements done in the time frame BUT we will be "filtered" based on any whim of another player, any number of times, and possibly every time.  By the way, I wonder if MarkoGold is the person who kicked me out of a TM private squad first day, first 30 seconds of the event.  Are you THAT guy?  If you get your way, and in-game filters are created, I hope they allow peeps to be filtered for having too much li, fractal currency, xp, etc., too. 

 

I don't raid.  I have zero li.  Does that mean I have less access to other content & rewards (eg: TM private squads) than other players?  If so, I recommend ANet use this as material for their next GW2 promotional video--I'm sure that would entice fresh, new players (NOT!). And don't bother with the "just start your own squad" solution - I've been in LFG squads that were marked specifically for casuals, beginners, and such. They just get hijacked by so-called elites who join, then filter the party by voting to kick the peeps they don't want in the group.

 

Over the years I've thanked and noted players who are truly elite, helpful, and great leaders.  Unfortunately, they seem to be fewer and harder to find these days.  However, I am impressed with some great insights I've read here in this thread, so this gives me hope!

While personally i stay away from elitists (i do have 5 LI myself, anyway), it is also acceptable for any comm to ask for whatever killproof they want. Besides, what is keeping you from making your own squad and accepting everyone?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Voltekka.2375
Typo

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

Back in the day when TM first launched we did get chest rewards each run. THAT's part of what made it fun!! 😶it's not the same now

There were also additional rewards, iirc (the fragments of keys to chests in Scarlet hidden base, for example - if i remember correctly, they were dropping from trash mobs in lanes)

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There were also additional rewards, iirc (the fragments of keys to chests in Scarlet hidden base, for example - if i remember correctly, they were dropping from trash mobs in lanes)

Yes you are correct! I still have quite a few code fragments left over. I was kinda hoping to use them again. Oh well I guess I can delete them now

[Vayne.8563]

7 hours ago, Peanutz.3129 said:

Why would they only get it in that period of time?

If its important to them they will do the squad version

if not than not

Farming all and every achievement point is not casual gaming and therefor requires more time

 

And what is this reward for a second time is too low??

You grind the achievement points or not...

You get a reward if you finish the achievement... Why is that not enough?

Why is it not enough?

Suppose there was an achievement.  Climb to the top of this mountain.  For the first week, if you have time during the first week, you can climb that mountain with the help of a sherpa.  That's what a lot of people will do. A lot of people in my guild., most of them, will get the achievement this week.,..except for the one guy on vacation this week. He's away with his family, he's not playing, but he does like achievements.

 

Now he comes back to a harder achievement than everyone else, which he'll have to spend even more time on because the 50 man squad fails more often. But everyone else in the guild got this achievement easily.  They just showed up on time. This guy has to wait for a squad, he's not a leader, he's a casual player.

 

The marionette when it first launched wasn't hard core content. Everyone in my casual guild was doing it long before we even really knew how to play the game. We weren't dungeon and fractal runners, not most of us anyway. We were just open world players who did some world bosses and some achievements.  We waited years for this to come back. Now they're changing the game.

 

When you take a relatively casual event everyone loved and turn it into a harder core event that locks you out, you're changing an existing event and it gives the impression the game doesn't care about you anymore. They care about these hard core guys who get your favorite event, but in a harder manner, that requires you to jump through more hoops. Why should this guy have to work harder for the same achievement than everyone else in the guild?  Because harder core players think it's okay?
 

We did that with HOT and it didn't work out so well. Anet had to go back and make some changes to HoT. Had to add more veteran events, thin out mobs, change some champs to vets.   The bulk of this player base is casual. Why should casuals who can be here this week have an easy road and then have that road removed?  I'd rather see the 50 man instance removed than the public one.  Because a bigger percentage of the population will be using that than the instanced, that much I'm sure of.

 

Casuals don't like to keep doing the same thing over and over again, waiting for it to show up, failing it, and trying it again. Not when other people got the same achievement more easily.

 

You ask why? Because  there is no good reason to disenfranchise the bulk of your player base.

[Firebeard.1746]

5 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

"We need to review Dev decision making."

 

No.  We don't.  We're not their managers.  We don't get paid.

But we do pay them with gem purchases, etc. So what we believe kind of does matter. I would hope their managers would appropriately judge player response to content and help them design accordingly.

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

When you take a relatively casual event everyone loved and turn it into a harder core event that locks you out, you're changing an existing event and it gives the impression the game doesn't care about you anymore. They care about these hard core guys who get your favorite event, but in a harder manner, that requires you to jump through more hoops. Why should this guy have to work harder for the same achievement than everyone else in the guild?  Because harder core players think it's okay?

 

We did that with HOT and it didn't work out so well. Anet had to go back and make some changes to HoT. Had to add more veteran events, thin out mobs, change some champs to vets.   The bulk of this player base is casual. Why should casuals who can be here this week have an easy road and then have that road removed?  I'd rather see the 50 man instance removed than the public one.  Because a bigger percentage of the population will be using that than the instanced, that much I'm sure of.

 

Casuals don't like to keep doing t

he same thing over and over again, waiting for it to show up, failing it, and trying it again. Not when other people got the same achievement more easily.

 

You ask why? Because  there is no good reason to disenfranchise the bulk of your player base.

EXACTLY!

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

When you take a relatively casual event everyone loved and turn it into a harder core event that locks you out, you're changing an existing event and it gives the impression the game doesn't care about you anymore. They care about these hard core guys who get your favorite event, but in a harder manner, that requires you to jump through more hoops. Why should this guy have to work harder for the same achievement than everyone else in the guild?  Because harder core players think it's okay?

This, so much this. If they expect me to continue to play a game that's catered to people who don't play like me, I don't want to keep playing. Alot of their PVE decisions lately have not made me very happy.

I hate timers, especially tight ones, that seems to be a contrived method of difficulty in much recent content (DRMs, this). I would prefer content that caps my deaths or doesn't let me die at all than try to play against a timer. How does this make sense with the amount of player freedom in stat selections? Also just plain descrepancies between classes in various content. Like it's really frustrating some classes can easily solo DRM CMs but others can't. That's not balanced at all. It's spaghetti thrown at a refrigerator.

And to me, it feels like they've been trying harder to cater to hard core players, but the hard core players don't even appreciate it. Snow crows had a trollish #NOPE under their "DRM" section.  Hardcore players weren't satisfied with Drakkar even after they turned it into a ridiculous damage sponge (it gets really hard to pass if you don't have at least 35 people, which was disappointing as it really only felt full for me right after reset, when I don't usually play, when I still cared about it). Drizzlewood north meta felt like an attempt at making them happy given the strength of mechanics but turns into a glorified corpse run, but no one really said anything happy about it (lootsplosion sure, but  not the encounters). This has generated some positive reaction, but given its low rewards I bet most "hardcore" players will stop after this week. No one will care. The PVE team needs to start trying to cater to everyone instead of a bunch of unsatisfiable trolls with the end result of alienating everyone else. I'm fine if they get their hardmode, but stop forcing it on the rest of us.

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

17 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I hate timers, especially tight ones, that seems to be a contrived method of difficulty in much recent content (DRMs, this). I would prefer content that caps my deaths or doesn't let me die at all than try to play against a timer. How does this make sense with the amount of player freedom in stat selections? Also just plain descrepancies between classes in various content. Like it's really frustrating some classes can easily solo DRM CMs but others can't. That's not balanced at all. It's spaghetti thrown at a refrigerator.

 

 I'm fine if they get their hardmode, but stop forcing it on the rest of us.

 

Exactly!

 

I will say that my reasons for liking drizzle wood are for the PvE free method of farming clovers. Now if they would just add Gift of Battle to it and then maybe, hopefully PvE (NON-RAIDgated) legendary armor farm from HoT PoF & EoD that'd be great!!!

 

Think it will happen?

[Vayne.8563]

45 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

But we do pay them with gem purchases, etc. So what we believe kind of does matter. I would hope their managers would appropriately judge player response to content and help them design accordingly.

But they can't tell why someone buys or doesn't buy gems at a specific time. It's not a cause and effect thing. They see fewer people buying gems but they don't necessarily know why.

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

3 hours ago, Voltekka.2375 said:

While personally i stay away from elitists (i do have 5 LI myself, anyway), it is also acceptable for any comm to ask for whatever killproof they want. Besides, what is keeping you from making your own squad and accepting everyone?

The drop of 30 additional players that when you account for skill in building "grand plus" hits each #1 and possibility of fresh level 80, along side leeches, don't for get the disconnects, then take into consideration the average player does NOT #1 >5k, lest we forget there seems to be something about at least 1 platform being a solo platform. Those +30 warm bodies makes a WORLD of difference even if ALL they do is #1.

 

I can say this, I have run about 10-12 "PvE / Living World / ALL players welcome" squads. Not a single one, even with many so called "l33ts" succeeded. Case in point I do more ressing of RAIDers, PvP & WvWer than I do those with out the 300+ Mastery points. My last run in Public was spent ressing and even carrying these "spurts" all whom had 366 or more mastery. The average "casual" / PvEr  is going to top out around 358. Call it a balance thing or a bug or that clearing the dust off the revised version or what ever but it does not appear to be a skill issue. Not when I ressing downed legendary equipped RAIDers and on my platform no less!. Twice now I've carried more than two downed  obviously skilled (at least according to their gear) players. I'm might be an above average PvEr but I know my rig & home network will not let me handle competitive play.

 

Before you go blaming me: My build  [&DQQePSA7Ny+hAC4X+hb6FjQWARfBAOkWwAAuFjk9FSsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

Its solo'd and duod much.

 

So yeah it hasn't been as "fun" in the commander shoes I forgot to mention the constant reposting on lfg as other just up and leave.

 

On the other hand my squad listings when up for PvE never fail to fill and faster than the "experienced" or "XP only" squads.  So I would say there is a High DEMAND for the Public version!

 

Just my 2 cents

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

"We need to review Dev decision making."

 

No.  We don't.  We're not their managers.  We don't get paid.

Absolutely true. But if they are going to be more transparent and we have a voice and they give us a means of voicing opinions. Then there is nothing saying we can't and in fact they are saying we can. Currently it's mostly for the competitive world and those are whom they are responding to then it's clear to us that

1. We should be vocal on the forums, so stop trying to silence them
2. If changes are not made in the future to include PvE there are a fair number who might stop paying for other players game modes development.
3. It's status quo, when a group of players doesn't like the way the content is being  made they make their voices know
4. No we don't get paid we pay them, so we want content we can play because we pay them!

I think typically Living World is done through surveys, idk for sure, and I have seen things I and apparently others have asked for in them in the game. So yes they ask players for input, they have been, if only imo, since betas.

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

So I want something to be clear to all of us that we are forgetting as we battle out our opinions. That is "Guild Wars 2 is big and complex with a lot of unique game experiences, including Living World™, World vs. World, Player vs. Player, endgame PvE, and more." ~ Guild Wars 2 Team

 

That means, and we have all seen this happening multiple times, these are Priorities to them:

1. Living World
2. PvP
3. WvW
4. Endgame PvE (RAIDs)
5. Dungeons, Fractals, Guilds and more

Notice that Living World is trade marked. They are NOT going to just drop it like a hot rock (not pun to HoT intended :) ). The point has been made I'm betting some one from Anet has seen it. I'm sure this plus many other things are in closed doors being discussed.

 

Now some of us have chosen to play one area more than another, some have chosen to play all areas and even others have chosen to play mostly in one but adventure into others. But no one wants to be forced into one area vs another.  THAT's where I think the "Champions" method of story telling was such a GREAT method that involves most if not all the above listed modes of play! That method of having both Public and Private + the Private having motes to increase the challenge rating is a VERY VERY SWEET SPOT! They can add 5, 10 -50 group content to the list of options when entering it! They could even add a list of tiers to the motes to select from like they do in the "Special Forces Training Area" and have Titles or something for the higher tiers. But there is nothing that should stop all players from getting the legendary gear from their preferred game mode to then build up skills and abilities to use them in other areas. That won't mean every one will suddenly want a competitive only game mode. But at least they can enjoy the grind.

 

 

Hey! That's a good idea for innovation! Keep the Public and Private option. They work as the currently do Public 80 random players. Private scales to the number of players up to and including 5 with the current mote / challenge options available. Then add another option for 10 or 50 lets call it "Bring it on" If you click the "Bring it On" button it pops up another menu offering you a choice of squad size and challenge rating like Fractals does!  Now you have a copy paste method of creating Living World Story, RAIDs, Fractals and Dungeons all in one! Then just add the Dungeons and previous living world story to that method and keep moving forward!

 

HHMMmmm...Do you thin they have already thought of that? Seems a natural progression?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

It seems the thread kind of lost the OP topic. 

It wasn't really about keeping the Public version, but that the Public version (save once per day) was not rewarding enough. 

That completing the Achievement was not enough of a reward, in and of itself. 

[Chaba.5410]

19 hours ago, Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

Absolutely true. But if they are going to be more transparent and we have a voice and they give us a means of voicing opinions. Then there is nothing saying we can't and in fact they are saying we can. Currently it's mostly for the competitive world and those are whom they are responding to then it's clear to us that

1. We should be vocal on the forums, so stop trying to silence them
2. If changes are not made in the future to include PvE there are a fair number who might stop paying for other players game modes development.
3. It's status quo, when a group of players doesn't like the way the content is being  made they make their voices know
4. No we don't get paid we pay them, so we want content we can play because we pay them!

I think typically Living World is done through surveys, idk for sure, and I have seen things I and apparently others have asked for in them in the game. So yes they ask players for input, they have been, if only imo, since betas.

It's important to understand what a healthy boundary is between being a customer and being a designer.  Blurring that line introduces expectations of "design by committee" which is one of the worst ways to design in many different contexts.

 

Everyone has an opinion about something even if they're unqualified.  If a company starts doing "design by committee", that's a clear sign there's a big lack of design leadership and vision.  Don't expect anything good to come out of that company.  They're lost and struggle with innovation.  They may have a lot of money to throw around (just look at AGS so far, look at all the long-delayed crowdfunded projects with mission creep).  Also, don't mistake marketing research for design!

 

So no, we do not "need to review dev decision making".  Keep feedback provided from the perspective of a customer rather than as someone looking to control devs.  Example: we don't tell a pilot we want to review their in-flight decisions, but do complain if the seats are uncomfortable.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[Metaljaw.6437]

2 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

It seems the thread kind of lost the OP topic. 

It wasn't really about keeping the Public version, but that the Public version (save once per day) was not rewarding enough. 

That completing the Achievement was not enough of a reward, in and of itself. 

I really don't get why my point is so hard to comprehend.  It's not the difficulty. It's not about public vs private. It's about the Dev's incentivising two polar opposite behaviors in the game.

 

On one hand they incentivize only doing the event daily as the majority of the rewards are from the daily chests (and I will assert that even this is a lower amount than originally dropped in the first iteration).

On the other hand they incentivize doing the event more than daily as there is an achievement that requires 10 completions. Most of the player base realizes that the ability to complete that is going to be closed to them after the event is over because of people like MarcoGold.

I am annoyed by the contradiction. Pick a side. Either the Devs want us to farm the event or they don't. 

I apparently made the mistake of also noting that I played during the original iteration of Twisted Marionette and remember the rewards dropping every time, in proportion to how far you progressed, with a completion yielding 15+ masterwork and above items, as well as drops coming from all the lane adds. Now, you only get a once/day reward for each level of completion that is lower in total than originally  implemented, and no drops from the adds. That's sort of a side note, an more of a secondary point to my main issue of conflicting messaging on if events should be farmed.

 

And for those that say there isn't such messaging, then you clearly were not playing, or don't remember the champ trains. The Queensdale champ train used to award champ bags for each completion of Shadow Bohemeth. Then they implemented world bosses with only daily chests. When was the last time you saw a champ train run a route more than once now?  Clearly they made a game change to discourage farming.  My point is don't now add achievements to encourage farming, or at least to encourage farming beyond the anti-farming mechanic.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Metaljaw.6437

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

On a side note, new players have learned to fight the Marionette. Almost every public event has ended with success. So, there's that.

[Metaljaw.6437]

4 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

On a side note, new players have learned to fight the Marionette. Almost every public event has ended with success. So, there's that.

I'm seeing about 80% completion rates in public. I'm not sure if we are back in the active sabotage realm of the first iteration, but the last one I just did had people in the same guild abandon platforms (apparently - happened in two other lanes so that was from map chat on the explanation of why we failed).

[Metaljaw.6437]

Yep. 2nds fail in a row in public because people abandoning platforms. So it begins again.

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

On 7/16/2021 at 12:41 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

It's important to understand what a healthy boundary is between being a customer and being a designer.  Blurring that line introduces expectations of "design by committee" which is one of the worst ways to design in many different contexts.

 

But yet they are doing that are they not? They have been doing it for years! What are the balance posts that take player input?!?

 

I can agree I get the committee issue. I do agree that "need to review dev decision making" but not player we. In other words I don't think it is our job to tell them what to do. THAT is the managers jobs, no question. But if your going to consider one "unique game experience" and develop and change things based on their input, don't you think players of other "unique game experiences" deserve the same consideration?

 

While they have shown great aptitude and have created a very superior game and using their innovative perceptions have made major changes to the game industry. Lets face it not everything they have developed as been the best thing since sliced bread!  So wouldn't it be prudent to consider the player base of your game when developing for them?

 

Taking player consideration into account is not a bad thing. Nor is it anything NEW to Guild Wars 2. I think the point the poster made was fair. The Twisted Marionette was not rewarding to play multiple times in this version for 44 AP, an ascended item that can't be salvaged and some sprockets. Not when you think back to it's 1st release when we used to get drops from the mobs + champion bags from the champs + the AP + the End Chest! Plus the drops contained items for use in the Tri-Color Chest after the event! THAT was rewarding and fun and well worth the play and hardship to learn new skills and abilities.

 

I don't think we are advocating the restructuring of Arenanet to include us as part of the team?! That would be absurd.

 

We want the game to succeed and we want the game to be fun, entertaining, enjoyable, (for some other players) challenging, tell a great story and have repeatable & and rewarding content.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Seth Moonshadow.2710

[Seth Moonshadow.2710]

On 7/16/2021 at 3:34 PM, Metaljaw.6437 said:

Yep. 2nds fail in a row in public because people abandoning platforms. So it begins again.

Yes, sadly and on a few levels too.🙄