Massive Damage

[TheDarkness.6947]

Earthquake

 

Quote

Trigger a quake at your location, knocking down foes and dealing massive damage.

 

The actual amount of massive damage my earthquake deals against a golem in the PvP lobby with my current power gear is 13.   (Edit: 13 was a crit).

 

Beware my earthquake and it's fingernail chipping potential?

 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by TheDarkness.6947

[Fueki.4753]

Earthquake is a CC skill and there got it's damage nerfed into the ground in PvP and WvW, like every other CC skill.

It was an objectively terrible decision to blanket nerf the damage on all CC skills, but Arenanet seems to be happy with it.

 

In comparison to other CC skills, Earthquake might still deal massive damage though.

[Jski.6180]

Ya they never went back and fixed things.

[TheDarkness.6947]

I guess so.  I pointed it out mostly because it seems like a particularly shiny example of how you’d think ele would play from reading the profession description and abilities, versus what it actually plays like…

[Fueki.4753]

35 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

I guess so.  I pointed it out mostly because it seems like a particularly shiny example of how you’d think ele would play from reading the profession description and abilities, versus what it actually plays like…

This is a shiny example indeed.

It's a shiny example that one should not put any trust into the flavour texts of skills.

That description of massive damage would fit much better with Churning Earth, while Earthquake would fare better with the description of a seismic wave that knocks down foes.

[Zeesh.7286]

lightning rod baby

[Zeesh.7286]

but yes a lot of ele skills need at least a tool tip updating as well as proper reworking but we can't expect anet to care about it since we're not necros and guards 

[TheDarkness.6947]

17 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

That description of massive damage would fit much better with Churning Earth, while Earthquake would fare better with the description of a seismic wave that knocks down foes.

 

I’d save the word “massive” for something more like engi’s flame jet.  I’m not sure ele has any skills that I’d classify as having massive damage.  It’s more like they have a bunch of skills that if you can click them in rapid enough succession can add up to massive damage.  Maybe.  I don’t know because I personally can’t click them fast enough to make that happen.

[zitounae.4803]

Or long cast /travel/hitbox that requires playing against golems. #elegolemkings

[vilkanor.3072]

you misinterpreted the text, it should be read as following: "while casting any Ele skill, you will take massive damage from opponents"

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

I’d save the word “massive” for something more like engi’s flame jet.  I’m not sure ele has any skills that I’d classify as having massive damage.  It’s more like they have a bunch of skills that if you can click them in rapid enough succession can add up to massive damage.  Maybe.  I don’t know because I personally can’t click them fast enough to make that happen.

Elementalist might not have many strong skills (or any at all) in comparison with other professions, but my comparison was meant to be between both of Elementalist's offhand Earth dagger skills.

[TheDarkness.6947]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Elementalist might not have many strong skills (or any at all) in comparison with other professions, but my comparison was meant to be between both of Elementalist's offhand Earth dagger skills.

 

It's a fair comparison in that case.  I guess that's my struggle with ele though.  They are so squishy.  Good gravy, why can't they have a couple really strong attacks...?

[Alpha.1308]

23 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Earthquake is a CC skill and there got it's damage nerfed into the ground in PvP and WvW, like every other CC skill.

It was an objectively terrible decision to blanket nerf the damage on all CC skills, but Arenanet seems to be happy with it.

 

In comparison to other CC skills, Earthquake might still deal massive damage though.

pve comparison on wiki:

 

367 (1.0)

 

yeaaaaa nope, that ain't it, chief

 

still a complete and utter lie

 

2 hours ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 I’m not sure ele has any skills that I’d classify as having massive damage.

 

31 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

why can't they have a couple really strong attacks...?

W.

A.

T.

 

have you never seen meteor shower?

fire grab?

flame uprising?

cauterizing strike?

dragon's tooth?

phoenix?

 

that's all just only some of fire, too

all of those in pvp basically have a coefficient of almost/over 1.5, and a base damage of over 500, which is pretty huge considering the class they're on, and what eles have access to overall

 

what are you even comparing any of this to?

 

no, not everything needs reaper's Death Spiral/Gravedigger base damage/coefficients to have "massive damage"

unless you actually mean "what does over 10k damage all the time in a single hit"

 

what even is your idea of "massive damage" or a "couple really strong attacks"?

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[TheDarkness.6947]

27 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

 

 

what are you even comparing any of this to?

 

no, not everything needs reaper's Death Spiral/Gravedigger base damage/coefficients to have "massive damage"

unless you actually mean "what does over 10k damage all the time in a single hit"

 

what even is your idea of "massive damage" or a "couple really strong attacks"?

 

 

I haven’t been playing long enough to have tried all the professions and know exactly what these skills are, but I’ve encountered a couple of builds that can one shot an ele from full health - over the course of couple seconds of channeling.  I’d say that’s massive damage.  I don’t think ele can return that favor to anyone, including another squishy ele, with one single skill.  It’s possible I’m wrong on that last point and would be delighted to be enlightened if so.

[Dadnir.5038]

26 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

I haven’t been playing long enough to have tried all the professions and know exactly what these skills are, but I’ve encountered a couple of builds that can one shot an ele from full health - over the course of couple seconds of channeling.  I’d say that’s massive damage.  I don’t think ele can return that favor to anyone, including another squishy ele, with one single skill.  It’s possible I’m wrong on that last point and would be delighted to be enlightened if so.

If you manage to make a foe eat all fiery GS fiery whirl's hits, you can easily outdamage death spiral, bonus is that you even have an evade frame. It's not easy to pull out in practice but it's an old trick.

[vilkanor.3072]

19 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

W.

A.

T.

 

have you never seen meteor shower?

fire grab?

flame uprising?

cauterizing strike?

dragon's tooth?

phoenix?

 

now:

meteor shower = ridiculously long casting time and easy telegraphed, 1800k max critical hit over 5 targets that can easily dodge

fire grab = 2500k critical hit vs player (8k vs basic mob)

dragon's tooth = slow, telegraphed, incredibly easy to avoid 1k damage

phoenix = slow, predictable, 300 damage

 

then (2012/2013):

meteor shower = ridiculously long casting time and easy telegraphed, uncapped AoE damage, infinite hitbox, wreaks havoc and despair on enemy zerg

fire grab = 18k critical hit sends shivers of terror in gankin's group spine that dared to face the lone roamer

dragon's tooth = slow, telegraphed, incredibly easy to avoid 10k damage severely punish lazy gameplay from opponents

phoenix = slow, predictable, 3k damage sends opponent to the Mysts

 

current Elementalist is a joke; on any of my alts I can do 10x better with 1/10 of the effort

[The Boz.2038]

20 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

base damage of over 500

Sorry, base damage?
 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

 

now:

meteor shower = ridiculously long casting time and easy telegraphed, 1800k max critical hit over 5 targets that can easily dodge

fire grab = 2500k critical hit vs player (8k vs basic mob)

dragon's tooth = slow, telegraphed, incredibly easy to avoid 1k damage

phoenix = slow, predictable, 300 damage

 

then (2012/2013):

meteor shower = ridiculously long casting time and easy telegraphed, uncapped AoE damage, infinite hitbox, wreaks havoc and despair on enemy zerg

fire grab = 18k critical hit sends shivers of terror in gankin's group spine that dared to face the lone roamer

dragon's tooth = slow, telegraphed, incredibly easy to avoid 10k damage severely punish lazy gameplay from opponents

phoenix = slow, predictable, 3k damage sends opponent to the Mysts

 

current Elementalist is a joke; on any of my alts I can do 10x better with 1/10 of the effort

I'm pretty sure Phoenix was hitting a bit harder than 3k in 2012/13.
Don't also forget that we've got unique self-punishment mechanics like -10% dmg on Meteor Sprinkler(I'm still kitten curious though, if you hit same enemy like 5 times and all hits were "evaded/blocked by aegis/shield/whatever", will 6th hit be considered as first hit or will be reduced %dmg) or "do kaboom after switching from fire attument and pay up-to 10might for that 2~3k if lucky" and many more.
A lot of stuff that hit Ele is questionable to say the least.

[TheDarkness.6947]

On 7/17/2021 at 4:55 PM, Zeesh.7286 said:

lightning rod baby

 

So I guess my observation in PvP is that to trigger LR, you actually have to knock someone down.  I’m assuming there must be some professions with an “endless candy bowl of stability to share with friends” skill or trait.  Because the overwhelming majority of times I’ve used this skill, it doesn’t knock anyone down.  I’m actually not sure I’ve knocked anyone down with it ever.  So my “massive” #4 earthquake turns out to not do anything at all.  Baby - there’s an earthquake and nobody cares.

 

Well, that’s not strictly true.  It does do these things:

 

1.  It does somewhere in the vicinity of 10 damage, as we’ve established.

 

2. It goes on a 30 second CD.  It’s going to be 30 seconds before I can use it to do pretty much nothing again, assuming I live that long because-

 

3.  I think it also makes a giant sucking sound that enemies can hear.  I think this alerts enemies who were previously oblivious to my presence that I am there.  You know, enemies that can actually deal massive damage.

 

I dunno, maybe this spell would be better if it also granted protection or something. So that when you have to run away from the enemies you just alerted to the potential for a free fallen hero chest, you can enjoy the run for a little longer…

 

[The Boz.2038]

Honestly, the way some profs (Guardian, Dragonhunter, Revenant, Firebrand, mainly) get stacks upon stacks of Stability on a none cooldown, I really don't understand why some player skills that *really should*, don't pulse their CCs at all. Pulse CCs is *all the rage* with PvE mobs, making a good 75% of all stability skills pretty much useless in 75% of the important encounters.

Earthquake, Gust, Updraft sound like prime candidates.

[TheDarkness.6947]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Honestly, the way some profs (Guardian, Dragonhunter, Revenant, Firebrand, mainly) get stacks upon stacks of Stability on a none cooldown, I really don't understand why some player skills that *really should*, don't pulse their CCs at all. Pulse CCs is *all the rage* with PvE mobs, making a good 75% of all stability skills pretty much useless in 75% of the important encounters.

Earthquake, Gust, Updraft sound like prime candidates.

 

That could help I guess.  I have been able to knock a foe or two around with tornado, presumably because I can move around and manually pulse it a couple times, and occasionally sneak one inside a brief window of stab gap?

 

I’m not even sure why I pulled this toon out of Nabkha where it was able to gloriously fulfill its obvious destiny of opening 3 chests and logging out.  I guess some part of my brain really wants to reconcile why anet says ele is in a good place, and yet playing one feels so bad to me.  All I can figure is that they are basing “good place” on the notion that they have quelled  any and all complaints that anything about ele is too strong.

[Zeesh.7286]

14 hours ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

So I guess my observation in PvP is that to trigger LR, you actually have to knock someone down.  I’m assuming there must be some professions with an “endless candy bowl of stability to share with friends” skill or trait.  Because the overwhelming majority of times I’ve used this skill, it doesn’t knock anyone down.  I’m actually not sure I’ve knocked anyone down with it ever.  So my “massive” #4 earthquake turns out to not do anything at all.  Baby - there’s an earthquake and nobody cares.

 

Well, that’s not strictly true.  It does do these things:

 

1.  It does somewhere in the vicinity of 10 damage, as we’ve established.

 

2. It goes on a 30 second CD.  It’s going to be 30 seconds before I can use it to do pretty much nothing again, assuming I live that long because-

 

3.  I think it also makes a giant sucking sound that enemies can hear.  I think this alerts enemies who were previously oblivious to my presence that I am there.  You know, enemies that can actually deal massive damage.

 

I dunno, maybe this spell would be better if it also granted protection or something. So that when you have to run away from the enemies you just alerted to the potential for a free fallen hero chest, you can enjoy the run for a little longer…

 

I hit plat this season on a LR Tempest build from a G2 placement. Though I did it on a Warhorn and not dagger offhand. TBH Stab is not an issue for LR builds. You're supposed to pay attention to the enemy icon and CC them when they DON'T have stab pulsing. You can't fart damage. Bursts are supposed to go out at the right moment when the enemy has wasted dodges/heals/stabs etc. The problem isn't LR on ele. The other builds and classes are way too overtuned. Elementalist skills are too telegraphed compared to some of the instant kitten or minimally telegraphed skills that other classes can churn out. Only warriors are similar in that they have big telegraphed skills and need to bait out CDs/watch enemy to unleash bursts. Anyway my point about LR was just a tongue in cheek joke that unlike other classes, elementalists can actually trait their CCs to do massive damage. How viable LR is or isn't is a completely different topic and honestly dagger offhand can use a bit of buffing on skill cast at the very least. Focus is just too good because the skills are instant and the sustain it gives is amazing. Dagger skills like Earthquake, churning earth, updraft are too telegraphed to properly use in competitive gameplay and only ride the lightning is saving the off hand from being completely useless.  

[TheDarkness.6947]

4 hours ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

I hit plat this season on a LR Tempest build from a G2 placement. Though I did it on a Warhorn and not dagger offhand. TBH Stab is not an issue for LR builds. You're supposed to pay attention to the enemy icon and CC them when they DON'T have stab pulsing. You can't fart damage. Bursts are supposed to go out at the right moment when the enemy has wasted dodges/heals/stabs etc. The problem isn't LR on ele. The other builds and classes are way too overtuned. Elementalist skills are too telegraphed compared to some of the instant kitten or minimally telegraphed skills that other classes can churn out. Only warriors are similar in that they have big telegraphed skills and need to bait out CDs/watch enemy to unleash bursts. Anyway my point about LR was just a tongue in cheek joke that unlike other classes, elementalists can actually trait their CCs to do massive damage. How viable LR is or isn't is a completely different topic and honestly dagger offhand can use a bit of buffing on skill cast at the very least. Focus is just too good because the skills are instant and the sustain it gives is amazing. Dagger skills like Earthquake, churning earth, updraft are too telegraphed to properly use in competitive gameplay and only ride the lightning is saving the off hand from being completely useless.  

 

Don’t you think you should be able to fart some big damage, though?  I mean, obviously other professions can do that, because I’ve been hit by it.  And I bet they are doing it without spending nearly as much time micro-managing staying alive - because they have a higher health pool, better armor, good passive sustain, or all of the above.

 

So if an ele can’t put out some massive damage during the moments it manages to stay upright, what’s it’s special thing?  That you have to micro-manage every aspect of playing it to get average results?

 

We could say that other professions are over-tuned, but they just did several rounds of balance passes.  So, personally, I would say that’s the new normal, and that ele is under-tuned.

[Zeesh.7286]

3 hours ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

Don’t you think you should be able to fart some big damage, though?  I mean, obviously other professions can do that, because I’ve been hit by it.  And I bet they are doing it without spending nearly as much time micro-managing staying alive - because they have a higher health pool, better armor, good passive sustain, or all of the above.

 

So if an ele can’t put out some massive damage during the moments it manages to stay upright, what’s it’s special thing?  That you have to micro-manage every aspect of playing it to get average results?

 

We could say that other professions are over-tuned, but they just did several rounds of balance passes.  So, personally, I would say that’s the new normal, and that ele is under-tuned.

imho the damage part is perfectly fine. Berserkers/Marauders on LR deals massive damage. The problem is that on berserker amulet, ele has nothing for HP. DH/Core burst guard also runs berserker and has low HP but it has armor and aegis/invuln + more heals/ burst condi cleanse and escape options with trapper runes. If you take Marauders on ele, you get a bit more HP to survive and sustain. But like if you want to play oneshot burst builds marauders isn't really fun and won't pop those same numbers as a berserker ele but like I said, on berserkers amulet other classes and glass builds like ranger/DH/DE/Mesmer make more sense because they come with better sustain/mitigation/escape tools while running a squishy glass build.. so imho the issue is with ele sustain. It forces us to give up on playing glass builds and instead take up tanky condi routes with weaver or just play support tempest.

 

I once made a post about asking for standardizing base HP/Armor across classes since it made zero sense that an ele running a berserker amulet has less HP than a ranger on berserker amulet not to mention lower armor class but people started QQing about how oppressive it would make sword condi weavers wtih 20k hp and how light/medium/heavy armor and HP differences in pvp were balanced (LMAO). Meanwhile.. Necros runs around with that so much more HP as a light armor class running damage amulets and on top of have shroud/barrier... *rolls eyes*  

[vilkanor.3072]

13 hours ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

imho the damage part is perfectly fine.

well this is deeply debatable (as I mentioned elsewhere, Ele peak performance was reached in 2013 after the second patch, then went downhill from there), but let's assume for a moment that I accept that statement as valid: no hardcore ele fan would find any other legit reason to complain other than "sustainability vs complexity", "risks vs rewards" if you prefer. In whatever battle an Ele is thrown, it's always too busy trying to staying alive while 'playing piano' to  do anything else.

On ANY other class I play I can do 10x more with 1/10th of the effort, and I only die in a confrontation if >I< make a critical mistake, and not due to some inherent class deficiency.

 

There are plenty of ways to fix this, of course, but Anet is adamant into keeping Ele in this sorry state for God only knows what reason