EOD Stream on July 27 has to say something about RAIDS.

[yann.1946]

29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I doubt it. This has been discussed ad infinitum so ... it's not like we are seeing anything new here. Whatever your point is, it's been covered before and I'm certain I've felt the same way then  as I do now. 

 

Then again, if I 'missed' your point, you didn't exactly elaborate here either, so you probably already know how that was going to work out for you if you did. 

Fine i'll elaborate (although you could have actually tried to read what i wrote.), my point is that the lack of interest argument in the beginning was wrong back then because we specificly had quotes of devs stating the exact opposite. And people who know feel vindicates because the outcome is how they predicted where still wrong back then.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Fine i'll elaborate (although you could have actually tried to read what i wrote.), my point is that the lack of interest argument in the beginning was wrong back then because we specificly had quotes of devs stating the exact opposite. And people who know feel vindicates because the outcome is how they predicted where still wrong back then.

OK, but we are talking about now, so what happened 'back then' has no relevance. Whatever the reason we don't have raids ... why would anyone think that reason isn't still relevant now? 

 

See, I didn't miss your point. I just understand that what some dev said 'back then' about raid interest doesn't matter to determining if we should have raids in EoD. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, lack of resources is an out-of-raids issue, so no, we're not ignoring those.

Well people sort of are if they are arguing that the reasons raids failed where inevitable.

 

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Some of the still remaining players might be saying that now, but it's not what the community was talking then. Even nowadays you will find a lot of raiders saying that one wing per 9 months is simply not sustainable, and then there were quite a number of those that considered twice a year to be an absolute minimum, and anything below that to be an outrage and a sign of dev betrayal.

People would have considered it dev betrayal because there was a specific expectation said. But even then people would have been way happier with a slow but consistent schedule then uncertainty. This is similar to how the reveal of the coming of an expac invigorated lots of players even though it was still far away.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Basically, it may seem to the remaining members of the community that once per 9 months is okay as long as it is stable, but that is only because all those that did not consider it okay already left.

More would have stayed its that simple. Not all ofcourse. 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nah. I'd think they are just wasting resources. Because there isn't any more raiders now than there were when they abandoned that content (if anything, those numbers have probably went down since then), nor is there more resources to go around.

So when they'd make the claim that their are enough people to warrent development you'd think they'd lie about it?

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's a saying about attempting to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, you know.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Thinking that they can just start doing raids again, without ultimately ending up in the very same situation we're here now is at best naive. It just won;t work - not without some major changes to the whole raid paradigm at the very least.

 

This is you ignoring externalities relating to raids decline. you said you would not do that, and here you are doing it. 

 

[yann.1946]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, but we are talking about now, so what happened 'back then' has no relevance. Whatever the reason we don't have raids ... why would anyone think that reason isn't still relevant now? 

 

See, I didn't miss your point. I just understand that what some dev said 'back then' about raid interest doesn't matter to determining if we should have raids in EoD. 

you absolutely missed it, but i understand that for you this is just about not wanting raids. For me it is about actually having good reasons for my opinions.  

 

A bad argument then does not suddenly become a good argument later. People are arguing from this prism that the downfall of raids was inevitable and feel that they are right because at present raids are in decline. But that does not make that way of viewing things correct. And personally that way of thinking is extremely destructive in general.

[Obtena.7952]

Again, this has been discussed. There are probably MULTIPLE reasons we don't have raids, all inter-related between interest, revenues, sustainability, etc ...  not just a single one that you think you can dismiss with an argument or that at some point in the past wasn't relevant that is now. 

 

And whatever those reasons are, why would you think they are no longer relevant now?

Edited July 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

7 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

you absolutely missed it, but i understand that for you this is just about not wanting raids. For me it is about actually having good reasons for my opinions.  

 

A bad argument then does not suddenly become a good argument later. People are arguing from this prism that the downfall of raids was inevitable and feel that they are right because at present raids are in decline. But that does not make that way of viewing things correct. And personally that way of thinking is extremely destructive in general.

Obtena just gives us a mythology lesson on 'Sisyphus work'. Doesn't matter what argument you're going to use, discussing raids with Obeta is futile 🙂

[Teratus.2859]

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Small correction, their where lot of negative preconceptions from the beginning. Also the dropoff also correlates with a general dropoff in population of the game, what a curious point.

Yeah that's why I said in part, It's not the sole reason, just a contributing factor 🙂
 

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

This would be true if you ignore the problems raids experienced which where not raid related.

This again is another case of contributing factors, I don't disagree that there were also others issues as well.
 

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Sure but this is a non argument, because you would have always said that the playerbase raids attract is to small. This is my point, you think you where right to make these arguments in the beginning but they where not correct then.

 

Edit: to clarify, if they suddenly revealed that the raid population was big enough to warrant more support, would you stop making that argument? Or would you still argue that they appeal to to little of the playerbase. 

It was a problem I expected eventually may happen but in the beginning I didn't make claims that the community was too small at the time, it really wasn't back then and raids were still a new thing Anet was invested in and a lot of players were interested in.
My arguments back then were far more focused on the inclusivity of raids, and the lack of in game tools available to players who wanted to raid but were struggling to get into it.

Even if Anet did come out and say that raids had a nice sized playerbase I would still argue for those tool's yes.
I've always been in support of options in raids and of the creation of a more casual raiding community like dungeons and even fractals has.
This would only contribute to fixing the population problem, which is why I bring it up in discussions about the playerbase issue in raiding.
But the small playerbase problem in raids isn't the reason for why I supported those things and continue to support them 🙂
 

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

You say you'll have to disagree, but then agree with me. That is pretty weird to me. 🙂 

But glad you agree with me though.

Hehe it was more of a I disagree in part what you said but you're not technically wrong kinda thing 🙂

It is true that you don't need the majority invested, which is what you said.
But it's also true that you do need enough people invested, which is what I said ^^

That's all I was really trying to say with that, I just babbled on a lot more lol

[Obtena.7952]

50 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Doesn't matter what argument you're going to use, discussing raids with Obeta is futile 🙂

Right ... because there is no reason to think the same reasons raids were stopped aren't still relevant to keep them from coming back. 

 

Pretending there are all these great reasons to have new raids in EoD is futile as well because if that was true, Anet wouldn't be waiting for EoD to put them in game. If that was true, Anet wouldn't have stopped putting them in the game in the first place. Frankly, if we see hints of raids for EoD as they were implemented previously, it's just a sign that Anet is tone-deaf, to their OWN reasons for halting raid development. Hence, my first comment in this thread. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Well people sort of are if they are arguing that the reasons raids failed where inevitable.

No. Fall of raids was not inevitable. Fall of raids as they were designed in gw2 however was something that at the very least had a very high probability of ending in failure. If something was completely inevitable however, it would be the failure of any and all means that were undertaken to increase raid popularity (the "stepstones to raid" concept). That's because those completely ignored the primary issues behind raids' low popularity.

 

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

People would have considered it dev betrayal because there was a specific expectation said.

People had those expectations even before that statement about possible (hint: as in: not certain) raid schedule.

 

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

But even then people would have been way happier with a slow but consistent schedule then uncertainty.

Some would, most would not.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

This is similar to how the reveal of the coming of an expac invigorated lots of players even though it was still far away.

No. The reveal of an expansion invigorated a lot of players, because those players were concerned about whether GW2 has a future at all. Raiders however never had any doubt about that. Even now many raiders don't really believe raids got abandoned and think they will be picked again "any time now".

 

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

More would have stayed its that simple. Not all ofcourse. 

Yes, some might have stayed for longer, that's true, but i don't think that would have a significant impact. At best it would have delayed the decay of the community a little.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

So when they'd make the claim that their are enough people to warrent development you'd think they'd lie about it?

Well, in such a case i'd have a reason to think that one of those statements was indeed not really true. Besides, knowing Anet and knowing how they dislike to admit to things like that, i'm quite sure that them saying that they can't justify further raid development due to low population was either massively delayed, was significantly understating things, or both. If the situation was close, they'd have kept being silent on the issue. So, if they suddenly changed their tune, i'd be highly suspicious of that.

 

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yeah that's why I said in part, It's not the sole reason, just a contributing factor 🙂
 

This again is another case of contributing factors, I don't disagree that there were also others issues as well.
 

It was a problem I expected eventually may happen but in the beginning I didn't make claims that the community was too small at the time, it really wasn't back then and raids were still a new thing Anet was invested in and a lot of players were interested in.
My arguments back then were far more focused on the inclusivity of raids, and the lack of in game tools available to players who wanted to raid but were struggling to get into it.

 

Quote

Even if Anet did come out and say that raids had a nice sized playerbase I would still argue for those tool's yes.
I've always been in support of options in raids and of the creation of a more casual raiding community like dungeons and even fractals has.
This would only contribute to fixing the population problem, which is why I bring it up in discussions about the playerbase issue in raiding.
But the small playerbase problem in raids isn't the reason for why I supported those things and continue to support them 🙂
 

 

Quote

 

Hehe it was more of a I disagree in part what you said but you're not technically wrong kinda thing 🙂

It is true that you don't need the majority invested, which is what you said.
But it's also true that you do need enough people invested, which is what I said ^^

That's all I was really trying to say with that, I just babbled on a lot more lol

Oh i agree, its just that i do not think that that statement is useful in any way when discussing in these forums. As we do not really know what that threshold is and if a specific part meets that threshold. People use it mostly to dismiss content they do not like (im not saying your doing that), like we do not need pvp to little people play it, we do not need jps to little people play it etc.  

 

As its more a dev thing. (hence why we reference the dev quote when talking about that part).  Its just that people would still make that argument even if we did not have the devs quote

 

 

[yann.1946]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. Fall of raids was not inevitable. Fall of raids as they were designed in gw2 however was something that at the very least had a very high probability of ending in failure. If something was completely inevitable however, it would be the failure of any and all means that were undertaken to increase raid popularity (the "stepstones to raid" concept). That's because those completely ignored the primary issues behind raids' low popularity.

 

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

People had those expectations even before that statement about possible (hint: as in: not certain) raid schedule.

Their are anyways extremist in any community, all people i raided with never had such expectations. And im extremely sceptical that any remotely relevant part of the raid population had this idea about a raid every three months.

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

Some would, most would not.

 

No. The reveal of an expansion invigorated a lot of players, because those players were concerned about whether GW2 has a future at all. Raiders however never had any doubt about that. Even now many raiders don't really believe raids got abandoned and think they will be picked again "any time now".

This tells me you have not been paying attention. Normally i would say unaware,, but you are active enough on the forum to know better.  The whole time people where worried that w7 would not appear. and no reasonable person after the devquote expected another raid soon. 

 

That is the reason we get posts like this, if people are that sure that a new raid will come out they would not ask for them. (nobody asks for more lw for example.)

 

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

Yes, some might have stayed for longer, that's true, but i don't think that would have a significant impact. At best it would have delayed the decay of the community a little.

 

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, in such a case i'd have a reason to think that one of those statements was indeed not really true. Besides, knowing Anet and knowing how they dislike to admit to things like that, i'm quite sure that them saying that they can't justify further raid development due to low population was either massively delayed, was significantly understating things, or both. If the situation was close, they'd have kept being silent on the issue. So, if they suddenly changed their tune, i'd be highly suspicious of that.

 

Is their anything Anet could say that would make you think extra raids are a good idea? Because if not then their is not really a conversation to be had.

[Obtena.7952]

50 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Is their anything Anet could say that would make you think extra raids are a good idea? Because if not then their is not really a conversation to be had.

As CURRENTLY implemented, not a chance. If Anet changes how raids are implemented to be more accessible to more players, then we can talk because obviously, as implemented ... even ANet thinks they can't sustain raid development. 

 

EDIT ... and as suspected, I heard NOTHING about raids in the livestream. Sounds like Strikes are their approach with two levels of difficulty 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

EOD is getting strike missions with "hard" CMs per stream (See Cameron Rich section).

So it's the inverse of "easy mode raids", the default difficulty would be the easier one.

It was totally expected however, seeing how Forging Steel has opt-in CMs.

When the full stream is up, go about 40 minutes in. He even mentioned raiders as the target demographic for the CMs.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

EOD is getting strike missions with "hard" CMs per stream (See Cameron Rich section).

So it's the inverse of "easy mode raids", the default difficulty would be the easier one.

It lets them introduce easy mode raids without calling them that way. And since the easy mode will be the default difficulty, they will be able to just cancel CMs or make them easier in the future if those won't work out.

 

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It was totally expected however, seeing how Forging Steel has opt-in CMs.

Forging Steel and DRMs. They were preparing for this for some time already it seems.

 

 

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

 

 

Oh i agree, its just that i do not think that that statement is useful in any way when discussing in these forums. As we do not really know what that threshold is and if a specific part meets that threshold. People use it mostly to dismiss content they do not like (im not saying your doing that), like we do not need pvp to little people play it, we do not need jps to little people play it etc.  

 

As its more a dev thing. (hence why we reference the dev quote when talking about that part).  Its just that people would still make that argument even if we did not have the devs quote

 

 

I get what you mean no worries 🙂

I've dealt with raiders doing the same thing as well when people request easy modes and stuff too so it goes both ways quite a bit.
Usually why i've ended up arguing with a few in the past XD

Personally I don't want to see any of these game modes die off, i've got no hate for any of them.
Not particularly a fan of PvP.. but WvW I find more fun since the Warclaw was added.

But I want them all to succeed and grow their bases, I don't like seeing any parts of the game neglected.
Gw2 is too great a game to have chunks of neglected content, least that's my opinion.
This is also why i'm such a vocal advocate for the reintroduction of LW1 and upgrading a lot of the older content that needs it.
I just want Gw2 to be the best it can be 😄 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

So at this point, gw2 has gone 100% casual only. What was the big selling points? Fishing, boats and a black lion weapon set with footfalls. 

Say goodbye to getting a hall of chains level of content, you will now get recycled living story bosses. 

[Ayrilana.1396]

4 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

So at this point, gw2 has gone 100% casual only. What was the big selling points? Fishing, boats and a black lion weapon set with footfalls. 

Say goodbye to getting a hall of chains level of content, you will now get recycled living story bosses. 

 

But... but... strikes... and CM modes.... /s

 

But yeah.  It just seems like they double downed again on primarily focusing on one segment of MMO players which is one of the reasons why the game is in its current state (imo).

Edited July 27, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[yann.1946]

45 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

But... but... strikes... and CM modes.... /s

 

But yeah.  It just seems like they double downed again on primarily focusing on one segment of MMO players which is one of the reasons why the game is in its current state (imo).

That /s is quite unwarranted atm as its pretty feasible to get raid level encounters in cms.

[Obtena.7952]

53 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

But... but... strikes... and CM modes.... /s

 

But yeah.  It just seems like they double downed again on primarily focusing on one segment of MMO players which is one of the reasons why the game is in its current state (imo).

Yeah the important segment ... the money-spending one. 

 

EoD certainly did say something about raids though ... just not the things that the OP wanted said. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[yann.1946]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah the important segment ... the money-spending one. 

 

EoD certainly did say something about raids though ... just not the things that the OP wanted said. 

They did say that they wanted to cater to the raid community indeed.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, yann.1946 said:

They did say that they wanted to cater to the raid community indeed.

Sure ... just not with raids as we know them, which is exactly what anyone should have expected given how obviously Anet has regarded raids in the last 2.5 years. I'm good with that ... and so should everyone else if they had reasonable expectations to begin with. 

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

But... but... strikes... and CM modes.... /s

 

But yeah.  It just seems like they double downed again on primarily focusing on one segment of MMO players which is one of the reasons why the game is in its current state (imo).

If the CMs add raid-level difficulty, why is that not enough for you? It sounded like they were trying to appease everyone. I mean mythic WoW raiders don't complain that they get harder versions of the same bosses more casual players do....

[Krzysztof.5973]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

He even mentioned raiders as the target demographic for the CMs.

Hahahahaha 😂

[Klypto.1703]

Basically how its going to work is probably not too far apart from how the original Cantha content worked.  I know PvE will probably have less quantity of whatever it is you are rewarded for in the expansion.  Then WvW will probably have a higher quantity of whatever it may be.  However just speculating but based on problems with WvW its not far to say that each Cantha map in specific regions will be owned by specific Alliances.  So our current WvW maps will probably have limited windows of time where people are actually fighting on those maps.  In the off hours where there is less population it will probably be something similar to the original games map rotations which would be more friendly to people not in organized fight guilds.  This is just purely speculation but it would require them to establish Alliances before the expansion comes out like they have stated and how they vaguely talked about the maps being utilized.  So basically this will be how night capping, population, and actual rewards will finally be handled.

[Fangoth.4503]

3 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

But... but... strikes... and CM modes.... /s

 

But yeah.  It just seems like they double downed again on primarily focusing on one segment of MMO players which is one of the reasons why the game is in its current state (imo).

strikes is too hard for the average player and too easy for raiders at best gonna be a source of complaint from most players and an afk gold farm on the raider side
They would have been better off doing a dj + a raid to please both sides or to do one but that can be in 2 difficulty rather than an intermediate one that annoy most the player base