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Remember how the PVP scene is right now, when EoD drops.


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Power damage is the default across all games, big power skills generally have big telegraph, people can guess that getting hit by a big kitten stick is bad, but can't tell how much time they can spend

You do realize Conditions are the main reason this game is near braindead now right? think of it from another angle, the sheer amount of conditions (which the death log will show you, not overall dama

I'm really curious why you think this. just look at your death log man, If 98% of your health is lost from conditions, and your finished by a power strike. you really can't say it's a power meta

3 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

then enjoy rolling dice?

It is not dice, it is a coin flip, or less. It is better this way.

What is with everyone wanting to change core systems in the game these days ? 

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2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I think crit is outdated concept that has no place in pvp games, its just pointless RNG
The only place it has is pve as a flavor, but there everyone has 100% crit chance anyways

How many other changes you think would be needed to make a no-crit game work?

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18 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

its power bunker meta, to the point where even scourges run power.
stop with the condi hate

 

I'm really curious why you think this. just look at your death log man, If 98% of your health is lost from conditions, and your finished by a power strike. you really can't say it's a power meta

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2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

It is not dice, it is a coin flip, or less. It is better this way.

What is with everyone wanting to change core systems in the game these days ? 

I dont want to change it, its not worth the effort tbh.
But It does suck, after playing 99,8% crit chance build it opened my eyes more to the fact that RNG is a kitten

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44 minutes ago, Highlie.7641 said:

 

I'm really curious why you think this. just look at your death log man, If 98% of your health is lost from conditions, and your finished by a power strike. you really can't say it's a power meta

I will give you example.
You fight warrior, you get hit by skill X,Y,Z
X deals 5k dmg
Y deals 4k dmg
Z is a big boy and deals 8K dmg.
you took 17k dmg and died, nothing out of the ordinary.
You fight weaver.
Weaver hit you with skill A,B,C,D,E,F
A applies 4k burn
B applies 3k burn
C applies 10k burn
D applies 7k burn
E applies 5k burn
F applies 4k burn
Despite having 17k HP, you had to take over 30k worth of condis to go down due to cleansing.
When you finally went down he cleaved you for 30k dmg.
Instead off 17k burn damage in the log you see 47k, why ? because it all adds up. and it counts downstate damage too.
And since conditions keep ticking it constantly refreshes the death log.

Another example.
You fight nades holo for 2min ( somehow )
you go down and die, somehow, despite being hit by holo leap 5 times, its shown only once in the log, why ? it timed out of death log.
But boy oh boy, EE is there as it proced 11 times, each time refreshing the timer.

TLDR
Deathlog is not very reliable

EDIT.
While playing condi soulbeast and using arcdps ( something that is actually reliable and works )
I see ~50% dmg as bleeding, ~25% dmg as poison, ~25% dmg as power.
 

Edited by Leonidrex.5649
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"Unreliable" and "death log." Name a more iconic duo in a competitive game. I remember when I played League of Legends and skills used to register all kinds of wacky on there. That was years ago now, and I remember them improving it by the time I stopped playing, but even so the death log isn't always a great indicator of what actually killed you. 

Add in something like what Leo is mentioning and it highlights how awful death logs can be. It's very easy for a death log to not give you the full story of your death in games, especially the longer and more drawn-out the fight becomes. This is true in pretty much every game.

Anyway, for condi vs. power... I don't see a meaningful difference, nor do I see one being a "better" or "worse" meta than the other by default. Condi bunkers and draws it out? Okay, that's literally what DoT classes are known for in EVERY game that has them unless they specifically make them an assassin-style dot glass cannon who bleeds/poisons you out quickly but dies quickly themselves if locked down, so saying it's terrible for that isn't really a point worth noting since that's entirely opinion. And considering the popularity of DoT classes in various games... Tanky DoT style gameplay isn't going anywhere. 

For Power... Power's balance is precarious. Either it's high enough as a base on top of other conditions (say, Weakness/chill/fear/whatever else spam) so it doesn't have to fight quickly to wear you down via attrition, which means it bunkers all the same like the condi that people dread does, like say Scourge does right now... but if it can do that, then someone else can often see a squishier target and quickly blow them up if they both do build glass cannon (see: Power Herald against an unaware squishy, such as when Herald would literally blink from across a wall and down the target before most people had much time to react). 

Both Power and Condi have their upsides and downsides, and different things counter both, and even among both varieties they don't play the same. Power Scourge isn't winning the fight the same way Prot Holo or Power Herald are. Likewise, Condi Thief isn't fighting the same same way a Core Trapper Ranger is, who isn't fighting the same way a Core Condi Necro is, and so on. 

Also I've never much understood the point of Power vs. Condi for the simple fact that is: If a Power build hits you, say he hits for 4k... you took the hit, there's nothing further to mitigate it. The Condi puts some bleed stacks, let's say you've got 15. You'll either take a lot of damage because you couldn't cleanse it or you won't take a lot because you cleansed it when it was starting to become a problem and now they have to ramp up again. If you eat a power burst vs. a condi bomb, I don't see a meaningful distinction, except the fact that condi bombs take time to resolve their damage, so if you have cleanse they just strictly do less than if you ate that burst earlier because, again, you already ate it, there is no cleansing it after the fact. The only distinction I see here is that Power meta, if it isn't Power Scourge Bunker Mode, is just less forgiving. It has nothing to do with bulking up, because Power can also bunker if they have to. But something being more or less forgiving also isn't much of a statement on whether something is good or bad by itself.

Edited by Caitir.6947
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@Caitir.6947
ah classic lol death recap.
getting killed by a dragon using statik shiv, despite not fighting dragon.
or death log showing you getting killed by a smite ( back when only mobs could be smitten )

or good old ????
or just skills from other classes being shown in deathlog, or you gaining assist for your own death by somehow damaging yourself.
Even now, after entire map, game, engine, death-log and client rework, just 5 days ago, my sterak's gage blocked -192 damage for me 😄

As for condi vs power, I play both, I dont mind either. There are issues with both.
Power? its rng, crits matter a bunch, when power dominates there is bunker toughness/protection spam that follows ( kind of like right now ), and the damage can scale REALLY high, or REALLY low. LOADS of damage multipliers.
Condi? its feast and famine, good cleansing can make you virtually useless, bad cleansing might make you kill people by a mistake with a random splash damage. God knows I 100%-0% people with entangle + trap while I was focusing someone else.

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19 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Cut for Size
 

 

You do realize Conditions are the main reason this game is near braindead now right? think of it from another angle, the sheer amount of conditions (which the death log will show you, not overall damage numbers....) are the reason they keep having to add more cheese to professions, you know their is a reason they spent the last few years buffing SA and DD right...   

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Highlie.7641 said:

 

You do realize Conditions are the main reason this game is near braindead now right? think of it from another angle, the sheer amount of conditions (which the death log will show you, not overall damage numbers....) are the reason they keep having to add more cheese to professions, you know their is a reason they spent the last few years buffing SA and DD right...   

 

 

 

 

 

 

this is your subjective opinion

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Speculating on the new expansion may be fun in some context, but getting angry over how imabalanced and terrible and busted everything is going to be is just pointless.

We don't know anything at this point, what they deliver could be worse than PoF, or better than HoT, or anything inbetween. This is their last chance, so they will definitely try.

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9 hours ago, Highlie.7641 said:

 

You do realize Conditions are the main reason this game is near braindead now right? think of it from another angle, the sheer amount of conditions (which the death log will show you, not overall damage numbers....) are the reason they keep having to add more cheese to professions, you know their is a reason they spent the last few years buffing SA and DD right...   

 

 

 

 

 

 

go to metabattle and look at meta tab, tell me how many conditions builds are there.
ah wait, there is grand total of 0. huh? I thought its the condi builds ruining the meta, with their brainless bunker, endless condi damage. And while metabattle is not the be all end all on what is meta, its a decent at showing what is commonly played, and its not condi.
engi is always power, necro is power, thief is always power, rev is power 99% of the time, ranger is always power
and the only 2 classes that play condi is ele and mesmer ( if someone even still touches them lol )
its all prot holo, nades holo, power bunker scourge, support guard, sb renegade, power herald, reaper, d/p thief.
those builds make like 90-95% of the games at plat level.
EDIT
also loads of power core ranger recently, no codi to be seen.

Edited by Leonidrex.5649
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It won't end

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

go to metabattle and look at meta tab, tell me how many conditions builds are there.
ah wait, there is grand total of 0. huh? I thought its the condi builds ruining the meta, with their brainless bunker, endless condi damage. And while metabattle is not the be all end all on what is meta, its a decent at showing what is commonly played, and its not condi.
engi is always power, necro is power, thief is always power, rev is power 99% of the time, ranger is always power
and the only 2 classes that play condi is ele and mesmer ( if someone even still touches them lol )
its all prot holo, nades holo, power bunker scourge, support guard, sb renegade, power herald, reaper, d/p thief.
those builds make like 90-95% of the games at plat level.
EDIT
also loads of power core ranger recently, no codi to be seen.

 

It won't end till conditions is completely out of pvp and mesmers have removed out of the game, it was never about balance it was about not willing to learn.

Edited by Genesis.5169
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On 7/23/2021 at 4:55 AM, GeneralBM.5781 said:

why do i feel like ranger is going to dominate on arrival 😰

I have no doubt that ranger elite will be complained to hell and nerfed to mediocre levels months after, which would result in yet again the same pvp meta since 2015 aka : guardians-engi-necro-revs, the same 4 classes spammed by top teams for the last 5 years.

 

 

 

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On 7/24/2021 at 9:24 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

power has stupid RNG, kitten tells, instant damage, relies on burst/1shots, and the only counter to power is having enough toughness, and you almost always reach a point where you can face-tank the damage anyways.
Gradually taking someone down as is case with conditions is much better then spamming CC, and 1shoting when it lands.
Why do you think its bunker meta still? because kitten like nades holo, power herald/renegade will STILL 1shot you if you dont take touguness/hp/protection. THIS is the issue with power.
1 Its rng as kitten
2 Its bursty/1shoty as kitten
3 Its a stat-check heavy.
Fighting LR weaver on slb I had maul hit for both 14k and 2,5k during a 1v1, which is kitten as fights should never come to dice-roll but in the power builds it always will, Ironically its the conditions that have % to chance traits but its power that relies on RNG to do its thing.
And when it comes to condi hate, its always the same. People are biased as kitten, and instead off blaming the right thing ( like in the posts before ) they blame all condi. Burn guard op? nerf all burning! 
Imagine if the same stupid bias approach was to all power things, oh no nades holo OP, lets nerf all power builds.

Conditions are more RNG than power will ever be in this game, IDK how you came to conclusion that power has stupid RNG.
In case of power you're sure that if enemy does big swing with his swap you should dodge it one way or another, doesn't matter if it hits for 500 or 15k, it simply should be dodged because it's dangerous to get hit by it either way.
In case of conditions you barely have any animations or barely visible one with some fancy hand finger movement that you need microscope to notice and on top of that you question if his 47513561837 traits are off cooldown or not, will you get only 3 conditions on next hit or only 7? Let's not forget about first-in-last-out rule which screw you up because of said RNG condi application, you have 1 cleanse left that will remove 3 conditions, if you're lucky next hit will only apply 8 burn, if unlucky you'll get burn, cripple, vulnerability, weakness, poison, blind, torment and now you press your last cleanse and you remove torment, blind and poison, but hey you still have 8 burn on you and new conditions are keep coming.
I'm pretty sure that feb patch have removed the most bursty stuff from the game, now they're few outliners that need nerfs and that's it.
Sustain vs Damage need better balancing.

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7 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Conditions are more RNG than power will ever be in this game, IDK how you came to conclusion that power has stupid RNG.
In case of power you're sure that if enemy does big swing with his swap you should dodge it one way or another, doesn't matter if it hits for 500 or 15k, it simply should be dodged because it's dangerous to get hit by it either way.
In case of conditions you barely have any animations or barely visible one with some fancy hand finger movement that you need microscope to notice and on top of that you question if his 47513561837 traits are off cooldown or not, will you get only 3 conditions on next hit or only 7? Let's not forget about first-in-last-out rule which screw you up because of said RNG condi application, you have 1 cleanse left that will remove 3 conditions, if you're lucky next hit will only apply 8 burn, if unlucky you'll get burn, cripple, vulnerability, weakness, poison, blind, torment and now you press your last cleanse and you remove torment, blind and poison, but hey you still have 8 burn on you and new conditions are keep coming.
I'm pretty sure that feb patch have removed the most bursty stuff from the game, now they're few outliners that need nerfs and that's it.
Sustain vs Damage need better balancing.

RNG is built into every single power hit in the game, the only exception is int sigil and ranger 100% crit traits.
Yet somehow you take RNG condi out of your kitten, there is almost no RNG in conditions, personally I dont know any, pleast point me out to ANY rng condi being used. ( that matters )
Your enemy uses loads of burning and covers it, its him playing well and properly, if you dont cleanse properly you get punished for it, die, and cry on the forum. Either cleanse instantly, or wait out the cover conditions, or if you cant, use invulns or other safe skills, or just throw a bunch of cleansing to overpower the covers. People are so entitled tbh, they get hit by burst AND cover, which is usually 4+ skills, and get upset that they cant press 1 button to remove it all.

Edited by Leonidrex.5649
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7 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

RNG is built into every single power hit in the game, the only exception is int sigil and ranger 100% crit traits.
Yet somehow you take RNG condi out of your kitten, there is almost no RNG in conditions, personally I dont know any, pleast point me out to ANY rng condi being used. ( that matters )
Your enemy uses loads of burning and covers it, its him playing well and properly, if you dont cleanse properly you get punished for it, die, and cry on the forum. Either cleanse instantly, or wait out the cover conditions, or if you cant, use invulns or other safe skills, or just throw a bunch of cleansing to overpower the covers. People are so entitled tbh, they get hit by burst AND cover, which is usually 4+ skills, and get upset that they cant press 1 button to remove it all.

Your "rng built into every single power hit in the game" applies in 99% if not 100% games, it's possible variable from x to y values and nothing beside that, in case of conditions you just need to look at random build like condi druid and kitten ancient seed how it works, it have cooldown, but it triggers on whatever disabling stuff druid will use, now you need to kitten play in the prediction game: "which of his cc will activate it, when he'll use it and what kind of other kitten condies will he randomly apply from chain-reaction traits" and that goes for every single condi build in the game, that's the real RNG here, which somehow you ignore thinking it's some uber high IQ gameplay design, which is not.
Your enemy uses loads of burning and covers it without even him understanding what and which traits have activated to do so, because he even doesn't follow his traits cooldowns, it simply happened this time, but if he tries to do it next time it won't work because it's on cooldown. Some builds with one button press will apply 6+ conditions, the prediction game starts now, will he apply same amount of conditions after x seconds, if yes on which skill then, oh wait they'll trigger on whatever skill in most cases because they're chain-reaction traits. On top of that with fighting against condition builds you must pay more attention to your buff bar than enemy in 99% cases than what happens on your screen to even notice what enemy may be using. Poor mechanic and poor design.
Do you understand that or not? 

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10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Your "rng built into every single power hit in the game" applies in 99% if not 100% games, it's possible variable from x to y values and nothing beside that, in case of conditions you just need to look at random build like condi druid and kitten ancient seed how it works, it have cooldown, but it triggers on whatever disabling stuff druid will use, now you need to kitten play in the prediction game: "which of his cc will activate it, when he'll use it and what kind of other kitten condies will he randomly apply from chain-reaction traits" and that goes for every single condi build in the game, that's the real RNG here, which somehow you ignore thinking it's some uber high IQ gameplay design, which is not.
Your enemy uses loads of burning and covers it without even him understanding what and which traits have activated to do so, because he even doesn't follow his traits cooldowns, it simply happened this time, but if he tries to do it next time it won't work because it's on cooldown. Some builds with one button press will apply 6+ conditions, the prediction game starts now, will he apply same amount of conditions after x seconds, if yes on which skill then, oh wait they'll trigger on whatever skill in most cases because they're chain-reaction traits. On top of that with fighting against condition builds you must pay more attention to your buff bar than enemy in 99% cases than what happens on your screen to even notice what enemy may be using. Poor mechanic and poor design.
Do you understand that or not? 

you dont understand how RNG works do you? It stands for Random Number Generator.
What it boils down is rolling the dice and the dice deciding the outcome.
Ancient seeds has absolutely 0 kittening RNG factor whatsoever, it procs 100% of the time where its not on cooldown, if you cant track the cooldown its you being bad and not ancient seeds being RNG.
Most cover condis, at least in 1v1/2v2 is deliberate, the fact that you straight up reject the fact that someone using conditions might just might do something specific shows how biased you are.
Again, I am still waiting for any meaningful RNG condition build, as you are YET to provide one.
Meanwhile there doesn't exist a single power build without RNG factor ( crits ) And something as silly as weakness can swing 15k dmg combo into a 5k dmg combo.
Only actual RNG condi traits are apply X on crit which are useless anyways and contribute almost nothing.

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On 7/24/2021 at 7:05 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I name it how I see it, every meta abuse spec is power to the point of kittening scourge taking power amulet, and some people hate conditions so much they will convince themselves that it is condi meta. Whatevs.
EoD will probably introduce loads of broken kitten all around, cant wait to see new 1shot kitten power builds along with broken bunkers. And OFC new alacrity guard, we cant live without that.

Always seems to happen the hate of condis.

 

I get it, the way condies are built is annoying cause it bursts hard, but if it don't burst with the amount of stupid cleanses and condi corrupts, it wouldn't kill anyone.

 

When you have a class that can hit you with 2 hits for 5-10k and you complain about condis you def got bias there, or when stealth attack 40k.

 

I don't care if it has a weakness to bruiser or whatever, its impossible to predict 1 shot  with stuns and other ccs, and thats why it got nerfed.

 

If thats what it takes for mesmer to be viable is invisible 1 shot, then maybe chrono should be changed or remain the same until 1shot from stealth is removed.

Edited by Axl.8924
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7 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Always seems to happen the hate of condis.

 

I get it, the way condies are built is annoying cause it bursts hard, but if it don't burst with the amount of stupid cleanses and condi corrupts, it wouldn't kill anyone.

 

When you have a class that can hit you with 2 hits for 5-10k and you complain about condis you def got bias there, or when stealth attack 40k.

 

I don't care if it has a weakness to bruiser or whatever, its impossible to predict 1 shot  with stuns and other ccs, and thats why it got nerfed.

 

If thats what it takes for mesmer to be viable is invisible 1 shot, then maybe chrono should be changed or remain the same until 1shot from stealth is removed.

Im fine with people disliking or hating conditions. What I am not fine is people making up kitten to justify their hatred.
Like the troll above saying ancient seeds is RNG cuz hes too lazy or inept to count to 20.
And better yet, his hatred goes so deep that even if he gets outplayed he will always contribute it to some random rng taken out of his kitten.

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4 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Im fine with people disliking or hating conditions. What I am not fine is people making up kitten to justify their hatred.
Like the troll above saying ancient seeds is RNG cuz hes too lazy or inept to count to 20.
And better yet, his hatred goes so deep that even if he gets outplayed he will always contribute it to some random rng taken out of his kitten.


I wouldn't say its RNG, rather its maybe too easy spammable. Does stab counter  it? cause having a druid spam it is def annoying.

 

Also i think i have less a problem with the ideas of condition and more being able to spam lots of them all together at the same time as cc type conditions and when you get to ridiculous amounts of conditions stacked together to 1shot you like the way mirage used to do with ease while dodging or firebrand did.

 

I think it should still do damage, and it has to burst kinda cause if not it would be useless and nobody would use conditions.

I don't like this Nerf all conditions either and ignore how OP sometimes the burst of power can be.

 

Edited by Axl.8924
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5 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:


I wouldn't say its RNG, rather its maybe too easy spammable. Does stab counter  it? cause having a druid spam it is def annoying.

 

Also i think i have less a problem with the ideas of condition and more being able to spam lots of them all together at the same time as cc type conditions and when you get to ridiculous amounts of conditions stacked together to 1shot you like the way mirage used to do with ease while dodging or firebrand did.

 

I think it should still do damage, and it has to burst kinda cause if not it would be useless and nobody would use conditions.

Its as spammable as a trait with 20s cd can be, if you dont get controlled druid cant proc it, but some druid will use revocation on LB. Im not saying I like or enjoy or think ancient seeds is a good trait, but RNG it is not.
As for all the cover condis, condi build is SUPPOSED to do it. They will land their damageing conditions, and then try to cover them as much as possible. Its the literal gameplan of almost every single condition build.
If I apply 20k worth of condition there is no reason for me to apply more, it just makes it easier for you to cleanse. Instead I will try to cripple/immob/blind you to make it harder for you to remove it. Its how condi is supposed to be played.

EDIT
to give you an example, entangle can be either useless piece of kitten that you walk out of, or absolute 100%-0% elite. I will absolutely try to cover you in as much kitten as possible when I land it, cuz I know that if you dont remove the immob you will die. I will try to use it when you stand in pulsing poison trap, and I will use skills that apply cripple/poison to cover the immob as much as possible, its my win condition.

Its equivalent of power build stunning you, landing damage, then stunning again and landing damage again to kill you.

Edited by Leonidrex.5649
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13 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you dont understand how RNG works do you? It stands for Random Number Generator.
What it boils down is rolling the dice and the dice deciding the outcome.
Ancient seeds has absolutely 0 kittening RNG factor whatsoever, it procs 100% of the time where its not on cooldown, if you cant track the cooldown its you being bad and not ancient seeds being RNG.
Most cover condis, at least in 1v1/2v2 is deliberate, the fact that you straight up reject the fact that someone using conditions might just might do something specific shows how biased you are.
Again, I am still waiting for any meaningful RNG condition build, as you are YET to provide one.
Meanwhile there doesn't exist a single power build without RNG factor ( crits ) And something as silly as weakness can swing 15k dmg combo into a 5k dmg combo.
Only actual RNG condi traits are apply X on crit which are useless anyways and contribute almost nothing.

I'm aware what it stands for but RNG term fits more condition builds than power builds, since in case of power you have bracket from x to y and nothing beside, on top of that there are very specific factors that will trigger traits/runes/sigils that are more "predictable" or "calculated" than conditions, which you still ignore. 
Ancient seed is great example of RNG or if you want to be so word picking "Randomnes" aka "which skill will trigger it". It's a guess game, not a skill based game. This trait can be triggered by 4+ different skills and on top of that, even if you evade 1 of them, the next one still can trigger it. 

Today in WvW I've encountered the situation I've provided as an example, I've got condi bombed by some random teef and got confusion as first one and kitten load of cover condies, if not that I had more than 1 condie cleanse I would be screwed because of reapplication rate of that kitten.
It's not just counting cooldown of 1 trait though, it's 1 trait and 4+ skills that can be potential activator for it.
Funnily enough, the most access to said Weakness often happen to be condition builds, I wonder why...
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Deadeye_-_Poisonous_Rifle_Roamer - Here you go, I could search for more, but I'm pretty sure that you're capable of doing it yourself.

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