Our New Mesmer Elite Specialization: The Virtuoso

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

3 minutes ago, Zoser.7245 said:

I imagine that the Virtuoso will probably be one the 3 specializations available in the first event.  I have readed that each of the first three events will allow to play 3 different specializations and the final one, all them. So if you want to test them this month it's time to prepurchase the expansion... 

 

Just to clarify before anyone makes an uninformed purchase:

You don't need to pre-purchase to participate in the betas. They already confirmed everyone will be able to participate.

[Zoser.7245]

21 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Just to clarify before anyone makes an uninformed purchase:

You don't need to pre-purchase to participate in the betas. They already confirmed everyone will be able to participate.

Oh ok, thanks.  Edited. 👍

Edited July 29, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

No, you don't. If you did, it would mean that nowadays you can't cast Mirror Blade or pBerserker without a cover (Distortion, Aegies, Mirage Cloak, Stability). That's just not true.

 

Will it be different than playing instant Shatters? Yes! Will it be more difficult or less efficient in larger scale fights? Debatable, because baseline Shatters need Clones that die (or never appear because the targert of your Phantasm dies). It is different. Not worse. And that's exactly the point. What about small scale fights? Debatable! Because, saying it as someone who loved playing Interrupt Mesmer, actively interrupting a skill with less than 1s cast time needs a fast CC (preferably instant without traveltime, which is not the case for most) plus good prediction and enemy knowledge on the player side. Meaning, yes, you could be interrupted. But most interrupts actually happen by coincidence. Meaning, if you're experienced enough, you can avoid most by good positioning and executing your skills at the right time. And even if you're CC'd, you wouldn't have wasted your F's.

 

At least that's my opinion and why I feel the salt about the cast time being blown out proportion. Same for poor Warriors singing the song of too telegraphed and easily interrupted skills, by the way. 😅

It is not only about rupting, 3/4 is easy to dodge, its the same cast time of mirror blade which unless you pbs it you'll never hit someone the knows the game. 

Also I don't get why f3 is a daze, since you can no longer instantly follow up with f1. 

Will we only use it for the defensive aspect of it? Sounds boring. 

 

As for the f4 is also a poisoned gift, since it's a channeling you can no longer attack through it. 

 

I kind of like the concept of it but so far seems to me more flawed than anything.

 

Well, still a lot of time to correct these, mirage was also trash on betas. 

[lifeshoutslive.4163]

What's the consensus of the most probable weapon combinations? Dagger/Sword + Sword/Focus or sth? I need to prepare skins. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

37 minutes ago, lifeshoutslive.4163 said:

What's the consensus of the most probable weapon combinations? Dagger/Sword + Sword/Focus or sth? I need to prepare skins. 

 

Probably dagger/torch + greatsword. The spec doesn't want to get into melee range. And needs stealth to reposition. 

[lifeshoutslive.4163]

12 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Probably dagger/torch + greatsword. The spec doesn't want to get into melee range. And needs stealth to reposition. 

I meant endgame PvE, haha - in terms of PvP/WvW, you're right, although I could see it combined with Sword in PvP, too. 

[draxynnic.3719]

24 minutes ago, lifeshoutslive.4163 said:

I meant endgame PvE, haha - in terms of PvP/WvW, you're right, although I could see it combined with Sword in PvP, too. 

For instanced PvE, I expect it will use the same weapons as DPS chronos, unless the traits really synergise well with something else. I doubt dagger will end up outperforming sword in melee range.

[Lazze.9870]

On 7/28/2021 at 2:15 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

but I see what you mean. Ranger shipped with only off-hand dagger which I guess makes it an outlier since all other classes can duel with it...and POF shipped it it's complimentary dagger to make it whole.

 

So it's complimentary when you need an elite spec to make the dual daggers because core only shipped with one, but it's unfair when a new spec only gets one dagger without already having one from core? The end result is the same, you get one mainhand with an autoattack and two skills. You're just missing out the flavor of having two daggers, which is really just that, flavor.

 

A small tangent here, but my opinion is that mainhand dagger should have been a core ranger weapon. Not necessarily because only having off-hand core is a bit weird  (which is what I thought way back when I realized that was the case, but at the same time sword/dagger makes sense as a combo for the archtype anyway), but also because it could have solved the slightly awkward mainhand weapon situation ranger has. Soulbeast could have been given off-hand sword instead to offer that same dual wielding flavor.

 

There is no precedence or reason for mesmer to get two daggers. Spellbreaker got it because it is the "weapon master". I personally think that's a dumb reason, but it's a reason nonetheless.

[Lazze.9870]

On 7/27/2021 at 7:46 PM, Sodeni.6041 said:

This class will have no place in PvP and WvW.

 

No evade skills, no swiftness, no conditions, no mobility skills.

 

Rain of Swords and Swords of Decimation (pretty much better than any other immob applying skill with its 1200 range, easiest thing in the world to drop that inside a SpB bubble) are both very solid WvW zerg skills to add to the plethora of useful utility mesmer can run in a zerg. Thousand Cuts is some easy damage to lay down as well, doesn't look like it can be reflected.

 

And before you go "you need other utilities to survive". No, you don't. I don't know where this mentality comes from, but damage builds in organized zergs rely mostly on a single stun break and the FB and heal scrapper to carry your kitten otherwise. If you need more, your group isn't optimized or your movement is bad.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Xaylin.1860]

6 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Also I don't get why f3 is a daze, since you can no longer instantly follow up with f1. 

Will we only use it for the defensive aspect of it? Sounds boring. 

 

As for the f4 is also a poisoned gift, since it's a channeling you can no longer attack through it. 

You make it sound like F3 > F1 was the only use of F3 there is. Yes, it's the standard burst combo. But there are other uses. You could also replicate it with MoD (jeee... poor Mantras... R.I.P. with Glamours) or the new push follewed up by damage like F1. And: F3 > F1 still works. It's just slower and needs a different set up resourcewise.

 

F4 already attacks... less versatile but still something to note. I'm fine with base Mesmer and Mirage being better at attacking while defending. And it's not like Sh#4 has been useless in the past, right?

 

1 hour ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Probably dagger/torch + greatsword. The spec doesn't want to get into melee range. And needs stealth to reposition. 

 Actually, I really hope there will be a way to make it work with Sw/Sw and Dagger/x to utilize the push and F4 melee damage. But I'm a weirdo sometimes 🤓

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

7 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

So it's complimentary when you need an elite spec to make the dual daggers because core only shipped with one, but it's unfair when a new spec only gets one dagger without already having one from core? The end result is the same, you get one mainhand with an autoattack and two skills. You're just missing out the flavor of having two daggers, which is really just that, flavor.

I mean when you ship a greatsword, you are giving that class 5 new skills. When you ship just one, one handed weapon you are only shipping 3. It’s not “just flavor”

 

Now originally I though there there was a distinction between weapon wielding…there are Main hand weapons, Off hand weapons, Two handed weapons and then one handed weapons.

 

it seems that the distinction is inconsistent and changes from class to class…sword is a main hand weapon on Thief but it is a one hand weapon on revenant. Before POF, dagger was an offhand weapon for ranger and is now a one hand weapon with soul beast specialization. This is basically where I made the mistake and thinking there was some kind of consistency with their classification system…heh which there isn’t. 

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It’s not “just flavor”

 

I'm not comparing it to a two-handed, because that makes no sense. I'm comparing it to getting any other one-handed weapon. You don't get less skills than any other mainhand elite spec weapon would. The only arguments are that dual daggers "makes sense" aesthetically and all others professions can potentially go dual dagger (but that's only because ranger happened to have an off-hand already), so it should come with both. But the reality is that all mainhand weapons except scepter have off-hand equivalents on some professions. There is no difference between only getting a mainhand dagger on Virtuoso compared to Mirage only getting a mainhand axe. The argument for getting a second one is only flavor based. Of course, getting two would always be better, but there is no reason for why you should just because it is a dagger.

 

I totally get why people think daggers should always be able to be dual wielded, purely from that aesthetic reason. It's the kind of weapon that feels like it should be dual wielded. But Anet already broke that 9 years ago when the game launched with ranger only having one dagger. And yeah, soulbeast adds that second dagger, but if the rule was for all dagger wielders to be able to dual wield them, and that all new dagger elite specs would come with two, then you might as well argue that soulbeast should have been given a different off-hand to compensate for only getting half the "set" with core and another half with the elite spec. 

 

The distinction between weapons changes depending on what spec you are on. Dagger is refered to as off-handed on core ranger and druid, and one-handed on soulbeast. Scepter is the only "true" mainhand-only weapon.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Noodle Ant.1605]

1 hour ago, lifeshoutslive.4163 said:

I meant endgame PvE, haha - in terms of PvP/WvW, you're right, although I could see it combined with Sword in PvP, too. 

 

its probably triple swords (sw/sw + gs) or 'blades' (d/sw + gs), depending on the situation, or more honestly your preference

 

dagger autos currently hit like a wet noodle (less than half of sword), which is offset a bit by dagger #3, but its saving grace is that dagger #2 hits like a massive truck assuming all 6 possible hits connect (like melee range on a large, non-moving hitbox, hits twice as hard as sword #2). you also have to consider sacrificing swords in-built evade and boonstrip

 

gs is for blade generation and also to abuse that fancy interaction which procs f1 on phantasm despawn (youll be resetting berserker instead of swordsman with SoE). i dont believe youll be able to camp mh sword because:

• mh sword camp does not generate a lot of profession resource (i.e. clones/blades)
• virt 1/2 blade f1 is weaker than core/chrono 1/2 clone f1; virt 3 blade f1 is also still weaker than chrono 3 clone f1. core/chrono gets away with camping mh sword because self shatter dmg dramatically boosts low clone f1 dmg - virt does not have this
• unless ofc, there are other possibly op traits that change how everything works

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Noodle Ant.1605

[Xaylin.1860]

Actually, Sw/Sw has better Blade-generation than GS. Untraited that is. I'd rather have a melee option than going ranged only.

[Levetty.1279]

So there is a I like about this spec, including that it is a power damage focused spec with lots of aoe. But first some worries/misgivings. 

• First, yeah it looks a lot less mechanically interesting then Chrono or Mirage. Kind of comes with the territory of removing clones I guess and traits could do something but there doesn't seem to be any interesting interactions with blades and the skills are mostly straight forward do damage. Still there are advantages to a more straight forward class and this is the 3rd Elite Spec now so lots of choice opening up for classes.
• Considering this looks like a power DPS class it seems weird that we are still probably going to be stuck with Sword MH. Now I like the look of Dagger, turned out much better then I was expecting, auto attack is interesting but its damage seems way too low and some nice AoE skills that don't rely on phantasms is nice to finally have.  But Sword has been are only power melee for 10 years now and it looks like we will be sticking with it while dagger will be competing with GS which is my favourite weapon in the game. Maybe with traits/numbers we will end up with D/x + GS though, who knows but that would be great.
• Related to that and the topic of only getting a main hand again, none of our offhands really go well with a ranged aoe mainhand.
• The 'missing' stunbreak will probably get put on one of the utilities but condition removal seems pretty low, just one on a heal if the blade hits. Looks like Mantra will be stuck on my bar still. 
• Everything being a projectile means we can be shut down by one reflect.
• Worried if we will have enough blade generation to be reliably using 5 blade shatters since current clone generation is based around 3. Especially as lower blade shatters look like they do less damage then other Mesmer specs.

 

More positive impressions.

• As I said I like how the dagger turned out. Along with utilities we have some decent none phantasm based AoE. I'm liking it. Should be good in PvE, hopefully it ends up good in WvW too. Do we know if all 3 hits of Dagger auto have to be in a row or can we throw out another skill or hit another target and then hit the first target a 3rd time to trigger the aoe?
• While I think the phantasm rework removed most of the problems I had with illusions, except in WvW, a cloneless spec is interesting, has advantages, can be useful, like in WvW. and at the very least a nice change of pace. This is why I hope you don't gut Chorno damage as even if they are still similar they can provide different experiences and be useful in different areas.
• Glad it wasn't another support spec. We already have Chorno and currently have Staff Mirage, don't need a third.
• Feel like I'm the only person who likes the spell effects. Though auto attack is pretty bad and the elite isn't that great.

 

Can't wait to try it out in the beta.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Another big problem with cast time shatters is that you can't use F4 while stunned/dazed. Considering you also can't use the channeled distortion utility while stunned/dazed either it makes the profession super vulnerable.

[AXLIB.8425]

5 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

I'm not comparing it to a two-handed, because that makes no sense. I'm comparing it to getting any other one-handed weapon. You don't get less skills than any other mainhand elite spec weapon would. The only arguments are that dual daggers "makes sense" aesthetically and all others professions can potentially go dual dagger (but that's only because ranger happened to have an off-hand already), so it should come with both. But the reality is that all mainhand weapons except scepter have off-hand equivalents on some professions. There is no difference between only getting a mainhand dagger on Virtuoso compared to Mirage only getting a mainhand axe. The argument for getting a second one is only flavor based. Of course, getting two would always be better, but there is no reason for why you should just because it is a dagger.

 

I totally get why people think daggers should always be able to be dual wielded, purely from that aesthetic reason. It's the kind of weapon that feels like it should be dual wielded. But Anet already broke that 9 years ago when the game launched with ranger only having one dagger. And yeah, soulbeast adds that second dagger, but if the rule was for all dagger wielders to be able to dual wield them, and that all new dagger elite specs would come with two, then you might as well argue that soulbeast should have been given a different off-hand to compensate for only getting half the "set" with core and another half with the elite spec. 

 

The distinction between weapons changes depending on what spec you are on. Dagger is refered to as off-handed on core ranger and druid, and one-handed on soulbeast. Scepter is the only "true" mainhand-only weapon.

It is not just dual dagger is aesthetically pleasing, it is also that mesmer is the only class that don't have a expansion that gave us more then 3 new weapon skills, sure it might not have that much impact on the high end pve and competitive game modes, but it is just very uninspiring that once again we are only getting 3 new weapon skills to play with. It would better if the spec at least offer some different playstyles then the old clones and phantasm then press f1 playstyle. 

[Xaylin.1860]

4 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

• Related to that and the topic of only getting a main hand again, none of our offhands really go well with a ranged aoe mainhand.

 

Actually, we all our OH work from range. The bigger issue probably is most of them favoring condi/hybrid damage. However, I think Focus and Into Void could be quite interesting for ranged gameplay and Virtuoso.

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

It is not just dual dagger is aesthetically pleasing, it is also that mesmer is the only class that don't have a expansion that gave us more then 3 new weapon skills, sure it might not have that much impact on the high end pve and competitive game modes, but it is just very uninspiring that once again we are only getting 3 new weapon skills to play with. It would better if the spec at least offer some different playstyles then the old clones and phantasm then press f1 playstyle

 

I get that. But the argument that was presented was that daggers are dual wielded by every other class and a reason to get two (which was only half true to begin with), and that is what I replied to.

 

I don't consider not having been given a two-handed before a good argument for getting two weapons. Yes, it's the same amount of skills, but it opens up a ray of combinations with core weapons and is arguably even better than a two-handed. Potentially, anyways.

 

I mean, I get that it kinda sucks. I dread the idea of ranger getting shield instead of hammer, but that has less to do with the amount of skills and more to do with what roles it opens up. I don't imagine a second dagger for Virtuoso would change all that much. Maybe replace an off-hand to go with mh sword in pve. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[AXLIB.8425]

20 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

I get that. But the argument that was presented was that daggers are dual wielded by every other class and a reason to get two (which was only half true to begin with), and that is what I replied to.

 

I don't consider not having been given a two-handed before a good argument for getting two weapons. Yes, it's the same amount of skills, but it opens up a ray of combinations with core weapons and is arguably even better than a two-handed. Potentially, anyways.

 

I mean, I get that it kinda sucks. I dread the idea of ranger getting shield instead of hammer, but that has less to do with the amount of skills and more to do with what roles it opens up. I don't imagine a second dagger for Virtuoso would change all that much. Maybe replace an off-hand to go with mh sword in pve. 

the strength of virtuoso's dagger is that it is a 1200 range aoe power weapon, which is most useful in wvw, as range and aoe are both utilised, which comes with the problem of mesmer don't have a power aoe weapon to actually go with dagger, so in zerg play your offhand are mostly useless for a dps, offhand sword is useless in zerg because phantasm and single target, focus is sort of an "aoe" weapon with phantasm warden, but it is purely random and it throw axe at one target one at a time which result in rather low cleave damage, and it is only 600 range (1200 range to cast phantasm warden, but warden can only hit at 600, so often just die before it does anything). And if you want to pull, you can't even utilise the 1200 range because pull only have 900 range

 

Even if player ignore the low cleave on focus and take it for the pull, it still does have the problem of power mesmer player have been playing with focus for like 9 years, it is just dull at this point. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

7 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

 

its probably triple swords (sw/sw + gs) or 'blades' (d/sw + gs), depending on the situation, or more honestly your preference

 

dagger autos currently hit like a wet noodle (less than half of sword), which is offset a bit by dagger #3, but its saving grace is that dagger #2 hits like a massive truck assuming all 6 possible hits connect (like melee range on a large, non-moving hitbox, hits twice as hard as sword #2). you also have to consider sacrificing swords in-built evade and boonstrip

 

gs is for blade generation and also to abuse that fancy interaction which procs f1 on phantasm despawn (youll be resetting berserker instead of swordsman with SoE). i dont believe youll be able to camp mh sword because:

• mh sword camp does not generate a lot of profession resource (i.e. clones/blades)
• virt 1/2 blade f1 is weaker than core/chrono 1/2 clone f1; virt 3 blade f1 is also still weaker than chrono 3 clone f1. core/chrono gets away with camping mh sword because self shatter dmg dramatically boosts low clone f1 dmg - virt does not have this
• unless ofc, there are other possibly op traits that change how everything works

 

 

Domination/illusions/virtuoso?

 

It doesn't seem like sharper images works with blades. And fencer's finesse uptime is going to much lower without sword clones or sw/x +sw/x

[Lazze.9870]

42 minutes ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

the strength of virtuoso's dagger is that it is a 1200 range aoe power weapon, which is most useful in wvw, as range and aoe are both utilised, which comes with the problem of mesmer don't have a power aoe weapon to actually go with dagger, so in zerg play your offhand are mostly useless for a dps, offhand sword is useless in zerg because phantasm and single target, focus is sort of an "aoe" weapon with phantasm warden, but it is purely random and it throw axe at one target one at a time which result in rather low cleave damage, and it is only 600 range (1200 range to cast phantasm warden, but warden can only hit at 600, so often just die before it does anything). And if you want to pull, you can't even utilise the 1200 range because pull only have 900 range

 

I thought about mentioning off-hand dagger as a potential option for wvw zerging, but focus is still strong with its pull and I assume the second weapon would be GS. It's also not a given that an off-hand dagger would come with 1200 range aoe damage skills either.

 

And as far as a damage option for mesmer in zergs, virtuoso already looks like it has good potential for it even without a second dagger and even more aoe. So even if it could get more of it, that role is potentially still there without it. Rain of Swords, Swords of Decimation and Thousand Cuts already brings three utility skills with good damage and immob. The dagger despite the range and aoe is the weakest part of it, being projectile based (the same reason I don't think you would play mh dagger with two different off-hands, one being focus and the other being the non-existent off-hand dagger). An off-hand could have suffered from the same projectile problem. There is a reason LB soulbeast isn't effective in zergs (and the main reason I want a hammer instead of a shield on ranger, to continue my previous little tangent - the former has zerg potential, the latter likely not).

Edited July 30, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Domination/illusions/virtuoso?

 

It doesn't seem like sharper images works with blades. And fencer's finesse uptime is going to much lower without sword clones or sw/x +sw/x

 

like someone else said, its likely going to be similar to pchrono... or power core mesmer... or power mirage (or just power mesmer in general). this means:

• domination/dueling/x, where x is virtuoso now
• you still take fencers finesse because its better than nothing and you still get stacks at certain points of time (because sw/sw)
• you still take dueling because superiority complex completely beats the entire illusions line dps-wise, unless youre building for double f1 burst shenanigans via shatterstorm
• irreplaceable sw/sw kit paired with another not-mh-sword weapon swap for more clone generation, i suggested gs but you could put dagger here if you wanted, or even scepter
• SoE and disenchanter will stay on your utility bar

 

whats new:

• virt line... ofc
• rain of swords and thousand cuts will now be on your bar
• dagger skills, related rotation, positioning, etc. if you use decide to use them
• opening rotation... outside of the opener, the dps rotation is essentially the same, now with cast times on your shatters
• not much else? unless unrevealed traits say otherwise

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Domination/illusions/virtuoso?

 

It doesn't seem like sharper images works with blades. And fencer's finesse uptime is going to much lower without sword clones or sw/x +sw/x

Neither Illusions or Dueling seem that great for a swordless dps build. Comes down to Superiority Complex vs Compounding Power if blades trigger it plus reduced cooldown on shatters.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

17 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

You make it sound like F3 > F1 was the only use of F3 there is. Yes, it's the standard burst combo. But there are other uses. You could also replicate it with MoD (jeee... poor Mantras... R.I.P. with Glamours) or the new push follewed up by damage like F1. And: F3 > F1 still works. It's just slower and needs a different set up resourcewise.

 

F4 already attacks... less versatile but still something to note. I'm fine with base Mesmer and Mirage being better at attacking while defending. And it's not like Sh#4 has been useless in the past, right?

 

 Actually, I really hope there will be a way to make it work with Sw/Sw and Dagger/x to utilize the push and F4 melee damage. But I'm a weirdo sometimes 🤓

 

It is not the only use but it is both the most common use and best use. MoD is a wasted slot when you've f3 but it might be actually good with the new shatters.
F3 to f1 will only work on afkers, with 3/4 cast on f1 people have enough time to react.

Not saying the new f4 is useless, it is a downgrade and a nerf from core.