Our New Mesmer Elite Specialization: The Virtuoso

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, glenndevis.8327 said:

Yeah I really doubt they'd not show the offhand skills if there was an offhand dagger for Mesmers.

 

And I guess I just hoped for more new things. I think all classes bar Ele (then again Ele gets many more skills.) got a 2handed weapon or a full set of new weapon skills in one of their elite specs so far.

 

Just a shame they didn't do dual daggers. Doesn't make it better that the bladesongs seem quite similar to the already existing shatters effect wise.

I mean totally...but I'm gonna still hold out hope and see if they'll give us the offhand dagger. Again looking at the past like Spellbreaker, they do give double weapons to the classes...there is a chance they just didn't present them...god knows why? or it could be just a single dagger and that would be as you said, a shame. We just have to wait and see. 

[Zoser.7245]

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

yep thanks for that short version. finally someone else who does understand.

 

but well played devs. at least you now cutted the basic mes mechanic already before release (deleting instant shatters but keeping up the setup need, so double delay/cast on shatters literally)  then compensate with high dmg numberes (maybe also some op traits, we will see) you then can (when enough money was earned) easy number tweak nerf in most parts, since the mechanic cut happend already. no need to co-work with pve skill team bc of mes for another few years. 

 

at least this time we know what we will get before we buy it, not like mirage gets its mechanic contradicted with a low effort one dodge nerf 2 years after release. fair i guess, also still well hidden so barely anyone gets the hoax. while all biased mesmer haters are happy (that should ring your alarm bells actually).

 

also instead of rly finding new mechanics that fits to the mesmer class and create a new mesmer spec with new mesmery mechanics all "creativity" is lit to mix classes up and turn mesmer into an engi/ warrior hybrid instead getting unique mesmer themed mechanics. so in the end its an xpac wihtout a real mesmer elite but with a new or better old profession with some recycled basic mechanics of other classes with new names, colour and some flashy animations (they are not bad tho but...also hello visual clutter) prob the gems store skin team did as a side work.

 

also cant wait for the miss miss miss projectile gameplay we enjoy on staff and scepter already. and the slowed down chain cast gameplay. at least we are free from the usual mesmer hate of newbies and such ppl. stuff that all mesmer haters complained about got removed. f4 now is a block (happy daredevil and necro rupts), distortion is a channel and locks out other skill uses, no clones to get confused by. also mesmer dont need to care for good clone positioning anymore, the high skilled fast paced setup and shatter-weapon-combo gameplay got removed. mesmer is now grandma friendly in its new gameplay speed yay. even a first day gw2 player now will understand what happens around him when facing a mes first time without the need to get some knowledge about the class. and it can be played with skill clicking since you have muchas time inbetween all the cast skill chaining.

prob a good decision for a casual game with players not willing to do the effort to understand a class that is less mainstream and has bit more complicated and different mechanics which are easy to counterplay the moment you know how, after a little time/effort investment.

 

spec is maybe bit better for wvw zergfights but even in bigger gvgs playing backline mes with clones is no problem and in pvp also in teamfights there was no issue to keep clones alive long enough when you know how to position them and when to create them. ofc the powercreeped aoe spam made it harder for the mes (but hey, we play mesmer for the skill challenge or not?) while making it easier for the enemy to counterplay it with just random aoe spam but that is an gamewide balance issue and instead of deleting clones and turn the spec into another profession and have a casual friendly no mesmer spec xpac, just finally balance the game well and reduce braindead nonreactive aoe spam would be the better way. instead we add even more aoe spam now also on the new profession "pink wrengi"

 

maybe the spec will be fun to play tho, most likely easier to play and easier to play against and way slower (hello casual game again) but i doubt i will ever call it a mesmer. and if no other class gets mesmers basic mechanics as elite then it will be the day where the mes class is not part of an expansion... when you thought it cant get worse for mesmer after no ip chrono and one dodge mirage... 

 

enjoy fishing guys o/

 

 

Add zero support, zero breaks stun, zero sustain, etc.   If dps is the single thing you bring on the table...  A single balance patch will kill you. You can't not even take advantage of certain runes for improve. So three eligible traits can't not bring all that on the table.   Professions with sustain in its core traits plus specialization combined with runes, etc.  Are miles above the Virtuoso for high end fractals, solo content and competitive modes.  Where are the barriers, healing, life steal, break stuns, etc?  You can dream all you want, but three traits and three minors are no going to add all that on the table.

 

So they did a good "JOB".  Add a pure selfish dps specialization for PvE events.  That adds nothing to a team play.  Also no clones to distract even mobs or bosses... No defense or sustain, easy killable.  Perfect!!!!!    You  are something for casual PvE mesmer maybe lacked to farm, but no to bot farm without clones lol. SO no complains from competitive modes, no complain for bots, and easily  killed with a single balance patch that tune down its dps that is the single thing it does. LOL

 

• WvW:  Only while zergs don't fight close, then you'll be the target one to kill and erase your dps with no defense or sustain. Free kill for roamers and snipers too.
• PvP: forget it.
• T3-T4 fractals:  forget it, you bring nothing to the team, no support, no quickness, no might share nothing. Only selfish dps.
• PvE solo and hardcore content:  NO!!!  Without clones and sustain NO!!! You'll be focused and killed ASAP even against average bosses or a number of mobs mix.
• PvE casual farming with good AoE:  that is its natural environment and what it brings on the table  for mesmers. A better cleave and AoE dps. That is... but only selfish and without share boons or other things to make your team play better unless some trait add some might maybe... or maybe not and only % damage modifiers... It is what it is.

 

So it's time to accept what it is. A dps selfish specialization that will be easily replaceable by any other that do similar damage adding more support, boon share,  damage share, etc, on the table.  Have portals  will not give you the spot.  That thing is today available for almost everyone in some way or other.

 

Is it cool? Well, the theme and animations yes... But if dps is its single purpose, it would have been cooler with double dagger weapons.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[AXLIB.8425]

A reminder to all those who want to have their opinion heard by anet that you should put you thoughts in this thread pined by anet themselves.

 

[Curunen.8729]

Finally watched the video! 😮

 

I love the attack animations, nice colours, flowing etc.

 

Not that keen on the mario kart style floating blades. Reminds me a bit of Baruuk in Warframe, especially if their orientation remains static while dodging and moving about - seems a little inelegant especially for the theme of the spec.

 

Omg the cooldown on F4 is only 30s? And lol at the Crystal Maze style dome visual. xD Looks great!

 

Psychic Force - YES, I really wanted some kind of telekinetic force push style ability. Sure it's kind of an outlier compared with the rest of the spec but at least it's something!

 

Guaranteed we will have at least one busted trait that will make Virtuoso overpowered on launch, looking back at Chrono (chronophantasma, Illusionary Reversion on launch, alacrity etc) and Mirage (original elusive mind, among other things). I'm not worried about the survivability, there will certainly be some silly traits to cover this, at least until they get nerfed into oblivion.

 

The rest of the visual effects look amazing, and from what I can hear (difficult with the narration) the audio effects also!

 

I will probably still main Mirage, but will likely put at least one equipment/build template slot to enjoy Virtuoso.

[Allarius.5670]

Genuine question. Now that we will have core +3 elite specs, should we expect new elite specs to have vast appeal? Is it "wrong" or "bad" for players to just stick with a preferred previous spec? I understand that if the elite spec is not someone's cup of tea they may feel disappointed or deflated, but shouldn't we just expect and accept that?

[Curunen.8729]

4 minutes ago, Allarius.5670 said:

Genuine question. Now that we will have core +3 elite specs, should we expect new elite specs to have vast appeal? Is it "wrong" or "bad" for players to just stick with a preferred previous spec? I understand that if the elite spec is not someone's cup of tea they may feel disappointed or deflated, but shouldn't we just expect and accept that?

I think you just play what you enjoy. Still reckon there's a number of people who main Chrono even when Mirage came out, or whatever else on other professions.

 

For sure the more especs there are, the less they have to appeal to everyone (aside from initial release maybe for the sake of expansion sales).

[Heika.5403]

3 hours ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Add zero support, zero breaks stun, zero sustain, etc.   If dps is the single thing you bring on the table...  A single balance patch will kill you. You can't not even take advantage of certain runes for improve. So three eligible traits can't not bring all that on the table.   Professions with sustain in its core traits plus specialization combined with runes, etc.  Are miles above the Virtuoso for high end fractals, solo content and competitive modes.  Where are the barriers, healing, life steal, break stuns, etc?  You can dream all you want, but three traits and three minors are no going to add all that on the table.

 

So they did a good "JOB".  Add a pure selfish dps specialization for PvE events.  That adds nothing to a team play.  Also no clones to distract even mobs or bosses... No defense or sustain, easy killable.  Perfect!!!!!    You  are something for casual PvE mesmer maybe lacked to farm, but no to bot farm without clones lol. SO no complains from competitive modes, no complain for bots, and easily  killed with a single balance patch that tune down its dps that is the single thing it does. LOL

 

• WvW:  Only while zergs don't fight close, then you'll be the target one to kill and erase your dps with no defense or sustain. Free kill for roamers and snipers too.
• PvP: forget it.
• T3-T4 fractals:  forget it, you bring nothing to the team, no support, no quickness, no might share nothing. Only selfish dps.
• PvE solo and hardcore content:  NO!!!  Without clones and sustain NO!!! You'll be focused and killed ASAP even against average bosses or a number of mobs mix.
• PvE casual farming with good AoE:  that is its natural environment and what it brings on the table  for mesmers. A better cleave and AoE dps. That is... but only selfish and without share boons or other things to make your team play better unless some trait add some might maybe... or maybe not and only % damage modifiers... It is what it is.

 

So it's time to accept what it is. A dps selfish specialization that will be easily replaceable by any other that do similar damage adding more support, boon share,  damage share, etc, on the table.  Have portals  will not give you the spot.  That thing is today available for almost everyone in some way or other.

 

Is it cool? Well, the theme and animations yes... But if dps is its single purpose, it would have been cooler with double dagger weapons.

You are right. If skills don't bring nothing interesting on the table... aside the dps thing. Traits will no change that at all, the design and purpose is clear.  There is a tier in traits too...  so only maybe some Grand Master trait could add something more....  and also something easily nerfed after a while  and the expansions sales...  

 

Sometimes we forget that selfish dps means nothing...  If you do 80k dps people will complain and you'll be nerfed...  But if you do 40k it's ok while you are sharing enough might and dps modifiers to your team that in fact in a indirect way you are near those 60k?  And take into de account the buff to allies plus the mitigation in damage in the balance equation...

 

Bring only dps on the table is not good.  You will be nerfed due to the complains and after that add nothing for the team play also nothing to your own survive as you was not designed to it.

 

Cool animations, nice to have another ranged weapon.. but, at the end... only useful in a niche game mode. No happy with that.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Heika.5403

[Doggie.3184]

I wonder if the floating swords will turn into legendary daggers.

 

I also hope they will make better auto attack animation instead of it being copy-paste.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Doggie.3184

[Tseison.4659]

2 hours ago, Allarius.5670 said:

Genuine question. Now that we will have core +3 elite specs, should we expect new elite specs to have vast appeal? Is it "wrong" or "bad" for players to just stick with a preferred previous spec? I understand that if the elite spec is not someone's cup of tea they may feel disappointed or deflated, but shouldn't we just expect and accept that?

So I believe after this expansion, they might just focus on patches and will probably expand on the core professions and elite specs, in regards to adding more utilities and perhaps another weapon but I'd prefer more utilities for variety.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

• Skipping to the end here, so sorry if someone brought this up already: I'm pretty sure the reason why Anet nerfed Chronomancer's PVE damage is because otherwise the Virtuoso wouldn't have a role.  

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

50 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

• Skipping to the end here, so sorry if someone brought this up already: I'm pretty sure the reason why Anet nerfed Chronomancer's PVE damage is because otherwise the Virtuoso wouldn't have a role.  

 

I mean that's understandable and all, but they forgot to buff the support skills of chronomancer back.

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, Allarius.5670 said:

Genuine question. Now that we will have core +3 elite specs, should we expect new elite specs to have vast appeal? Is it "wrong" or "bad" for players to just stick with a preferred previous spec? I understand that if the elite spec is not someone's cup of tea they may feel disappointed or deflated, but shouldn't we just expect and accept that?

I think that for a good while following the release of the expansion, the elite specializations will be over-tuned on purpose, to coax more people into buying the expansion to play them.

[HowlKamui.5120]

For me, it's just too bland. Everything is a bright purple dagger that deals damage. I've been a mesmer main but maybe I'll try maining other specs now.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Allarius.5670 said:

Genuine question. Now that we will have core +3 elite specs, should we expect new elite specs to have vast appeal? Is it "wrong" or "bad" for players to just stick with a preferred previous spec? I understand that if the elite spec is not someone's cup of tea they may feel disappointed or deflated, but shouldn't we just expect and accept that?

Pretty much, yeah. We're three elite specialisations in - I think that's well past the point where every elite specialisation should try to appeal to everyone who plays that profession. 

 

Some people might well look at one or more of the new elite specialisations and respond with "eh, I'll just keep playing what I have been playing up to now" - and that's okay. As long as nothing gets nerfed so hard that you feel like you're handicapping yourself just by playing it.

 

I think there is some valid concern that Virtuoso doesn't seem to have as many defensive options as Chronomancer and Mirage have... but core mesmer still has enough to fill a bar with defensive utilities if you want to. Maybe the distortion-replacement utility should be a stunbreak, but apart from that, it should be fine as long as you're not exclusively using specialisation skills.

Edited July 29, 2021 by draxynnic.3719
Minor grammatical fix.

[Xaylin.1860]

48 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think there is some valid concern that Virtuoso doesn't seem to as many defensive options as Chronomancer and Mirage have... but core mesmer still has enough to fill a bar with defensive utilities if you want to. Maybe the distortion-replacement utility should be a stunbreak, but apart from that, it should be fine as long as you're not exclusively using specialisation skills.

I just feel the concerns about cast times of the shatters and survivability are blown way out of proportion.

 

Songs gain "real" range without clone traveltime and serve a somewhat different purpose and F4 seems fine with the shorter cooldown.

 

While I'd like a stunbreak somewhere, as you said, we already got plenty in base Mesmer. It is just redundant and will bring us rather underwhelming skills like Sand through Glass. I also definitely don't want it on the channel skill with Distortion and 5 Blades. We could just use Mirror Images if we wanted a stunbreak with some Blades ontop.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Nephalem.8921]

13 hours ago, Zoser.7245 said:

T3-T4 fractals:  forget it, you bring nothing to the team, no support, no quickness, no might share nothing. Only selfish dps.

• PvE solo and hardcore content:  NO!!!  Without clones and sustain NO!!! You'll be focused and killed ASAP even against average bosses or a number of mobs mix.
• PvE casual farming with good AoE:  that is its natural environment and what it brings on the table  for mesmers. A better cleave and AoE dps. That is... but only selfish and without share boons or other things to make your team play better unless some trait add some might maybe... or maybe not and only % damage modifiers... It is what it is.

 

What mesmer currently lacks in fractals is burst. Thats why its trash tier. This spec brings burst and precastable burst which will make it decent enough.

Sorry but if you rely on clones to solo harder stuff you are playing chrono wrong. Most bosses ignore clones anyways and if they dont they oneshot them which lowers your dps.

Also you dont need 5 classes in fractals to provide might, alac and quickness. A cfb and ren are enough for alac quickness and ~15might and fury. That leaves you with 3 slots to fill 10 might. Virtuoso fills the selfish dps role just like holo or dh. You know weaver was meta for fractals for a long time. Currently the balance is broken because they allowed scourge to do more than 30k dps which should have never happened. Together with the exposed condi buff which was also a mistake which made condi > power for all but the absolute top groups.

On mesmer you have a lot of evades, blocks and not sure if you watched the trailer but virtuoso comes with a 3sec invuln on a 60sec cd and your f4 is changed into a block which allows it to cap points in spvp.

Just to be clear, you are not supposed to facetank stuff normally. Only some classes allow this like all of necro and scrapper or deva ren. 

 

[Jokubas.4265]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much, yeah. We're three elite specialisations in - I think that's well past the point where every elite specialisation should try to appeal to everyone who plays that profession.

If anything, at this point, new elite specializations shouldn't appeal to existing players of the profession, as unintuitive as that might sound (incidentally, it's something I realized makes them less exciting as a selling point to me than they should be).

 

Elite Specializations introduce new playstyles, but you're probably not happy with a profession that you're playing right now unless it already has your playstyle. So it's more important if a different profession that you didn't like the playstyle of suddenly gets a playstyle you do like, and any new playstyle of your existing profession is likely to not be a match for you.

 

I realized that I'm more likely to create new alts from this than change my existing ones, because I'm happy where most of them are. It's more of a coincidence than anything than I'm intrigued by Virtuoso, but that's due to Mesmer in particular having a very strange history.

[GutterRat.1269]

I can't wait to buy this pve powerpack so I can finally have a power build with two dodges like every other class.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 minutes ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

If anything, at this point, new elite specializations shouldn't appeal to existing players of the profession, as unintuitive as that might sound (incidentally, it's something I realized makes them less exciting as a selling point to me than they should be).

 

Elite Specializations introduce new playstyles, but you're probably not happy with a profession that you're playing right now unless it already has your playstyle. So it's more important if a different profession that you didn't like the playstyle of suddenly gets a playstyle you do like, and any new playstyle of your existing profession is likely to not be a match for you.

 

I realized that I'm more likely to create new alts from this than change my existing ones, because I'm happy where most of them are. It's more of a coincidence than anything than I'm intrigued by Virtuoso, but that's due to Mesmer in particular having a very strange history.

Yes and no. I think there is a degree to which elite specialisations are building off what's already there rather than reinventing the wheel every time. It's not going to be something completely different.

 

But that could still involve removing or downplaying an aspect that an existing fan of that profession really likes, while enhancing some other aspect that means that other fans of the profession - and people who aren't already fans of the profession - will enjoy the elite specialisation.

 

Bottom line, though, is that at this point I don't think the "this elite specialisation doesn't fit the way I see the profession working" argument doesn't really hold much weight. It's a specialisation. It's not supposed to represent the profession as a whole, but a specialisation of it. If you prefer one of the existing specialisations, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

It's something I've seen often in discussions regarding possible thief specialisations: "Feature X doesn't fit my idea of what a thief is!" Well, if you're happily playing daredevil, deadeye, or core thief, does it matter if some other specialisation has some aspect that doesn't fit your idea? No, just play one of the specialisations that DOES.

 

Similar principle here.

 

Personally, I've always liked mesmer, although how much varies depending on the balance and design state at the time. But that doesn't mean I'm not intrigued at the idea of a mesmer that uses something else other than clones.

[Solomons.9713]

Does anybody know if bladesongs gets interrupted it goes on full cooldown or not? It probably will... so i guess we need bountiful disillusionment trait for virtuoso since it has a cast time now...(i assume it works with shatter traits) unless the new traitline gives some other boons. 

 

P.S.: ANET, can mesmers get easy access to swiftness already (like every other class) for some rune diversity, sticking to 1 or 2 runes for years now is getting very boring in wvw/spvp.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Solomons.9713

[Tseison.4659]

9 minutes ago, Solomons.9713 said:

Does anybody know if bladesongs gets interrupted it goes on full cooldown or not? It probably will... so i guess we need bountiful disillusionment trait for virtuoso...(i assume it works with shatter traits) unless the new traitline gives some other boons. 

 

P.S.: ANET, can mesmers get easy access to swiftness already (like every other class) for some rune diversity, sticking to 1 or 2 runes for years now is getting very boring in wvw/spvp.

We’ll have to wait and see upon beta testing but anything that’s channeled and gets interrupted via CC, will be put on cooldown majority of the time. Skills that are interrupted have a 5 second cooldown before they can be cast again. Unless you cancel the channel/animation mid way if you predict fast enough that you’re opponent is going to interrupt you and that won’t put your skill on cooldown. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Solomons.9713]

2 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

We’ll have to wait and see upon beta testing but anything that’s channeled and gets interrupted via CC, will be put on cooldown majority of the time. Unless you cancel the channel mid way if you predict fast enough that you’re opponent is going to interrupt you.

Hmm, as far as i know if a skill gets full cooldown from interrupt, it also gets full cooldown from stowing the skill

[Xaylin.1860]

7 hours ago, Solomons.9713 said:

Does anybody know if bladesongs gets interrupted it goes on full cooldown or not? It probably will... so i guess we need bountiful disillusionment trait for virtuoso since it has a cast time now...(i assume it works with shatter traits) unless the new traitline gives some other boons. 

No, you don't. If you did, it would mean that nowadays you can't cast Mirror Blade or pBerserker without a cover (Distortion, Aegies, Mirage Cloak, Stability). That's just not true.

 

Will it be different than playing instant Shatters? Yes! Will it be more difficult or less efficient in larger scale fights? Debatable, because baseline Shatters need Clones that die (or never appear because the targert of your Phantasm dies). It is different. Not worse. And that's exactly the point. What about small scale fights? Debatable! Because, saying it as someone who loved playing Interrupt Mesmer, actively interrupting a skill with less than 1s cast time needs a fast CC (preferably instant without traveltime, which is not the case for most) plus good prediction and enemy knowledge on the player side. Meaning, yes, you could be interrupted. But most interrupts actually happen by coincidence. Meaning, if you're experienced enough, you can avoid most by good positioning and executing your skills at the right time. And even if you're CC'd, you wouldn't have wasted your F's.

 

At least that's my opinion and why I feel the salt about the cast time being blown out proportion. Same for poor Warriors singing the song of too telegraphed and easily interrupted skills, by the way. 😅

Edited July 29, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[AXLIB.8425]

11 hours ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

If anything, at this point, new elite specializations shouldn't appeal to existing players of the profession, as unintuitive as that might sound (incidentally, it's something I realized makes them less exciting as a selling point to me than they should be).

 

Elite Specializations introduce new playstyles, but you're probably not happy with a profession that you're playing right now unless it already has your playstyle. So it's more important if a different profession that you didn't like the playstyle of suddenly gets a playstyle you do like, and any new playstyle of your existing profession is likely to not be a match for you.

 

I realized that I'm more likely to create new alts from this than change my existing ones, because I'm happy where most of them are. It's more of a coincidence than anything than I'm intrigued by Virtuoso, but that's due to Mesmer in particular having a very strange history.

But this elite doesn't even introduce new playstyle, this is just the same power mesmer playstyle we had just without clones, and if you are playing power mesmer, clones are just ammo to be fed into your f1 anyway. It might have better burst then chrono due to you can pre-stack your ammo but it is still the same found something to get ammo, use ammo for shatter, and summon phantasm while you're at it. It would be at least ok if the shatter is at least different, but no it is still the f1 damage, f2 confusion, f3 cc, f4 damage migration. Do I sounds unhappy with mesmer, yes, with the exact reason you listed, it doesn't have the playstyle I like, a healing support, and we are just stuck with power spec (yes, i am well aware that chrono is supposed to be our support, but lets face it, it is just a power spec these days, and to those people disagree with chrono should be allowed to heal because it is a boon support, then why does every single healing build give better boon then chrono?), a condi spec, and now another better power spec.

Edited July 29, 2021 by AXLIB.8425

[Zoser.7245]

Watching the video again, they didn't show the tooltip of the Psychic Force utility or whatever is called. As the specialization must have a breakstun i'm pretty sure that is in that utility skill with 45s cooldown. Pretty high for my taste but as it does CC and damage so is undestandable.  Although that doesn't change the fact that if that is your single stunbreak and you don't have mobility... its cooldown is too high.

 

I still watch it as a PvE farmer more than anything else. Anyways soon we will have the first beta event to test what they allow there:

 

• Beta Event 1: August 17—August 21
• Beta Event 2: September 21—September 25
• Beta Event 3: October 26—October 30
• Beta Event 4: November 30—December 4

 

I imagine that the Virtuoso will probably be one the 3 specializations available in the first event.  I have readed that each of the first three events will allow to play 3 different specializations and the final one, all them.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Zoser.7245