projectiles as a class mechanic

[Alpha.1308]

we got rid of CC liabilities of NPCs

for

projectiles

to get reflected and whiff their target

gee

gee

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[mortrialus.3062]

The speed of the projectiles is going to be way more reliable for hitting targets without needing to shotgun them point blank in someone's face. 

[Alpha.1308]

6 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

The speed of the projectiles

i mean, good

but it still doesn't fix projectile hate in the game from completely accidental and random abilities popping them

this class has already gotten 2 e-specs basically designed for small scale spvp and pve 

 

wvw has been a massive liability for this class having NPCs for 10 years

and they sat there, looked at us directly, and told us "wvw is a core pillar" 

does.not.look.like.it.

i didn't even think they cared, so i thought it was just the afterthought

but to look at us and say that?

 

just sounds really, really, absolutely hysterically tone deaf

and it's p upsetting 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Arheundel.6451]

Haha the irony, it will be fun to watch 2 virtuoso fighting each other while having reflect on dodge. Welcome to generic world where you pay attention to spammed reflects and no AoE bomb around.

This virtuouso seems more skill intensive than condi staff camper mirage

[Alpha.1308]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

This virtuouso seems more skill intensive than condi staff camper mirage

super easily alleviated by just simply fixing mirage

it still doesn't mean we needed a fourth duelist spec 

 

which, we still don't have all the information, still going to have to wait and see, it could be fine when maximizing the non-projectile abilities, i'm not gonna lie

 

but the mass spam of projectiles on everything is extremely disgusting, when actual players, not mindless zerglings, already have enough projectile hate uptime to make anything using them absolutely worthless to a group

 

you might get a few pings off from time to time, but it's never going to matter when you need the damage immediately, and that's when there will be bubbles, soooo? there's no "paying attention" to reflects when your enemy isn't an absolute braindead zombie

 

i mean, this whole premise is under the assumption that they were tone-deaf enough to say "wvw is a core pillar" 

yet alliances has been a meme for years 

and they only just recently added a very sloppy way you can even get gvgs rolling, and it's still trashy 

 

if you're going for mindless zerg fighting, or even MORE dueling, i guess this looks fine

but that's not the problem

you'd be fine with chrono wells or mirage GS ambush at that point for the zerging, and core/chrono/mirage for dueling 

 

but again, not the issue

 

we needed options to open up

not more of the same 

what we got, was (seemingly) more of the same 

again, we'll still need to process information as we get it, but at face-value, this is disheartening 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[zealex.9410]

Member when mirage not being able to dodge backwards was the worst thing ever? Me neither lets see what allow us to play in a couple weeks.

[XenesisII.1540]

Eh, I think it's going to be hard to compete with chrono spot in zergs anyways. Being able to do more damage isn't going to cut it. Gravity well and csplit are too useful to have, while the virt will have a piercing line aoe, pfft. It'll end up being a roamer/small group spec.

 

I actually think they should switch gravity well with time warp for core/chrono elites, that way any mesmer will have access to gravity well at least for zergs, but I don't think anyone else would agree with that.

[Alpha.1308]

29 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Member when

no?

is that what you thought?

i remember thinking "holy butts i can DODGE while being CC locked????"

am i misunderstanding this comment? doom and gloom before something is out isn't worth discussing?

 

 

sometimes, the very obvious pvp mechanics screaming right at your face are acceptable concerns 

 

especially with this games.... history...

 

i'm not saying the spec is definitely terrible because a lot is gated behind projectiles, i'm saying that it's worth noting that so much of it is, with the previously stated history behind the game, the meta, and the class itself 

 

18 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I think it's going to be hard to compete with chrono spot in zergs anyways.

 

 

chrono only offers double utility and grav well, and you could very much so swap that out for extra spike potential, and who knows how much of a better entire traitline (hopefully?????)

 

misntrel chronos wasting half their stats on poor coefficients is fine when you're blobbing, but every bit of efficiency counts when you start lowering the player count

 

deciding to take a group of 20 or under, and throw someone on a chrono that's only really useful for one or two abilities on a 60/105s cooldown compared to literally anything else like a reaper, isn't going to be the best, the only, or the most interesting solution if you want your game to not be absolutely stale af and actually want build/gameplay diversity, and along with what we should have had when the game came out... actual, meaningful guild vs guilds in the game literally called Guild Wars , which would imply less "zergfest mash your face on your keyboard" 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[zealex.9410]

17 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

no?

is that what you thought?

i remember thinking "holy butts i can DODGE while being CC locked????"

am i misunderstanding this comment? doom and gloom before something is out isn't worth discussing?

 

 

sometimes, the very obvious pvp mechanics screaming right at your face are acceptable concerns 

 

especially with this games.... history...

 

i'm not saying the spec is definitely terrible because a lot is gated behind projectiles, i'm saying that it's worth noting that so much of it is, with the previously stated history behind the game, the meta, and the class itself 

 

 

 

chrono only offers double utility and grav well, and you could very much so swap that out for extra spike potential, and who knows how much of a better entire traitline (hopefully?????)

 

misntrel chronos wasting half their stats on poor coefficients is fine when you're blobbing, but every bit of efficiency counts when you start lowering the player count

 

deciding to take a group of 20 or under, and throw someone on a chrono that's only really useful for one or two abilities on a 60/105s cooldown compared to literally anything else like a reaper, isn't going to be the best, the only, or the most interesting solution if you want your game to not be absolutely stale af and actually want build/gameplay diversity, and along with what we should have had when the game came out... actual, meaningful guild vs guilds in the game literally called Guild Wars , which would imply less "zergfest mash your face on your keyboard" 

 

I remember that (that was my reaction to mirage and also "holy kitten i can dodge while bursting) but i also remember so many ppl viewing the new dodge as a negative because it didnt have the movement.

 

Not saying the projectile based  weapon skills and f abilities cant be problematic but we will get a better idea in a couple of weeks prob.

[Alpha.1308]

3 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

we will get a better idea in a couple of weeks prob.

that's what i'm hoping for 

honestly, some of the skill seem really strong, especially if they aren't too ridiculously nerfed in pvp/wvw

but is it going to be worth it, is the real question 

because, as above, is double grav well just going to be better than a few abilities that can only sometimes get damage off??? if the whole point is damage?

 

if not, you're better off just using Mirage GS Ambush spam for damage, and that still has huge problems stemming from core mesmer 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[zealex.9410]

2 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

that's what i'm hoping for 

honestly, some of the skill seem really strong, especially if they aren't too ridiculously nerfed in pvp/wvw

but is it going to be worth it, is the real question 

because, as above, is double grav well just going to be better than a few abilities that can only sometimes get damage off??? if the whole point is damage?

 

if not, you're better off just using Mirage GS Ambush spam for damage, and that still has huge problems stemming from core mesmer 

 

Well it had some cc from utils and such but ye.

[XenesisII.1540]

28 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

chrono only offers double utility and grav well, and you could very much so swap that out for extra spike potential, and who knows how much of a better entire traitline (hopefully?????)

 

misntrel chronos wasting half their stats on poor coefficients is fine when you're blobbing, but every bit of efficiency counts when you start lowering the player count

 

deciding to take a group of 20 or under, and throw someone on a chrono that's only really useful for one or two abilities on a 60/105s cooldown compared to literally anything else like a reaper, isn't going to be the best, the only, or the most interesting solution if you want your game to not be absolutely stale af and actually want build/gameplay diversity, and along with what we should have had when the game came out... actual, meaningful guild vs guilds in the game literally called Guild Wars , which would imply less "zergfest mash your face on your keyboard" 

 

 

/shrug there's a ton of dps specs already to use and I'm sure a couple more with the new specs to come, unless some other new elite mass cc spec comes out to take it's place, we're stuck with using a couple chronos in zergs, as pull bombs are still effective. There's no reason to replace chrono with virt, just like there was no reason to replace chrono with mirage in zergs.

 

Traits could make a difference still, especially if they somehow make the projectiles unblockable, but seeing as they don't even want to do this for warriors or rangers with their ranged projectiles, doubt they would for mesmer.

 

Believe me, I don't want to be stuck with chrono in zergs forever, I actually hate don't care for chrono and love mirage, I wish other mesmer utilities were more useful, but it is what it is.

 

We'll just have to wait and see on traits and other specs.

Edited July 27, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[Ghos.1326]

2 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

super easily alleviated by just simply fixing mirage

it still doesn't mean we needed a fourth duelist spec 

 

which, we still don't have all the information, still going to have to wait and see, it could be fine when maximizing the non-projectile abilities, i'm not gonna lie

 

but the mass spam of projectiles on everything is extremely disgusting, when actual players, not mindless zerglings, already have enough projectile hate uptime to make anything using them absolutely worthless to a group

 

you might get a few pings off from time to time, but it's never going to matter when you need the damage immediately, and that's when there will be bubbles, soooo? there's no "paying attention" to reflects when your enemy isn't an absolute braindead zombie

 

i mean, this whole premise is under the assumption that they were tone-deaf enough to say "wvw is a core pillar" 

yet alliances has been a meme for years 

and they only just recently added a very sloppy way you can even get gvgs rolling, and it's still trashy 

 

if you're going for mindless zerg fighting, or even MORE dueling, i guess this looks fine

but that's not the problem

you'd be fine with chrono wells or mirage GS ambush at that point for the zerging, and core/chrono/mirage for dueling 

 

but again, not the issue

 

we needed options to open up

not more of the same 

what we got, was (seemingly) more of the same 

again, we'll still need to process information as we get it, but at face-value, this is disheartening 

 

 

I think Virtuoso is looking like it's fitting more into the role of consistent dps as opposed to a duelist.

[Alpha.1308]

26 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

there's a ton of dps specs already to use

none of which have portal, or curtain, or null field (minus necro, which still on a longer cooldown) or..... illusion of life..... (which i personally believe is, like, really bad for a group to rely on??? but, different discussion)

 

core mesmer is great to have in a group

just not great enough to waste a slot for a single button or two, at least not all the time

that's the point of trying to give them a useful option 

 

26 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Believe me, I don't want to be stuck with chrono in zergs forever, I actually hate chrono and love mirage, I wish other mesmer utilities were more useful, but it is what it is.

 

i dunno, people recently have been freaking out at my damage meters outparsing scourges and revs on mirage GS ambush in random blob zergs, which yea, is what i'm advocating is what isn't exactly the best excuse for... content.... but, still, anecdotally, it brings competitive damage 

 

along with still bringing Null Field to zone/strip and curtain to pull

what do i lose? grav well? is that necessary if people die on curtain pull? is that necessary if people die from ranged pressure from 1,200m beams?

more strips for meter padding? i'd rather useless damage meter padding than useless strip padding

 

i couldn't care less about stripping regen/vigor/fury throughout the fight randomly when it doesn't matter

get that stab ripped off in a bomb and what are they gonna do? stun break? they'd stun break out of grav well at that point, and then what the flippity butts are you bringing a chrono for? swinging a sword around at the air from range? 

alacrity can come from mirage and rev, and quickness can come from FB and scrapper, sooo?

 

grav well is great for confirming kills, don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to underplay its usefulness

 

but it should not be the only option

and honestly, it really isn't the only one, nor will it be, if virtuoso works out well 

 

coordinated groups have no real reason to bring chrono if virtuoso is half decent, which i'm fairly certain should end up being the case with what little we saw.... it's just unfortunate, that if it weren't for all the projectiles, it'd actually probably be really strong for medium-to-larger-scale, in all honesty

 

26 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

We'll just have to wait and see on traits

 

26 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

I think Virtuoso is looking like it's fitting more into the role of consistent dps as opposed to a duelist.

 

hoping for both of these to be true, but unfortunately not holding my breath due to this games track record

i'm all for willing to be pleasantly surprised, however 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Jables.4659]

On 7/27/2021 at 3:01 PM, Alpha.1308 said:

am i misunderstanding this comment? doom and gloom before something is out isn't worth discussing?

I assume he was referencing the complaints about how bad Mirage was going to be before PoF launched.  Historically, its a bad idea to bet against the new Mesmer elite specialization.  That being said, Core Mesmer was in a much better place back when Chrono and Mirage launched.  I hope I'm wrong and the Virtuoso is solid, but I wouldn't want to live in a house built on a weak foundation.

 

 

[Alpha.1308]

48 minutes ago, Jables.4659 said:

Historically, its a bad idea to bet against the new Mesmer elite specialization.

i'd agree if i didn't/can't see what they turned into 

 

it doesn't matter how broken this is on launch

the fundamental basics are broken when looking at what they were trying to, or should have tried to, achieve, which should have been not relying on a liability for a class mechanic

it should have been something actually reliable 

 

at LEAST chrono had wells, and had an opportunity to be strong area control 

but the wells ended up being garbage for that (from a pvp standpoint, i don't care about pve where anything can work if you tweak the numbers, who the holy butts is gonna stand in a well for its last tick????????? that's not how pvp freaking works, this balance team needs to stop testing this trash on training dummy golems)

 

then, it had the opportunity to actually be a unique support, but it's just a shell of what it could have been (and i get it, old signet of inspiration was broken, i'm not advocating it shouldn't have been nerfed, but.... not like this)

 

mirage had/has greatsword ambush

 

it's the most reliable thing mesmer has ever had in 10 years 

 

and it's just plainly not enough, because it's also on the core class of shatters/clones/phantasms

 

virtuoso still relies on phantasms, further dragging itself down, even ignoring the projectiles

the phantasms should have been weaker, but turned into basically spirit weapons on guardian, that would have gone a massive long way in making this feel more reliable, and more thematic for the Illusionary Weaponry concept, conjuring the weapons only 

 

all of this, coupled with the games history, is very disheartening to think of that, even if this class is absolutely broken strong on launch, or even just "acceptable", the slightest nerf here or there could easily render it nothing more than the last 2, shells of what they could have been; afraid of the potential due to a fundamentally strong yet unreliable mechanic (NPC spams)

 

and i'm still not saying i believe virtuoso would be completely useless, it still has the wells chrono should have had

but it's... concerning, overall

Edited July 29, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Hackuuna.4085]

On 7/27/2021 at 1:21 PM, zealex.9410 said:

I remember that (that was my reaction to mirage and also "holy kitten i can dodge while bursting) but i also remember so many ppl viewing the new dodge as a negative because it didnt have the movement.

I remember during the Mirage preview it was the most fun I'd ever had on the mesmer class up until that point, and then coming to this forum and seeing how much negative reaction it got was surprising to me. That said, reflect being up so often in WvW zergs does mean these mechanics will be severely hindered in some situations, but I'm honestly looking forward to that over having my clones randomly being killed and being unable to shatter as a result.

[Alpha.1308]

16 minutes ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

I'm honestly looking forward to that over having my clones randomly being killed and being unable to shatter as a result.

i'm on the fence about that 

we really shouldn't just accept garbage just because other garbage is worse

 

again, the only other thing this basically offers is area control, which is what chrono should have had to begin with from their wells... or even mirage with... actual "mirages".... could have been, like, AoE phantasms of structures or something....

 

we could have gotten something entirely different, or unique, or... well, useful, and had chrono/mirage be what this virtuoso looks like it will be 

 

but, again, emphasis on "looks" like, considering everything is up in the air at this point

we don't even 100% know if those projectiles on F1 keys and utilities/heal/elite are destructible, only the dagger skills itself have "combo finisher" in the tooltips

course, that doesn't automatically mean they won't be, but.... wishful thinking..... 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/27/2021 at 3:45 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Eh, I think it's going to be hard to compete with chrono spot in zergs anyways. Being able to do more damage isn't going to cut it. Gravity well and csplit are too useful to have, while the virt will have a piercing line aoe, pfft. It'll end up being a roamer/small group spec.

 

I actually think they should switch gravity well with time warp for core/chrono elites, that way any mesmer will have access to gravity well at least for zergs, but I don't think anyone else would agree with that.

 

I don't think this spec will phase out Chrono but I do think it might actually be quite good in comped groups as support DPS.

The dagger is quite unlikely to be kept - S/F + GS will remain superior due to projectile issues, but the rest of the kit is potentially really, really good for ZvZ.  I think it'll be entirely up to the traits.

 

Unreflectable AoE immob with a psuedo-downstate finisher and some big PbAoE damage on those utilities is actually nutty for larger engagements.  Self-peel on F4 for DPS is also really strong when considering the current meta of stack -> pick -> roll.

[zealex.9410]

1 hour ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

I remember during the Mirage preview it was the most fun I'd ever had on the mesmer class up until that point, and then coming to this forum and seeing how much negative reaction it got was surprising to me. That said, reflect being up so often in WvW zergs does mean these mechanics will be severely hindered in some situations, but I'm honestly looking forward to that over having my clones randomly being killed and being unable to shatter as a result.

Knowing anet, they will give the daggers the infinite horizon treatment.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

5 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

i'd agree if i didn't/can't see what they turned into 

 

it doesn't matter how broken this is on launch

the fundamental basics are broken when looking at what they were trying to, or should have tried to, achieve, which should have been not relying on a liability for a class mechanic

it should have been something actually reliable 

 

at LEAST chrono had wells, and had an opportunity to be strong area control 

but the wells ended up being garbage for that (from a pvp standpoint, i don't care about pve where anything can work if you tweak the numbers, who the holy butts is gonna stand in a well for its last tick????????? that's not how pvp freaking works, this balance team needs to stop testing this trash on training dummy golems)

 

then, it had the opportunity to actually be a unique support, but it's just a shell of what it could have been (and i get it, old signet of inspiration was broken, i'm not advocating it shouldn't have been nerfed, but.... not like this)

 

mirage had/has greatsword ambush

 

it's the most reliable thing mesmer has ever had in 10 years 

 

and it's just plainly not enough, because it's also on the core class of shatters/clones/phantasms

 

virtuoso still relies on phantasms, further dragging itself down, even ignoring the projectiles

the phantasms should have been weaker, but turned into basically spirit weapons on guardian, that would have gone a massive long way in making this feel more reliable, and more thematic for the Illusionary Weaponry concept, conjuring the weapons only 

 

all of this, coupled with the games history, is very disheartening to think of that, even if this class is absolutely broken strong on launch, or even just "acceptable", the slightest nerf here or there could easily render it nothing more than the last 2, shells of what they could have been; afraid of the potential due to a fundamentally strong yet unreliable mechanic (NPC spams)

 

and i'm still not saying i believe virtuoso would be completely useless, it still has the wells chrono should have had

but it's... concerning, overall

 

chrono and mirage had no liabilities when they came out. and now look what happened. no distortion, or minus a dodge. virtuoso seems to have enough built-in counterplay that they can balance it numerically instead of going through drawn out mechanical redesigns like the previous two.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[anduriell.6280]

Projectiles are fine, if current projectile hate is fine for ranger it is fine for virtuoso too. 

[Alpha.1308]

27 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

chrono and mirage had no liabilities when they came out.

?????????

i am confusion

continuum split being a destructible object isn't a "liability" for such a massive swing potential ability? like, we're still talking about pvp, with over 5-10 people attacking the same location with random abilities all over the place, right?

 

 

 

wells only being strong on the last tick (grav excluded)?

how is that one not a liability, exactly?

nowhere at all in any pvp situation is that ever a viable option 

if it's an enemy well, you walk out of it, if you don't, you'd die no matter what happened, that's just how coordinated pvp works

 

even spvp, ya know, where the whole goal is to hold onto a small point? nobody would ever even think to bring one of the trashy wells, which is all of them minus grav (which is also fairly trashy ever since CC damage nerf)

 

if it's an allied well, you drop damage into that well and they don't even get the absolute mediocre amount of possible support that drops from them because they're dead waiting for it to pop 

 

they offer absolutely no value (again, grav excluded) 

 

not to mention it was/is still based on clones/phantasms 

 

and mirage was/is still based on clones/phantasms, as well, so it still suffers core mesmer liabilities, which was the initial discussion to  begin with; something unreliable, which still falls onto phantasms for virtuoso, and now projectile reflects

(which, again again, it's still up in the air because we don't 100% know how it'll function, they still have "damage here" skills, which is really good, but it's still a concern to bring up)

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

if current projectile hate is fine for ranger

key word being "IF"

which..... it is certainly not "fine for ranger"

 

bring a ranger into any coordinated group to fight another coordinated group of more than 10 people

you'd get laughed at and harassed until you left because of how useless it is and even detrimental to your team to try and use a longbow/shortbow with how many "accidental" bubbles every class has access to right now 

 

you'll need the ranged damage when you absolutely need it the most, and at that time, a competent enemy team will always have a bubble prepared; you get almost no value out of random solo pot shots 

 

if they don't bubble when it's necessary.... i mean, you're just clubbing baby seals, then, because there's so many reflects/destructive bubbles in this game, you can't not accidentally have them all over the place, and you might as well just open world pve at that point, in which case, sure, bring a longbow ranger, bring anything, for that matter, if you're just fighting NPCs that can barely fight back and don't make plans, anything works, really  

 

 

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

2 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

?????????

i am confusion

continuum split being a destructible object isn't a "liability" for such a massive swing potential ability? like, we're still talking about pvp, with over 5-10 people attacking the same location with random abilities all over the place, right?

 

 

 

wells only being strong on the last tick (grav excluded)?

how is that one not a liability, exactly?

nowhere at all in any pvp situation is that ever a viable option 

if it's an enemy well, you walk out of it, if you don't, you'd die no matter what happened, that's just how coordinated pvp works

 

even spvp, ya know, where the whole goal is to hold onto a small point? nobody would ever even think to bring one of the trashy wells, which is all of them minus grav (which is also fairly trashy ever since CC damage nerf)

 

if it's an allied well, you drop damage into that well and they don't even get the absolute mediocre amount of possible support that drops from them because they're dead waiting for it to pop 

 

they offer absolutely no value (again, grav excluded) 

 

not to mention it was/is still based on clones/phantasms 

 

and mirage was/is still based on clones/phantasms, as well, so it still suffers core mesmer liabilities, which was the initial discussion to  begin with; something unreliable, which still falls onto phantasms for virtuoso, and now projectile reflects

(which, again again, it's still up in the air because we don't 100% know how it'll function, they still have "damage here" skills, which is really good, but it's still a concern to bring up)

 

 

 

key word being "IF"

which..... it is certainly not "fine for ranger"

 

bring a ranger into any coordinated group to fight another coordinated group of more than 10 people

you'd get laughed at and harassed until you left because of how useless it is and even detrimental to your team to try and use a longbow/shortbow with how many "accidental" bubbles every class has access to right now 

 

you'll need the ranged damage when you absolutely need it the most, and at that time, a competent enemy team will always have a bubble prepared; you get almost no value out of random solo pot shots 

 

if they don't bubble when it's necessary.... i mean, you're just clubbing baby seals, then, because there's so many reflects/destructive bubbles in this game, you can't not accidentally have them all over the place, and you might as well just open world pve at that point, in which case, sure, bring a longbow ranger, bring anything, for that matter, if you're just fighting NPCs that can barely fight back and don't make plans, anything works, really  

 

 

 

when chrono came out f5 was tacked on. It was just core shatters with free alacrity and the ability to double skills. the viability of non-grav wells was irrelevant to bursting people down with basically no counterplay. Mirage was damage built into evade frames.

 

Virtuoso's block/distortion is channeled, it has no instant skills, the player is the source of damage.  There are no defensive mechanics holding back its power. 

 

Think of Necro's lich form. It's allowed to be incredibly strong because it is easily counterable.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Just for context, try to slot spectral grasp for necro in wvw and you'll force your team to "push" enemy 😜

 

Or slot you are all weaklings if you actually want it to do something...two utilities gone like that though.