When can we get a playable Tengu Race? [Merged]

[Flapjackson.1596]

Cross posting my proposal on why this topic is not as big a “waste” of resources as people tend to believe: 

 

That’s right. It’s everybody’s favorite, definitely not controversial topic: playable Tengu. No matter if you love or hate the idea, it is a fact that implementing a new playable race would take considerable dev resources. The criticism of this is that it would be a waste of resources as a new race isn’t “content”. You make a bird and that’s it.

I am making the case that such an argument does not rule out playable Tengu. How? Pair it with the release of another long requested feature: 

RACE CHANGE

The arrival of playable Tengu could herald a new gemstore upgrade, race change. For the price of 800 gems (the equivalent of making a new character and cheaper than a FFXIV race change for comparison). Here is my proposal for how this all works:
Tengu:
- A new Tengu character starts at level 80 and has an extended tutorial section. This is much more robust than the other races tutorial and continues into the shiny new Shing Jea training grounds.
- New collections and quests encourage the Tengu player to stay in the training grounds for a longer time. Collections and quests across Cantha provide unblockable cultural armor and weapons for Tengu players.
- Tengu who wish to replay old story content are morphed into a standard human male/female model with human voice acting. A message such as “you are experiencing the history of the Commander of Tyria” appears when doing old story content. 

Race Change:
- 800 gems, unlimited amounts able to be purchased.
- A player character must have completed the lvl 40 personal story step “Setting the Stage” to be able to race change. This puts them past any relevant race-related story steps.
- A player character must be level 80 to race change to a Tengu.
- A player character must either unequip all gear, all racial gear/skills prior to changing or the system automatically normalizes the gear skins and skill bar after changing.
- The player selects what race-specific character creation and Order selection they wish during race change.
- Special hairstyles/faces/etc are not available in race change. Or maybe they should be? 

But OP, how does this affect the content argument?
It adds a little content, but that’s okay. Anet adds things all the time that aren’t content, to the gemstore. A new race and a new upgrade could in my opinion be a fair reason to justify the dev costs of this proposal. You would be generating a new source of income to cover the dev costs and possibly more as we have seen race change be extremely popular in games such as FFXIV. 

Isn’t it bad to add an easy way to get to level 80?
No. Veteran players already find leveling a joke. If you don’t want to play as a bird, you spam your stacks of level scrolls, tomes, or maybe a boost. For new players it is better as well. Level 1-79 is severely outdated content for the game. The Shing Jea training grounds are far superior as a tutorial as you are introducing the player to actually relevant mechanics in relevant content. The worst thing you can do to sell new players on the game is toss them into 2012 starter zones. They won’t even witness the actual modern state of the game and what the game truly has to offer. 

TL;DR: Playable Tengu can do two things. First, it can be a big hype change to encourage players to buy race changes or new character slots. Second, it can provide a fast access to EoD training and offer the chance for a much more detailed tutorial for new and returning players. Embrace the bird.

[costepj.5120]

Neatly ignoring all the even greater challenges with introducing race changes to the game!

[Sobx.1758]

50 minutes ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

Cross posting my proposal on why this topic is not as big a “waste” of resources as people tend to believe: 

 

That’s right. It’s everybody’s favorite, definitely not controversial topic: playable Tengu. No matter if you love or hate the idea, it is a fact that implementing a new playable race would take considerable dev resources. The criticism of this is that it would be a waste of resources as a new race isn’t “content”. You make a bird and that’s it.

I am making the case that such an argument does not rule out playable Tengu. How? Pair it with the release of another long requested feature: 

RACE CHANGE

The arrival of playable Tengu could herald a new gemstore upgrade, race change. For the price of 800 gems (the equivalent of making a new character and cheaper than a FFXIV race change for comparison). Here is my proposal for how this all works:
Tengu:
- A new Tengu character starts at level 80 and has an extended tutorial section. This is much more robust than the other races tutorial and continues into the shiny new Shing Jea training grounds.
- New collections and quests encourage the Tengu player to stay in the training grounds for a longer time. Collections and quests across Cantha provide unblockable cultural armor and weapons for Tengu players.
- Tengu who wish to replay old story content are morphed into a standard human male/female model with human voice acting. A message such as “you are experiencing the history of the Commander of Tyria” appears when doing old story content. 

Race Change:
- 800 gems, unlimited amounts able to be purchased.
- A player character must have completed the lvl 40 personal story step “Setting the Stage” to be able to race change. This puts them past any relevant race-related story steps.
- A player character must be level 80 to race change to a Tengu.
- A player character must either unequip all gear, all racial gear/skills prior to changing or the system automatically normalizes the gear skins and skill bar after changing.
- The player selects what race-specific character creation and Order selection they wish during race change.
- Special hairstyles/faces/etc are not available in race change. Or maybe they should be? 

But OP, how does this affect the content argument?
It adds a little content, but that’s okay. Anet adds things all the time that aren’t content, to the gemstore. A new race and a new upgrade could in my opinion be a fair reason to justify the dev costs of this proposal. You would be generating a new source of income to cover the dev costs and possibly more as we have seen race change be extremely popular in games such as FFXIV. 

Isn’t it bad to add an easy way to get to level 80?
No. Veteran players already find leveling a joke. If you don’t want to play as a bird, you spam your stacks of level scrolls, tomes, or maybe a boost. For new players it is better as well. Level 1-79 is severely outdated content for the game. The Shing Jea training grounds are far superior as a tutorial as you are introducing the player to actually relevant mechanics in relevant content. The worst thing you can do to sell new players on the game is toss them into 2012 starter zones. They won’t even witness the actual modern state of the game and what the game truly has to offer. 

TL;DR: Playable Tengu can do two things. First, it can be a big hype change to encourage players to buy race changes or new character slots. Second, it can provide a fast access to EoD training and offer the chance for a much more detailed tutorial for new and returning players. Embrace the bird.

Ah, so it might not be a waste IF they implement a race change, which they specifically said they won't implement. I mean sure, if race change would become a thing, then I agree. But until then... Not really.

[Flapjackson.1596]

39 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

Neatly ignoring all the even greater challenges with introducing race changes to the game!

Such as? Would you be kind enough to list them or continue making vague allusions?

[costepj.5120]

Or you could search the forum for the many threads on the topic, including those with references to where the devs explained why it can't happen:

"1) I am afraid that the team does contemplate different possibilities and new features for the future but this one is not among those.2) There are a lot of far-reaching consequences of allowing one character to play through every race’s personal story or equip any cultural armor/weapons.3) Thanks for asking. To change the race in the Gem store will not be an option in Guild Wars 2."

Edited October 29, 2021 by costepj.5120

[Flapjackson.1596]

40 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

Or you could search the forum for the many threads on the topic, including those with references to where the devs explained why it can't happen:

"1) I am afraid that the team does contemplate different possibilities and new features for the future but this one is not among those.2) There are a lot of far-reaching consequences of allowing one character to play through every race’s personal story or equip any cultural armor/weapons.3) Thanks for asking. To change the race in the Gem store will not be an option in Guild Wars 2."

The quote you are posting is another player referencing a dev comment from September of 2012!!  Consider how ridiculous it is to base assumptions off of that, of just how many things Anet said would NEVER be in the game that are now in it. That predates mounts, predates expansions, raids, even predates the wardrobe system!

 

and so again, I ask you, what are the actual issues with a race change in GW2 in the year 2021? We know that after level 30 story it literally does not matter what race you are. It’s the same story. Yes, sylvari get some need tidbits in HoT but since the level 40 story encounter I listed on my proposal the story does not care if you are a charr, norn, or whatever. If you want to call out my proposal as untenable then present the actual reasons why instead of falling back on a statement made almost a decade ago.

[costepj.5120]

What has changed with regard to how the story is coded in the meantime?

[Flapjackson.1596]

7 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

What has changed with regard to how the story is coded in the meantime?

Nothing, which is an irrelevant question to ask as you might have read from my proposal that a race change should only be useable after the character has completed the first 3 story chapters of race-relevant story. At that point onwards the players race doesn’t matter so what would be the issue? Where would there even be room for error?

[costepj.5120]

So the devs said it wouldn't happen and nothing has changed since; I think you have your answer.

[kharmin.7683]

Queue the "but mounts!" response

[Flapjackson.1596]

Queue the "but everything" response. The game is unrecognizable to the 2012 version. It is ludicrous to use that as a justification for why something won't happen. It's not even a real reason, it's just saying it won't happen because it won't.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

Queue the "but everything" response. The game is unrecognizable to the 2012 version. It is ludicrous to use that as a justification for why something won't happen. It's not even a real reason, it's just saying it won't happen because it won't.

It is the real reason stated by the devs. The fact that you dislike it or the fact that at some point maybe potentially they could be able to unspaghetti the code doesn't change anything about what we currently know about it. Go tell the devs that "it's not even a real reason", because apparently they were not aware of it when they said it.

 

Ah yes, cue the "I have nothing to say, but I don't like these facts" confused reaction emotes 🥱

Edited October 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

Nothing, which is an irrelevant question to ask as you might have read from my proposal that a race change should only be useable after the character has completed the first 3 story chapters of race-relevant story. At that point onwards the players race doesn’t matter so what would be the issue? Where would there even be room for error?

...you do realize that character race and specific choices made at character creation (and during the racial arc of the personal story) do influence a lot of things later on, and are apparently coded in such a way they cannot be easily changed? And they influence a lot of stuff that happen later, that also sets some "character story markers", that, again, cannot be easily changed later on?

i.e. if you're a charr, the legion you chose, and some of the choices from the personal story affect things in LS5, and on Drizzlewood map that you can see. Now, what you think might going to happen if one of those later-game things checks for one of such switches, and you'd happen to be a charr turned into a different race, or a different race turned into charr?

Notice, that (as we know it) there were hundreds of such things in the code even then, with absolutely no safeguards included. Since then, as far as we know, they kept coding stuff pretty much the same way (assuming some things decided on early in the game won't ever change, and thus without making safeguards for those things), so it's practically certain there's way, way more such potential "code bombs" planted around than there were when they first said race change is something they'd not want to do.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Oh Goodie, this thread again.  Can't wait to see the same arguments used ad nauseam, especially that one about how mounts being added means anything can, that one's my favorite.  Insert 'Beating Dead Horse' gif here.

[kharmin.7683]

10 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Oh Goodie, this thread again.  Can't wait to see the same arguments used ad nauseam, especially that one about how mounts being added means anything can, that one's my favorite.  Insert 'Beating Dead Horse' gif here.

At least it is a continuation of an existing thread and not yet another one.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

At least it is a continuation of an existing thread and not yet another one.

This also has an unfortunate result ... the thread continues to get bumped ... though nothing about the game that is a barrier to adding more playable races does. People just don't want to accept reality. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This also has an unfortunate result ... the thread continues to get bumped ... though nothing about the game that is a barrier to adding more playable races does. People just don't want to accept reality. 

True but bumping is against the ToS especially if the poster isn't adding anything new to the conversation.  potato/pohtahtoe

[mindcircus.1506]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:55 AM, Flapjackson.1596 said:

Cross posting my proposal on why this topic is not as big a “waste” of resources as people tend to believe: 

 

That’s right. It’s everybody’s favorite, definitely not controversial topic: playable Tengu. No matter if you love or hate the idea, it is a fact that implementing a new playable race would take considerable dev resources. The criticism of this is that it would be a waste of resources as a new race isn’t “content”. You make a bird and that’s it.

I am making the case that such an argument does not rule out playable Tengu. How? Pair it with the release of another long requested feature: 

RACE CHANGE

The arrival of playable Tengu could herald a new gemstore upgrade, race change. For the price of 800 gems (the equivalent of making a new character and cheaper than a FFXIV race change for comparison). Here is my proposal for how this all works:
Tengu:
- A new Tengu character starts at level 80 and has an extended tutorial section. This is much more robust than the other races tutorial and continues into the shiny new Shing Jea training grounds.
- New collections and quests encourage the Tengu player to stay in the training grounds for a longer time. Collections and quests across Cantha provide unblockable cultural armor and weapons for Tengu players.
- Tengu who wish to replay old story content are morphed into a standard human male/female model with human voice acting. A message such as “you are experiencing the history of the Commander of Tyria” appears when doing old story content. 

Race Change:
- 800 gems, unlimited amounts able to be purchased.
- A player character must have completed the lvl 40 personal story step “Setting the Stage” to be able to race change. This puts them past any relevant race-related story steps.
- A player character must be level 80 to race change to a Tengu.
- A player character must either unequip all gear, all racial gear/skills prior to changing or the system automatically normalizes the gear skins and skill bar after changing.
- The player selects what race-specific character creation and Order selection they wish during race change.
- Special hairstyles/faces/etc are not available in race change. Or maybe they should be? 

But OP, how does this affect the content argument?
It adds a little content, but that’s okay. Anet adds things all the time that aren’t content, to the gemstore. A new race and a new upgrade could in my opinion be a fair reason to justify the dev costs of this proposal. You would be generating a new source of income to cover the dev costs and possibly more as we have seen race change be extremely popular in games such as FFXIV. 

Isn’t it bad to add an easy way to get to level 80?
No. Veteran players already find leveling a joke. If you don’t want to play as a bird, you spam your stacks of level scrolls, tomes, or maybe a boost. For new players it is better as well. Level 1-79 is severely outdated content for the game. The Shing Jea training grounds are far superior as a tutorial as you are introducing the player to actually relevant mechanics in relevant content. The worst thing you can do to sell new players on the game is toss them into 2012 starter zones. They won’t even witness the actual modern state of the game and what the game truly has to offer. 

TL;DR: Playable Tengu can do two things. First, it can be a big hype change to encourage players to buy race changes or new character slots. Second, it can provide a fast access to EoD training and offer the chance for a much more detailed tutorial for new and returning players. Embrace the bird.

Often when this issue comes up I ask the following question and always the armchair designers and forum business analysts ignore it... but lets take a shot.

 

GW2 efficiency shows that the majority of the active playtime across all accounts takes place on human characters.

The remaining 4 races account for less than half the playtime total in the game.

No alternative race accounts for more than 16% of active playtime.

A Guild Wars 2 developer is on record saying he was in fact a little disappointed at the uptake of the players on the alternative races.

 

Given these facts, why does it make financial sense for Arenanet to invest the resources needed to overcome the non-trivial amount of issues that block the addition of a new race in Guild Wars 2?

 

Do you have any data to back up your revenue model of 800 Gems for a Race Transfer and the profit it would generate?

Have you crunched the actual numbers to see if a feature that appeals to 16% of the active Playerbase's ongoing development costs including new cosmetics, voice acting and QA will be offset?

 

"Hype" is not quantifiable. You have zero projections about how much revenue your ideas would .make. You are willfully ignoring facts and data.

You don't have the data to tell if your plan would make money.

Know who has that kind of data?

Arenanet...And despite the community ask they are not doing it.

 

Doesn't that tell you something?

[Gibson.4036]

Mounts are irrelevant since the devs never said “no mounts”. 
Apples and oranges.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Mounts are irrelevant since the devs never said “no mounts”. 
Apples and oranges.

Indubitably.

[De Dominator.9834]

Was going to start a new discussion but this feels more fitting...

How would people feel if a the Tengu or another new race came in an expansion in the place of a new system/mechanics?
 

Every expansion so far has focused on the addition of new mechanics, elite specs and masteries across all of them, Gliding in HoT, Mounts in PoF, Fishing and Skiffs in EoD etc. But how would you feel if a future expansion added a new race instead?

 

As much as I would love a new race, namely Tengu, it seems to me that such a large and expansive addition could only be made as part of an Expansion and would have to come at the cost of another additions and personally I worry that would limit the amount of new content available at end game, while it would be fun to get and play a new race once you finish the racial personal story and join an Order any new unique stuff from it would more or less be done, and while there would obviously still be new maps, events, raids etc. a lack of actual mechanics could hamper the amount of enjoyment to be had.

[kharmin.7683]

11 minutes ago, De Dominator.9834 said:

Was going to start a new discussion but this feels more fitting...

How would people feel if a the Tengu or another new race came in an expansion in the place of a new system/mechanics?
 

 

I suggest a forums search on "Tengu" to find the other threads which have already discussed this.

[De Dominator.9834]

3 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I suggest a forums search on "Tengu" to find the other threads which have already discussed this.

I did, and I didnt find any that actually discussed how they would feel about it coming at the cost of other mechanics/additions. Most Tengu searches just result in this thread.

[Sigmoid.7082]

44 minutes ago, De Dominator.9834 said:

I did, and I didnt find any that actually discussed how they would feel about it coming at the cost of other mechanics/additions. 

Considering how one of the most common answers is "No, I wouldn't want to see them add tengu. I would rather them work on something else" I feel you have your answer.

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, De Dominator.9834 said:

How would people feel if a the Tengu or another new race came in an expansion

What would a new race add to the game?