Warrior espec icon and weapon

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You are also denying that icon 6 is revenant, even if it literally has the core revenant icon built into it.

I don't, I just remind you that it's not necessarily the revenant's next e-spec symbol contrary to your assumptions. Based on prior e-spec symbols, a symbol with feature that remind you of a core profession's symbol don't necessarily go to this profession.

 

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Because icon 9 is the only one which indicates chemicals, which is a thematic I was waiting for years to get explored further in an engineer elite spec.

 

I'm confused there, aren't grenade kit, bomb kit, mortar kit, elixir gun and pistols loaded with offensive chemicals (Glue bomb, smoke bomb, poison grenade, freeze grenade, poison gas shell, endothermic shell, fumigate, acid bomb, glue shot, blow torch, poison dart voley)? Doesn't purge gyro grant you access to chemical field?

 

What do you expect ANet to add to those chemical attacks without being as redundant than it is already? Smoke, poison, fire/freeze and explosion that's all you can expect from offensive chemicals and it's already, objectively, overused in the core design.

 

Also, a symbol don't tell you: "It's a power based e-spec!". Since you want to focus heavily on the 8th symbol believing it's a golem, you should also think that a golem might throw toxic fume just like fumigate (which would be chemicals), it can also have serrated blades that bleed it's foes, without forgeting the classic but effective flamethrower. It would be a golem afterall, you could put anything on it even a lazer!

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't, I just remind you that it's not necessarily the revenant's next e-spec symbol contrary to your assumptions. Based on prior e-spec symbols, a symbol with feature that remind you of a core profession's symbol don't necessarily go to this profession.

It doesn't just remind me of a core profession symbol.... it literally has the core profession symbol integrated in it. Almost 1:1.

Tell me just one occurance in elite spec symbols in which they have built in the core icon of another class.

 

You mentioned the example of deadeye using an eye, just like revenant which has an eye icon. But these have 2 majorly different design, they look absolutely nothing alike.

But the 6th icon in the list really has the core revenant icon almost copy-pasted into it.

 

Thinking that this is not going to be revenant is delusional.

 

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm confused there, aren't grenade kit, bomb kit, mortar kit, elixir gun and pistols loaded with offensive chemicals (Glue bomb, smoke bomb, poison grenade, freeze grenade, poison gas shell, endothermic shell, fumigate, acid bomb, glue shot, blow torch, poison dart voley)? Doesn't purge gyro grant you access to chemical field?

 

What do you expect ANet to add to those chemical attacks without being as redundant than it is already? Smoke, poison, fire/freeze and explosion that's all you can expect from offensive chemicals and it's already, objectively, overused in the core design.

Confusion from toxic gases, torment from acid spills (acid burns can be quite tormenting, ya know), boon removal (our only source of boon removal is the mine and boon removal was actually a feature of the acidic elixirs we used to have).

 

There are many more offensive usages you could explore for chemicals, you just have to be creative.

I also don't think that it is "overused". We have tons of examples with mechanical devices built by engineer, we still got scrapper with their gyros added. Same for skills which are using electricity.

 

I want an elite spec which is entirely themed for chemicals.

 

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Also, a symbol don't tell you: "It's a power based e-spec!". Since you want to focus heavily on the 8th symbol believing it's a golem, you should also think that a golem might throw toxic fume just like fumigate (which would be chemicals), it can also have serrated blades that bleed it's foes, without forgeting the classic but effective flamethrower. It would be a golem afterall, you could put anything on it even a lazer!

If it's a golem, then I already know that I will hate it thematically. Golem once again draws inspiration from Asuran thematics, they are the prime golem users in the end.

 

It would be a similar situation like we already had with holosmith. They might say that the lore origins of this profession are something else (in case of holosmith: human engineers building the photon forge with the help of the Zephyrite crystals), but in the end we all know that the underlying inspiration is once again Asuran. Anet even directly admitted that the aesthetical inspiration for holosmith was Asuran themselves, even if they had to make up another lore explanation.

 

Put a flamethrower on it, let it fumigate, let it bleed enemies with saws... all I am saying is that if we truly end up with a golem/mecha elite spec, I will hate it thematically and it will take away a great part of the excitement for this expansion for me.

[Kodama.6453]

Allow me to go back to the actual topic of this thread: the icon and espec of the warrior

 

I just stumbled upon another point about the icon which should be considered in my opinion.

OP is analysing the icon purely by the motif... what is shown in the icon.

But this kind of thing doesn't tend to be consistent between classes, it isn't even consistent inside of the warrior itself, considering that the core icon is a helmet and the rest of the icons are weapons surrounded by stuff, as OP has described.

 

I tried to take a look at the way the icons are designed. Not looking at the motif, but stuff like shapes and forms of the icons.

And I think that many class icons tend to be consistent in this regard, actually.

 

One thing that stands out for warrior in all the icons: symmetry

All warrior icons are perfectly mirrored, including the core icon. No other class does this across all icons.

 

If the shapes of the class icons are following design rules for Anet, then the bullet icon doesn't match. It is not symmetrical.

There are some class icons in the set which are symmetrical, with the mempo being one of them. So I think this one might be a possible option for warrior.

 

This line of thought can get extended to other classes as well.

•  Necromancer: tends to have very sharp and pointy ends (teeth of the skull; ending of all lines of the hood icon; scourge crest) coupled with some round curves. The bullet icon would match these features.
•  Guardian: usually has a very broad top end, which narrows to the bottom. Icon 8 matches this, icon 2 does to lesser extend as well, but it seems quite obvious that 2 is ranger.
• Engineer: primarily dominated by very round shapes (round bomb; hammer has a very round design despite not matching the hammer skin at all; photon forge icon literally dominated by 3 big circles). There is just one icon which is heavily dominated by a round shape: icon 9

 

I am not saying that this is necessarily correct, but maybe we should consider a bit more about the icon designs than just talking about the actual motives in them the whole time.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Allow me to go back to the actual topic of this thread: the icon and espec of the warrior

 

I just stumbled upon another point about the icon which should be considered in my opinion.

OP is analysing the icon purely by the motif... what is shown in the icon.

But this kind of thing doesn't tend to be consistent between classes, it isn't even consistent inside of the warrior elite spec itself, considering that the core icon is a helmet and the rest of the icons are weapons surrounded by stuff, as OP has described.

 

I tried to take a look at the way the icons are designed. Not looking at the motif, but stuff like shapes and forms of the icons.

And I think that many class icons tend to be consistent in this regard, actually.

 

One thing that stands out for warrior in all the icons: symmetry

All warrior icons are perfectly mirrored, including the core icon. No other class does this across all icons.

 

If the shapes of the class icons are following design rules for Anet, then the bullet icon doesn't match. It is not symmetrical.

There are some class icons in the set which are symmetrical, with the mempo being one of them. So I think this one might be a possible option for warrior.

 

This line of thought can get extended to other classes as well.

•  Necromancer: tends to have very sharp and pointy ends (teeth of the skull; ending of all lines of the hood icon; scourge crest) coupled with some round curves. The bullet icon would match these features.
•  Guardian: usually has a very broad top end, which narrows to the bottom. Icon 8 matches this, icon 2 does to lesser extend as well, but it seems quite obvious that 2 is ranger.
• Engineer: primarily dominated by very round shapes (round bomb; hammer has a very round design despite not matching the hammer skin at all; photon forge icon literally dominated by 3 big circles). There is just one icon which is heavily dominated by a round shape: icon 9

 

I am not saying that this is necessarily correct, but maybe we should consider a bit more about the icon designs than just talking about the actual motives in them the whole time.

i support this

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited July 31, 2021 by Acyk.9671

[Super Hayes.6890]

I mean, has Anet outright said that all especs will include a new weapon? Can they reimagine a weapon we already have that changes the skillbar for that weapon when we swap elite specs? Like a samurai with new greatsword skills? I wouldn't mind this line of thinking as the possibilities really open up. Please correct me if has been stated that it will be a new weapon type for all.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

31 minutes ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

I mean, has Anet outright said that all especs will include a new weapon? Can they reimagine a weapon we already have that changes the skillbar for that weapon when we swap elite specs? Like a samurai with new greatsword skills? I wouldn't mind this line of thinking as the possibilities really open up. Please correct me if has been stated that it will be a new weapon type for all.

It is pretty much a given that there will be a new weapon. It is what they do with e-specs. What makes you think that they would not do that just for changing warrior gs?

[Fueki.4753]

59 minutes ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

I mean, has Anet outright said that all especs will include a new weapon? Can they reimagine a weapon we already have that changes the skillbar for that weapon when we swap elite specs? Like a samurai with new greatsword skills? I wouldn't mind this line of thinking as the possibilities really open up. Please correct me if has been stated that it will be a new weapon type for all.

Why would they even change Greatsword of all weapons for a Samurai elite specialization?

A Samurai's preferred weapon was the bow, so if they would change any weapon for a Samurai theme it would be the Longbow, not the oversized clunkiness.

And their most-used melee weapons were polearms, so a Warrior's hypothetical Samurai elite specialization would mostly likely get access to Staff, with skills that world like glaives or spears. Them getting Shortbow would fit the teme as well, but we know Arenanet's opinion on ranged weapons on Warrior.

Unless they indulge in pop fiction waste, swords would hardly be of any concern for a Samurai elite specialization.

[Kodama.6453]

16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Why would they even change Greatsword of all weapons for a Samurai elite specialization?

A Samurai's preferred weapon was the bow, so if they would change any weapon for a Samurai theme it would be the Longbow, not the oversized clunkiness.

And their most-used melee weapons were polearms, so a Warrior's hypothetical Samurai elite specialization would mostly likely get access to Staff, with skills that world like glaives or spears. Them getting Shortbow would fit the teme as well, but we know Arenanet's opinion on ranged weapons on Warrior.

Unless they indulge in pop fiction waste, swords would hardly be of any concern for a Samurai elite specialization.

Media tropes.

 

While real life samurai mostly used bows and polearms, as you described, samurai are oftenly associated with the katana as the weapon of choice in games/movies/books/etc.

 

It's all over the place. I could probably name 5 games or more off the top of my head in which a samurai character class is associated with a katana  as their main weapon.

 

So all I am saying: it depends which route Anet would want to go with a samurai class. They could go with historical accuracy, giving a samurai a polearm or bow (I personally would also prefer if they give warrior a staff skin that looks like a spear for samurai), but they could also just pick up the common media trope of the samurai and give it a greatsword with a katana skin.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Guys, rev is going to be the samurai.

[Kodama.6453]

17 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Guys, rev is going to be the samurai.

And that assumption is based on what exactly...?

 

I mean, there is one icon which would be the most probable to become a samurai: the mempo.

However, I think we can all agree that revenant will get icon 6, since it literally has the core revenant icon copy-pasted into it.

 

It is not impossible, since the mempo could represent something else than a samurai. But probability kinda speaks against rev getting it here.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Nah. That rev like symbol looks like a decorated samurai helmet. That and I bet they get Greatsword.

[Fueki.4753]

58 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Media tropes.

 

While real life samurai mostly used bows and polearms, as you described, samurai are oftenly associated with the katana as the weapon of choice in games/movies/books/etc.

 

It's all over the place. I could probably name 5 games or more off the top of my head in which a samurai character class is associated with a katana  as their main weapon.

This exactly why I included the last sentence about pop fiction (which is almost equal to media tropes) waste.

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah. That rev like symbol looks like a decorated samurai helmet. That and I bet they get Greatsword.

What do you think the mempo will represent then?

I think it would be kinda confusing to create an icon which shows a symbol directly connected with samurai and then give the theme to a spec with an absolutely abstract icon.

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

This exactly why I included the last sentence about pop fiction (which is almost equal to media tropes) waste.

Well, you might consider it a waste (as said, I do, too. I would prefer to give it to warrior with a polearm), but there is a reason why the katana samurai is so extremely popular....

 

I can easily see Anet going the safe route here. Stuff like Yasuo from League of Legends are all time favourites of a ton of gamers.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

30 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

What do you think the mempo will represent then?

I think it would be kinda confusing to create an icon which shows a symbol directly connected with samurai and then give the theme to a spec with an absolutely abstract icon.

You're assuming that it is a menpo specifically though. That and pop culture has ninja wearing them as well (though they never did, see Sub-Zero for reference). With how heavy Anet uses pop culture references it could just as well be the thief spec icon for some ninja/assassin spec.

 

Others have pointed out the that crossed swords icon, with it's three diamonds that look like the initiative icon, could just as easily be the guardian icon. So I bet that is guardian, then menpo is thief, Rev obvious one is rev with GS.

 

I know you "need" the potion bottle to be engi, but I bet that is the necro one, leaving the bullet for warrior.

[Kodama.6453]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're assuming that it is a menpo specifically though. That and pop culture has ninja wearing them as well (though they never did, see Sub-Zero for reference). With how heavy Anet uses pop culture references it could just as well be the thief spec icon for some ninja/assassin spec.

 

Others have pointed out the that crossed swords icon, with it's three diamonds that look like the initiative icon, could just as easily be the guardian icon. So I bet that is guardian, then menpo is thief, Rev obvious one is rev with GS.

 

I know you "need" the potion bottle to be engi, but I bet that is the necro one, leaving the bullet for warrior.

Potion icon aside, if it really turns out like you described here, then I would think that this is a really weird and confused approach to communicating themes for the elite specs here.

 

If there is a ninja elite spec for thief.... then most people seem to consider the crossed swords to be the matching icon.

If samurai is a thing, then also alot of people seem to consider the mempo to be what makes most sense for this spec.

It could be that anet didn't appropriately predict how people would interpret these icons and what they are supposed to represent.

 

But if it really turns out like you describe here, then I would consider this to be a design failure.

Same for icon 8, I assume that you consider this one to be the icon for engineer. What engineer needs is a ranged condition weapon. If anet gives us once again a melee power weapon, then they are letting down engineer players in that regard by giving us the same stuff a third time in a row. If it is a condition weapon with range, then the icon is a design failure, because a dude with gigantic pauldrons and bare fists doesn't communicate it properly then.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Potion icon aside, if it really turns out like you described here, then I would think that this is a really weird and confused approach to communicating themes for the elite specs here.

I mean the only one we actually know is Virtuoso, the rest is just us all speculating.

19 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If there is a ninja elite spec for thief.... then most people seem to consider the crossed swords to be the matching icon.

If samurai is a thing, then also alot of people seem to consider the mempo to be what makes most sense for this spec.

It could be that anet didn't appropriately predict how people would interpret these icons and what they are supposed to represent.

Perhaps, but then  they probably wanted the misdirection to keep people from flat out guessing them all prior to their reveal.

19 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But if it really turns out like you describe here, then I would consider this to be a design failure.

Same for icon 8, I assume that you consider this one to be the icon for engineer. What engineer needs is a ranged condition weapon. If anet gives us once again a melee power weapon, then they are letting down engineer players in that regard by giving us the same stuff a third time in a row. If it is a condition weapon with range, then the icon is a design failure, because a dude with gigantic pauldrons and bare fists doesn't communicate it properly then.

Didn't you want dual maces for engineer though? Icon 8 could represent that just fine. Could be stylized maces on either side of the figure and not arms. 

[Kodama.6453]

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I mean the only one we actually know is Virtuoso, the rest is just us all speculating.

Yes, hence why I said if it really turns out as you described here.

It could be that the elite specs are something completely different we never even thought about.

 

But if they are giving us a ninja and samurai spec... then I would think it is a miscommunication in the icons if they are attributed in the way you described.

15 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Perhaps, but then  they probably wanted the misdirection to keep people from flat out guessing them all prior to their reveal.

But wanting to misdirect shouldn't go as far as creating icons which are directly going against what people associate with them, at least in my opinion.

 

The icons are there to quickly tell you "this one I am facing is a samurai, this one is a ninja". If people struggle to assign them correctly because Anet intentionally made them misdirecting, I think this is not good design.

16 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Didn't you want dual maces for engineer though? Icon 8 could represent that just fine. Could be stylized maces on either side of the figure and not arms. 

Yes, but they need to be ranged condition weapons.

Both our elite spec weapons so far have been melee. Both were power damage. One of them was a bruiser weapons with tons of defense and CC.

 

We don't need this stuff anymore. And if this icon is engineer, I really just see 2 possible cases:

The elite spec is a power bruiser, as the icon suggests. These are pauldrons and muscled arms with fists, not maces... And if it turns out to be a power bruiser, then anet failed at designing a good elite spec for engineer, since they are giving us more stuff of what we already have instead of something new.

If the spec does indeed have ranged condition damage, then at least not the whole design is a failure, but the icon definitely is.

 

You can't tell me that your thoughts about this icon are "this is something who will wittle me down from range with conditions". It looks like someone who goes close and personal, punching you in the face.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yes, hence why I said if it really turns out as you described here.

It could be that the elite specs are something completely different we never even thought about.

 

But if they are giving us a ninja and samurai spec... then I would think it is a miscommunication in the icons if they are attributed in the way you described.

But wanting to misdirect shouldn't go as far as creating icons which are directly going against what people associate with them, at least in my opinion.

 

The icons are there to quickly tell you "this one I am facing is a samurai, this one is a ninja". If people struggle to assign them correctly because Anet intentionally made them misdirecting, I think this is not good design.

Yes, but they need to be ranged condition weapons.

Both our elite spec weapons so far have been melee. Both were power damage. One of them was a bruiser weapons with tons of defense and CC.

 

We don't need this stuff anymore. And if this icon is engineer, I really just see 2 possible cases:

The elite spec is a power bruiser, as the icon suggests. These are pauldrons and muscled arms with fists, not maces... And if it turns out to be a power bruiser, then anet failed at designing a good elite spec for engineer, since they are giving us more stuff of what we already have instead of something new.

If the spec does indeed have ranged condition damage, then at least not the whole design is a failure, but the icon definitely is.

 

You can't tell me that your thoughts about this icon are "this is something who will wittle me down from range with conditions". It looks like someone who goes close and personal, punching you in the face.

That all depends. Mesmer GS and now dagger are ranged weapons after all. Nothing says that an engineer mace can't be condi either.

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That all depends. Mesmer GS and now dagger are ranged weapons after all. Nothing says that an engineer mace can't be condi either.

You misunderstand me, it seems.

Yes, I know they can make mace a ranged condition weapon.

I am talking about what the icon represents.

 

People over here and on reddit act alot like the icons are just some random symbols they scribbled because they feel like it... they are not, most elite spec icons are there to tell you what the spec is about. Like how berserker has a flaming sword, fitting for a dps spec which has a heavy focus on burning. Or deadeye has the eye with the crosshair, related to them being snipers which are marking enemies.

 

Now look at icon 8 and tell me that this icon does not scream "melee" for you... Again, it is a guy with gigantic pauldrons and muscled arms with bare fists. Even if these arms might represent a dual mace wielder, the design is still saying melee power damage.

Be honest, this icon does not look like someone who uses ranged attacks at all.

 

I would argue that this icon is actually the one which is the most obvious power user we ever had.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You misunderstand me, it seems.

Yes, I know they can make mace a ranged condition weapon.

I am talking about what the icon represents.

 

People over here and on reddit act alot like the icons are just some random symbols they scribbled because they feel like it... they are not, most elite spec icons are there to tell you what the spec is about. Like how berserker has a flaming sword, fitting for a dps spec which has a heavy focus on burning. Or deadeye has the eye with the crosshair, related to them being snipers which are marking enemies.

 

Now look at icon 8 and tell me that this icon does not scream "melee" for you... Again, it is a guy with gigantic pauldrons and muscled arms with bare fists. Even if these arms might represent a dual mace wielder, the design is still saying melee power damage.

Be honest, this icon does not look like someone who uses ranged attacks at all.

 

I would argue that this icon is actually the one which is the most obvious power user we ever had.

Looks like a golem to me. Those have ranged attacks as well last I checked. We'll have to see what it ultimately ends up being though. I think some of use latched onto obvious lines of thinking that will end up wrong in the end.

[artharon.9276]

45 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Now look at icon 8 and tell me that this icon does not scream "melee" for you... Again, it is a guy with gigantic pauldrons and muscled arms with bare fists. Even if these arms might represent a dual mace wielder, the design is still saying melee power damage.

Be honest, this icon does not look like someone who uses ranged attacks at all.#

 

that icon is for the new warror espec I gave a name previously, 

uses both hands, equally strong arms, 

some ranged burst.

Edited August 1, 2021 by artharon.9276

[Alchimist.4738]

I'd go with either a "gunslinger" elite with a gun, or a "samurai" one with a staff (alongside a naginata skin).

 

I'm not entirely sure what they could do with the core Warrior mechanic, though.

[Super Hayes.6890]

9 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Why would they even change Greatsword of all weapons for a Samurai elite specialization?

A Samurai's preferred weapon was the bow, so if they would change any weapon for a Samurai theme it would be the Longbow, not the oversized clunkiness.

And their most-used melee weapons were polearms, so a Warrior's hypothetical Samurai elite specialization would mostly likely get access to Staff, with skills that world like glaives or spears. Them getting Shortbow would fit the teme as well, but we know Arenanet's opinion on ranged weapons on Warrior.

Unless they indulge in pop fiction waste, swords would hardly be of any concern for a Samurai elite specialization.

Just an example off the top of my head lol. The point was, why would they be limited to the weapons that aren't currently available to the warrior. Guess I wasn't clear. They could make an Espec with any weapon and just have the skills change for the weapon when you equip the Espec. The greatsword was just a simple example not an idea.