Do you think other Mesmer Specs. should change to be less clone centric like the new EoD Spec.?

[SkinnyT.5382]

Once upon a time, in a beta a long long time ago, Mesmer's clones had real significance. However, over the years they just became things that you create just to get rid of. Mere balloons, floating on the battle field waiting to be popped. And as of right now, unless you are playing SPvP and/or a Mirage, there's absolutely no reason to keep them alive.

With the release of the new Virtuoso Elite Spec, there is an opportunity to rethink how Mesmers work. Now don't get me wrong. I think clones should still exist as  part of the Mesmer profession. After all it's what make the Mesmer profession unique in GW2. The fact that the Virtuoso gets rid of them completely is kind of a down side. What I'm thinking about is limiting clones, and making them more meaningful.

For this to work, the charging system would have to replace shatters. Like the Virtuoso, every time you create some sort of illusion you would get a charge to later spend on F1-F4 skills. What those F Skills do, would depend on the Elite Specs you have (or a lack there of). Some of them could work like shatters, others could be clone creating skills, but that could be a topic all on it's own.

 

Here's are some skill examples of  what I think clone skills could be.

 

-Staff 2 would function as is, teleporting you back and creating a clone at your original location. However this clone would have more hp and/or armor, and would cast taunt  on enemies around it. This would make the skill a truly disengaging skill, and that clone would have much more impact in a fight.

-Decoy would work similarly, except since you again stealth, the clone would just for example have the hp/armor boost. Making it more of an annoying dummy for the enemies (as it would follow them round).

-Signet of Humility could be reworked all together, so instead of transforming your foe into a moa, it could still stun them, but then create say 2 clones of yourself that would work similar to Thieves Guild and Warband Support skills, except it would be 2 doppelgangers of yourself which work outside the rule of the other clones.

 

Clones would also not be tied to enemies, so instead of having them die once the enemy dies, they would stay alive (unless destroyed) till you are out of combat. There also would have a limit of probably 3 as to not have an army of yourself walking around, as it is right now.

 

 

I just think that there is so much more that can be done with Mesmers and  illusions, and yet we are stuck creating and exploding clones of ourselves as our main mechanic. It gets tiresome sometimes, specially since we already have less skills compared other classes.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just no...as much as I would like the clones way pre expanc days or a rework it isn't going to happen. Fact that the new e-spec is going to remove clones is a indication that they want to stray away from AI clone gameplay. This is disappointing because I don't know how many people remember or watched this video.

 

[Jokubas.4265]

I feel the opposite, but for the same reasons. I think the rest of Mesmer should be more clone focused, now that there's a spec that doesn't have them.

 

Completely replace the F skills for the rest of Mesmer, leave Virtuoso as the one that builds balloons and pops them.

 

A suggestion I had awhile ago is that the F skills actually become the new way to summon illusions for Mesmer, rather than a way to get rid of them, to allow each spec to have more distinct themes. Virtuoso sort of opens up that door in a roundabout way.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Jokubas.4265

[Heika.5403]

52 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Just no...as much as I would like the clones way pre expanc days or a rework it isn't going to happen. Fact that the new e-spec is going to remove clones is a indication that they want to stray away from AI clone gameplay. This is disappointing because I don't know how many people remember or watched this video.

 

Lol... where is my staff's burning? I can't find it today LOL

 

If get rid of clones means be a free bag...  I choose clones...

 

Oh yes, the Virtuoso seems to be a free bag. And i really doubt that three selectable traits will change it from a competitive point of view. Even not for hardcore solo content.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Heika.5403

[Sleepwalker.1398]

The core elite skills Time Warp and Signet of Humility could use some rework cos they are on pretty high cool down and no one bothers to use cos of what it does. 

Having Signet of Humility on a 180 sec cool down in WvW is ridiculous cos the skill can be dodged/blocked and you just go on a really long cool down after that. I also don't think anyone uses Time Warp maybe outside of PVE.

[Salt Mode.3780]

 

14 minutes ago, Heika.5403 said:

Lol... where is my staff's burning? I can't find it today LOL

 

If get rid of clones means be a free bag...  I choose clones...

 

Oh yes, the Virtuoso seems to be a free bag. And i really doubt that three selectable traits will change it from a competitive point of view. Even not for hardcore dolo content.

they removed the burning on staff....

[Jables.4659]

3 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

The core elite skills Time Warp and Signet of Humility could use some rework cos they are on pretty high cool down and no one bothers to use cos of what it does. 

Having Signet of Humility on a 180 sec cool down in WvW is ridiculous cos the skill can be dodged/blocked and you just go on a really long cool down after that. I also don't think anyone uses Time Warp maybe outside of PVE.

They really are extremely outdated skills.  Time Warp was a fantastic support skill before elite specializations.  The mere existence of Firebrand has made that elite skill laughable.  I have a harder time justifying a cd reduction on Signet of Humility as it really can be devastating in the right context.  To be honest though, most of the time when I'm hit by it in WvW it actually ends up helping me.  I play Core Mesmer and I only ever eat SoH when I'm very outnumbered so I tend to appreciate the Moa Mobility. 

[Bunny.9834]

It would be nice to have the Mirage's shatter skills be different from the Core ones. 

 

[SkinnyT.5382]

On 7/28/2021 at 9:35 PM, Jokubas.4265 said:

...A suggestion I had awhile ago is that the F skills actually become the new way to summon illusions for Mesmer, rather than a way to get rid of them, to allow each spec to have more distinct themes...

 

I think your suggestion actually  goes in line with what I wish it would happen, which is for clones to become more significant and meaningful for our game play.  In this instance, Elite specs could definitely become even more unique, as the activation of the F skills could also have other effects other than just creating a clone.

 

My suggestions are merely a possibility of what I think could be. I mean our phantasm already explode right away, which is fine because their propose is to perform a very unique action and then be gone. But when it comes to clones, the only unique thing that they do is explode, and even then (as pointed out in other threads) their not reliable. The shatters are not consistent in their functionality specially in chaotic battles.

 

In simpler terms; I think we can do better.

Edited July 30, 2021 by SkinnyT.5382
grammatical error

[Skyroar.2974]

Clones were never a brilliant game mechanic. They bloat the screen, they auto-shatter when enemies die, they are a resource mechanic that can be destroyed... by accident, they are AI-reliant, and when they're useful by themselves, they automatize gameplay.

 

Virtuoso's simpler and more elegant solution is an evolution of Mesmer's game design. It's still visceral - you can see the resources on their back - but there's not as much bloat, not accidental destruction, no useless numbers popping on the screen (that mostly deal 0 or insignificant damage). It's just cleaner.

 

Mesmers all being clonemancers isn't the only thing that makes them unique. GW1 Mesmers were super unique for MMO standards, perhaps more so than GW2's in some areas, and they had 0 clones. In fact, the GW profession that is most associated with a minion army is the Necromancer. The clonemancer is a pink imitation.

 

Clones should never, ever, have been a base mechanic. They should have been, at best, exclusive to an Illusionist-themed elite spec, and perhaps available in one or two core game utilities as well. For example, Chronomancer is all about manipulating time: why the hell do they need clones for? They have clones, not because it makes sense, but because that's the base mechanic of the main class which they're stuck with. I would even argue that clones make the spec worse, as it gatekeeps one of the coolest mechanics of that spec, the F4 skill, behind that resource, meaning that it's hard for your average player to properly enjoy it, compared to, say, time-resetting mages from other games, like Ekko from League of Legends, which have the same trick in a much more streamlined way. For Mirage, though, clones are a bit more appropriate, thematically.

 

If we ever get a Bard/Minstrel spec in the future, they shouldn't have clones either.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Skyroar.2974

[lockhart.6048]

I would like to see (yet another...) Chrono rework. Chronos are basically core Mesmer plus+. The biggest game changer is the big skill reset button, and that's it. A majority of the wells are garbage, chrono shatters are almost identical to core shatters, still have phantasm->clone->shatter mechanic. Almost zero fundamental change in gameplay. I would like to see less clone-phantasm reliance to be honest

 

Mirages, in my opinion, are in a great place gameplay wise (not counting 1-dodge memes). Various mirage traits can really change how one plays, IH "clonemancers" being the big change. Mirage Cloak dodge itself is also a huge change, a very unique mechanic that really takes practice to take the most advantage of. The only gripe I have with mirage (not counting 1-dodge lol) is the kind of clunky Mirage Mirrors. Ideally, I would also like to see mirage unique shatters but eh... 

Edited July 29, 2021 by lockhart.6048

[AXLIB.8425]

making them useful would just make everyone in pvp scream about mesmer even more, and would probably just result in anet nerfing core mesmer even more or remove another dodge on mirage.

Edited July 29, 2021 by AXLIB.8425

[Arewn.2368]

I feel like the current direction of expending the clones quickly is a result of them being tied to a target. There's no carry over from enemy to enemy so you have to be able to use them quickly. Same reason they revamped phantasms to their current iteration. 

 

I'd love to see clones switch to what ever the mesmer targets. Or at least switch to the nearest target when theirs dies. 

And of course disappear when killed, shattered, or exiting combat.

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, lockhart.6048 said:

I would like to see (yet another...) Chrono rework. [...]

 

Mirages, in my opinion, are in a great place gameplay wise (not counting 1-dodge memes). [...]

I somewhat disagree.

 

Chrono does have it's issues and is indeed base+. But Mirage is a huge MESS. It might change the gameplay more than Chrono. But it is inconsistent and devalues the original class mechanic. Which makes even less sense in the context of ANet reworking how Illusions/Phantasms work to encourage people to Shatter. 

 

Not saying that Mirage is unplayable. But it most certainly isn't in a good spot. Conceptually it is beautiful. But imho it might be the biggest fail of all e-specs mechanicwise. Even worse than those that don't really have one like Scrapper. Because it got baseline Mesmer nerfed hard.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

25 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I somewhat disagree.

 

Chrono does have it's issues and is indeed base+. But Mirage is a huge MESS. It might change the gameplay more than Chrono. But it is inconsistent and devalues the original class mechanic. Which makes even less sense in the context of ANet reworking how Illusions/Phantasms work to encourage people to Shatter. 

 

Not saying that Mirage is unplayable. But it most certainly isn't in a good spot. Conceptually it is beautiful. But imho it might be the biggest fail of all e-specs mechanicwise. Even worse than those that don't really have one like Scrapper. Because it got baseline Mesmer nerfed hard.

I would argue that mirage conceptually is trash due to mirrors, those as a mechanic are boring as heck, over the years people threw several ideas how to make mirrors good but as usual ANerf doesn't listen mesmer players.

As for the mesmer nerfed hard, I still facepalm how a dozen people could delete a trait that was on game since 2012 due to cries  and nerf into oblivion a bunch of others.
As I said at the time, "problem is x", x is nerfed, "turns out y is also a problem" and so on until a whole profession is butchered.

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I would argue that mirage conceptually is trash due to mirrors, those as a mechanic are boring as heck, over the years people threw several ideas how to make mirrors good but as usual ANerf doesn't listen mesmer players.

Let me rephrase. I do like the concept for visuals and the overall theme. Which to somewhat also extents to Mirrors (visually).

 

But yes...  The gameplay design/implementation of Mirrors sadly is aweful. Even worse than Orbs on Revenant or Bandages on Engineer because it is so incremental to the spec. Additionally, it is blatantly obvious they didn't know how to implement their vision and how Mesmers should access their Ambushes. This is not limited to Mirrors. Creating the Mirage Dodge is weird as well. So is creating Mirage Cloak which basically is a second Distortion. Which was just nerfed into oblivion in HoT due PvP and raids.

 

As I said. Mirage is a mess.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Curunen.8729]

I think Mirage at least should be the primary clone focused spec in terms of "pet commands" and detargeting/visual/spatial confusion - although of course it would have been preferable if F1-3 issued clone ambush commands instead of having this tied through dodge and IH.

 

Chrono ideally could have been all about pbaoe pulsing effects on F1-4 skills, and potentially going away from clones.

 

Core maybe could still be fine as it is now with clones, just not as augmented as Mirage on that front.

[Xaylin.1860]

Totally agree with you.

[SkinnyT.5382]

I think everyone is bring up some really good points, and some great ideas on how things could be improved for the Mesmer. I won't even quote you guys because I'm agreeing with pretty much everyone. I think we're all kind of leaning onto the idea that the Mesmer needs an overhaul.

It was the same thing back in GW1. For years, although being a unique profession, it as often lack luster to play outside pvp. Our skills were very 1 enemy focused. (don't get me wrong I'm a mesmer main before, now, and forever) It wasn't until they had a huge skill overhaul that the Mesmer became genuinely fun to play in PvE, and quite frankly PvP too. Landing a Cry of Frustration or Psychic Instability interrupt in the middle of a group in PvP *chefs kiss*.

I think that 9 years after the original release, it's time anet relinquish their hold on the idea of clones a core mechanic. Hopefully, a successful Virtuoso will be the push they need.

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I think Mirage at least should be the primary clone focused spec in terms of "pet commands" and detargeting/visual/spatial confusion - although of course it would have been preferable if F1-3 issued clone ambush commands instead of having this tied through dodge and IH.

 

Chrono ideally could have been all about pbaoe pulsing effects on F1-4 skills, and potentially going away from clones.

 

Core maybe could still be fine as it is now with clones, just not as augmented as Mirage on that front.

I would like to point out that NO ONE even batted an eye to IH when elusive mind was released. If mirage had better options for GM then we wouldn't be funneled into picking up that trait. 

Its the same with forced to choose Dueling cuz we need Deceptive Evasion even tho for example a condi build would not benefit much from the rest of the traitline.

[Daishi.6027]

To be clear none of this matters for PvE.

But no, what should happen is a redesign to not make them useless and completely manipulatable by your opponents, and unless shattered or using an ambush they should primarily remain a defensive mechanic not an offensive one. That could mean having a "Hold/Regroup/Chase" option for clones. If we really want the precedent of condi clones assisting in DPS to remain then Power needs the equivalent, or the concession that they cannot drop below 1 hit point until shattered.  Alternatively in PvP modes stripping away the condi and balancing around it.

Defensively they need to functionally fool opponents and not in a way that can be foiled easily by AoE or by running behind a wall or kiting.

They need to reflect your HP pool at creation.
They either need to have, or visually mirror ALL your currently active buffs including "cannot mount" and crap. OR It needs to be a feature of mesmer and their buffs as well as illusions buffs are not displayed to anyone but allies.
Clone attack speed needs to match the player, fooling an opponent shouldn't constitute losing DPS and allowing for players to regain cooldowns while we match our auto attacks with the illusions.

If Illusions and searching for players is not a core mechanic to the class, then we are essentially a thief with one or two long cooldowns for stealth, with less evasion/blocks/etc, and less mobility. With only imposing a mildly annoying re-tab target, in a game where we have center screen priority.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Xaylin.1860]

21 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I would like to point out that NO ONE even batted an eye to IH when elusive mind was released. If mirage had better options for GM then we wouldn't be funneled into picking up that trait.

I'm not sure if that's 100% sure. For PvP sure. But for other modes?

 

But you do have a point with IH not having any real competition.

[Salt Mode.3780]

22 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I'm not sure if that's 100% sure. For PvP sure. But for other modes?

 

But you do have a point with IH not having any real competition.

Elusive mind was free stunbreaks, there is a difference between able to dodge while stunned vs breaking stun, this was huge with mirage cloak sword 1 as a escape card. This wasn't just for power builds as it was super op with condi builds as well, free infinite stunbreaks basically means u can never lock down a mirage that is the real reason why mirage was soo broken at released. 

 

They had to nerf it soo much that it now only cleanses 2 condis which I mean sigil of cleansing does 3 without wasting a dodge...and Dune Cloak is absolute garbage considering its a 180 radius...if they had meaningful choices for GM I'm pretty sure people will stop running IH.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Tseison.4659]

This should’ve been done a long time ago. In my opinion, clones, illusions etc… should’ve been an elite spec and the actually Mesmer profession should’ve been hex-like conditions, denial and control focused. At the end of the day, what’s done is done and it doesn’t seem clones/illusions will be replaced or removed from previous elite specs. 
 

However, I do believe going forward, there won’t be expansions and more so patches. Then in terms of elite specs, they’ll just add more utilities on our current elites and more weapons that can be used universally. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

29 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

This should’ve been done a long time ago. In my opinion, clones, illusions etc… should’ve been an elite spec and the actually Mesmer profession should’ve been hex-like conditions, denial and control focused. At the end of the day, what’s done is done and it doesn’t seem clones/illusions will be replaced or removed from previous elite specs. 
 

However, I do believe going forward, there won’t be expansions and more so patches. Then in terms of elite specs, they’ll just add more utilities on our current elites and more weapons that can be used universally. 

The reason why they did not do this is because if you look at gw1 things were still at a casting style gameplay rather then near instant gameplay in gw2, hex etc would be far too powerful being instant but far too weak if they were casted. That is why the introduced them into conditions like torment or confusion, originally confusion was suppose to be a mesmer only condition but know ANET promising anything that is class exclusive will eventually be brought to every class.

 

Confusion - Mesmer - perplexity runes - everyone accessed it

Torment - Necro 

Alacrity - Chrono - Rev now being able to surpass uptime - Mirage that has no business to do with alacrity now is able to pump it better.