Strikes CMs are just another nail in the coffin

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

4 hours ago, Vinceman.4572 said:

Yes, I did when raids where new and the population much higher than nowadays. That's a remarkable difference! Player numbers have drastically changed for challenging content in comparison to years ago.

Most of the people are not able (in terms of having the mechanical ability and the willing) to raid. 

It changed drastically because Raiders went full elite and toxic. Requirement to join Raid got more and more and closed the door for new people while old raiders got bored with it and created vacuum.

I quit raiding because I didn't want to be part of the elite club. Many times I got kicked and blocked for taking side of average Joe.

Before you judge me, I just want to make it clear, I made multiple sets of armor (7 sets?) and few cm's title. So, I am not so noob in Raid but people were so demanding even I had trouble finding group sometime.

I don't blame players only though, Anet is at fault as much. LFG needs some work, so same lvl of skill players can play together. When you mix it up, there will be always some sort of tension. And, no I don't have time to play on schedule time and dedicated half of my life playing lfg than game.

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/7/2021 at 7:52 AM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Perception doesn't just pop up at random, there is reason for it

Except for those situations where some people spread lies about content they didn't even attempt playing, which in turn gets repeated by some of the players when giving the reason "why you've never tried x?".

Anyways, I don't see the reason to complain about content we didn't even have a chance to play through. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:54 AM, Vinceman.4572 said:

Yes, I did when raids where new and the population much higher than nowadays. That's a remarkable difference! Player numbers have drastically changed for challenging content in comparison to years ago.

Most of the people are not able (in terms of having the mechanical ability and the willing) to raid. 

And we said on this very same forum this would happen...

[Firebeard.1746]

On 9/16/2021 at 5:28 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Except for those situations where some people spread lies about content they didn't even attempt playing, which in turn gets repeated by some of the players when giving the reason "why you've never tried x?".

Anyways, I don't see the reason to complain about content we didn't even have a chance to play through. Doesn't make sense to me.

Ah yes, people who disagree with you MUST be liars. It couldn't possibly be that they're playing at different times, with different sets of people or even on different sets of servers. Lemme guess, you believe any election that isn't won by your chosen candidate was rigged by fraud too? my opinions on raids have changed since our last exchanges, but they've only changed because my experiences with the community have changed. That being said, I still think strikes are the best way to go and raiders need to let go of their special snowflake expectations, raiding can still be toxic, and I still believe the skill floor required is much higher than many players are able to achieve (either due to lack of desire/time or even sheer disability). No other game mode lets you win legendary progress that quickly based on skill alone and skill isn't as highly rewarded in game modes with similar end-game rewards (armor).

Edited September 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Ah yes, people who disagree with you MUST be liars

That's not what I said, thanks.

And somehow I'm not interested in the slightest in your "let me guess" strawman that has nothing to do with me.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

That's not what I said, thanks.

Really?

 

Quote

Except for those situations where some people spread lies about content they didn't even attempt playing, which in turn gets repeated by some of the players when giving the reason "why you've never tried x?".

So you're not insinuating that players talking negatively about raids in this forum are liars who haven't tried the content? If not, I'm not really sure the point of this post, but okay.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Really?

Yes, really:

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

So you're not insinuating that players talking negatively about raids in this forum are liars who haven't tried the content? If not, I'm not really sure the point of this post, but okay.

No, not all players talking negatively about raids in this forum are liars. And that's definitely not what I've said. It was about some of the posts that put the whole community in a bad light based on mostly made up complaints that aren't the general rule. Posts that were mostly proven factually wrong. Context matters, so try following it instead of pretending I somehow said that "all people complaining about raids are liars", while this is nowhere near what I said.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, not all players talking negatively about raids in this forum are liars. And that's definitely not what I've said. It was about some of the posts that put the whole community in a bad light based on mostly made up complaints that aren't the general rule. Posts that were mostly proven factually wrong. Context matters, so try following it instead of pretending I somehow said that "all people complaining about raids are liars", while this is nowhere near what I said.

I did, and honestly, I'm not following. it's contradictory to act like most people aren't lying in these recent posts but also say what you did in response to community perception, as your older post appears to be insinuating that those few lying bad apples ruined community perception.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I did, and honestly, I'm not following. it's contradictory to act like most people aren't lying in these recent posts but also say what you did in response to community perception, as your older post appears to be insinuating that those few bad apples ruined community perception.

It's not contradictory. I guess you just see what you want to see. I even wrote in the initial posts -which was the answer to "Perception doesn't just pop up at random"- that it's "except for those situations where.." and then nowhere did I say anything about "everyone complaining about raids being a liar". If you don't see how you changed what I said to fit what you wanted me to say even despite my explanation, then not sure how else I can help you here. Compare the initial post within the context with your claim you made about what you think I've said -these are easly two different claims.

This doesn't mean that "everyone talking negatively about raids lies". This doesn't mean that "people can't dislike raids". This means that players are influenced by some of the repeated lies that scare them from participating in the content in the first place, while at the same time makes them feel like they know what they're talking about even while not trying to go through said content (because -for example- how could they, there's no way to start! -they know that because some people on the forum said it's hopeless to try, everyone wants 250li and if you don't have an active guild or a static, you literally are doomed to fail), which spreads the false information further and forms the broader perception that isn't exactly entirely correct.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's not contradictory. I guess you just see what you want to see. I even wrote in the initial posts -which was the answer to "Perception doesn't just pop up at random"- that it's "except for those situations where.." and then nowhere did I say anything about "everyone complaining about raids being a liar". If you don't see how you changed what I said to fit what you wanted me to say even despite me explaining what I've said, then not sure how else I can help you here. Compare the initial post within the context and then compare it with your claim you made about what I've said -these are easly two different sentences that say different things.

The statement you quoted is very general, so it's very easy to extrapolate that you're talking in generalities, especially when you discuss no other groups of people being negative in your OP. You need to be far more specific in your post if you're trying to get away from that. You can assume the worst about me, or you can be self-critical and learn how to communicate your point better.

From my experience, the reality behind perception is actually this: raiding is just like everything else in this game, it gets easier the more you do it. It's easier to find groups when you have KP. It's easier to get help when people know you because they've raided with you, because then they'll join your group when they see it in LFG. Getting to the point where you can raid consistently, even if you have the skill, basically requires help from a community. NA RA discord didn't give that to me when i initially tried. but a real, in-game person added me to their static, let me join midway and usually started late enough I could do the whole raid, and suddenly finding groups wasn't hard anymore. Also, I'm getting good enough that I can even occaisionally lead me own groups. I couldn't do that before. And me getting to this point, was sheer dumb luck: some random guildie was advertising this random person, who happened to actually be chill, and he taught me stuff. Unfortunately though, that guild that I ended up joining doesn't run together anymore, but I'm at a point I can still raid.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The statement you quoted is very general, so it's very easy to extrapolate

Well, then it's great that you've brought it to my attention and I was able to explain to you exactly what I've meant, right? What's the problem here?

2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You can assume the worst about me

I'm not the one "assuming" here.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, then it's great that you've brought it to my attention and I was able to explain to you exactly what I've meant, right? What's the problem here?

Maybe I just want people to understand my point of view if you're going to attack me. That's literally what that first paragraph was.

My second one was an attempt to go back to a useful part of this discussion, but apparently there's no value in that....

Edited September 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

Maybe I just want people to understand my point of view if you're going to attack me.

...when did I attack you? My initial post wasn't even directed at anything you wrote here. Pretty sure you're the one that jumped on me here, but k 🤷‍♂️

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

...when did I attack you? My initial post wasn't even directed at anything you wrote here. Pretty sure you're the one that jumped on me here, but k 🤷‍♂️

 

Quote

". If you don't see how you changed what I said to fit what you wanted me to say even despite my explanation, then not sure how else I can help you here. Compare the initial post within the context with your claim you made about what you think I've said -these are easly two different claims.

So i had to reference your OP to explain how I responded to your OP.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

So i had to reference your OP to explain how I responded to your OP.

But do you see how you've came out with a "false claim" (well, now it's clear that apparently it was just a misunderstanding needing some further explanation) about what I've said, so it was you who started attacking me here, not the other way around, right? You understand that perspective, where I answered to someone, after which you've responded completely -from my perspective and intended meaning of the post- changing what I said because I never said anything like "anyone disagreeing with me is a liar" or "people talking negatively about raids are liars"? Kind of feels it's not entirely honest to pretend now that you were being attacked here, but ok 😄

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But do you see how you've came out with a "false claim" (well, now it's clear that apparently it was just a misunderstanding needing some further explanation) about what I've said, so it was you who started attacking me here, not the other way around, right? You understand that perspective, where I answered to someone, after which you've responded completely -from my perspective and intended meaning of the post- changing what I said because I never said anything like "anyone disagreeing with me is a liar" or "people talking negatively about raids are liars"? Kind of feels it's not entirely honest to pretend now that you were being attacked here, but ok 😄

I'm still not really understanding at all really what your OP post was supposed to mean if all the people you were talking about didn't refer to all the people in the very general statement you quoted. Instead of acknowledging how I arrived where I did, you've chosen to call me a liar because of your poor communication skills and claim it was a personal attack.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm still not really understanding at all really what your OP post was supposed to mean if all the people you were talking about didn't refer to all the people in the very general statement you quoted. Instead of acknowledging how I arrived where I did, you've chosen to call me a liar because of your poor communication skills.

I explained that above, not sure what you can't understand here. I never said what you've initially claimed I did, that's all there is to it.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I explained that above, not sure what you can't understand here. I never said what you've initially claimed I did, that's all there is to it.

And that's exactly why I'm confused. What were you insinuating about public perception then? Just because you say something's different from what someone else says, doesn't make that person a liar. That's what I perceived from what you said, and you gave me no other reason to believe otherwise until your responses. if you communicate more effectively, and add more nuance to what you're saying, then perhaps I won't say something like that again. You could turn the most truthful person in the world into the darkest liar using that tactic: partially communicate what you mean, then call them a liar when they repeat back to you what they thing you're communicating. 

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And that's exactly why I'm confused. What were you insinuating about public perception then?

Again, I already explained that in the posts above. If my previous explanations didn't help you, I doubt any other will.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/98809-strikes-cms-are-just-another-nail-in-the-coffin/page/10/?tab=comments#comment-1464451

Bottom line stays the same, I never said anything like "anyone disagreeing with me is a liar" or "people talking negatively about raids are liars". Not sure what's the point of going with that on repeat now, but whatever suits you.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

5 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Ah yes, people who disagree with you MUST be liars. It couldn't possibly be that they're playing at different times, with different sets of people or even on different sets of servers.

People do love to embellish what someone else did wrong while acting as though they themselves did nothing wrong.  Have you ever seen reddit/forum threads about "Help I was banned for botting when I've never done it!" only  for a dev to come by and lay the smackdown with actual logs?  That's why the response to a post complaining about toxicity anywhere or claiming  some sort of negative outlook on a community should be 'chat logs  or gtfo'.

[Firebeard.1746]

15 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

People do love to embellish what someone else did wrong while acting as though they themselves did nothing wrong.  Have you ever seen reddit/forum threads about "Help I was banned for botting when I've never done it!" only  for a dev to come by and lay the smackdown with actual logs?  That's why the response to a post complaining about toxicity anywhere or claiming  some sort of negative outlook on a community should be 'chat logs  or gtfo'.

Maybe. But, I'm pretty sure chat logs were part of Anet's informed decision to turn raids into strike CMs. I'm sure they compared chat logs of strikes vs raids when they made their decision about the future of the game modes. As well as kicks and probably their own internal logs of peoples' performance.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Maybe. But, I'm pretty sure chat logs were part of Anet's informed decision to turn raids into strike CMs. I'm sure they compared chat logs of strikes vs raids when they made their decision about the future of the game modes. As well as kicks and probably their own internal logs of peoples' performance.

No, there's a much easier reason for that and it's the same reason why LW went from once every two weeks, to once a month, to ocne per 2-3 months, to oonce every 3-4 months.

Resources.

See, Raids cost a lot to produce, like, a lot a lot.  New bosses, new mechanics, new music, new assets, new locations and maps, new rewards, etc.  All strikes require is recycling a boss and giving it new mechanics and rewards for CMs.  Strikes are a lot less work and raids are 2-3 strikes in a single instance.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

No, there's a much easier reason for that and it's the same reason why LW went from once every two weeks, to once a month, to ocne per 2-3 months, to oonce every 3-4 months.

Resources.

See, Raids cost a lot to produce, like, a lot a lot.  New bosses, new mechanics, new music, new assets, new locations and maps, new rewards, etc.  All strikes require is recycling a boss and giving it new mechanics and rewards for CMs.  Strikes are a lot less work and raids are 2-3 strikes in a single instance.

But if raiders were the group spending the most on this game in the cash shop, etc, then this would be a risky move indeed. Not saying you're wrong, but if the community was even just economically powerful enough, not necessarily even large, this would be a massive gamble indeed.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

The problem is when you spend as a developer less money for content for an MMO . You can start a 'dead' spiral .

Because people quit when you spend less money for content then you get even less money from the players which let you even less money spend on content.

 

Getting out of this cycle is really hard and most of those MMOs end up on Gamgio or Gameforge as undead MMO for some years to be closed then.

 

This not the only way to end there but Gw2 is in this spiral for sure.

 

To be fair this not the only thing going on which are running wrong directions.

 

 

[Ayahuasca.1045]

On 9/16/2021 at 12:52 PM, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

It changed drastically because Raiders went full elite and toxic. Requirement to join Raid got more and more and closed the door for new people while old raiders got bored with it and created vacuum.

I quit raiding because I didn't want to be part of the elite club. Many times I got kicked and blocked for taking side of average Joe.

Before you judge me, I just want to make it clear, I made multiple sets of armor (7 sets?) and few cm's title. So, I am not so noob in Raid but people were so demanding even I had trouble finding group sometime.

I don't blame players only though, Anet is at fault as much. LFG needs some work, so same lvl of skill players can play together. When you mix it up, there will be always some sort of tension. And, no I don't have time to play on schedule time and dedicated half of my life playing lfg than game.

Raiding is active(some kind of)   lfg pug groups take 5~15 min to full. 

Also, if u have comm tag  and know the raid overall, u can open one.

Here's 2 tips:

if u know the raid, attempt to join any lfg

Be honest and polite

 

And always join know mechs (you're supposed to know them)

 

 

As a pug comm, i Always open raids with  know mechs (cuz 250li doesn't mean u know a boss well)

I welcome everyone, I rarely kick ppl,

and i try to encourage them after a wipe.

 

Ofc and I suffered the same at the start.

I continued, because i liked raiding  and it's fun with a good pug

 

Tldr: If u (still) like raiding try joining lfgs and be honest. U fail? Try again. Again fail?Attempt to open grp.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Ayahuasca.1045