Strikes CMs are just another nail in the coffin

[artharon.9276]

1 hour ago, CasualElitist.8795 said:

 

Wait, have you never done T4+cms fractals? Because they are exactly like raids - asking for kp, using dps meters and kicking people when they are underperforming. Fun and patient people? You can meet them in raids. Toxic people? You can meet them in fractals too, even more often than in raids. Same with strike missions. Just because you personally did not encounter them in any other content, it doesn't mean they don't exist. And just because you personally met some toxicity in raids (if you even raided and not just based your opinion on some reddit threads crying that raids are toxic and unaccessible to casuals), doesn't mean that most of raid playerbase is like that because it's not.

 

Toxicity and unnaccessibility of raids is a myth, and everyone who put the smallest effort to actually try them out, so basically getting exotic gear with proper stats, good build and joined any raid training discord, can tell you this.

 

Someone here earlier compared raid selling to drug dealing? It's more like a free market, you have a demand so you supply. You have people who can't be bothered to spend few hours per week actively playing and getting LI for legendary armor, but are willing to pay someone to carry them? Well then you also have people who will do that for you, for a price adequate to their experience and time needed to be spent on it. It's like, idk, some people grow carrots in their garden and some go buy them from the store. So I am not really sure how raid sellers are creating toxcity and elitism? They are not the ones kicking you from pugs when you don't pull your weight. And in case you don't know, it's not "raid" sellers, it's just sellers, as they sell every possible content in the game - dmrs, strikes, fractals, raids, story achievements, collections, skyscale material farming, wvw reward tracks....anything you can possibly imagine is sellable. People think it's only raid sellers because they usually advertise in raid lfg. But with raids gone, they will still be out there, selling other content. Noone is forced to buy so this whole hate on sellers is just hilarious.

No, never really had any of these issues, in t4's and their cms. yeah you can find a dingus here and there, but not as often as raiding.

Edited July 30, 2021 by artharon.9276

[Krzysztof.5973]

9 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Nah, ANet should do a complete 180.

Make all EoD world bosses and meta events require organization on a level such as Triple Trouble or the original Chak Gerrent
Strikes are raid difficulty by default.  CMs are as difficult as Dhuum, Samarog, and Deimos CM.
Fishing isn't afk and requires intense reflexes to hit the mark just right and catch a fish.
Skiffs can be sank by NPC enemies  if left unattended.
Fractals have a release cadence that is followed.  Each new one gets a new CM.
Raids come back as part of the story.

If you don't like it, there's plenty of content that's been released over the years that you could play and enjoy.

Content that actually requires from you to play the game? Where do I sign up?

[Astralporing.1957]

On 7/29/2021 at 12:01 PM, yukarishura.4790 said:

That being said, thx for ignoring a large part of the playerbase who expect a raid for ages. But it's ok we get fishing...

Perhaps because that is not a "large" part of the playerbase, but (according to Anet) a group of players so small Anet was doubting whether they should even bother to spend resources on them.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For all we know, they might be on a similar level of gameplay to current raids, except you get thrown right into the boss encounter. I don't see how that's a problem for some people. Is it because it's not called "raids"?

@yukarishura.4790 ?

 

It's a problem for some because the current strikes are really lackluster.  There's no real requirement for specific skills as CC is covered by a special action key and those who can perform at raid level tend to just demolish the bosses super quick.  People are concerned that EoD strikes are going to be super simple like Shiverpeaks pass or have an impossible to skip 10 minute events like Cold War and bosses where failing the mechanics doesn't matter.  There's also a concern that Strike CMs may be no more difficult than the easiest raid encounters.

[Fangoth.4503]

10 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

Then are not aware what you are playing mate. they can end elitism by simply remove dps meters, banning any kind of 3rd party measurement addons, removing any ability to prove that you successfully completed an instance once, outlaw raid selling, quit bringing in more and more powercreep by orphaning the core classes to promote their elite specs and lastly, keeping raiding rewards at bare minimum.

 

Thanks for submitting the worst idea ever 🙃 removing the rare tool player have to improve will not improve the player quality, it will instead drop it by a lot. Assuming no illigal DPS metter appear, DPS will go down by a lot after a couple of balance update and makes boss harder and harder, only statics would survive it.
The argument "makes all player as bad as me so i can raid" isn't a good way to go, if you cannot/don't want to learn that content just don't play it.
 

10 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

Fractals and the rest of the content don't really suffer these issues. People are fun, patient and respectful, I just love it. But when it comes to raiding... screams, stress, scoldings, fights, sarcasm, stupid meta arguments, firing people just because they failed to do x thing once or twice when the group has absolute power and ability to carry that person.

if you're doing t4 or less yeah maybe go in CMs and it's gonna be similar to raids

 

11 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

These things never directed to me, but I had to witness this nonsense almost every time, dude if I wanted to have that stress, I'd go play a non casual friendly game not an easy game like gw2. 

GW2 is far from being casual friendly, it's all built on how well you can craft a build/choose gear/handle a rotation with a fast combat pace, if you're looking for a casual friendly game you'll probably better off going for a game having GCD a game with close to no stat choice as they don't vary much, little to no choice toward your spec traits so yeah wow does a better job for casuals.

 

11 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

This is why I liked EoD offered no new raids so far and showed signs of improving strikes instead. Back to the time when the grass was greener. But they probably will, because meta nerds demand it. 

Don't dream too much if strikes and strikes cms are actually challenging as announced people will ask for LI or strike KP.
But i do welcome the idea of having the same boss with added mech it can actually help players willing to learn to improve by having an increased difficulty and still not be overwhelmed as you already know the core fight. I just hope it's not gonna be just another cookie clicker

 

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For all we know, they might be on a similar level of gameplay to current raids, except you get thrown right into the boss encounter. I don't see how that's a problem for some people. Is it because it's not called "raids"?

@yukarishura.4790 ?

 

raid have CM, if strike CM are raid what is raid CMs?

 

10 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Actually it is a very intelligent decision. Making a new expansion takes work. Making a raid takes work and time. Instead of making a half-***** raid, they seem to be reusing bosses that we find in the open world in strikes and adding new mechanics. This saves them from spending time on creating additional assets and they can actually work on the encounter itself. 

 

 I do not expect them to work on a raid with all the open world maps and encounters they have to design. Maybe a raid can come later where they can devote the time it needs. 

The idea of having same boss with added mechs is definitively a good one, raid bosses are hard on start as they are overwhelming if now you can start by learnin half the boss mech and then add the other half it should makes it easier to get going. it also makes dev life easier indeed.
The main issue is: will strike really be as difficult as hardest normal raids, and will strike offer some content as difficult as raid CMs? also raids bring 3-4 encounter, will strike offer as much or more than that? or will we be struck with 5 encounter for the whole xpac.
Main issue is the fact that the announce is raising more question than anything else. It does remind me of diablo immortal to some extent, everyone was annoyed as diablo become a phone game when they could have just solved the issue by just saying "we'll bring that game on phone but don't worry it doesn't mean that the whole franchise go to mobile, we're still planning to devellop diablo on computer"
If anet come by and say something like "we'd like to move raids to strikes to offer more accessible encouter for beginners but do not worries we still want to offer challenges as challenging as raid and raid CM. the idea behind moving raid to strikes is to first make encounters unique to the instance and offer player the opportunity to replay only the encounter they enjoy or just be able to go for a single boss during the 15min spare time rather than going for a full wing. We also want to make that change more helpfull for newer players by offering them the opportunity to progress through difficulty rather than having to rediscover a full encounter whenever they desire to move up, to do so we're going to offer encounters that have an increased amount of mechanics when fought in their challenge mode!"
But imo it would be better to have more than just 2 levels of difficulty fractals are quite good in that way and i think they probably get good result by doing bosses with beginner/normal/difficult/CM.

 

 

[Linken.6345]

38 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

 

Thanks for submitting the worst idea ever 🙃 removing the rare tool player have to improve will not improve the player quality, it will instead drop it by a lot. Assuming no illigal DPS metter appear, DPS will go down by a lot after a couple of balance update and makes boss harder and harder, only statics would survive it.
The argument "makes all player as bad as me so i can raid" isn't a good way to go, if you cannot/don't want to learn that content just don't play it.
 

if you're doing t4 or less yeah maybe go in CMs and it's gonna be similar to raids

 

GW2 is far from being casual friendly, it's all built on how well you can craft a build/choose gear/handle a rotation with a fast combat pace, if you're looking for a casual friendly game you'll probably better off going for a game having GCD a game with close to no stat choice as they don't vary much, little to no choice toward your spec traits so yeah wow does a better job for casuals.

 

Don't dream too much if strikes and strikes cms are actually challenging as announced people will ask for LI or strike KP.
But i do welcome the idea of having the same boss with added mech it can actually help players willing to learn to improve by having an increased difficulty and still not be overwhelmed as you already know the core fight. I just hope it's not gonna be just another cookie clicker

 

raid have CM, if strike CM are raid what is raid CMs?

 

The idea of having same boss with added mechs is definitively a good one, raid bosses are hard on start as they are overwhelming if now you can start by learnin half the boss mech and then add the other half it should makes it easier to get going. it also makes dev life easier indeed.
The main issue is: will strike really be as difficult as hardest normal raids, and will strike offer some content as difficult as raid CMs? also raids bring 3-4 encounter, will strike offer as much or more than that? or will we be struck with 5 encounter for the whole xpac.
Main issue is the fact that the announce is raising more question than anything else. It does remind me of diablo immortal to some extent, everyone was annoyed as diablo become a phone game when they could have just solved the issue by just saying "we'll bring that game on phone but don't worry it doesn't mean that the whole franchise go to mobile, we're still planning to devellop diablo on computer"
If anet come by and say something like "we'd like to move raids to strikes to offer more accessible encouter for beginners but do not worries we still want to offer challenges as challenging as raid and raid CM. the idea behind moving raid to strikes is to first make encounters unique to the instance and offer player the opportunity to replay only the encounter they enjoy or just be able to go for a single boss during the 15min spare time rather than going for a full wing. We also want to make that change more helpfull for newer players by offering them the opportunity to progress through difficulty rather than having to rediscover a full encounter whenever they desire to move up, to do so we're going to offer encounters that have an increased amount of mechanics when fought in their challenge mode!"
But imo it would be better to have more than just 2 levels of difficulty fractals are quite good in that way and i think they probably get good result by doing bosses with beginner/normal/difficult/CM.

 

 

 

Who is to say it will only be 1 cm on each strike it could be like forging steel and dragon response missions with multiple cms per boss that players can pick and chose from or take all.

[Fangoth.4503]

12 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

keeping raiding rewards at bare minimum.

Imagine thinking raid is good reward 🙃
-Raid: 25 encounter 2 gold on each except 6/7 that gives 4gold and random exotic loot so at the end you get about 100 gold from a FC for a descent week.
(https://fast.farming-community.eu/instances/raids)

-Fractals: you get iirc 30-40 gold for CM + daily so about 210 gold for a week

-Farm train: there is a lot of map meta you can do for ~30g/h so 5040g/week if you do only that for a week
(https://fast.farming-community.eu/open-world/farmtrain)

-Strike: Farming kodans strike 1.2791g/1min, so about 12893g/week
(https://fast.farming-community.eu/instances/strikes)

but maybe you prefer all of them per hour:
-raid FC (~3h with good group): 33g/h
-fractal CM+T4 (~1h with good group): 30-40g/h
-farm train: ~30g/h (based on fast time but most likely much better is you manage to get a good 150people in same map)
-Kodan strike (~1min for good group, 30-40s to kill 20-30sec to set next instance): ~76g/h

so at the end of the day raid and fractals are the same as most openworld farm if you have a descent group but for the majority of player that just lfg or do 4h+ FC you're better off just going in drizzlewood if you want coins

Edited July 31, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Fangoth.4503]

44 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

Who is to say it will only be 1 cm on each strike it could be like forging steel and dragon response missions with multiple cms per boss that players can pick and chose from or take all.

well wouldn't be any better imo, triggering more adds/making him with more hp/deal more damage to a single encounter is counterproductive.
the fact to have added mechs is much more interesting imo.
I'd take VG as example:

easy VG: boss + blue teleports (only blue add on split)
reward: exotic item

normal VG: boss + blue teleports + seekers (blue + red on split)
reward: exotic item + 2 gold

hard VG: boss + blue teleports + seekers + green (all 3 on split) (current VG)
reward: exotic item + 2 gold + LI + KP + special item

CM: no downstate or whatever new mech added. (an echo? 😈)
reward: similar to current CMs

ofc if you loot the hard vg you don't get reward by doing easy/normal one. but if you do normal VG then go to easy one you get 2gold but no exotic (you already got it from easy)

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Linken.6345]

15 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

well wouldn't be any better imo, triggering more adds/making him with more hp/deal more damage to a single encounter is counterproductive.
the fact to have added mechs is much more interesting imo.
I'd take VG as example:

easy VG: boss + blue teleports (only blue add on split)
reward: exotic item

normal VG: boss + blue teleports + seekers (blue + red on split)
reward: exotic item + 2 gold

hard VG: boss + blue teleports + seekers + green (all 3 on split) (current VG)
reward: exotic item + 2 gold + LI + KP + special item

CM: no downstate or whatever new mech added. (an echo? 😈)
reward: similar to current CMs

ofc if you loot the hard vg you don't get reward by doing easy/normal one. but if you do normal VG then go to easy one you get 2gold but no exotic (you already got it from easy)

 

Was not talking about those encounters effect specifcaly more that they done multiple kinds cms per instances before.

[Fangoth.4503]

19 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Was not talking about those encounters effect specifcaly more that they done multiple kinds cms per instances before.

yeah i guess would be fine to have all extra mechs associated to different CMs and be able to pick the one you want to add and get extra reward when you have more CM on.
But in that case CM (weekly?) reward should be just a one time reward else its gonna end up having CMs done once but forgotten asap

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

yeah i guess would be fine to have all extra mechs associated to different CMs and be able to pick the one you want to add and get extra reward when you have more CM on.
But in that case CM (weekly?) reward should be just a one time reward else its gonna end up having CMs done once but forgotten asap

 

Well strikes are like fractals and reset daily so I would guess that would continue.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Linken.6345

[Fangoth.4503]

normal strike, but the currend CMs are once for achievement then no interest at all of doing them. and who sain in his mind would activate cms if the only thing they get out of it is having slower killtime

[Linken.6345]

17 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

normal strike, but the currend CMs are once for achievement then no interest at all of doing them. and who sain in his mind would activate cms if the only thing they get out of it is having slower killtime

 

You totaly missed where they said they were rewamping the rewards did you?

 

Edit 

Listen bettwen 38:55-39:35

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Linken.6345

[Fangoth.4503]

no but as always they stay vague and it could mean anything

 

[Captain Kuro.8937]

10 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

Imagine thinking raid is good reward 🙃
-Raid: 25 encounter 2 gold on each except 6/7 that gives 4gold and random exotic loot so at the end you get about 100 gold from a FC for a descent week.
(https://fast.farming-community.eu/instances/raids)

-Fractals: you get iirc 30-40 gold for CM + daily so about 210 gold for a week

-Farm train: there is a lot of map meta you can do for ~30g/h so 5040g/week if you do only that for a week
(https://fast.farming-community.eu/open-world/farmtrain)

-Strike: Farming kodans strike 1.2791g/1min, so about 12893g/week
(https://fast.farming-community.eu/instances/strikes)

but maybe you prefer all of them per hour:
-raid FC (~3h with good group): 33g/h
-fractal CM+T4 (~1h with good group): 30-40g/h
-farm train: ~30g/h (based on fast time but most likely much better is you manage to get a good 150people in same map)
-Kodan strike (~1min for good group, 30-40s to kill 20-30sec to set next instance): ~76g/h

so at the end of the day raid and fractals are the same as most openworld farm if you have a descent group but for the majority of player that just lfg or do 4h+ FC you're better off just going in drizzlewood if you want coins

 

The problem i your calculation is , "if" the group is good .

The majority don't hit the 10k benchmark .

 

If Raids reward you with 100 gold for 1days works , it leaves 6 more days to hop on  those Fractal/Farm  trains  too .

I assure you that after 1 week , the rewards that are sold in the TP , wont plummet the market and you will get less rewards afterwards  , while waiting for a new living episode map  😛

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Fangoth.4503]

33 minutes ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

 

The problem i your calculation is , "if" the group is good .

The majority don't hit the 10k benchmark .

 

Well it's not a problem, it shows that a good group clearing raid barely makes the same (if not less as i don't take in account food+utilitie) as openworld rewards. If your goal is to make money you're way better off doing fractal and drizzlewood or any other openworld farm than going in raid. having a descent group just makes you earn the same for doing the content you're enjoying, nothing gamebreaking.
Ascended could have been an argument not so long ago but it's out of the window since they became worthless since last patch 😜
 

 

42 minutes ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

If Raids reward you with 100 gold for 1days works , it leaves 6 more days to hop on  those Fractal/Farm  trains  too .

I assure you that after 1 week , the rewards that are sold in the TP , wont plummet the market and you will get less rewards afterwards  , while waiting for a new living episode map  😛

Indeed, I usually FC in 3-3.5h and still my main revenu comes from fractal and strikes, not so much openworld but it's due to personal fear of going away from aerodrome/EotN/mistlocks

[Captain Kuro.8937]

7 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

Well it's not a problem, it shows that a good group clearing raid barely makes the same (if not less as i don't take in account food+utilitie) as openworld rewards. If your goal is to make money you're way better off doing fractal and drizzlewood or any other openworld farm than going in raid. having a descent group just makes you earn the same for doing the content you're enjoying, nothing gamebreaking.
Ascended could have been an argument not so long ago but it's out of the window since they became worthless since last patch 😜
 

 

Indeed, I usually FC in 3-3.5h and still my main revenu comes from fractal and strikes, not so much openworld but it's due to personal fear of going away from aerodrome/EotN/mistlocks

 

Then lets make Raids a daily occurrence  , while giving the option for PvE players to play once per week some Open World Boss  and unlock the sexy Raid Legendary skin .

 

Both worlds , will be happy

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Fangoth.4503]

31 minutes ago, Captain Kuro.8937 said:

 

Then lets make Raids a daily occurrence  , while giving the option for PvE players to play once per week some Open World Boss  and unlock the sexy Raid Legendary skin .

 

Both worlds , will be happy

 

 

you already can with 7 account 🙃

[Katary.7096]

19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Perhaps because that is not a "large" part of the playerbase, but (according to Anet) a group of players so small Anet was doubting whether they should even bother to spend resources on them.

The likely question they asked themselves probably wasn't "Should we even make any content for raid players in EoD?" but instead "How far are we going to downsize the resources we use to make content for raiders (since the group is so small)?"

[Astralporing.1957]

35 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

The likely question they asked themselves probably wasn't "Should we even make any content for raid players in EoD?" but instead "How far are we going to downsize the resources we use to make content for raiders (since the group is so small)?"

Either that, or "how we can change the content so it would appeal to more players, without current raiders throwing a riot". And the obvious answer is they can't - not for raids. They can only do that while "rebranding" the content, because there's no preconceptions yet. And with strikes ranging from braindead easy to lower raid level hard, and with no CMs for them yet, they can do whatever they want really.

 

Or, possibly, they thought about both of those things at the same time.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Katary.7096]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Either that, or "how we can change the content so it would appeal to more players, without current raiders throwing a riot". And the obvious answer is they can't - not for raids. They can only do that while "rebranding" the content, because there's no preconceptions yet. And with strikes ranging from braindead easy to lower raid level hard, and with no CMs for them yet, they can do whatever they want really.

Yep. I wonder if they will be building the story encounters first and then adjust them to fit the Strike Mission and CM Strike Mission versions or the other way around.

[HotDelirium.7984]

If this FINALLY means players have to jump on and off the ice block at the right time during Shiverpeak Pass then I'm down.

Having raid mechanics that you can just ignore are very pointless.

[Sigerk.2897]

I used to pug in this game when it was only dungeon and agony resist 5 would get you a long way. There were always unfriendly/impatient ppl. It comes with the territory. For a while I'd just put up with it. You'd queue up, hope for the best, and if not, there's always another run. Being socially anxious, forming an LFG of my own took a while. But when I did, and I'd list chill run, or no skip, my interactions with pugs massively improved. There's still a barrier for doing that today, depending on how I feel. But I know that if I want to pug with strangers who don't go off on ppl for X reasons, I can just make my own and use the description feauture as a way to filter for nicer people. 

I played ESO for a bit and had the same reservations with pugging until I met a nice guild. With them I started trials (raids), with ppl I got to know and befriended. And suddenly I had a group of ppl who very much wanted to do harder content like hard modes and veteran trials and the like, minus the ''elitist'' mentality. 

So coming back to GW2, I took what I learned there, getting a group of like minded ppl and working our way towards raiding. We are all eager to get started and when we are ready to go and try them, we know that we won't have any of that hassle that comes with pugging. We can try, and fail and try again at our terms, without people throwing tantrums etc. 

So my takeway is that if you really think raids are populated by ''elitists'', why not make your own LFG where you specify your terms and conditions, or better yet, find a few like-minded people and form a regular group? Make a guild and recruit ppl. Again, it's your group, so you can filter as much as you want, however you want, until you have people you feel comfortable with. 

If I have to choose between raiding now and risk less than pleasant encounters because of grouping with strangers, or raid later and have fun with people I know and like, I will always choose the latter. Pugging is a choice, whether some ppl want to admit it or not. 

 

[Fangoth.4503]

On 7/31/2021 at 5:38 PM, Katary.7096 said:

The likely question they asked themselves probably wasn't "Should we even make any content for raid players in EoD?" but instead "How far are we going to downsize the resources we use to make content for raiders (since the group is so small)?"

well you cannot downsize 0 which is their current ressources used for raid

 

On 7/31/2021 at 6:13 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Either that, or "how we can change the content so it would appeal to more players, without current raiders throwing a riot". And the obvious answer is they can't - not for raids. They can only do that while "rebranding" the content, because there's no preconceptions yet. And with strikes ranging from braindead easy to lower raid level hard, and with no CMs for them yet, they can do whatever they want really.

 

Or, possibly, they thought about both of those things at the same time.

They can with raid and pretty easily, just make the same instance with reduced difficulty to match personal story standard and let the player choose whether they want play the lore instance or the gameplay one. it's not hard they just have to remove 2 digit on boss skills damage and hp once they've coded the raid on

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Astralporing.1957]

47 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

They can with raid and pretty easily, just make the same instance with reduced difficulty to match personal story standard and let the player choose whether they want play the lore instance or the gameplay one. it's not hard they just have to remove 2 digit on boss skills damage and hp once they've coded the raid on

I said "without current raiders throwing a riot". If you haven't noticed, pushing for any kind of version of easy mode raids that would actually let them survive, and not die immediately due to lack of interest, was always met with an immense and emotional backlash from raid community. And consequently any version of easy mode that the current raiders would have been okay with would not have increased raid availability by any significant margin.

 

Raiders are simply too protective about their mode to allow for big enough changes. So, the only solution was to let go of raids completely and start under a new brand that is not yet so locked in player mentality.

 

Notice, btw, that the changes might end up even bigger than the ones that would have been introduced with easy mode raids, because there's absolutely no standarts for Strike CMs yet.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Astralporing.1957