Strikes CMs are just another nail in the coffin

[Fangoth.4503]

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I said "without current raiders throwing a riot". If you haven't noticed, pushing for any kind of version of easy mode raids that would actually let them survive, and not die immediately due to lack of interest, was always met with an immense and emotional backlash from raid community. And consequently any version of easy mode that the current raiders would have been okay with would not have increased raid availability by any significant margin.

 

Raiders are simply too protective about their mode to allow for big enough changes. So, the only solution was to let go of raids completely and start under a new brand that is not yet so locked in player mentality.

 

Notice, btw, that the changes might end up even bigger than the ones that would have been introduced with easy mode raids, because there's absolutely no standarts for Strike CMs yet.

A riot for what lol, don't be silly no one would remotly care if there is a cairn with no mech granting 20silver to kill it. What people are agains't is having raid made easier and the LI/KP being rewarded for it, if you adapt the reward then it's fine.
I'd take any day that over no content 🙃

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I said "without current raiders throwing a riot". If you haven't noticed, pushing for any kind of version of easy mode raids that would actually let them survive, and not die immediately due to lack of interest, was always met with an immense and emotional backlash from raid community. And consequently any version of easy mode that the current raiders would have been okay with would not have increased raid availability by any significant margin.

 

Raiders are simply too protective about their mode to allow for big enough changes. So, the only solution was to let go of raids completely and start under a new brand that is not yet so locked in player mentality.

 

Notice, btw, that the changes might end up even bigger than the ones that would have been introduced with easy mode raids, because there's absolutely no standarts for Strike CMs yet.

Astral is that really how you view the easymode debates?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I said "without current raiders throwing a riot". If you haven't noticed, pushing for any kind of version of easy mode raids that would actually let them survive, and not die immediately due to lack of interest, was always met with an immense and emotional backlash from raid community. And consequently any version of easy mode that the current raiders would have been okay with would not have increased raid availability by any significant margin.

 

Raiders are simply too protective about their mode to allow for big enough changes. So, the only solution was to let go of raids completely and start under a new brand that is not yet so locked in player mentality.

 

Notice, btw, that the changes might end up even bigger than the ones that would have been introduced with easy mode raids, because there's absolutely no standarts for Strike CMs yet.

Its not not that raiders are over protective, they do not want little scrap of content they get to be wasted on chasing the generally awful playerbase which is 100% anets fault for being so bad. Twisted marionette showed how awful players are now compared to 7 years ago. This is from years of promoting boring loot pinatas called world bosses. It must be really telling this summer had 2 world boss rushes, where you click you gemstore teleporter and spam 1 until loot show up and repeat. Its sad that anet thinks the ove experience is only this, not meta events, dungeons or strikes. Guess its nice we got 1 fractal event.

So what happened when they made easy mode raids (strikes), the casuals did not even do those. They even made posts on the forum that they could not do their meta achievement without stepping foot in strike and demanded it be changed. They did not even need to kill the encounter, they just had to do some mechanics (which for most players, is harder than killing it). 

I was hoping with the return of the old blood, we would see a change on how anet pushes this community to be better like pre hot, not a bunch of cows chewing cud post pof. 

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I said "without current raiders throwing a riot". If you haven't noticed, pushing for any kind of version of easy mode raids that would actually let them survive, and not die immediately due to lack of interest, was always met with an immense and emotional backlash from raid community.

No, it wasn't. Funny how you're trying to present partial information out of context to just blame other people and pretend nobody wants change just because some disagree with your take on the matter. A change that's not exactly the same you'd like to see doesn't suddenly stop being a change. And yet here you are, trying to paint different variations of easy modes that were proposed by others as "raiders throwing a riot" and "immense and emotional backlash" 🙄 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

A riot for what lol, don't be silly no one would remotly care if there is a cairn with no mech granting 20silver to kill it. What people are agains't is having raid made easier and the LI/KP being rewarded for it, if you adapt the reward then it's fine.
I'd take any day that over no content 🙃

Exactly, he's just intentionally trying to bend/hide the facts to show anyone who doesn't agree with his exact proposal is somehow rioting or blocking any change at all.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Astral is that really how you view the easymode debates?

Yes. Many raiders just don't want easy mode no matter what. Others would not mind it that much, but only as a support to normal raids themselves, never something that might have interested players on its own (see the comment just below mine about "20 silvers" for a kill? Do you not think that this reward level would ensure that this mode would end up pretty much empty, and not draw any more players than aren't already interested in raids?)

 

Raiders would accept easy mode only as a training mode with no rewards to speak of. Because they'd want players to leave that easy mode and move to the hard one as fast as possible. Which of course means that easy mode would be only for players already intrested in normal mode - so, would not make any significant impact on population at all. After all, those that truly want to raid, can already do that. Those that cannot are those that simply are not compatible with the content that normal mode is (and adding easy mode would not change that).

[yann.1946]

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Many raiders just don't want easy mode no matter what.

That is pretty false their where auite a few people that said it would not draw enough people/serve the wanted function however.

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Others would not mind it that much, but only as a support to normal raids themselves, never something that might have interested players on its own (see the comment just below mine about "20 silvers" for a kill? Do you not think that this reward level would ensure that this mode would end up pretty much empty, and not draw any more players than aren't already interested in raids?)

The people wanting easymode could not even agree to zhqt purpose it should serve

 

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Raiders would accept easy mode only as a training mode with no rewards to speak of. Because they'd want players to leave that easy mode and move to the hard one as fast as possible.

No, a few sure. But most people talking about rewards where discussing in the context of how to much loot could harm the normal mode raids.

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which of course means that easy mode would be only for players already intrested in normal mode - so, would not make any significant impact on population at all. After all, those that truly want to raid, can already do that. Those that cannot are those that simply are not compatible with the content that normal mode is (and adding easy mode would not change that).

Or for you know the people who wanted to experience the story once.

 

I am really curious whether you are acting in this bad faith because you mostly remember the kitten people, or your actually purposely misinforming people to show you where right or something.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

Honestly if they are tuned appropriately, strike CMs could be a really positive change for people who currently enjoy raid content. Primarily because they will actually be new, and it sounds like relatively frequent updates, considering they can re-use story bosses, instances, etc. 

 

Yes it is a sacrifice to not have the full wing environment, in between boss events, etc. But that sacrifice is worth it IMO if we get 5-10 encounters per year as opposed to 1 wing every 1-2 years. (or never again) They said EoD is launching with 5 strike encounters and they'll launch the CMs afterwards. 

 

This also should fill the 'easy mode' raids experience IMO as well, as you have the solo story instance, the regular strike mode difficulty, and the CM strike mode difficulty all sharing the same story/boss/instance, etc. A person who doesn't do the CMs will miss out on nothing in regards to story/lore. 

 

It sounds like they are also aware that strikes desperately need reward re-structuring, a hub such as the L.A. Aerodrome, etc

Edited August 2, 2021 by ButterPeanut.9746

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

8 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

That is pretty false their where auite a few people that said it would not draw enough people/serve the wanted function however.

The people wanting easymode could not even agree to zhqt purpose it should serve

 

No, a few sure. But most people talking about rewards where discussing in the context of how to much loot could harm the normal mode raids.

Or for you know the people who wanted to experience the story once.

 

I am really curious whether you are acting in this bad faith because you mostly remember the kitten people, or your actually purposely misinforming people to show you where right or something.

How too much loot could harm the normal mode raids ?

It will drive the causal away ?:P

Edited August 2, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[ButterPeanut.9746]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I said "without current raiders throwing a riot". If you haven't noticed, pushing for any kind of version of easy mode raids that would actually let them survive, and not die immediately due to lack of interest, was always met with an immense and emotional backlash from raid community.

Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant in recent history, but this feels like a very 2016-2017 argument to me. I haven't heard a raider complain about an easy mode difficulty in a very long time, at least from a philosophical perspective. To be honest they basically did like 25% of the work of an "easy mode" just with class balance alone, but that isn't what people really mean when they want easy mode.

 

Either way, I think strikes solve this problem beautifully, as long as at least a subset of the strike CMs are challenging. Maybe some are on a Cairn/MO/Samarog level, maybe a few on the Largos/Q1 level, and maybe a few on the raid CM levels. As long as there is some variety in that difficulty in the Strike CMs, I think it will be fine. Worst case scenario here would be the strike CMs all being like MO regular mode difficulty. Additionally, they also are story instances for solo players, and regular mode strikes, so everyone wins. You don't miss out on any lore/story by not doing Strike CMs in that case. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

That is pretty false their where auite a few people that said it would not draw enough people/serve the wanted function however.

Yes, there's that. Notice, though, that there's a disjoint in what that function should be. Raiders for the most part think that the purpose should be "raise the population in normal raids". There's also a few that allow for "story mode" (but with the assumption that it's something that is done purely for story, with no rewards - so, probably no more than once-twice).

 

Second option obviously cannot raise participation in raids. It's just not something people would come back to, and we don't have enough new players influx to constantly fuel that content with new entrants. First option i have already commented on - obviously, i fully agree with those raiders that think it would not help raid population at all.

 

Notice, though that the main disjunct lies in the third option. Namely, in making an easy mode worth repeating, which would not be treated as just a training/transitional/one time only mode but as a long-term investment content for practicallya  separate group of players. I'm yet to see a raider that would agree with that approach, but i have seen many that just pretend they don't understand how it is supposed to be different than the first example (or, perhaps, they genuinely don't understand how it would be different)

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

The people wanting easymode could not even agree to zhqt purpose it should serve

That is again true.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

No, a few sure. But most people talking about rewards where discussing in the context of how to much loot could harm the normal mode raids.

Yes. And the general consensus among raiders is that any amount of loot that would make the content worth returning to would be too much.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Or for you know the people who wanted to experience the story once.

Yes. Once. Somehow i doubt a content even its proposents do not want to visit more than once-twice has a future.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I am really curious whether you are acting in this bad faith because you mostly remember the kitten people, or your actually purposely misinforming people to show you where right or something.

Neither. Because i am not acting in bad faith at all. And i am not misinforming anyone.

 

Notice, btw, that at this point i no longer care about easy mode at all. It's not my problem that raids got abandoned after all. I got what i wanted out of it long ago. I am simply completely not surprised by the direction Anet went with. And the few people in this thread that seem so outraged by it? Well, they might all look at their own reactions to any suggestions to reform raids that were being thrown out throughout the years.

 

2 minutes ago, ButterPeanut.9746 said:

Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant in recent history, but this feels like a very 2016-2017 argument to me. I haven't heard a raider complain about an easy mode difficulty in a very long time, at least from a philosophical perspective.

There's been multiple such threads this year alone. You were just not paying attention. And yes, some of those people are present in this very thread.

[Fangoth.4503]

 

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Many raiders just don't want easy mode no matter what. Others would not mind it that much, but only as a support to normal raids themselves, never something that might have interested players on its own (see the comment just below mine about "20 silvers" for a kill? Do you not think that this reward level would ensure that this mode would end up pretty much empty, and not draw any more players than aren't already interested in raids?)

like any other story instance yeah but if you want 100% of the playerbase capable of doing it you cannot give too high reward else you can harm the game economy

 

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Raiders would accept easy mode only as a training mode with no rewards to speak of. Because they'd want players to leave that easy mode and move to the hard one as fast as possible. Which of course means that easy mode would be only for players already intrested in normal mode - so, would not make any significant impact on population at all. After all, those that truly want to raid, can already do that. Those that cannot are those that simply are not compatible with the content that normal mode is (and adding easy mode would not change that).

if easy mode is for lore purpose hell no i don't expect people to climb up, just let them auto attack everything and enjoy the story and meanwhile i can fight the actual encounter.

 

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm yet to see a raider that would agree with that approach

maybe read again then:

On 7/31/2021 at 3:25 AM, Fangoth.4503 said:

well wouldn't be any better imo, triggering more adds/making him with more hp/deal more damage to a single encounter is counterproductive.
the fact to have added mechs is much more interesting imo.
I'd take VG as example:

easy VG: boss + blue teleports (only blue add on split)
reward: exotic item

normal VG: boss + blue teleports + seekers (blue + red on split)
reward: exotic item + 2 gold

hard VG: boss + blue teleports + seekers + green (all 3 on split) (current VG)
reward: exotic item + 2 gold + LI + KP + special item

CM: no downstate or whatever new mech added. (an echo? 😈)
reward: similar to current CMs

ofc if you loot the hard vg you don't get reward by doing easy/normal one. but if you do normal VG then go to easy one you get 2gold but no exotic (you already got it from easy)

 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's been multiple such threads this year alone. You were just not paying attention. And yes, some of those people are present in this very thread.

 

Fair enough! I definitely got bored with the back and forth. That being said, it feels like at a bare minimum, the amount of opposition to easy mode raiding has at least decreased. Either way, given that it seems like they are moving forward with strikes and strike CMs, the easy mode raid conversation may finally be able to be put to rest, as Strikes should mostly solve that problem. 

[Fangoth.4503]

19 minutes ago, ButterPeanut.9746 said:

the easy mode raid conversation may finally be able to be put to rest, as Strikes should mostly solve that problem.

afraid it will never end until they make a story part accessible to every players

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

 

like any other story instance yeah but if you want 100% of the playerbase capable of doing it you cannot give too high reward else you can harm the game economy

 

if easy mode is for lore purpose hell no i don't expect people to climb up, just let them auto attack everything and enjoy the story and meanwhile i can fight the actual encounter.

 

maybe read again then:

You where saying that Open world stuff gave more money .

How will they breake the ingame economy ?:P

[Fangoth.4503]

3 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

You where saying that Open world stuff gave more money .

How will they breake the ingame economy ?:P

because it require the players to locate keys w a s d, and 2-0 sometimes f1-5 to complete and weekly capped

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

like any other story instance yeah but if you want 100% of the playerbase capable of doing it you cannot give too high reward else you can harm the game economy

Oh come on, it's not like it would come even close to drizzlewood meta anyway. And that content can be done by pretty much anyone. Or at least anyone with access to that LS.

 

Besides, since it's instanced content, it would still not be done by 100% of the playerbase regardless of how easy it would be. If we add the normal weekly lockouts on top of it, it would never have even a sliver of chance of harming game economy. Even if it had the 100% of the current raid rewards, which it would not have.

But still, suggesting players should do it for "20 silvers" or "2 blues and a green" (both actual suggestions from this and other threads) is either naive, or a completely conscious attemtp at killing the mode. You decide which.

 

7 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

if easy mode is for lore purpose hell no i don't expect people to climb up, just let them auto attack everything and enjoy the story and meanwhile i can fight the actual encounter.

Lore purpose would not be enough, as we both know. Lore would not bring enough people into raids (meant in this case as easy+normal modes, not just the current raids alone) to make devs interested in doing them again. You do need rewards on high enough level that people would come back to the content over and over again.

 

7 minutes ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

maybe read again then:

There have been some discussions about possible easy mode mechanics (because as i said some raiders did support the training mode option). The main point of contention was always not about the mechanics, but rather about really opening raids to a wider community.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

6 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

because it require the players to locate keys w a s d, and 2-0 sometimes f1-5 to complete

And they do that 😛

And the company has programed the Raid encounter around that sloww dps/button smasshing

The Raiders are the one whinign that people are not doing enought dps 😛

[Fangoth.4503]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

And they do that 😛

And the company has programed the Raid encounter around that sloww dps/button smasshing

The Raiders are the one whinign that people are not doing enought dps 😛

Not really raiders just make group with players of similar skill. those who doesn't want to learn how to play are the one complaining because they realise they have close to no chance to kill the boss with their own standards so they want to get in LI/KP group

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

Not really raiders just make group with players of similar skill. those who doesn't want to learn how to play are the one complaining because they realise they have close to no chance to kill the boss with their own standards so they want to get in LI/KP group

Then lets give KPand Li to normal groups 😛

So they formtheir own group lvl 😛

[Fangoth.4503]

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Then lets give KPand Li to normal groups 😛

So they formtheir own group lvl 😛

they don't need li/kp they just have to click create squad and advertise in lfg. if they can't do that minimum effort well they can skip it by joining one of the many groups that trade LI for mystic coins

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

they don't need li/kp they just have to click create squad and advertise in lfg. if they can't do that minimum effort well they can skip it by joining one of the many groups that trade LI for mystic coins

They need Ki and Lp , so they can form their own grouplvl .

250 will be the mid tier and 500 the high

 

Why dont you want to give the Normal Group those "curency" ? 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yann.1946]

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, there's that. Notice, though, that there's a disjoint in what that function should be. Raiders for the most part think that the purpose should be "raise the population in normal raids". There's also a few that allow for "story mode" (but with the assumption that it's something that is done purely for story, with no rewards - so, probably no more than once-twice).

 

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Second option obviously cannot raise participation in raids. It's just not something people would come back to, and we don't have enough new players influx to constantly fuel that content with new entrants. First option i have already commented on - obviously, i fully agree with those raiders that think it would not help raid population at all.

 

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice, though that the main disjunct lies in the third option. Namely, in making an easy mode worth repeating, which would not be treated as just a training/transitional/one time only mode but as a long-term investment content for practicallya  separate group of players. I'm yet to see a raider that would agree with that approach, but i have seen many that just pretend they don't understand how it is supposed to be different than the first example (or, perhaps, they genuinely don't understand how it would be different)

Then you just have not been paying attention i guess. most people i have seen objecting to long term easier raids did so from the basis that the hurdle to raids was morso the instanced part then the difficulty. And as such that their was an even smaller playerbase then the raid one interested in it.

Sort of how their was conflict with adding strikemissions to the meta even though they where pretty easy for the most part.

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That is again true.

 

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. And the general consensus among raiders is that any amount of loot that would make the content worth returning to would be too much.

This is a false statement. most raiders ive seen where against legendary armor being allowed (in the sense of LI).

And a part of these where against adding gaeting crystals etc.

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Once. Somehow i doubt a content even its proposents do not want to visit more than once-twice has a future.

 

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Neither. Because i am not acting in bad faith at all. And i am not misinforming anyone.

Well you are misinforming people, the question is just if you are doing this on purpose or not.

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice, btw, that at this point i no longer care about easy mode at all. It's not my problem that raids got abandoned after all. I got what i wanted out of it long ago. I am simply completely not surprised by the direction Anet went with. And the few people in this thread that seem so outraged by it? Well, they might all look at their own reactions to any suggestions to reform raids that were being thrown out throughout the years.

While i agree that a few reactions from people in this thread are pretty ridicolous. With the way the game developed raids did not nesseacrily need a reform. Their where a few easier things that could have done way more. Like a better system for finding guilds.

But that is ofcourse something you'll probably not agree with. 😛

39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

 

[Fangoth.4503]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

They need Ki and Lp , so they can form their own grouplvl .

250 will be the mid tier and 500 the high

except they don't need li/kp they need trainings, you aleways can create 0 li/kp group

 

3 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Why dont you want to give the Normal Group those "curency" ? 

because they don't know how to kill the boss duh. li/kp are here to prove you know the encounter, give it to everyone and pugs run would all be trainings level but advertise as 250li or whatever you give them

[yann.1946]

4 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

They need Ki and Lp , so they can form their own grouplvl .

250 will be the mid tier and 500 the high

 

Why dont you want to give the Normal Group those "curency" ? 

You probably should really classify what you mean with a normal group.