Siege Turtle: Yes or No? (As a new siege weapon not mount).

[Vissarion.6509]

Siege Turtles hype!

[XenesisII.1540]

So are you planning on replacing omega golems with this?

 

[DeanBB.4268]

Well...it's already a mount. Shouldn't the question be, will it be used in WvW and how?

[Vissarion.6509]

22 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

So are you planning on replacing omega golems with this?

 

No, siege turtles can be slower but deal more damage to structure.

 

13 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Well...it's already a mount. Shouldn't the question be, will it be used in WvW and how?

That's the question, do we want more siege weapons added to the gamemode or are we fine with what we currently have.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Vissarion.6509

[XenesisII.1540]

6 minutes ago, Vissarion.6509 said:

No, siege turtles can be slower but deal more damage to structure.

 

That's the question, do we want more siege weapons added to the gamemode or are we fine with what we currently have.

 

Um speed wouldn't matter, you use warclaw to ride up to gate, put on turtle, do more siege damage than omega.....

Unless they plan on heavily reducing the amount of attacks on it, like limited to supply use like the warclaw, but even then, it really shouldn't do more damage than an omega or ram or cata. 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

both. one driver, two people on the cannons. lezgo mobile siege!

[kash.9213]

I voted yes because it could look good in videos with a few different skins but I haven't read anything about it so it could just be a huge slow target. It would bring me back to Starwars Galaxies though when I made guildies do all of the driving so I could vibe across a planet. 

[Telgum.6071]

I think it should have some limitation to prevent abuse. Like long CD or the need of siege for ammo.

[bambi.6214]

I'm guessing it'll have a separate skill to deal structural damage to gates and walls but will need supply for each shot..

[aspirine.6852]

For sure in wvw...

[justnora.2754]

While I would love to see it, I highly boubt it ... mostly cause balance nightmare

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You all do realize that if it gets to be used in WvW, and gets to use it's siege attack, then said attack would use up supply per shot right?

It would at best be like the warclaw attacking the gate, helpful, but not something that one player can do alone to knock it down.

Also, it should totally be in WvW. Should have a ground targeted siege attack that deals double damage to walls. 2 supply per shot, but realistically 10 shots on a T1 wall would only drop it 20% max, maybe 10%.

[Omega.6801]

14 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Um speed wouldn't matter, you use warclaw to ride up to gate, put on turtle, do more siege damage than omega.....

Unless they plan on heavily reducing the amount of attacks on it, like limited to supply use like the warclaw, but even then, it really shouldn't do more damage than an omega or ram or cata. 

 

Speed/mobility might not matter, HP/Tankyness may very well tho. Most Mounts don't have much HP and they all leave you vulnerable when dismounted by force(i.e. killing the mount). Also with the Warclaw's dismount skill you might just be able to pull players off the turtle and into combat. But that's all just speculation at this point.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

SIEGE TURTLE AND BATTLE SHIPS, leggo! 🚀

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Also, it should totally be in WvW. Should have a ground targeted siege attack that deals double damage to walls. 2 supply per shot, but realistically 10 shots on a T1 wall would only drop it 20% max, maybe 10%.

Assuming a 50 man zerg, that would be 25 turtles up and manned in an instant, no siege building. Even at 10% max damage thats still 1% per attack. 25 turtles would do 25% damage per attack, or the zerg needing just 4 attacks to breach it. At the eqvivalent speed of an omega golem, it would take the zerg 4 seconds to get inside.

 

The stupidity of the potential WvW turtle is matter of numbers, just like it was with the warclaw - thats why the warclaw attack only works on doors, is slow as all kitten, does next to no damage and is so horribly ineffective only idiots use it over building a ram.

 

So here's the thing with the turtle; do you want it to be useless or do you want it to break the game?

 

Choose wisely.

[Sylvyn.4750]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Assuming a 50 man zerg, that would be 25 turtles up and manned in an instant, no siege building. Even at 10% max damage thats still 1% per attack. 25 turtles would do 25% damage per attack, or the zerg needing just 4 attacks to breach it. At the eqvivalent speed of an omega golem, it would take the zerg 4 seconds to get inside.

 

The stupidity of the potential WvW turtle is matter of numbers, just like it was with the warclaw - thats why the warclaw attack only works on doors, is slow as all kitten, does next to no damage and is so horribly ineffective only idiots use it over building a ram.

 

So here's the thing with the turtle; do you want it to be useless or do you want it to break the game?

 

Choose wisely.

 

They put a cap on Warclaws on one gate, limiting them to only 3 chain pulls per gate at a time, so they could do the same for the turtle.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Assuming a 50 man zerg, that would be 25 turtles up and manned in an instant, no siege building. Even at 10% max damage thats still 1% per attack. 25 turtles would do 25% damage per attack, or the zerg needing just 4 attacks to breach it. At the eqvivalent speed of an omega golem, it would take the zerg 4 seconds to get inside.

 

The stupidity of the potential WvW turtle is matter of numbers, just like it was with the warclaw - thats why the warclaw attack only works on doors, is slow as all kitten, does next to no damage and is so horribly ineffective only idiots use it over building a ram.

 

So here's the thing with the turtle; do you want it to be useless or do you want it to break the game?

 

Choose wisely.

I mean, how many warclaws does it take to rip open a gate and do you see zergs ripping gates down that way?

 

It would be a matter of CD.

[Teratus.2859]

I'm all for Siege Turtles being used in WvW.
But they're going to have to have restrictions and unique abilities there.

1 . No constant running speed!
They must walk and can only sprint for short distances, improvable via the mount owner (Siege Turtle pilot) investing points in the Siege Turtle line.

2. No mounting up in enemy territory!
They must be mounted in ally territory ONLY! and then walked to enemy gates and walls to attack them.
Other players will have to protect the Siege Turtles like they were escorting Golems.
Siege Turtle pilots cannot attack players to defend themselves.

3. Canon ammunition costs passengers/gunners supply!
All passengers on the Turtle must use their own supply stock to fire the canons, however players can rotate out.
The Damage output of the canons depends on the points invested in the Siege Turtle line by the passenger.

4.  Firing Canons has a cooldown period!
Self explanatory, however this cooldown can be decreased via the passenger investing points in the Siege Turtle line.

5. Hide in Shell! (Pilot)
Siege Turtle pilots should have the ability to immobilise their Siege Turtle and have it hide in it's shell.
Hiding turtles will take significantly less damage from enemy players but will gain a scaling defiance bar.
If the defiance bar is broken both the Turtles Pilot and Passengers will be dismounted and hard stunned for several seconds with all their skills locked, unable to use stunbreaks or defend themselves.
Pilot players should have to invest points in the Siege Turtle line to improve the effectiveness of their Hide in Shell defiance bar and reduce the heavy cooldown of this ability.

6. Hide in Shell! (Gunners) 
Passengers on a Siege Turtle when the pilot triggers the turtle to hide in it's shell should go through a mode change, loosing their typical canon skills and gaining some local defensive skills.
At the cost of their own supply passengers will be able blast nearby enemies away from the turtle, doing some damage and launching many players at once.
They will also be able to set up some AoE fields to help deter attackers from getting too close.
Passenger players should have to invest points in the Siege turtle line to both improve the effectiveness of these abilities and reduce their cooldowns.


Those are what i've come up with so far.

[XenesisII.1540]

4 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Speed/mobility might not matter, HP/Tankyness may very well tho. Most Mounts don't have much HP and they all leave you vulnerable when dismounted by force(i.e. killing the mount). Also with the Warclaw's dismount skill you might just be able to pull players off the turtle and into combat. But that's all just speculation at this point.

 

Speed and hit points don't matter when you first get to a gate or wall and no one is around to defend.

 

If the turtle can do decent damage, more than a ram or cata per hit, it will be used to sneak hit structures, obviously if you're attacking a t3 sieged up structure or expect quick enemy response you'll be better off building the ram/cata/omega/gen combo for longer duration sieging that will get hot.

 

It also depends on how hard the turtle's siege would hit, how long it takes for a hit, and how many charges you get with it. The question is, do people want this to replace most of the current siege in terms of it's power? or give it the warclaw treatment? It's a fine line, because if you give it the warclaw treatment it will be practically useless, if you give it some decent damage it'll be used to take t1 structures even faster.

 

It might be fun to make it into a bumper car though, for mount vs mount combat, where it's dismounting is not a spear but it rams into the other mount and then does an aoe..... mario kart vibes lol.

[DemonSeed.3528]

It can only be taken from spawn, slow as turtle and despawns if you get off of it :)

[Woop S.7851]

⚖️ The question comes down to its mechanics + how to balance it ⚖️

 

*Please share your thoughts, be as concise/constructive/ creative as you'd like 🤓

 

Questions:
1. Should the turtle be a 'siege print', a drivable vehicle that spawns through a interval? Or also a NPC that spawns & moves/attacks objectives automatically? (similar to NPC Commander Siegerazer?)
 

2. Should the turtle be buildable on the Skiff/boat? Imagine 25 turtles on 1 boat stacked firing on a keep or another boat (boat wars meta), how should this be balanced? Thoughts?
 

3. "Siege Turtle" attributes, what should they be?

• Amount of supplies to build it?
• Movement speed?
• Turtle beam/cannon area of effect?
• Cannon damage per hit?
• Cannon reload time interval?
• Cannon can rips boons?
• Cannon do light or heavy damage at players/walls/doors?
• Cannon do light or heavy damage at Arrow carts/Ballista/Golems?
• Should Golems or Juggernauts be able to counter/stun/disrupt turtle?
• Can turtles fire at units gliding in the air?
• Can gliding units counter turtles? (drop bombs?)
• Health & Armor of Turtle?
• Monster skills?
   

How they worked in GW1 (Reference only):
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Siege_Turtle_(summon)
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Siege_Turtle
 

Kurzicks (GW1) defending against Siege Turtles in Fort Aspenwood (Reference only):

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Woop S.7851

[Jski.6180]

Needs to be a wvw tactic like char car. Keep its 2 player use where one can get off with out despawning it.

[Jaykay.9641]

I think Siege Turtle would be an awesome addition to a stale WvW scene. There obviously would have to be some restrictions in place to not make it just an on-demand catapult.

Some possible ideas to make it feasible in WvW:

 

• Make it so the Turtle can only do damage to Structural Vulnerability targets. Can add it to walls if needed via a catapult trait. This way other siege blueprints would be needed.
• Any player wanting to spawn their Turtle needs to build up a supply first and can only be used once and upon kill, your use of Turtle is done until you get enough supply again; you can call it a "stocked" blueprint. (Example: a player can choose to "stock" a Turtle use at the supply depot for 30 supply or whatever it is. Then player can spawn the Turtle when they desire but cannot use it again until they have another "stocked" up Turtle use. Being killed or destroyed removes their charge. This may lead to a bunch of drained supply depots all over the map, but players would learn)
• While it's call "Siege" Turtle, maybe make it only available to hit players and NPC's. This will give more damage options against zergs and defenders.
• Speed is key - an arrow cart should be able to take it down with ease as it shouldn't be able to outmaneuver the arrow carts AoE's.
• Give Warclaw a counter Siege Turtle ability? Maybe the Warclaw skill 3 would be able to be used on Turtles a well to cause damage. Visions of Star Wars where an AT-AT gets corralled by X-Wings with harpoon guns and topples over come to my head. (very low chance something like this happens, but its sounds fun)

 

Anyway, we know elite specializations will bring a new meta, but Turtles may still be fun :)

[Ronin.4501]

What I wanna know is will 2-3 zerk Soulbeasts be able to burn it down in 10-15 seconds the way they can almost all other siege? 🤣

[fuzzyp.6295]

I'd wish ANet would fix the Warclaw balance and exploitable issues before they add any new mounts to WvW but whatever I guess Turtle Meta inc. I assume it will deal damage to walls and work kind of like a weaker moble treb... Juggernauts to be added in by Living World Season 6?