Projectile reflection / block and invul should be revised

[Eclipsiste.3251]

Hi guys,

 

I feel there is a problem with the way some classes / builds can almost permanently avoid taking damage.

 

Projectile reflection should definitely be revised. Retaliation disappeared because it was not fun, and it was a much-too-easy passive way to penalize damaging builds. Projectile reflection does the same, only worse by reflecting 100% of the attack. Some classes / builds have become completely invulnerable foes to range builds, without even sacrificing DPS, and that should not exist in the game. If you play a projectile range class like Ranger or rifle Deadeye, good luck dealing any kind of damage to an Elem right now...

Would you consider this a satisfying game mechanic if the same existed with melee attacks: having your melee strikes constantly reflected back to you at 100% strength?

 

As for block and invul... While roaming I come across more and more players abusing an almost permanent rotation of blocks / invul and reflects

I also think we've all seen at least once the absurd situation when 25 guys are hammering on a War who is able to take absolutely no damage for more than 15 secs...

 

I think some tinkering should be done, like keeping the invul / block duration but adding a max number of strikes it can absorb.

Projectile reflection need a bigger revision though. One that takes into account the availability of projectile block to a build because if one can maintain a constant rotation of block and reflection this is too powerful.

 

I don't mind getting turned into a kebab by a thief that is too clever or too quick for me, because I know the class is hard to play and needs time to master.... The mechanics I list here do not need to climb a learning curve to avoid damage.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

no, just NO. people gotta learn to not fire projectiles into bubbles, that is all.

 

another thing maybe is the long amount of time of blocks and dodges on quite some classes

 

there's actually only very few skills that really reflect the projectiles. and so many weird cookie cutter range pew pew builds are possible, there is zero sense to feed these even more. rangers and their 1700er phantomrange projectiles are yet nuts enough (far too easy to play, too much utility and runaway options). no need to give them another indirect buff...

Edited August 1, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[Eclipsiste.3251]

I don't agree with that... If a class can perma rotate block and reflection this is too much. Then again ranger lost most of the "unblockable attack" options last over the past 3 years. Soulbeast notably suffered from this and the removal of pet change during combat, but that's another topic. I just feel that no class should be able to block/avoid/reflect 100% of the attacks of another class.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

It's a good thing Rangers have excellent non-projectile weapons too.

 

Keep in mind that projectile attacks are usually ranged, and ranged attacks are generally safer than melee.  Melee still contends with blocks and invulns.  It makes sense for ranged projectile attacks to have a drawback to their relative safety.

[Widmo.3186]

There was a thread like that not long ago, was that you?
Ill answer with the same thing as the first time:

if reflects are truly so OP, lets play a game. If you win Ill admit that reflection/blocks should be nerfed, If I win youll stop crying about mechanics and instead try to actually improve at the game and learn your class. Deal?
Game rules - find me one reflect skill, that has shorter CD than Rapid Fire, can be used instantly and its duration is long enough to cover whole Rapid Fire channel. So basically, it counters whole skill that deals the most damage on longbow soulbeast and makes it unusable. Good luck have fun.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Eclipsiste.3251]

1 minute ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

It's a good thing Rangers have excellent non-projectile weapons too.

 

Keep in mind that projectile attacks are usually ranged, and ranged attacks are generally safer than melee.  Melee still contends with blocks and invulns.  It makes sense for ranged projectile attacks to have a drawback to their relative safety.

Yes and no... Many classes have range attacks that are not projectiles (Elem, Mesmer...) and that can hurt quite a lot from afar. Projectiles suffer from a special treatment that weakens them too much.

Non-projectile range attacks can still be blocked, but not reflected. The block part is fine by me, with the limitations I mentioned above. I agree with your last sentence, but to that effect  the reflect part should be limited or extended to all forms of range attacks.

[Eclipsiste.3251]

5 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

There was a thread like that not long ago, was that you?
Ill answer with the same thing as the first time:

if reflects are truly so OP, lets play a game. If you win Ill admit that reflection/blocks should be nerfed, If I win youll stop crying about mechanics and instead try to actually improve at the game and learn your class. Deal?
Game rules - find me one reflect skill, that has shorter CD than Rapid Fire, can be used instantly and its duration is long enough to cover whole Rapid Fire channel. So basically, it counters whole skill that deals the most damage on longbow soulbeast and makes it unusable. Good luck have fun.

Your game is biased on the fact I only speak of reflect. Again if you take into account a rotation that allows constant projectiles block and reflect, which is possible on a least 3 classes, you find the problem I'm trying to put into light.

But I guess that a person who feels the need to insult someone on her very first reply in this topic would not be inclined to make that kind of effort.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

and yet ele got buffed by removing retaliation (really bad change in the end, resolution is such a crappy thing) and condi mirage got a new boost. why? yeah idk.

 

also the point about setting reflects up is fully true. all the metaclasses have on average far longer cast times than they "pew pew rambo condispam stealthyneakninja" stuff.

 

i would rather pledge for all bubble-style things to gain reflects, that'd be fun. and maybe also reflect on shield gens 😉

[Widmo.3186]

14 minutes ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

Your game is biased on the fact I only speak of reflect. Again if you take into account a rotation that allows constant projectiles block and reflect, which is possible on a least 3 classes, you find the problem I'm trying to put into light.

But I guess that a person who feels the need to insult someone on her very first reply in this topic would not be inclined to make that kind of effort.

Insult? Darling, I didnt use even a single invective, or perhaps telling truth is now seen as an insult? Ouch.
And again, theres not a single class in this game that can run whole rotation of blocks and reflects and deny ranged weapon. Non. You can continue my game the way you put it so it wont be "biased". Go around, ask your friends, duel, Ill wait and watch. Find me one build that can make ranged weapon unusable by holding block/reflects uptime 100% of the time. For a moment Ill even forget that classes you mentioned, DE or Soulbeast, have second weapon slot and their "rotation" too.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Arheundel.6451]

43 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

no, just NO. people gotta learn to not fire projectiles into bubbles, that is all.

 

another thing maybe is the long amount of time of blocks and dodges on quite some classes

 

there's actually only very few skills that really reflect the projectiles. and so many weird cookie cutter range pew pew builds are possible, there is zero sense to feed these even more. rangers and their 1700er phantomrange projectiles are yet nuts enough (far too easy to play, too much utility and runaway options). no need to give them another indirect buff...

It'll be fun to see the wind change when Virtuoso and Unkown Necro elite  are released...both are projectiles, while I don't disagree with you...I will laugh my guts out reading the comments of whining mesmer/necro mains about projectile hate, that'll be a field day for me and I'll come to the forum with a full track record of legendary memes...I pray Virtuoso and necro elite are full projectiles based because I will become a meme lord  if that time comes

Edited August 1, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Eclipsiste.3251]

8 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Insult? Darling, I didnt use even a single invective, or perhaps telling truth is now seen as an insult? Auch.
And again, theres not a single class in this game that can run whole rotation of blocks and reflects and deny ranged weapon. Non. You can continue my game the way you put it so it wont be "biased". Go around, ask your friends, duel, Ill wait and watch. Find me one build that can make ranged weapon unusable by holding block/reflects uptime 100% of the time. For a moment Ill even forget that classes you mentioned, DE or Soulbeast, have second weapon slot and their "rotation" too.

It's interesting to see the classic ranger hater trying to hijack the conversation... I also mentioned Deadeye you know. But I'm here to read comments from people who are genuinely interested in dialogue, so I guess I won't waste time with you.

[Widmo.3186]

16 minutes ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

It's interesting to see the classic ranger hater trying to hijack the conversation... I also mentioned Deadeye you know. But I'm here to read comments from people who are genuinely interested in dialogue, so I guess I won't waste time with you.

Hahaha, yeah you got me, Im a classic ranger hater. Because with (quoting) at least 3 classes that can just delete pewpew ranger from the game theres so much to hate, right? 
Yes, I know you mentioned DE, read my comment above, I mentioned it as well darling.
Whatever floats your boat, I just showed you why your statement of revising projectiles reflection/blocks is unfounded. And not only me, look at how many confusion emotes you got and how many people agreed with you so far. My game is still active if you want to get any proper arguments instead of "Q_Q I cant mindlessly pewpew people because they pop their defensive CDs, how rude ANet, how rude". 
😘

[Zyreva.1078]

There is no 100% block/reflect uptime. Even if there were, it still would not shut down an entire class/spec, because all, including ranger and DE, have non projectile options.

 

Reflects and blocks are fine. Leave them alone.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I would rather have visible skill on my screen instead of some red circles here and there or even none that indicate "reflect" before I start casting Pile Diver just to self-slap my face with 8k.
Reflects are fine and even needed since Soulbeasts and DEs deals quite high damage from 1.5k range pewpew and can even kill someone with that alone. There are more classes that can do 1shot meme from 1.2k+ range beside these 2 as well.

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Game rules - find me one reflect skill, that has shorter CD than Rapid Fire, can be used instantly and its duration is long enough to cover whole Rapid Fire channel. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_3:_Valiant_Bulwark
8sec recharge, 5sec duration. Can be used 5 times.

Rapid Fire
10sec recharge, 2 1/2 sec channel.
8sec recharge when traited.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Widmo.3186]

4 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_3:_Valiant_Bulwark
8sec recharge, 5sec duration. Can be used 5 times.

Rapid Fire
10sec recharge, 2 1/2 sec channel.
8sec recharge when traited.

Nice, I respect that actually some1 put some effort searching for something close to win the game. One thing doesnt match, it has 3/4s cast time, to fully counter ranged weapon it must be instant cast, to not leave any holes. But once again, respect 

[Caedmon.6798]

Op,it's a lost fight. Youre talking about nerfing something that 90% of the wvw players use in their blob or guild raids. I do agree with you that reflect and projectile blocks need a look at,proper groups can rotate it to have a near uptime of both.

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

Projectile reflection should definitely be revised. Retaliation disappeared because it was not fun, and it was a much-too-easy passive way to penalize damaging builds. Projectile reflection does the same, only worse by reflecting 100% of the attack.

 

Retaliation affected:

- aoe fields which were placed, making intentionally running into damage "useful" while the opposing side had no way of counter play (and encouraging a unintended play style)

- retaliation affected nearly all attacks taken, not a specific type of attack

- retaliation was a: "press a button and everyone in the surrounding area gets the boon"

- retaliation scaled with number of players hit

 

Reflects

- nearly all projectile skills can be cancelled, thereby reacting to enemy reflects

- reflect only affect projectile skills, all other applications are unaffected thereby encouraging the attacker to change their engage (yes, this can affect classes differently, but it still falls into the design of action and reaction)

- reflects, at least aoe reflect fields, need placement (and can thus be played around by both sides)

- reflect scaled with number off attackers (thus giving the attacker again an opportunity to react)

 

So, while from a simplistic observation the 2 might seem similar. If you actually went further and considered cause and effect for both mechanics, they differ quite a bit.

 

That's why 1 of them has seen a rework, and the other has not.

 

EDIT:

and while we are at it, reflects have counter play too. It's called unblockable:

Unblockable is a property of attack skills which prevents the attack from being blocked, and in case of ranged attacks, reflected or otherwise destroyed by effects of skills.

- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

Edited August 1, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Nice, I respect that actually some1 put some effort searching for something close to win the game. One thing doesnt match, it has 3/4s cast time, to fully counter ranged weapon it must be instant cast, to not leave any holes. But once again, respect 

To be fair, I'm not agreeing with the OP's request or complaints. Just sharing something that's relevant to it.

You can also get very high anti-projectile uptime with a Tempest using; Focus, Earth Shield, and "Aftershock!". 5 reflects or destructs not including Invulnerability potential. 

So it's true there's a lot of anti-projectiles available, but it's also not entirely fair to complain about it for exactly the reason you stated. Ranged skills often have lower recharge times and lower costs. 

Also, @ the OP, everything should have a counter. Be grateful if you're a Ranger main because it has some of the fewest when solo/small scale. And anti-projectile builds aren't even hard counters if you're a Soulbeast.

[Telgum.6071]

I don't see the problem with projectiles. And I hate rangers btw.

 

As for blocks I think they are only broken on firebrands, so it comes to nerf that overturned class.

 

As your invul, I think it should slow your movement somehow. Becoming invulnerable for a short time is "ok" but becoming invulnerable + running five milles away? C'mon.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't see the problem with projectiles. And I hate rangers btw.

 

As for blocks I think they are only broken on firebrands, so it comes to nerf that overturned class.

 

As your invul, I think it should slow your movement somehow. Becoming invulnerable for a short time is "ok" but becoming invulnerable + running five milles away? C'mon.

Tried chasing Holosmith/Scrapper with superspeed yet?

[Telgum.6071]

12 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Tried chasing Holosmith/Scrapper with superspeed yet?

If running behind a engineer were an olympic sport I would probably earn a medal.

[LionZero.3479]

Just give reflection skills the same treatment as unblockable skills.

Ergo give it charges and make em useless like signet of the hunt Kappa

[Caedmon.6798]

1 hour ago, LionZero.3479 said:

Just give reflection skills the same treatment as unblockable skills.

Ergo give it charges and make em useless like signet of the hunt Kappa

You know its not gonna happen Alloces.

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Nice, I respect that actually some1 put some effort searching for something close to win the game. One thing doesnt match, it has 3/4s cast time, to fully counter ranged weapon it must be instant cast, to not leave any holes. But once again, respect 

 

Also the tome itself comes on  a 60s cooldown and replaces your weapon skills. There aren't any offensive ones (besides 2, sorta) so while the firebrand can avoid death for a while, there's also no way for the ranger to die unless they're really trying to suicide.

 

It becomes obnoxious in bigger fights but in roaming fights. I understand if the ranger is like on their first day not knowing what reflects are. Otherwise...

 

On DE, you should be launching your first two shots before they can react.

 

If anything I find the plethora of projection destruction and also random "obstructed" much more of a problem.

 

Oh and invincible warriors, about that 300s cds....

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480