Considerations when making weapon predictions

[Zacchary.6183]

I know everyone has their own dream weapon (mine is easy to figure out). But when making these predictions, it is important to remember that Anet has a methodology of selecting which weapon to add and the design of the elite attached to said weapon. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Most of their decisions are dictated by their design limitations and available resources. Thinking that slapping your favorite weapon onto "Shadow <thing>" is enough for the idea to be considered is a good way to get your dreams crushed later on. As for the EoD thief elite, there are only two possibilities that have a high chance of happening for one very good reason (and then some). They are:

• OH Sword/Assassin Arts/Phantasms - Assassin by hatsamu.4327
• GS/AoE Denial and Support/Wells - Dark Knight by me

And the main reason I believe it will be some variation of either of these is because the core design for each of them has already been drawn up to completion. Track record has shown Anet has pulled ideas from the Thief forums for both Daredevil and Deadeye and tweaked it to their own whims. So we could assume they've done it for EoD. I mean, who wouldn't? That is time and money saved. And before you ask, I have yet to see another design as fleshed out as these two. Yes, sorry if it looks like I am self-advertising. I have not seen any other good, fleshed out ideas to support from any other thief.

 

Another two good reasons it probably won't be anything else is popularity and necessity. The Assassin featuring offhand sword has been a favorite in terms of single handed weapons and because it was a callback to Factions, offering nostalgia for players of GW1 and weeb stuff for weebs. The Dark Knight is more about necessity as it offers things that Thief cannot do, like tank and support, cover ground, inflict burning, etc. While the greatsword is not exactly a popular choice weapon-wise, the elite attempts to allow for a broader set of roles in group play. The Greatsword can be changed out, but then the theme would need to be looked at so it doesn't look like a non-sensical mess.

 

Last good reason some weapons will most likely not happen is redundancy both in function and gameplay. Some weapons I very highly doubt will make it. Or if they do, they will be lackluster. The biggest offenders are Mace and Torch. Mace tends to have a lot of cc attached to it, but so does Daredevil. In fact, I am fairly sure daredevil was meant to give thief some viable Interrupt builds utilizing Impacting Disruption. Torch has a better chance of appearing, but it would suffer from underwhelming design more due to Burning being the most powerful dot. Thief already excels at applying bleeding and poison so you can imagine how much more damage a few stacks of burning would cause. Blind spam would suck in its own way too, for both parties.

 

Anyway, take care when you start speculating please. Don't get your hopes up. Even I am expecting Assassin to happen more than my idea. :P

Edited August 4, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[draxynnic.3719]

Eh. They definitely pay attention to what players are asking for, but I don't believe the core conceit of this thread that they'll pick up someone's incredibly detailed proposal because that's easy. Past history has shown that they like putting their own spins on concepts, and there are probably IP considerations involved with lifting someone's suggestions verbatim, even as a starting point.

 

If something's seen a fair amount of discussion in broad terms over several months, if anything it probably has more chance of having been noticed than a concept that had less than a page of discussion that was over in less than a month, no matter how detailed.

 

And there's always the possibility of them following a general concept while using an unexpected weapon, or just making something that's purely their own creation because it's what they got excited over in brainstorming.

[MrForz.1953]

So... your idea good and everything else bad? Honestly seeing how "groundbreaking" Deadeye is after thieves moaned for rifle since 2013 one would be careful of what one wishes for, lest it becomes true. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[hatsamu.4327]

Hey man, thanks for the shoutout! But yeah, I think keeping expectations in check goes for us too. Adding a bunch of details for synergies to theorycraft might be fun, but I doubt we can really lessen the workload of the devs. Behind the scenes, there's probably systems interactions they have to contend with that are unseen to us players as we daydream. 

 

I think certain aspects of yours have a good chance of appearing (in some form or another) since it addresses current shortcomings of Thief that have been expressed by others, e.g. dark magic, AOE zoning, or the tanky/supportive trait row. From what we've seen of Virtuoso, there might be themes sprinkled in from the forums, but it's hard to claim we inspired them when they inspired us and we're all inspired by a shared pool of fantasy media. 

 

Their Deadeye was pretty different from the old forums (DeceiverX's?). And have you seen that Bard elite concept in the Mesmer forum? Super detailed, widely shared, and I have no actual polling statistics of course, but I'll say it was vocally popular. But ultimately not the direction Anet decided to take and my expectations are the devs will continue to do their own thing, I think.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

The devs definitely do read the forums for ideas, but you are right about keeping expectations low because you might not like the direction they decide to go either. I still remember that "what do you want to see in the new Elite Spec" thread the devs started on the old thief forums before HoT and how a bunch of the ideas from that ended up being part of revenant. 

[Salvatore.3749]

Well, they do use some logic. For some reason, the thief, as of now, can dual wield, but not dual wield swords. Sword off-hand would be the logical choice. Although, personally, I think GS would be cooler in more of a body guard type specialization (dual swords would be a throwback to Shiro, the first assassin turned body guard, then corrupt assassin). But, I think posted something similar to this topic a few weeks ago, essentially ANET uses a logic and certain systems as the method for selecting weapons and utility skills. However, on the EoD live stream, they did say they were breaking away from their traditional specialization rules and doing new things. 

 

For thief, the past two specializations were 2-handed weapons. That means logically and historically hammer or GS would be selected. If they are breaking away from the rules and doing things for GW1 fans, or adding something to thieves that thieves should have, it will likely be Sword Offhand. Which would give thieves much more skills in the long run.

 

But, I totally understand the whole point, we just have to wait and see and hope the new specializations are fun. 

[Zacchary.6183]

On 8/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, MrForz.1953 said:

So... your idea good and everything else bad?

Its "I had an idea and others didn't."

[Zacchary.6183]

On 8/2/2021 at 3:17 PM, hatsamu.4327 said:

Their Deadeye was pretty different from the old forums (DeceiverX's?). And have you seen that Bard elite concept in the Mesmer forum? Super detailed, widely shared, and I have no actual polling statistics of course, but I'll say it was vocally popular. But ultimately not the direction Anet decided to take and my expectations are the devs will continue to do their own thing, I think.

I also had a rifle concept. They did take some ideas from both of us and put a spin on it. Though they were bound to, considering the theme was an arcane sniper (thief/ele). And I did see the bard concept. Definitely worth playing if the synergy is good. It is a good idea and hopefully Anet will consider it if they have another expac after EoD.

[Xukavi.4320]

14 hours ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

Well, they do use some logic. For some reason, the thief, as of now, can dual wield, but not dual wield swords. Sword off-hand would be the logical choice. Although, personally, I think GS would be cooler in more of a body guard type specialization (dual swords would be a throwback to Shiro, the first assassin turned body guard, then corrupt assassin). But, I think posted something similar to this topic a few weeks ago, essentially ANET uses a logic and certain systems as the method for selecting weapons and utility skills. However, on the EoD live stream, they did say they were breaking away from their traditional specialization rules and doing new things. 

 

For thief, the past two specializations were 2-handed weapons. That means logically and historically hammer or GS would be selected. If they are breaking away from the rules and doing things for GW1 fans, or adding something to thieves that thieves should have, it will likely be Sword Offhand. Which would give thieves much more skills in the long run.

 

But, I totally understand the whole point, we just have to wait and see and hope the new specializations are fun. 

I lf I remember it wasn't that they were breaking rules for elite specializations but rules for the profession as a whole.

If you think about it, each profession has had some core features that have existed in both their specializations. The example we have now is Memser used to always have clones and profession mechanics revolving around them but now they don't have clones with Virtuoso. Think what is a core identity of the profession and that's likely what they'll break.

Its not that their "rule" was giving Thieves 2 handed weapons in specializations. I think its better to ask what is a core identity of thief that can be changed?

 

Thieves core identity is acrobatic combat (mobility), stealth/stealth attacks, stolen skills and dual wield skill.

 

Daredevil focused on acrobatic combat/mobility via changing how our dodges work and giving us an extra dodge. But didn't do anything for stealth/stealth attacks or dual wield skills

 

Deadeye focused on enchancing stealth/stealth attacks by giving us malicious stealth attacks and a way to remove revealed. Steal and stolen skills had minor changes.

 

This imo means the next spec would focus on steal/stolen skills and/or dual wield skills. If like they said they're breaking rules I can see them replacing steal with a new mechanic (i honestly doubt it would be that drastic given no other profession to my knowledge had their mechanic totally replaced but maybe they could expand on it) or they change how stealth effects us. I could see them going with the new profession unable to go stealth but instead get a new buff whenever you apply stealth to make you mo| formidable in combat. Something like minor trait you're always revealed or revealedis pulsed every X seconds and apply stealth instead applies (insert new elite spec buff here). This could synergize well with traits that work on being revealed. To make it more support ortiented you could have a trait that lets us share that new buff.

 

[Salvatore.3749]

On 8/4/2021 at 5:37 AM, Xukavi.4320 said:

This imo means the next spec would focus on steal/stolen skills and/or dual wield skills. If like they said they're breaking rules I can see them replacing steal with a new mechanic (i honestly doubt it would be that drastic given no other profession to my knowledge had their mechanic totally replaced but maybe they could expand on it) or they change how stealth effects us. I could see them going with the new profession unable to go stealth but instead get a new buff whenever you apply stealth to make you mo| formidable in combat. Something like minor trait you're always revealed or revealedis pulsed every X seconds and apply stealth instead applies (insert new elite spec buff here). This could synergize well with traits that work on being revealed. To make it more support ortiented you could have a trait that lets us share that new buff.

 

 

 

So the leak said scepter is coming. I'm a little disappointed, but if done right, it could be really cool. So the assassin from GW1 had Shadow Form and the old shadow form builds that were nearly invincible in that game relied on scepter (for energy) and focus for (health), so if they provide boons and combo fields with it, along with the ability to remain stealthed for longer periods of time and provide that support to a team or high amounts of damage, that could work really well. For some reason, I think we are going to get a hybrid of both the old Ritualist (mostly the channeling skill) and Assassin professions from Guild Wars 1. 

 

The channeling skill for Rituatlists in GW 1 primarily focused on high damage and granting team mates weapon spells that could heal, kill faster, or block, while simultaneously providing spells that struck foes for high damage with low to moderate cool down times at the cost of high energy requirements.

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

 

 

So the leak said scepter is coming. I'm a little disappointed, but if done right, it could be really cool. So the assassin from GW1 had Shadow Form and the old shadow form builds that were nearly invincible in that game relied on scepter (for energy) and focus for (health), so if they provide boons and combo fields with it, along with the ability to remain stealthed for longer periods of time and provide that support to a team or high amounts of damage, that could work really well. For some reason, I think we are going to get a hybrid of both the old Ritualist (mostly the channeling skill) and Assassin professions from Guild Wars 1. 

 

The channeling skill for Rituatlists in GW 1 primarily focused on high damage and granting team mates weapon spells that could heal, kill faster, or block, while simultaneously providing spells that struck foes for high damage with low to moderate cool down times at the cost of high energy requirements.

 Focus would be still the cooler weapon. Why the Toilet Brusher?

[Tails.9372]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:32 PM, Salvatore.3749 said:

Well, they do use some logic.

 

Yeah but their logic is more along the line of "wouldn't it be cool if we do X and then let's find a way to justify it" instead of "ok what's the class still missing and what would be the best fit for it". I'm not against the idea of "support thief" but if they pull something like this I would like to see a focus or a warhorn as they are just better fits and pair with more. Same with some mid range condi spec, sure they can make scepter "work" but torch would just work better as it would have more synergy with what's already available. There is only one thing scepter can do where "but X would have been a better choice" doesn't apply but until the reveal pretty much anything is on the table which is kind of the issue with their method of doing things.

[Salvatore.3749]

33 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 Focus would be still the cooler weapon. Why the Toilet Brusher?

 

As I think about it a little further, there is something unique to the thief that we would get, more dual skills. Now my question is will it be off-hand or main-hand? Personally, I like the thought of both, main hand could be mid range or even melee whereas off-hand could definitely be support oriented and would provide thief with new weapon swap variations. 

[Salvatore.3749]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

 until the reveal pretty much anything is on the table which is kind of the issue with their method of doing things.

 

That is so true. All we can do is wait until the next few months for the release. 

 

Honestly, I think torch would be cool as an offhand for thief, I totally forgot that torch was a thing, but I am not quite sure it fits with thief's stealth mechanic visually and it would lend itself to condi via burning. That would kind of suck to give thief the burning condition only as an elite specialization. Sure, on the other hand, main hand torch could be melee and burning, but that just seems odd for thief's general concepts. Not saying it is bad because I could see torch working. 

 

But, as I dwell on the leak, scepter could be really cool and provide more variety in gameplay.