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End of Dragons elite spec preview


Fire Attunement.9835

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On 9/23/2021 at 3:39 PM, Alonso.7540 said:

If you had to rank from best to worst how it would look? IMO:

1. Catalyst 2. Bladeswor 3. Vindicator 4. Herbinger 5. Virtuoso 6. Willbender 

Well core ele with an F5 is not that bad but an elite spec it is not. The utility even the wepon (hammer) are not used at all. Its just a trait line and an F5.

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A bit of a side note (but fits here well oddly) why dose anet keep using cheats during there live steams it give very miss leading previews on the classes. Look at what we saw with Catalyst anet made it look like there cast time was super low as well as the cd and made it look like atument swapping during its F5 was a full energy restore (if it was the F5 would be seen as a LOT better for use then what we have now).

Anet please stop using cheats in the preview steams and show us the class with all of its flaws.

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On 9/23/2021 at 3:39 PM, Alonso.7540 said:

If you had to rank from best to worst how it would look? IMO:

1. Catalyst 2. Bladeswor 3. Vindicator 4. Herbinger 5. Virtuoso 6. Willbender 

 

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8. Mace Engineer, Hammer Ranger, Scepter Thief.

9. Bladesworn, Catalyst, Harbinger, Vindicator, Virtuoso, Willbender.

 

Does that work?

 

 

 

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On 9/23/2021 at 9:39 PM, Alonso.7540 said:

If you had to rank from best to worst how it would look? IMO:

1. Catalyst 2. Bladeswor 3. Vindicator 4. Herbinger 5. Virtuoso 6. Willbender 

1. Bladesworn

2. Harbinger

3. Virtuoso

4. Catalyst

5. Willbender

6. A simple power buff for the revenant

7. Power Renegade getting a 100 dps increase from a bug fix

8. Revenant players being flat out told they're not getting a new elite because renegade is strong enough

100. Vindicator

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1). Harbinger

2). Vindicator

3). Virtuoso

4). Willbender

5). Bladesworn.

6). Cataylst.

Harbinger is likely the closest to being complete, outside kinda boring utility which isnt hard to really add alittle to so it can spice it up alittle.

Vindicator has 1 bad trait and a few tweaks away from being Decent.

Below that they just stagger from Bad to horrific.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Alright, now that I've had a chance to try all of them...


Mechanist, Catalyst, and Bladesworn are, by a large margin, the most fun for me to play.  They're certainly not the most effective (barring bladesworn, maybe), and catalyst/mechanist both have some severe design issues that I really hope get resolved before release, but they are FUN, which matters most to me.  I couldn't care less about being meta in pvp or pve as long as I'm getting by and having a blast doing it.  Mechanist gets top slot by far just for the gaige+deathtrap mechromancer vibes, I friggin love it.  Catalyst I thought I'd hate, and I really didn't want a hammer for my little asura elementalist, but as soon as I played it that opinion changed, the animations are adorable and it feels much simpler to play than tempest or weaver.

 

Willbender, Specter, and Untamed were by far the least fun/most boring of the lot.  I'm sure they're plenty effective, but they just didn't feel right.

The rest I'm just not interested enough in to bother with, tbh.

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12 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Alright, now that I've had a chance to try all of them...


Mechanist, Catalyst, and Bladesworn are, by a large margin, the most fun for me to play.  They're certainly not the most effective (barring bladesworn, maybe), and catalyst/mechanist both have some severe design issues that I really hope get resolved before release, but they are FUN, which matters most to me.  I couldn't care less about being meta in pvp or pve as long as I'm getting by and having a blast doing it.  Mechanist gets top slot by far just for the gaige+deathtrap mechromancer vibes, I friggin love it.  Catalyst I thought I'd hate, and I really didn't want a hammer for my little asura elementalist, but as soon as I played it that opinion changed, the animations are adorable and it feels much simpler to play than tempest or weaver.

 

Willbender, Specter, and Untamed were by far the least fun/most boring of the lot.  I'm sure they're plenty effective, but they just didn't feel right.

The rest I'm just not interested enough in to bother with, tbh.

I don't know about Effective for Willbender and Specter.

 

Willbender had so many delays before their damage actually proced, making the spec pretty useless in my opinion.
Specter was just overall unpleasant to play in WvW.

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As a WvW player (large scale)-

they're all useless and I don't even see the potential for them to be good with buffs. Huge problem.

 

As a PvP player-

Virtuoso was the coolest. A bit undertuned but that can be expected for a beta.

 

Vindicator needs significant reworks. The dodge mechanic feels terrible, the alliance stance and f2 are needlessly complicated (in a clunky way) to play. Greatsword was cool but needs tweaks to make it feel better (for example the 600 range dash, wth?) Overall way too many tradeoffs with no payoff.

 

Bladesworn got the Deadeye treatment I guess. Really cool for PvE but probably never going to be great in a PvP setting. I can give them a pass for this sacrifice because it does seem sick in PvE.

 

Untamed is similar to vindicator in that the profession mechanic is needlessly complicated when using a hammer. The hammer is pretty bad, partly due to that. Unleash should only swap pet skills, not hammer. Just make the 5 hammer skills good and fun to play. Some of the cantrips could use buffs/reworks, but the teleport cantrip is easily the coolest thing about the spec.

 

Didn't play any of the others.

Edited by Elementalist Owner.7802
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Depends on the game mode, but my experience (I play tested all of them, some more than others) was that none of the e-specs were very far along, some probably not even worth beta testing. I can't think of any new e-spec that would compete with the current meta specs. Maybe they weren't meant to be polished and it was just a taste, but if that's the case I'm concerned there isn't enough time to finish them before release. Some of the specs, Willbender comes to mind, need a complete overhaul. 

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My thoughts are kind of all over the place for the elite specs. I'll try to keep it short since I have a bad habit of rambling and repeating myself in these feedback posts. I'll start with worse and work my way up! This is mostly concerning themes, feel, fun, and other subjective views rather than effectiveness or numbers. But, I will bring that up when relevant. I've posted more in-depth in the individual threads and wanted this to be more of a "general feel" kind of feedback. I'll try to end each one with a TL;DR. 

  1. Catalyst - I feel like it's not a controversial opinion to suggest this needs a lot more time in the oven. I'm actually one of the relatively few that liked the idea of Hammer Ele. I know it's my fault for even having an expectation. But, I was kind of hoping for something more like Enhancement Shaman in World of Warcraft. Like a brute and raw control over the elements. Smashing out elemental attacks with sheer force. What Catalyst ended up being was some weird mix of Tempest and Weaver with a weapon that, similarly to the e-spec, doesn't know what it is. The Jade Sphere is also just awful to use. It had some fun uses in WvW, but that was thanks to core Ele rather than Catalyst. Weaver or Tempest could do the same thing or even better. If you wanted this spec to be a "frontliner" like the trailer said, then it just did not reach that mark. Most of the animations were boring, the sound design was way worse than Tempest, the traits were terribly boring. Everything about this e-spec needs another look. This is the only e-spec where if Anet came out and said "Lol, jk. Here is the real Ele spec!" I wouldn't even be mad. All of it's utilities skills are also terrible. Even with the stipulation, they're just awful and mostly boring. Change everything. 
  2. Untamed - I never liked or really even played Bunny Thumper, so I was kind of excited to try out Untamed after the stream. I want to also admit that I didn't play this one as much because of it coming with Thief and Engineer, the e-spec I was looking forward to (Specter) and my main since the three day headstart (Engineer). It just didn't do what I think it was meant to do. The wombo combos turned out to be "do this to deal any damage" and the unleash mechanic felt very limited. Hammer felt too important and if you wanted to use anything else, you were better off just using Soulbeast or even Core. The limitation on Pet diversity was kind of lame. Some of the utilities needed a lot more work. The cleanse one and the trap one mostly. The knockdown mushroom utility was the only fun one, but was also just difficult to use since you had to clip into the enemy to really use it. Overall, I think the spec leaned too hard in the CC part of it and not hard enough in the pet part of it. The Ranger forums are usually either "MOAR PETS!" or "REMOVE PETS!" for e-specs and I don't think Untamed satisfied either of those. Make Hammer combos more impactful, add pet diversity, fix utilities to be less simple and/or stronger, change the Unleashed animation. Not entirely sure what this elite-spec is suppose to actually be. Especially with how clearly defined Soulbeast and Druid are. 
  3. Virtuoso - This e-spec feels like a low-level caster in a generic MMO. The defensive trait line was the only one with any fun interactions. The GM traits were "meh" at best such as Bloodsong. I'm totally fine with getting rid of clones even though it's part of the reason why I consider Mesmer to be one of the most interesting classes in any MMO. But, they should be replaced with something that isn't essentially clones with a cast time. There are other downsides to them compared to clones, too. When I was playing Virtuoso and started to have some fun with some strange build, I switched to Mirage and was instantly having more fun because Mirage offers mechanics that core Mesmer doesn't.
  4. Vindicator - This is where I personally feel like the base ideas of the e-spec are mostly fine, but the execution is lackluster. I like the idea of a Dragoon in GW2. I also play a lot of Mirage and didn't mind the new dodge or only having one. But, Renegade is better in pretty much every way. Their F2 is boring, unlike Renegades F2-4. Any single F[x] skill on Renegade is more interesting (and usually useful) than Vindicator's F2 skill of gaining 50 Endurance and flipping if you're on Alliance. Kalla's utility skills may have not been the most exciting. But, at least they all did what you wanted them to do and were all useful. Vindicator needs another F3 skill that is actually fun to push. Forerunner of Death needs serious number tuning. It's asks way too much of the Revenant. And, it feels awful to use in Open World PvE. It takes a lot for something to feel bad for me in Open World PvE. But, I couldn't with Vindicator when I had to pay 150 Endurance for a dodge and lackluster attack. Remove the flip mechanic, add F3 with literally anything, and rethink the GM traits. 
  5. Willbender - I think a large part of why Willbender didn't feel great is because of numbers tuning and, more importantly, animations. If Willbender is suppose to be cross-classed as a Thief (Daredevil), then it missed one of Thief's biggest and most fun advantages. Thief is fast. You can port all over the place with little-to-no cast times or animations. I'm not suggesting Willbender should be a blue Thief. But, the comparison really highlights why Rushing Justice felt terrible. OH Sword was "fine" even though it didn't feel like a Guardian weapon. The Physical utilities were also fine. It's fine you combine them that it really makes the e-spec feel slower than it has to be. Something as simple as speeding up and/or reducing the animations will do a ton for Willbender. I actually think the GM traits are fairly okay, which is not how I feel about most e-specs. Number tuning and animation fixes are the biggest part for me. 
  6. Mechanist - I find the spec disappointing as an Engineer main because I wanted something more. When the rename bug came out before the e-spec reveal, I was then hoping it was more than just a pet-spec. That's all Mechanist is. It's Core Engineer with a pet. Kits are still the optimal way to play. The Mechanist has a mind on its own. BUT! I do realize the "value" of having an e-spec that essentially has the easiest skill floor we've seen in any spec/class. You can run full signets if you want and be totally successful in most areas of the game. The gap between the skill floor and ceiling is massive in this game. Legit, we're talking about a difference of like 500% or more. The Mechanist closes that gap a lot by shifting so much power to the mech. It has a cool theme and can be fun to watch the mech do its thing. I really think the mech needs more customization. Dyes would be huge, but new models would be amazing. I feel like that's a bit hopeful, though. I worry about it's future due to the easier skill floor. But, I do appreciate that a lot of people enjoy the spec due to it as well. 
  7. Bladesworn - I thought the idea of Bladesworn was a lot of fun. I admit that I would rank this lower if I mained Warrior. Playing it in casual PvE was usually fun. But, the more I played it, the more its issues popped up. The hitbox for the Dragon Triggers all need to fixed. Especially for Force. They're too easily dodged, especially in PvP. Boost has serious terrain issues. Flicker Step needs some kind of animation. Maybe something like a tear drop or something commonly used to symbolize "zen". I really want MH Pistol on it. But, admittedly only because I think OH Pistol is so cool. The explosions on it sound and look so good. Even with just 2 skills, I enjoy how they work together. I just want more! The actual kit on it is interesting, but the numbers felt really low outside of Dragon Trigger. I think the damage on Dragon Trigger needs to be lowered some and that damage redistributed to the rest of Bladesworn. It should still be the big payoff. But, the relatively low damage on the rest of the skills to accommodate DT's exceptionally high damage makes everything feel bad just for a single use skill (or two with a trait) that has a ton of its own issues. I think the gunsaber is too cool to be relegated to "use this while you wait for Flow". Also! Increase base Flow generation and then change the Flow augment. It felt essentially mandatory to take that utility since so much of Bladesworn's potential is solely in Dragon Trigger. I think the two fence utility skills could be combined and a new utility added. I also didn't understand the trait Fierce as Fire since it felt kind of random to have a single Condi trait. Fix Dragon Trigger issues, reallocate some Dragon Trigger damage, increase base Flow, combine both fence utilities. It had some fun highs, but some really bad lows. 
  8. Harbinger - I like that Harbinger took the usual Shroud mechanics and flipped them. I don't know if it's more interesting than how Scourge uses Shroud. But, it's at least new to Necromancer. The UI for it needed a lot of tweaking since it was kind of difficult to read at a quick glance. I also think the Blight mechanic as a whole was too simple. It also wasn't as impactful as I kind of hoped. It was a defensive loss to the Necromancer. But, Necro is so bulky with utilities and traits that isn't wasn't a big deal to run a stat set such as Vipers. The Elixirs are boring. The icons for them are boring. The effects were boring. I think Vile Vials and Twisted Medicine should just be baseline. I'd prefer more "dangerous" concoctions. The symbol for the class has a typical demon eye symbol in it used in a lot of media, yet the results are just boons. I want to drink something that greatly harms the Necro aside from Blight, but also devastates the nearby enemies. I think Anet played it way too safe with the Blight mechanic and greatly underestimated Necro's defensive prowess. I would go as far as to suggest that all Elixirs should be reworked with a "Risk vs Reward" in mind since currently they're just "Minor Risk vs Okay Reward". Fun Shroud, Blight has little impact on actual play, Elixirs are super boring, the spec's design space is too safe compared to what it could have been.
  9. Specter - This was my favorite. I've been wanting something like this for Thief since early HoT. It's quite buggy. I worry that due to targeting, it won't see play in areas that Thief is already having trouble in. But! It's so much fun in WvW and casual PvE. The adept traits need a DPS trait. The Wells need a longer range and/or shorter cast times because they feel too much like Jaunt at the moment. So close to being a useful movement skill, but still teeters on the side of just using the Well and then dealing with the movement. Well of Tears is pointless partly because of this. Anet usually goes with "this is a caster, so it's slow" idea. But, I think Specter should really just drop that idea completely and be a quick caster. If there is any class that would have a quick caster, it should be Thief. Scepter 2, for example, is too slow (and boring). The dual skills were both pretty good. Quicker e-spec with reduced cast times, balancing of traits, adept DPS trait, make Wells more useful as a movement skill and not just an affect-utility, a lot of the Shroud skills need cast-time and animation touch-ups. 

Overall, these specs were quite hit-or-miss with me. I think they all need a lot of work, even my favorites. But, there are some really great ideas there. I also want to mention that I do not like when e-specs try to be three things at once. This really limits build creativity. I'd like to see elite-specs with clearly defined roles that they can fill in creative ways. 

The next beta is going to be extremely important. It's going to show if Anet is listening/reading feedback and how much they're willing to change their own ideas. I'm not saying my feedback is the best way or that everything has to change. I think some changes I want are unrealistic. But, a lot of these e-specs need to see massive growths or people are going to really write them off more than they already are. Really looking forward to it!

Another issue that I've seen commonly mentioned are the general themes of EoD specs compared to HoT and PoF. I understand that HoT and PoF specs have changed and been more refined over the years (usually meaning they actually lost something such as Chrono) and that we're only seeing a beta for the EoD specs. The EoDs feel really "safe" in their themes and mechanics compared to previous e-specs. Reaper is a lot like Core Necro. You go into Shroud to get new skills and the AA is very powerful in both. The Reaper shouts aren't that exciting. Yet Reaper is a fan-favorite for many. Because the way it feels to play a Reaper due to heavy themes and proper execution still allowed it to stand on its own. Even though Harbinger plays differently to a Core Necro relative to a Reaper does, Reaper still feels less "rushed" because of this. Reaper has tasteful traits and knows what it is. It doesn't have a "Deal more Condi damage" trait. It has a trait to allows you to Chill more effectively and then a GM to turn Chill into a Bleed for condi damage. Harbinger has "deal more condi damage with Blight stacks." That's just not exciting and it doesn't really change anything. It's just a bonus on what you were already doing. A lot of the EoD e-specs feel like this relative to their previous e-specs. Not that previous e-specs didn't also do this. Just not nearly as often as EoD specs. I'm also not saying theming is more important than effectiveness. Reaper was often excluded from the highest play because of it. Just that those should both be considered in designed, and the "themes" or creativity for a lot of EoD isn't there. A lot of the traits for EoD specs you just don't interact with. This is really my biggest general issue with EoD elite spec design. 

Edited by SkyCakeLight.3750
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On 10/1/2021 at 5:04 PM, Raiken.1476 said:

1. Bladesworn

2. Harbinger

3. Virtuoso

4. Catalyst

5. Willbender

6. A simple power buff for the revenant

7. Power Renegade getting a 100 dps increase from a bug fix

8. Revenant players being flat out told they're not getting a new elite because renegade is strong enough

100. Vindicator

wtk does people see in bladesworn? the weeb pose? would you like it better with a naruto run? Is it the technological aspect of gluing a shotgun to a sword? or  the "Magical bullets" because gluing a shotgun to a sword is so stupid you need magic to make it work? or the fact that none of the stated above has any meaning because at the end of the day it doesn't really shoot more than throwing axes and you end up with another more clunky greatsword? It really puzzles me what the cat does people see in bladeswan...

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5 hours ago, Mesket.5728 said:

wtk does people see in bladesworn? the weeb pose? would you like it better with a naruto run? Is it the technological aspect of gluing a shotgun to a sword? or  the "Magical bullets" because gluing a shotgun to a sword is so stupid you need magic to make it work? or the fact that none of the stated above has any meaning because at the end of the day it doesn't really shoot more than throwing axes and you end up with another more clunky greatsword? It really puzzles me what the cat does people see in bladeswan...

Not talking about that poster in particular, but you know, people who don't want to face warriors a lot "bull's charge knocks me down boohoo" will obviously state that BsW, the peak of unplayable warrior, is good and needs no changes.

 

Aside from visuals (and those are very very questinable) I have not seen one comment trukly elaborating why BsW is a good spec. Fun gameplay for half and hour oneshotting PvE vets leaves a good impression for something to play once per 2 months to chill. But what about that spec being your only option with a new expac for comp environments?

 

Yeah...SIKE

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On 11/9/2021 at 11:31 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Aside from visuals (and those are very very questinable) I have not seen one comment trukly elaborating why BsW is a good spec. Fun gameplay for half and hour oneshotting PvE vets leaves a good impression for something to play once per 2 months to chill. But what about that spec being your only option with a new expac for comp environments?

 

Yeah...SIKE

Okay, as someone who has been vocal about enjoying the spec in competitive modes, I’ll explain why I find the especially fun, since I realized I’ve never actually elaborated on that. 
Note: I do think it needs significant changes, specifically to its numbers and traits, but I like the core of the class. 
First, it plays well as a mid range. Via the 3/4 skills and high-travel speed movement skills, it is a good kiter+has okay burst at mid range. When combined with the core of warrior, this gives a play style I enjoy.

Second; Dragon Trigger. I basically only used boost to assist in the high-movement speed play style, creating range and landing stuns in which I could burst with the 3/4 skills. The fun part of the skill is that you have a variable window of activation. Players will dodge at variable times, so if they dodge at first activation, you can charge to get a longer stun (since the damage change was negligible), if they double dodge, then they are very vulnerable. This gives a variety of activation patterns that can be used as good bait. It’s also worth using dragon trigger to bait bursts, cancel and doge the more obvious burst they set up, then counter pressure. All of this I found rather enjoyable and rather different from how warrior plays on other specs.

So that’s what I enjoyed about the actual gameplay. I found a decent amount of success once I passed the 15 hour mark (before 10 hours was really brutal though), dueling players I know are of a higher-skill level and solo roaming. Yes, it was weak. Yes, the traits are very 1 dimensional and leave much to be desired, but I don’t personally think the core mechanic is deeply flawed like everyone else does. And, again, I completely understand that basically everyone else disagrees with me, which is fine, because having different opinions is healthy 🙂 

It is worth noting that what 
 @Mesket.5728

asked about why someone would like this class are none of the reasons I enjoy it. I do agree it’s somewhat clunky, but I don’t think it’s that bad, and don’t think it’s unfixable. 

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On 10/28/2021 at 9:31 PM, Monarc.9726 said:

Depends on the game mode, but my experience (I play tested all of them, some more than others) was that none of the e-specs were very far along, some probably not even worth beta testing. I can't think of any new e-spec that would compete with the current meta specs. Maybe they weren't meant to be polished and it was just a taste, but if that's the case I'm concerned there isn't enough time to finish them before release. Some of the specs, Willbender comes to mind, need a complete overhaul. 

It’s worth remembering there’s several months before release. Other Xpacs had betas about a month before release. So there’s a lot more time between the betas and release compared to the last Xpacs. 

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7 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Okay, as someone who has been vocal about enjoying the spec in competitive modes, I’ll explain why I find the especially fun, since I realized I’ve never actually elaborated on that. 
Note: I do think it needs significant changes, specifically to its numbers and traits, but I like the core of the class. 
First, it plays well as a mid range. Via the 3/4 skills and high-travel speed movement skills, it is a good kiter+has okay burst at mid range. When combined with the core of warrior, this gives a play style I enjoy.

Second; Dragon Trigger. I basically only used boost to assist in the high-movement speed play style, creating range and landing stuns in which I could burst with the 3/4 skills. The fun part of the skill is that you have a variable window of activation. Players will dodge at variable times, so if they dodge at first activation, you can charge to get a longer stun (since the damage change was negligible), if they double dodge, then they are very vulnerable. This gives a variety of activation patterns that can be used as good bait. It’s also worth using dragon trigger to bait bursts, cancel and doge the more obvious burst they set up, then counter pressure. All of this I found rather enjoyable and rather different from how warrior plays on other specs.

So that’s what I enjoyed about the actual gameplay. I found a decent amount of success once I passed the 15 hour mark (before 10 hours was really brutal though), dueling players I know are of a higher-skill level and solo roaming. Yes, it was weak. Yes, the traits are very 1 dimensional and leave much to be desired, but I don’t personally think the core mechanic is deeply flawed like everyone else does. And, again, I completely understand that basically everyone else disagrees with me, which is fine, because having different opinions is healthy 🙂 

It is worth noting that what 
 @Mesket.5728

asked about why someone would like this class are none of the reasons I enjoy it. I do agree it’s somewhat clunky, but I don’t think it’s that bad, and don’t think it’s unfixable. 

😩

I respect it.

It's just that for too long now have we had a hard time with warrior. I don't envy another punishing playstyle. No matter the skill I put into it. I don't care about becoming the bet roamer, I just want to roam and have fun.

 

If they want to give BsW more meaningful movement, add more movement in utilities a well. But it's too late for that..

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10 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

😩

I respect it.

It's just that for too long now have we had a hard time with warrior. I don't envy another punishing playstyle. No matter the skill I put into it. I don't care about becoming the bet roamer, I just want to roam and have fun.

 

If they want to give BsW more meaningful movement, add more movement in utilities a well. But it's too late for that..

That’s a perfectly fair opinion. The criticisms of bladesworn are all very justifiable.

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