I whant to put my legendary greatsword in my inventory it is that simpel!

[Quench.7091]

46 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Some people use different weapons for pre-combat preparations than they use in the combat they are preparing for.

Now, with the Legendary Armoury, they have to re-configure their legendary weapons between preparations and combat, losing time of the buffs etc they applied.

For example, you could have Guardians who use Empower on Staff before combat and then Switch out out for Greatsword, so they can be in combat with Greatsword and Sword/Focus.

This kind of gameplay is now severely hampered, if the weapon that gets switches to is a Legendary.

As far as I know, doing this was/is very popular with many high-end players, who usually also are the people with more legendaries.

I do understand the boon weapon thing. However, I feel like those people should have a dedicated build template and weapon template just for that alone. It's sad to say, but it feels like templates are more than just a convenience in this area. You get to maximize those boon durations with boon sigils/runes, concentration, and traits. There are keybindings to swap between these things quickly! There's a lot to gain from that if it's something people do frequently.

It feels like if the equipment/build template system were more readily accessible to people on the F2P side of things, weapon swapping complaints would be lessened greatly.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Quench.7091

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Some people use different weapons for pre-combat preparations than they use in the combat they are preparing for.

 

That's not the intended design of the game.  There's a reason you're limited to two weapon sets in a build.  You circumvent this opportunity cost by inventory swapping other weapons to create a "3rd" or "4th" weapon slot in the same build.

 

Intended design is that you're two sets are the tools you bring to the fight.  Else, there would be more actual weapon sets in a single build for you to swap around with.   

Guardians using staff to buff then hot-swapping greatsword in for the DPS isn't intended design.  By having the utility of staff you give up a weapon set dedicated to DPS.  So, the argument that legendary armory upsets gameplay should be corrected to "Legendary Armory design upsets unintended gameplay."

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Guardians using staff to buff then hot-swapping greatsword in for the DPS isn't intended design.  By having the utility of staff you give up a weapon set dedicated to DPS.  So, the argument that legendary armory upsets gameplay should be corrected to "Legendary Armory design upsets unintended gameplay."

The Legendary Armoury isn't even trying to combat that "unintended design", which Arenanet never even cared about since release.

If they actually cared about that "unintended design" they could have implemented simple solutions, like:

- having boons put players in combat

- preventing players from switching out weapons that have skills on cooldown

 

The Legendary Armoury's will just cause people to Ascended and Exotic equipment if they feel the need to use the "unintended design".

 

And then you have players that don't use pre-combat preparations, but abandoning their legendaries anyway, because the convenience is gone. Many people simply don't want to bother re-selecting everything every time.

For me, the static Exotic shield in my bag is far more convenient than my Flameseeker Prophecies now, if I ever want to use a Shield on my Guardian.

 

In short: The inconvenience posed by forcing players to use the Legendary Armoury hurts everyone who uses legendaries, while doing literally nothing against the "unintended design".

1 hour ago, Quench.7091 said:

I do understand the boon weapon thing. However, I feel like those people should have a dedicated build template and weapon template just for that alone. It's sad to say, but it feels like templates are more than just a convenience in this area. You get to maximize those boon durations with boon sigils/runes, concentration, and traits. There are keybindings to swap between these things quickly! There's a lot to gain from that if it's something people do frequently.
It feels like if the equipment/build template system were more readily accessible to people on the F2P side of things, weapon swapping complaints would be lessened greatly.

 

I do not think that people should have to dedicate a full equipment template loadout just to switch one weapon.

Arenanet simply is giving us too few too expensive templates loadouts for that.

For that idea to work, we would need to have the maximum increased to at least 20, with at least five of them being free (instead of measly two).

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Quench.7091]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I do not think that people should have to dedicate a full equipment template loadout just to switch one weapon.

Arenanet simply is giving us too few too expensive templates loadouts for that.

For that idea to work, we would need to have the maximum increased to at least 20, with at least five of them being free (instead of measly two).

They don't need to, but it's optimal as well as comfortable.

I agree that that there are too few templates, but it's because I play multiple game modes. I don't use half of my builds in PvE and I don't use half of my builds in WvW/PvP.  It's going to get worse as more elite specializations are introduced into the game. If they had 6 build templates per game mode, I'd be happy.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Seeing how you can not prebuff in raids, strikes or cm 100, it appears this is an unintended behavior and anet will not help accommodate it.

[Calador.2804]

The solution to this problem is extremely simple but I don't think ANET has any reason to change the system because they want us to purchase templates to perform swaps. They could easily make it so that if you drag and drop the legendary item into your inventory it simply disables that legendary unlock for that one character/weapon and now it acts like the old setup. This soulbound copy would not be able to be broken down or stored anywhere other than on that one characters weapon slot or inventory (excluding shared inventory), in order to prevent people from spawning multiple copies and dual wielding one legendary.

 

This change would allow players to setup a few legendary weapons with the correct sigil / stat combo and then when playing the game perform weapon swaps from their inventory window instead of templates. Unfortunately there is no monetary reason for ANET to make this change, and this would de-incentivize some to buy templates.

[sevenDEADLY.5281]

17 hours ago, Perisemiotics.4579 said:

Fact: the leg. armory as implemented, doubling down on the abusive, obtrusive implementation (and monetization) of build and equipment loadouts, is a _major_ step back in terms of both "convenience" and "rewarding players for their legendary journey."

 

You can twist it over and over any and every way you want, but the simple fact remains.

imagine being so self unaware that you think your opinion is a fact.

[Fueki.4753]

47 minutes ago, sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

imagine being so self unaware that you think your opinion is a fact.

The opinion that it's been implemented this way to boost template loadout sales aside,

it objectively is an inconvenience that people now have to reassemble their legendary gear every time they switch it out.

It is inconvenient that we can't freely choose which legendaries we want to store in the armoury and which we don't want to store in it.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Chichimec.9364]

We've had several of these discussions posted now and the point each time seem to be the same. A number of people are unable or unwilling to buy the extra equipment templates that would enable them to swap their legendary weapons more conveniently. Some of those people also do not want to use the obvious workaround of equipping ascended weapons. So these folks want Anet to change the way the Legendary Armory works.

By now, I expect that Anet has heard that reaction. Whether or not they will make such changes is anybody's guess.  Do we need to keep talking/arguing about all this? That is a real question by the way as I'm not sure what actually moves Anet to action. Does extended arguing here on the forum do that? If so, then the people who feel strongly about this should keep pushing the issue. If not, why bother hashing out the same old thing over and over again?

Edited August 7, 2021 by Chichimec.9364

[Perisemiotics.4579]

4 hours ago, sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

imagine being so self unaware that you think your opinion is a fact.

imagine not being able to tell an opinion from a fact... imagine no longer.

[Rogue.8235]

13 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The Legendary Armoury isn't even trying to combat that "unintended design", which Arenanet never even cared about since release.

 

No, it is merely not accommodating unintended gameplay.  Your attempting to argue for support of unintended gameplay. 

13 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

f they actually cared about that "unintended design" they could have implemented simple solutions, like:

- having boons put players in combat

- preventing players from switching out weapons that have skills on cooldown

 

1st solution would not work.   being put into combat merely because you walked near another player goes against one of their design philosophies in that you should always be happy to see another player.

2nd solution seems to be a modification to one of the foundational systems of the game.  This is well beyond the scope of the problem now.  so of course they won't do that, and also, this is not a simple solution.  You're concept of information systems architecture is a little off.

13 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The Legendary Armoury's will just cause people to Ascended and Exotic equipment if they feel the need to use the "unintended design".

 

exactly, they are not supporting it.

 

13 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And then you have players that don't use pre-combat preparations, but abandoning their legendaries anyway, because the convenience is gone. Many people simply don't want to bother re-selecting everything every time.

 

 

Counterpoint.  The convenience is there and many players are now pursuing legendary gear.  Baseless claims with a subjective premise are true if their exact counter is also true.  Else, we acknowledge the invalid nature of such claims.

Id est, you don't know what the majority of other players do.  You also can't assert your own personal opinion onto the majority of the player base.

 

 

13 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

In short: The inconvenience posed by forcing players to use the Legendary Armoury hurts everyone who uses legendaries, while doing literally nothing against the "unintended design"

 

Again, this is a baseless claim based on an invalid premise.  you assert every player now instead of just most.  Your arguments are are becoming increasingly exaggerated while still being completely unfounded.

 

It's not supporting the unintended gameplay, because, of course, that gameplay is not intended by ArenaNet.  

Your concept of "literally nothing" is fallacious.

You are arguing for support of effectively having 3-4 weapon sets on a build instead of the 2 by design.  

What I'm arguing is that the game intended for you to have 2 sets of weapons at a time, not 3 or 4.

[Haishao.6851]

1 hour ago, Rogue.8235 said:

  

What I'm arguing is that the game intended for you to have 2 sets of weapons at a time, not 3 or 4.

Thanks for your input but what you're talking about is something completely different that has nothing to do with the topic. 

 

 

[Rogue.8235]

4 hours ago, Haishao.6851 said:

Thanks for your input but what you're talking about is something completely different that has nothing to do with the topic. 

 

 

So why is it necessary for you to have the legendary in your inventory and not in the armory?  if you use just the two weapon sets in your build without swapping a weapon from your inventory to create a pseudo 3rd weapon set, then why do you really need the weapon in your inventory?

 

If the argument is not enough equipment templates, that's not a limitation of the armory but of the template system.  

 

Your asking for an overhaul of the legendary armory system based on the swapping of weapons from inventory right?  And you do this because you're using the inventory as a pseudo 3rd weapon set.  That's not the limitation of the armory.

 

The tactics you describe, especially of the guardian staff, are things that cannot be done in PvP.  This is because in PvP you can only use the weapons in your build, which is limited to two weapon sets.  As intended.

 

I don't see any reasonable argument here to change the system, which is convenient as is.  I don't care for my equipment to be in my inventory, that would be inconvenient.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Westenev.5289 said:

. It's frustrating because every time I unequip my dreamer (which was made specifically for my thief, before that I used an exotic shortbow), the sigils and infusions spew into my inventory and I have to fix that every time I want to reequip my shortbow.

Yeah, I suspect that this is really the main issue - it's not just the stat-swapping on its own, it's also the fact that you need to reapply sigils, infusions, transmutations if appropriate, and so often every time you do.

 

And sometimes, it's a pretty minor tweak to your setup that really isn't a new build or "unintended gameplay" as some people in this thread are talking about. For instance, I generally end up bannerslaving for my raid static, and the power build can involve using axe/axe and mace/mace, axe/axe and axe/mace, or just straight axe/ and /axe depending on how much CC is needed. This usually involves no other changes to the build whatsoever apart from increasing or reducing the number of maces equipped. Now, I'm still using ascended for my maces, but someone who had committed to legendary weapons might be a little ticked off at having to potentially reconfigure their maces multiple times in a raiding session.

 

I don't think it'd be unreasonable to be able to copy an account-bound legendary item into your inventory with rune/sigil(s), infusion(s), and skin intact. Just need to have a check to make sure you can't load that copy into an equipment build template that's already reached your account's quota of that legendary item.

[Cuks.8241]

In my opinion weapon switching is a core feature of this game and one of the things that makes the game good. Choose the weapon that suits the occasion. It adds depth and flexibility in the game. It's not just pre buffing in raids, it's a thing in many aspects of the game, wvw, open world. 

I don't think simple weapon switching should require equipment template. Those are limited and can be filled very quickly, especially if you play multiple game modes. Also 500 gems for a simple weapon swap.

If possible this should be somehow enabled for the legendary weapons without the need to reconfigure the weapon every time you do it. Maybe they can add character specific or equipment template specific weapon preset configurations in the legendary armory.

Build and equipment load out flexibility  is something this games shines at and something Anet should strive for. 

[Rogue.8235]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, I suspect that this is really the main issue - it's not just the stat-swapping on its own, it's also the fact that you need to reapply sigils, infusions, transmutations if appropriate, and so often every time you do.

 

And sometimes, it's a pretty minor tweak to your setup that really isn't a new build or "unintended gameplay" as some people in this thread are talking about. For instance, I generally end up bannerslaving for my raid static, and the power build can involve using axe/axe and mace/mace, axe/axe and axe/mace, or just straight axe/ and /axe depending on how much CC is needed. This usually involves no other changes to the build whatsoever apart from increasing or reducing the number of maces equipped. Now, I'm still using ascended for my maces, but someone who had committed to legendary weapons might be a little ticked off at having to potentially reconfigure their maces multiple times in a raiding session.

 

 

In you're axe-mace example, you are circumventing the trade-off of two weapon sets.  It would appear that weapons are balanced around utility and damage, and that a weapon should not have copious amounts of both.  That's the trade-off.  Your attempting to have all the damage and all the cc on demand.  Builds are not designed to give you >2 weapon sets so that you can have everything you want whenever you want.  Just like you have to choose which skills to equip.  You don't have access to every skill all the time.

 

Switching utilities is seen as changing a build (I assume).  When you change weapons from inventory, this changes half your skills.  How is this not a different build?  I keep trying to understand the core issue here, and I keep arriving at the template system, not the legendary system, being the culprit.  

 

If you had access to 30 build and equipment templates, would you have the issue you're facing now?  If you had 40?  50?  I ask because it seems that the limitation is not the legendary armory, but the template system.  

 

You want changes that will revert a convenience that other players enjoy. 

That, or an implementation of simultaneously having the new legendary system and the old item system.  I'm not even sure how that would even work on the back-end, even on just a conceptual level.  You want one thing to be two things simultaneously (if that is what you're arguing for).  That's going to create many problems, and not because of "spaghetti code" but because this solution is spaghetti.

 

Essentially:

1. If you have to alter your build, that is what the template system is for.  Legendary gear works well with the template system.

2. If you are swapping weapons to circumvent the trade-off of only having two weapon sets, you're trying to avoid the balance of trade-offs in skill design.  You're trying to have it all in one build rather than trading some of A for some of B.

3. If there are not enough template slots, or template slots are too expensive, this is an argument that does not involve changing the legendary armory (and is one I agree with.  We need more templates and cheaper templates).

 

 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think it'd be unreasonable to be able to copy an account-bound legendary item into your inventory with rune/sigil(s), infusion(s), and skin intact. Just need to have a check to make sure you can't load that copy into an equipment build template that's already reached your account's quota of that legendary item.

 

 

Okay, so this is making multiple instances of "items" that must be tracked and continously reconciled.  The locations of these "items" are always changing, requiring elegant reconciliation.  You are arguing for both the legendary armory system and the old item system for legendaries.

 

As mentioned above, this is a conceptual mess before it even gets to be coded.  You need an instance of data to be multiple instances simultaneously, in different data-types, stored in different systems, operated by different systems, all simultaneously and all without a chance that something could go wrong.  If anything does go wrong, people start having their lelegendaries disappear, or multiple legendaries can appear to cause system instability or exploits.  

 

When data is input into an information system, it remains as that one instance of data.  It is used in many ways, but exists only in one instance.  You're asking for multiple instanced streams of the same data set, essentially asking for data to esxist as multiple instances.

 

Technically, ArenaNet can do this.  They would have to halt most other projects and rebuild how the game interprets data, but they could do it.  This kind of project is ineasible and beyond the scope of reasonableness.

 

Trying to find an analogy.  You just finish building a house.  Now you want to compltely change the first floor without affecting the second and third floors.  Yeah, that's not going to happen.

[Kolzi.5928]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:30 PM, Quench.7091 said:

I'm not too sure why people need to swap weapons so frequently within a single build. Most traits, runes, and sigils seem to heavily benefit a specific weapon type. I can see perhaps buffs being wanted before a battle starts, but high duration buffs require concentration anyways. Changing a weapon in a build should have a laundry list of things to change, but maybe that's just because of the professions I play?

Just a couple of examples, you might want to quickly swap weapons to buff (like using a warhorn for swiftness), or to blast a combo field for say stealth or might. You also might want to swap on a ranged weapon temporarily then go back to your normal weapon set after a fight. Heck, maybe you just want to take a screenshot with a different weapon type equipped.

[Kolzi.5928]

1 hour ago, Rogue.8235 said:

In you're axe-mace example, you are circumventing the trade-off of two weapon sets.  It would appear that weapons are balanced around utility and damage, and that a weapon should not have copious amounts of both.  That's the trade-off.  Your attempting to have all the damage and all the cc on demand.  Builds are not designed to give you >2 weapon sets so that you can have everything you want whenever you want.  Just like you have to choose which skills to equip.  You don't have access to every skill all the time.

 

You aren't having every skill at the same time. Being able to buff out of combat has always been possible and for a range of gameplay modes, has even been integral to the way people play the game. Being able to say, use warhorn 4 for swiftness on warrior while out of combat is markedly different from being able to buff it in combat and also remove movement-impairing conditions AND have access to warhorn 5 and the use of warhorn traits. That's not using 3 weapon sets.

 

If they actually wanted to disincentivize it, they could put a cooldown on swapping weapons while out of combat or something (I should hope they don't do that). The current system doesn't disincentivize it so much as it just makes legendaries less convenient to use. You can still do the exact same thing you are complaining about with ascended weaponry right now with no issue.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Kolzi.5928 said:

 

You aren't having every skill at the same time. Being able to buff out of combat has always been possible and for a range of gameplay modes, has even been integral to the way people play the game. Being able to say, use warhorn 4 for swiftness on warrior while out of combat is markedly different from being able to buff it in combat and also remove movement-impairing conditions AND have access to warhorn 5 and the use of warhorn traits. That's not using 3 weapon sets.

 

If they actually wanted to disincentivize it, they could put a cooldown on swapping weapons while out of combat or something (I should hope they don't do that). The current system doesn't disincentivize it so much as it just makes legendaries less convenient to use. You can still do the exact same thing you are complaining about with ascended weaponry right now with no issue.

This. I'm not changing weapon sets inside a particular raid encounter, but in order to adjust for the needs of a specific encounter (example: all damage against Mursaat Overseer, while wanting to bust out that chain of five hard CCs in quick succession against Samarog). I'm pretty sure that making small alterations to your build in response to the circumstances of different bosses is intended behaviour.

 

Yes, one could argue that swapping a weapon is equivalent to swapping out a utility skill - but that's the point. Swapping out a utility skill is something that can take two clicks. If changing a single weapon means reapplying stats, sigils, and infusions every time... well, that's a lot more than two clicks. I think it's reasonable to ask for systems to be put in place to make changing a weapon to be as easy as changing a utility skill.

And if all you're doing is changing a weapon or a utility skill, that's really not worth using an equipment template that we're charged 500 gems for.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Okay, so this is making multiple instances of "items" that must be tracked and continously reconciled.  The locations of these "items" are always changing, requiring elegant reconciliation.  You are arguing for both the legendary armory system and the old item system for legendaries.

 

As mentioned above, this is a conceptual mess before it even gets to be coded.  You need an instance of data to be multiple instances simultaneously, in different data-types, stored in different systems, operated by different systems, all simultaneously and all without a chance that something could go wrong.  If anything does go wrong, people start having their lelegendaries disappear, or multiple legendaries can appear to cause system instability or exploits.  

 

When data is input into an information system, it remains as that one instance of data.  It is used in many ways, but exists only in one instance.  You're asking for multiple instanced streams of the same data set, essentially asking for data to esxist as multiple instances.

 

The system already has a check for whether an equipment template already has an instance of a particular legendary in the template. Adding the spawned copy of the Legendary from inventory could simply run the same check, and forbid the action if that would involve having too many.

 

There may be added complexities in the code... but it might not be as complex as you claim it is. The thing about suggestions is that ultimately ArenaNet can evaluate the suggestions for themselves, and they can distinguish between "that'd be far too complicated to be worthwhile" and "dang, didn't think of that, we could probably do that in an afternoon and ship after appropriate testing" better than either of us.

Edited August 8, 2021 by draxynnic.3719
Expanded first section.

[Rogue.8235]

I'm of the mindset that the armory highlights the deficiencies of the template system.    Devs need to add more templates and templates should be cheaper.    I think the armory is fine as is.  It's the template system that is too restrictive.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 8/6/2021 at 1:46 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

500 gems is 150g or 5 worths of ascended. It's neither a design mistake or neglection: It's meant to make you play the game. Because gold is the purpose of PvE. It's not like every character you have suddenly need to juggle a dozen different weapon sets just because you built a legendary, is it?

Which is why I mean it's perfectly thought through. Why does people even build legendaries in the first place and in particular, how can they possibly affort it???

Or just spend 35g on an ascended with the legendary skin and forget about the issue.

also for these "hardcore" guys that is always in need to swapping 10845871487 templates and buildings, 150g is just a tip.

[Kondor.2904]

Those who think current templates resolve this issue probably do not realize the amount of  templates you would need to freely use all the weapon and sigil switching combinations on different builds/elite specs. Spolier: it's way more than 6. 

I am really grateful I decided to postpone legendary sigil crafting, that would have been such a pain. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Quench.7091]

3 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I'm of the mindset that the armory highlights the deficiencies of the template system.    Devs need to add more templates and templates should be cheaper.    I think the armory is fine as is.  It's the template system that is too restrictive.

I'm too of this mindset. 

 

However, I suppose there is one change they could toss in the direction of the weapon swappers, regardless of my thoughts. It might be easy to treat legendary weapon stats and sigil selection like dye slots, where the dyes linger in the background while a channel isn't being used. It would be better than just a blank slate and wouldn't require heavy UI changes. It might not even use anymore memory than it already does, as the currently equipped legendary setups already are stored somewhere.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Quench.7091

[Malystryx.4172]

I have to ask... For those against the legendary armory, and I will almost certainly regret asking this, but if you don't like it... Just use ascended. If you have multiple legendaries to where this is a pain for you, you likely have enough ascended to just use those as your pseudo legendaries. Boom, problem solved. 

 

You don't have to use the actual legendary item. Just the skin. Personally, while the system has its flaws, it is far far more convenient for me now

 

The biggest annoyance is the lack of an permanent ascended salvage kit... 

 

Edit: To add, if my scepter on my DH didn't reset when I swapped a template, now I'd have to change it on my CFb. Like.... Some of you are making an argument you clearly aren't thinking through. If the armory saved it as berserker, now I have to change it manually to vipers. And vice versa when I move builds. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Malystryx.4172

[draxynnic.3719]

53 minutes ago, Malystryx.4172 said:

Edit: To add, if my scepter on my DH didn't reset when I swapped a template, now I'd have to change it on my CFb. Like.... Some of you are making an argument you clearly aren't thinking through. If the armory saved it as berserker, now I have to change it manually to vipers. And vice versa when I move builds. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting to change the way legendary equipment works across multiple templates.

Just that if you remove a piece of equipment from the template, you can save a copy of how that piece of equipment was set up in your inventory so you can put it BACK when you no longer need whatever item you replaced it with. Or perhaps transfer it to some other template. Either way, it doesn't need to affect versions of the item in other templates where it is used.