Meet the virtuoso

[Me Games Ma.3024]

To all the people complaining about the damage values:

 

I can not stress this enough:

I am certain that numbers will change. Right now the F1 hits for less than we all would expect but all in all the design choices on Virtuoso make it really easy to balance. There is no complicated mechanic to the class they'll have to look out for. The Dagger skills literally have 2 ways of balancing if design is not changed. Cooldown and damage values. They will eventually find the sweetspot as the does NOTHING else except for raw power damage.

 

Compare this to mirage or chrono where: Mirage has to have all ambushes balanced around 3 clones doing it. The profession mechanic is literally dodging which makes it extremely annoying to play against in all PvP modes and quite easy to perform in PvE since you'll have a dodge for every mechanic they'll throw at you.

Chronomancer is just as hard to balance - every skill has to be in line with CS.

"Want to have the ability to double all your skills? -- Granted! -- We'll have to half all your skills effects so you are not too strong." 

 

Core mesmer has suffered from this for ages and now they introduce the new guy, Virtuoso. Very linear design, and very simple gameplay. It takes everything down to a matter of numbers. No need to balance the dagger with clones because there are no clones! The only balance they'll have to find on Virtuoso are the numbers.

 

Players will figure out the best way to play the class and the devs will watch and adjust the numbers.

[Levetty.1279]

2 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

I am certain that numbers will change.

 

They already have changed, they nerfed them between the reveal and the trait reveal.

[Me Games Ma.3024]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

They already have changed, they nerfed them between the reveal and the trait reveal.

And you expect that to be final? Sorry this is a poor argument. This is still going to be a BETA - meaning this is still in development - things are bound to change pre release. Especially on their test clients.

[Tseison.4659]

8 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

And you expect that to be final? Sorry this is a poor argument. This is still going to be a BETA - meaning this is still in development - things are bound to change pre release. Especially on their test clients.

This is correct because we still have to go through the other 6 elite specs and trial them through BETA. I'm sure they'll have to gather all the feedback from each BETA event and then the few months they have inbetween before release they'll "properly" balance everything (hopefully).

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, Tseison.4659 said:

This is correct because we still have to go through the other 6 elite specs and trial them through BETA. I'm sure they'll have to gather all the feedback from each BETA event and then the few months they have inbetween before release they'll "properly" balance everything (hopefully).

This is too optimistic when one talks about Mesmer. Nothing about Mesmer has been "proper" for a year. 

[Tseison.4659]

13 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

This is too optimistic when one talks about Mesmer. Nothing about Mesmer has been "proper" for a year. 

Yeah well I'm exhausted from having to think otherwise and not everyone wants to be the bearer of bad news and negativity...

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

And you expect that to be final? Sorry this is a poor argument. This is still going to be a BETA - meaning this is still in development - things are bound to change pre release. Especially on their test clients.

A 5 blade shatter does less damage then a 2 clone shatter. You would have a point if they were just dumping this on live servers but if this is their 'straight forward Mesmer that can do high damage without having to balance other mechanics' why during a beta would the damage ever be lower then core Mesmer? What are they testing there?

 

Why can other classes have unique mechanics on  their dps spec but Mesmer can't have anything?

 

Why did they give it a 1200 range weapon which they will never make do as much damage as a Melee weapon?

[Nezekan.2671]

Just now, Tseison.4659 said:

Yeah well I'm exhausted from having to think otherwise and not everyone wants to be the bearer of bad news and negativity...

I tried to be positive, but when blanket mesmer nerfs became the most common occurrence on patch notes I just couldn't anymore. We don't get tweaked, we get gutted and forgotten. Blanket nerfs with nothing to compensate. Given how Necromancer and Guardian dominated all game modes in PoF and looking at what they revealed for them in EoD compared to Mesmer is just ridiculous. I am aware other classes also suck, but we are in a Mesmer section and we've struggling for a long time and Virtuoso does not provide hope in any shape or form. Look at the mesmer section of the forums, its all negative and hopelessness and I don't blame them. Now and then you see some copium posts , which are usually new people or people who don't generally engage in end game content. Mesmer is actually pretty strong in open world pve, which is what most people do anyway.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

A 5 blade shatter does less damage then a 2 clone shatter. You would have a point if they were just dumping this on live servers but if this is their 'straight forward Mesmer that can do high damage without having to balance other mechanics' why during a beta would the damage ever be lower then core Mesmer? What are they testing there?

 

Why can other classes have unique mechanics on  their dps spec but Mesmer can't have anything?

 

Why did they give it a 1200 range weapon which they will never make do as much damage as a Melee weapon?

You know what pisses me off?
As usual they crippled mechanics and put the bandaids on traits.
3/4 sec cast F1 making the quickness trait mandatory in competitive settings.

Same thing they did with mirage, give trash ambushes and if you want to have actually usable ones you have to trait IH.

[Nezekan.2671]

1 minute ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You know what pisses me off?
As usual they crippled mechanics and put the bandaids on traits.
3/4 sec cast F1 making the quickness trait mandatory in competitive settings.

Same thing they did with mirage, give trash ambushes and if you want to have actually usable ones you have to trait IH.

Hah! And then nerf your dodge because of IH. Typical Anet lmao.

[Levetty.1279]

3 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You know what pisses me off?
As usual they crippled mechanics and put the bandaids on traits.
3/4 sec cast F1 making the quickness trait mandatory in competitive settings.

Same thing they did with mirage, give trash ambushes and if you want to have actually usable ones you have to trait IH.

The worse is the bleed trait which is what the duelling trait should do if blades are supposed to be the replacement for clones. Instead they just removed clones and gave us nothing instead.

[Nezekan.2671]

9 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

The worse is the bleed trait which is what the duelling trait should do if blades are supposed to be the replacement for clones. Instead they just removed clones and gave us nothing instead.

The clone distraction is half of our survivability. Not only we lose that, we lose distortion too. Its just unacceptable.

[Me Games Ma.3024]

My whole point is that before getting our hands on the spec we should limit our feedback to design, not numbers.

 

I'm also super pessimistic about the virtuoso which is why I try to give feedback that is as relevant as possible, hoping it matters :)

[phokus.8934]

41 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

My whole point is that before getting our hands on the spec we should limit our feedback to design, not numbers.

 

I'm also super pessimistic about the virtuoso which is why I try to give feedback that is as relevant as possible, hoping it matters 🙂

Feedback needs to be all encompassing.  If the shatters are subpar damage wise then they need to have that feedback from the end-users.

[Infusion.7149]

When the entire spec has less than 1K tooltips it's not looking good thus far. Blades will still require a ramp up and possibly will be affected by projectile destruction ; the only skill with a large damage output is the elite Thousand Cuts which is a line attack.

 

In competitive you won't have clones so it's easier to be focused and I don't see anything that is able to deal with that very well (bladeturn refrain applying aegis means you are reliant on blades to "shatter"). You have block/distortion (bladeturn requiem) and blade renewal which is 60s cooldown presumably in PVE.

[Me Games Ma.3024]

21 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Feedback needs to be all encompassing.  If the shatters are subpar damage wise then they need to have that feedback from the end-users.

Maybe I didn't express my intentions well enough. What I meant is not "Don't give them feedback for the numbers at all" but "Give them feedbacks on the numbers once you got to test it".
For now all we can do is theory craft and give our opinions on what they showed us.

All I see is "Numbers aren't big enough" while very few people give reasonable feedback on the design of the spec

[Me Games Ma.3024]

Another point I'd like to critique on Virtuoso is the F2 ability:

From what we've seen condition Virtuoso is all about bleeds but this skill still influcts confusion? If there was any spot in the Virtuoso's design I would have loved this skill to inflict bleeding instead of confusion! We're trading away trickery for blades, aren't we?

[AXLIB.8425]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Is that really such a problem? There are only so many roles in the game, and not every elite spec can be something revolutionary. Dealing with large numbers of enemies has been a weakness of mesmer pretty much since clone death traits were nixed (with chronomancer and certain mirage builds being a bit better, but only so much) - I don't think it's a bad thing to have an elite specialisation that provides a suitable option for those situations just because it's something that other professions can do. There are already story instances that are harder to do with mesmer than with other professions because those instances assume you have means to take down a lot of enemies at once and, well, mesmer.

the job of elite is to provide new way to play or new role to fulfil, and you said there are so many roles in the game and not every elite spec can be revolutionary, and I agree. but virtuoso doesn't do either of them well, in pve you still have the same game play of ramp up your ammo then press f1 or f2 depending of power or condi, and use phantasm while you are doing it. removal of clone doesn't achieve anything major, it won't help make new player understand mesmer better because you damage will still be tied to your ammo and phantasm, and you also lost the clone that can be a distraction for you in certain places.

 

When it comes to roles, looking at traits and new shatters, virtuoso is focused on power damage, which is already a role mesmer has with chrono, and it is not like mesmer don't have new roles to fill, defensive support mesmer is still the a sorry state of existence. 

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think that Virtuoso is explicitly made to help people learn mesmer, but instead to provide a different way of playing mesmer - however, it just so happens that this different way involves making it a bit more like other professions in terms of what it takes to understand how to play it rather than having its own unique complications like core mesmer does. The analogy I made earlier was with Tempest - it's designed to reward a playstyle that stays in one attunement for quite a bit longer than the experienced elementalist players did at the time. Which the experienced elementalist players complained about because it wasn't enhancing their playstyle, but it did offer new options and, incidentally, it helped other players get into the profession.

So you're thinking purely through a competitive lens? That's your prerogative, but it doesn't mean that it's the only lens to look at. Making something better in a mode you don't play is still a valid choice for ArenaNet to make. And even then, while I don't play in WvW zergs myself, I do keep hearing about how clones are basically worthless there, so maybe that's what Virtuoso is intended to address? Take away the clones, give it extra area damage, and it starts looking a lot better off in that environment.

i don't think just because there are good cleave on the optional thing virtuoso brings, dagger and 3 utilities, virtuoso is intended for wvw zerg, simply because everything on virtuoso is projectile and that means you won't be able to do a thing in zerg play with how many reflect and projectile block there are. and unlike other projectile heavy class like ranger, virtuoso don't have access to any form of unlockable. it is also weird that if virtuoso is meant to fulfil the role of power aoe cleaver like you suggested, and f skills (the new f skills are actually worth than core when it comes to aoe damage) and trait does not reflect that what-so-ever, which in my opinion, is more important thing to like at then weapon skills and utility skills. 

[AXLIB.8425]

11 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

Another point I'd like to critique on Virtuoso is the F2 ability:

From what we've seen condition Virtuoso is all about bleeds but this skill still influcts confusion? If there was any spot in the Virtuoso's design I would have loved this skill to inflict bleeding instead of confusion! We're trading away trickery for blades, aren't we?

I think the entire condi trait line and f2 are completely wasted, and is holding virtuoso back. f2 could be something cool like does good power damage, and instantly trigger all the condi you inflicted, maybe in pvp and wvw make it condi do half of the damage to balance it. So it still have the f2 being condi thing, but actually not wasted on power as you will always have bleed stack with duelling 

Edited August 15, 2021 by AXLIB.8425

[Nezekan.2671]

2 minutes ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

the job of elite is to provide new way to play or new role to fulfil, and you said there are so many roles in the game and not every elite spec can be revolutionary, and I agree. but virtuoso doesn't do either of them well, in pve you still have the same game play of ramp up your ammo then press f1 or f2 depending of power or condi, and use phantasm while you are doing it. removal of clone doesn't achieve anything major, it won't help make new player understand mesmer better because you damage will still be tied to your ammo and phantasm, and you also lost the clone that can be a distraction for you in certain places.

 

When it comes to roles, looking at traits and new shatters, virtuoso is focused on power damage, which is already a role mesmer has with chrono, and it is not like mesmer don't have new roles to fill, defensive support mesmer is still the a sorry state of existence. 

i don't think just because there are good cleave on the optional thing virtuoso brings, dagger and 3 utilities, virtuoso is intended for wvw zerg, simply because everything on virtuoso is projectile and that means you won't be able to do a thing in zerg play with how many reflect and projectile block there are. and unlike other projectile heavy class like ranger, virtuoso don't have access to any form of unlockable. it is also weird that if virtuoso is meant to fulfil the role of power aoe cleaver like you suggested, and f skills (the new f skills are actually worth than core when it comes to aoe damage) and trait does not reflect that what-so-ever, which in my opinion, is more important thing to like at then weapon skills and utility skills. 

You know what's funny? Mirage with greatsword is actually very good at solo content and obliterating several units at once, all thanks to greatsword ambush spam. It does it way better than Chrono, who is supposedly a power build. Mirage power is actually revolutionary in terms of solo pve content. You can really emphasize on dodging and basically be in mirage cloak a good chunk of time you are in battle. In fact looking at Virtuoso, I think power mirage will be better than it in solo pve as well and Virtuoso power builds will be focused on organized pve or pvp.

[Levetty.1279]

3 hours ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

Maybe I didn't express my intentions well enough. What I meant is not "Don't give them feedback for the numbers at all" but "Give them feedbacks on the numbers once you got to test it".
For now all we can do is theory craft and give our opinions on what they showed us.

All I see is "Numbers aren't big enough" while very few people give reasonable feedback on the design of the spec

Multiple people testing it won't suddenly make the skills do more damage then they are showing off, Virtuoso doing damage won't fix the design of the class and multiple people are pointing out design flaws.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

Maybe I didn't express my intentions well enough. What I meant is not "Don't give them feedback for the numbers at all" but "Give them feedbacks on the numbers once you got to test it".
For now all we can do is theory craft and give our opinions on what they showed us.

All I see is "Numbers aren't big enough" while very few people give reasonable feedback on the design of the spec

Multiple feedbacks were made back with mirage cloak and look where that ended up, having 1 second back then was way too strong and it ended up getting gutted to 1 dodge.

 

Feedbacks wont change their minds in giving Virtuoso new mechanics the only thing that there is left is tweak numbers here and there for dmg. 

 

Feedbacks wont change their minds in giving Virtuoso actual utilities that will not be comparable to weapon AoE skills or a Elite that means something, just look at Harbinger and Willbender. 

 

Back when people were saying Virtuoso was underwhelming you had the white knights say oh you haven't seen the traits yet, now the traits are out and granted I'm pretty sure those white knights got slapped in the face pretty hard they are still defending and hoping the devs will actually listen to feedbacks from players after the person who literally showcased Virtuoso was laughing at the Mirage nerf and was saying traits were too strong and needed nerf. They knew what they were doing and how that dodge nerf will massively nerf the spec overall.

Jazz was in a podcast with the people that work there and they still failed to listen to a competitive mesmer main on what needs to be changed.

 

Nothing about Virtuoso is new and its just skills reskinned with flashy effects to make it seem like its new mechanic. I guess most of the real mesmer mains have already left the game or re-rolled another class and never looked back.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Levetty.1279]

Speaking of mechanics feedback. Twice we have proved to Anet that we need Ilusionary Persona baseline for shatters to actually work and yet in the shatter focused espec they are once again removing it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

37 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Speaking of mechanics feedback. Twice we have proved to Anet that we need Ilusionary Persona baseline for shatters to actually work and yet in the shatter focused espec they are once again removing it.

Guess they didnt learn their lesson when removing Illusionary Persona from Chronomancers only to add it back and remove distortion. Its like we are giving you back something you need but also removing something else you need because we think its fair.

[JazzXman.7018]

copy my feedback since this is an anet generated thread maybe will be read more likely and sry its not positive, that makes me sad too, since chrono and mirage were pretty hype back then (and i mean the not broken and more skilled builds).

 

But: you want to play another class/profession mechanically? fine there are 8 others you can choose from. engi has 4 f-skills as well need to be casted. if you like an easier way of setup requirement than clones, then you can try rev or necro or warrior since energy, adrenalin and shroud mechanic are clearly more near to the blade/songs mechanic than the origin instant shatter/ clone mechanic ever will be, and which makes mesmer a mesmer. if you want to play without initiative and any form of steal then swap away from thief. simple as it is. elite specs never were a totally new profession until virtuoso and outside of virtuoso. every other elite spec just adds a different mechanic while keeping the basic core class defining mechanics/ core class identity alive. Virtuoso doesnt.

 

 

ofc elite specs also should feel different (like there are a lot of thief player saying that they dont count deadeye as thief bc it is so different, but in the end mechanically it is still a thief since it kept the class defining mechanics/the class identity alive, which are initiative and a steal, while it doesnt matter if the steal is porting to a target or if it is a range skill for that matter).

 

 

so for mesmer that means they could change what shatters do when you use them, not f1=power dmg, f2=confusion/lower pdmg, f3=daze, f4= defensive. they could become more creative here and they can add other mechanics on traits (funny that virtuoso traits dont offer anything new mechanically, they are also just uncreative mostly passive dmg mulitplier and some defensive that is also not new in any way, shape or form) and they also can add new mechanics on other skill slots (like they did with ambushes on auto attack and even add another f5 shatter) but that shatters are instant and linked to illusions (esp copies from the players character rly living on the battlefield, which have to move and have to be placed/ positioned well and created/spawned with good timing to stay alive etc.) to balance the strong instant shatter nature out and make the setup requirement as unique as it was on mes (and what makes mes a mes in its uniqueness) rly needs to stay. everything else? change it as much as you want. if i will like it or not, i then never would say its not a mesmer anymore.

 

 

the recycler (=the virtuoso) lit only downgrates shatters (overnerf them lit, deleting instant nature while keeping the setup-need in a dumbed down version alive which was there to balance out the strong instant shatter nature) while only recycling old mechanics from other classes (the new blade/song setup is more near to war adrenalin , necro lf/shroud mechanic and even rev energy system than classic shattermes), it only copies old core traits from mes and other classes, mostly adds uncreative passive dmg mulitplier traits and old skills from other classes just with different animation and on different skill-slots. so its not a mesmer anymore but in the end still doesnt add anything new mechanically.

 

 

it feels like they wanted to make the game even more casual friendly and easier and mesmer was always complained about from casual ppl not willing to invest some time to understand the class with the less mainstream and more complex and high iq mechanics, so they would know how to play it and how to play against it better. crying on forum/ discord and asking for nerfs or a deletion of the class is always the best counter to a noobstomper like mes right?

 

 

that the recycler profession is super projectile based after we were asking for less projectile stuff (also on mantras with the face your target nonsense) when anet isnt able to fix all the miss miss miss, obstructed, no line of sight bugs is another kick in the face for mesmer player. zero condiremove, zero mobility and no at least semi defensive skill on the spec weapon is another kick in the face (and forces player to spec more into passive or spammable non reactive sustain from inspi or chaos). that the profession mechanics (crippled shatters and dumbed down setup mechanic) are so bad that you lit need to spec into a braindead and unhealthy/ obnoxious traitline like inspi (maybe chaos but prob inspi too mandadory) and mostly only can play it as boring and low iq, low skill requirement side node bunker is super meeeh as well. no illusionary persona is another kick in the face but in the end that doesnt rly matter anymore for casttime shatters...

 

 

thats my feedback as far as it can be for now, based on its general basic mechanics. beta will enable some more details about specific skills/ traits but what i said is pretty much already obvious and doesnt need an ingame gameplay test to be noticed.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by JazzXman.7018